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Topic: Lame's future after --alt-presets (Read 25857 times) previous topic - next topic
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Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #50 –
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If you needed help, why didn't you ask for help? You know e-mail adresses of LAME devs, there are mailing lists...

I really hope this is a joke.

First you say I haven't made use of my development status.  Then you imply that I didn't ask anyone.  I can't tell you how wrong you are on both of those accounts.

I've discussed many, many issues in the past with Robert, Takehiro, Naoki and others.  I've discussed many of my ideas on the mailing list before in the past also.  Just about any remotely active LAME developer should be familiar with at least some of the stuff I've mentioned.  Of those 3 specific developers I've mentioned above, I have explicitly asked for help more times than I can count (sometimes I got help, but more often than not, the problems I reported were ignored or put off for quite some time).

Just to give you an example... many of the problems Takehiro has fixed in 3.94 are problems that I've reported over a year ago and asked some of the developers if they could help fix for me.  A year later we are just now seeing some (not all) of those issues being addressed.

Please, if you're going to make statements about my involvement with LAME (presumably to cast doubt on my actions), I suggest you do a little more research first.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #51 –
Your last mail on lame-dev is from december last year, isn't it? I can't remember your last post on mp3encoder.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #52 –
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Your last mail on lame-dev is from december last year, isn't it?

Sure.

What does that mean?  Does it mean that I haven't been in contact with the LAME developers who work on the psymodel since then?  No.

Just because I haven't posted to the lame-dev with every single issue that has come up doesn't mean that I haven't been discussing them with the only people who were in the position to do anything about it.

Oh, and the reason I stopped posting on the LAME dev is because it didn't seem to do any good regarding the issues I had brought up (there was constant disagreement, etc).  Furthermore, I was flamed for the 3.90.2 release which I felt was critical.  I decided it wasn't worth the hassle arguing with Alexander, JD, and mitiok, (who took the time to bitch at me over an issue as trivial as an "unofficial" release, rather than working on fixing the psymodel, making LAME easier to use, or doing anything else constructive) and that instead I'd rather contact Robert, Naoki, and (sometimes) Takehiro directly -- I'd rather be doing work than arguing with people who didn't seem to comprehend the importance of the basic issues at hand (and still don't I gather).  In the end, that didn't really make all that much difference either though.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #53 –
As a total outsider who's seen situations like this many times before, a suggestion: perhaps it's time for a split. rather than just one person leaving the dev group.

Time to form an alliance of a few people to branch-off instead of just losing *one* valuable resource and all the good ideas that come with. Poll some devs. If they're all too laid-back or busy with life to care, okay. But if even just a couple of them agree to a new effort, along with some possible new blood hell, anything could happen.

Keep the ideas alive - where there's a will and all that.

Otherwise, such a waste! And we the users all lose. These splendid presets, Dibrom's under-rated but universally-appreciated interfaces with John Q, us, and his grasp of what people want and can use. Not mere sophistry but a get down and do it attitude.

Rule by either committee or chaos doesn't work in the long run, so I urge Dibrom to push, and others in the dev community to ally themselves with his views *if* they agree, rather than just laying there feeling important. Nex

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #54 –
It seems that I've been misunderstood (or that I mis-explained). I pointed that some users here only want a new front-end, because some always go back to the argument that alt-presets are not defaulted, and that there is still this too long list of available switches available. This particular point means that what those users want is a different front-end (perhaps linked with 3.91 libmp3lame).

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #55 –
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It seems that I've been misunderstood (or that I mis-explained). I pointed that some users here only want a new front-end, because some always go back to the argument that alt-presets are not defaulted, and that there is still this too long list of available switches available. This particular point means that what those users want is a different front-end (perhaps linked with 3.91 libmp3lame).

I think this is missing the point.  The fact that the --alt-presets are not defaulted is only a smaller part of a much larger problem.  Focusing on that issue alone is, as I said, missing the point.  People here don't so much want a new frontend as they want a new attitude from the development team which would naturally lead to this course of action on it's own.  At least that's how I feel, and I gather that's how most of the other people you were referring to do as well.

My previous response directly to this matter that you raised should make at least my stance clear.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #56 –
So why are there people claiming that your work on alt-presets is totally ignored? Other than the fact it's not defaulted, I do not understand what they would want. The alt-presets are not alternative anymore, they are pushed by the documentation, and the former presets are gone...

Perhaps those people are only a minority and I mainly remember those posts because some where including harsh comments. (yes, it seems that unfortunately I remember more easily harsh comments)

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #57 –
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So why are there people claiming that your work on alt-presets is totally ignored? Other than the fact it's not defaulted, I do not understand what they would want. The alt-presets are not alternative anymore, they are pushed by the documentation, and the former presets are gone...


I don't think it'd be unfair to say that the effort behind the presets was mostly ignored by the developers (if you feel otherwise, can you show this somehow?).  After I initially created the presets, I didn't really get any help improving the remaining issues until a year later.  There seemed to be little interest overall into furthering this type of development.  Also, the alt-presets where just one part of an initiative which was a larger part of my "work".  That work was largely ignored and sometimes actively denied.  As for the rest, you'll need to be more specific I'm afraid.

Btw, as to "what they would want", once again, I think they would want the presets and what they represent to be continued in spirit by more people on the LAME development team.  Once again, this goes back to the same thing I've been saying over and over and over (read my previous post to this again).

I think the fact that you are asking this also points again to the fundamental misunderstanding of the problem which I have already mentioned elsewhere.  The real problem seems to be that the LAME developers don't think that there actually is a problem.... or they misinterpret it as something else (frontend, or windows users clamoring for more features, etc), missing the point.  Wasn't 3.93 evidence enough that something is wrong?

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Perhaps those people are only a minority and I mainly remember those posts because some where including harsh comments. (yes, it seems that unfortunately I remember more easily harsh comments)


Maybe so, but you need to be specific if you want a meaningful response.  Most of the examples I've given have been backed up with events that have transpired, etc.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #58 –
Quote
People here don't so much want a new frontend as they want a new attitude from the development team which would naturally lead to this course of action on it's own.

I don't know about the others but I've given up on the development team, and just want the new frontend...

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #59 –
Gabriel,

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So why are there people claiming that your work on alt-presets is totally ignored?


If a new version comes out that trashes the output of --alt-presets, I would call that total ignorance.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #60 –
I would rather call this lack of testing.
This is, to my mind, due to two reasons:
*lack of time/ressources
*some people not willing to test because they only wanted to test something really new

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #61 –
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I would rather call this lack of testing.
This is, to my mind, due to two reasons:
*lack of time/ressources
*some people not willing to test because they only wanted to test something really new

I would call this either lack of planning or lack of interest in having it being tested.
This is obvious from the fact that there was no 3.93beta.
There was nothing to test.

And please, no excuses about "it's always been in CVS for anyone to check out, compile and test". You know this is not the way things work

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #62 –
Quote
I would rather call this lack of testing.
This is, to my mind, due to two reasons:
*lack of time/ressources
*some people not willing to test because they only wanted to test something really new

And IIRC it was you who voted for more frequent releases of LAME versions with minor changes. This won't make the situation easier then. In consequence, add lack of time/resources to that. Would not be a valid point anymore if you changed your opinion here to release really stable versions instead (what may take its time).

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #63 –
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So why are there people claiming that your work on alt-presets is totally ignored? Other than the fact it's not defaulted, I do not understand what they would want. The alt-presets are not alternative anymore, they are pushed by the documentation, and the former presets are gone...

Perhaps those people are only a minority and I mainly remember those posts because some where including harsh comments. (yes, it seems that unfortunately I remember more easily harsh comments)

I apologize if my comments came off as harsh. However, there really isn't a nice way to say it. Lame developement lacks focus. Unless acheiving and maintaining superior sound quality gets MADE the top priority, ANY OTHER developement efforts such as new/different platforms are UTTERLY POINTLESS. What good is a *nix version that makes inferior sounding files? Why not just port Blade?

As for the way Dibrom's efforts and suggestions were received, I got the distinct impression that the Lame developers wished he would just GO AWAY. Unfortunaltely for end users, it seems they got their wish.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #64 –
Imo it does no good to rant here how wrong and awful everything is. I think the points have been made and everybody can read the comments from several threads. Imo it would be now more important to concentrate on what concrete people can do in order to make the situation better.
If some people are not willing to do anything, more ranting doesn't help the situation one bit, instead only make it worse, like I start to see is happening considering Takehiro's comments in the lame-dev mailing list...
Juha Laaksonheimo

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #65 –
No Ogg hardware support yet. Definitely no MPC hardware support. Hard drives not cheap enough to encode 1000 CD's in lossless format.

And now it would seem that the MP3 format is as good as it's ever going to get.

Hmmmm....

Conclusion, this sucks.

Thank you LAME developers for giving us a better choice than Xing. And thank you Dibrom for all of your effort.

Too bad it's all coming to an end.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #66 –
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If some people are not willing to do anything, more ranting doesn't help the situation one bit, instead only make it worse, like I start to see is happening considering Takehiro's comments in the lame-dev mailing list...

I agree, it's beginning to get heavy.
Lame devs this way... Lame devs that way... Why not rather see how to program Lame ? Is the source code difficult to understand ? Are there some docs about the physics needed to understand how it works ?
This way, anyone wanting to improve it and having the time to, can start studying the code. That's why it is "open", after all.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #67 –
Quote
Quote
If some people are not willing to do anything, more ranting doesn't help the situation one bit, instead only make it worse, like I start to see is happening considering Takehiro's comments in the lame-dev mailing list...

I agree, it's beginning to get heavy.
Lame devs this way... Lame devs that way... Why not rather see how to program Lame ? Is the source code difficult to understand ? Are there some docs about the physics needed to understand how it works ?
This way, anyone wanting to improve it and having the time to, can start studying the code. That's why it is "open", after all.

I can't really speak for anyone else, but the reason I have made such an issue over all of this is because I don't understand the psymodel well enough to do it myself.  I did as much as I could on my own without really bugging the lame-devs.  As I've already said many times, beyond that, the alt-presets need to be focused on by someone who really understands the way the LAME psymodel works.  Takehiro was one of these people (Naoki was another, but he's no longer around for some other reason).  Unfortunately, for the alt-presets to really live up to their reputation, it takes a certain developmental style and attitude from people, and I don't think I've seen the LAME dev's willing to give this traditionally (I cite the year long wait and the bad 3.93 release as examples).

If people think I'm saying all of this just because I'm pissed off about something and just want to arbitrarily rant about stuff, well they are missing the point and it looks like further efforts to try and change the situation through debate and by increasing awareness will be futile.  Oh well...

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #68 –
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If people think I'm saying all of this just because I'm pissed off about something and just want to arbitrarily rant about stuff, well they are missing the point and it looks like further efforts to try and change the situation through debate and by increasing awareness will be futile.  Oh well...

I'm just saying that it's enough ranting now.. I don't think this kind of approach if continued, helps anymore. The points have been made. Continuing raising the awareness like this does no good anymore, since it would be just repeating the same old things..

Changing the situation needs a different approach now imo..
Juha Laaksonheimo

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #69 –
Open letter to the lame developers (if they read):

This forum (the people runnig it and the people reading it) is the place where your elite work on the lame encoder can be verified regarding quality.

USE it !

It won't do your work any harm if you came here from time to time and say 'Hey, there's a new candidate out for testing at [some URL]. We give you [a time period] to test it thoroughly.'

We would all appreciate this a lot and there are surely enough enthusiasts around to do the testing. If you really don't like this place (Quote: 'HA is rude'), set up your own (I could do this for you....).

This goes out as a plead to not let the good course lame has taken be deviated.
sic transit gloria mundi...

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #70 –
First, deep thanks for the work that has been done so far.

Second, it's valuable to have places where the bleeding edge can be tested.  But in a way that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Don't lose sight of the importance of having tools that (also) work for a wide audience, (the rest of the iceberg).  The presets, especially aps, have made all the difference there.

Also please don't lose sight of the reality of the world out there - people who are still using the 2 year old Blade encoder that comes bundled with mkwACT, or the jukebox they installed a year ago.  Or sharing lots of mp3s they created with those encoders.  They are churning out a lot a bad mp3s.  The presets are what finally is making a dent in that.

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #71 –
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I agree, it's beginning to get heavy.
Lame devs this way... Lame devs that way... Why not rather see how to program Lame ? Is the source code difficult to understand ? Are there some docs about the physics needed to understand how it works ?

This way, anyone wanting to improve it and having the time to, can start studying the code. That's why it is "open", after all.

Amen!

*coughs* Now, where can I find docs like these aimed at a geek who's willing to learn, but not a sound engineer yet?

*runs off to download some dev tools and take a look at Lame*

Edit:
Is all the documentation needed available at the Lame site?

And what's a recommended free compiler for Win32?

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #72 –
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And what's a recommended free compiler for Win32?

MinGW32 available at http://www.mingw.org

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #73 –
I'm very sorry for Dibrom. Many many ppl use the --alt-presets for their encodings, a shame to hear that they aren't really accepted by the lame devs.
Although I switched over to the MPC camp recently  , I would like to see lame become a lot easier to use (like oggenc), with only a few quality modes for VBR, and getting rid of the bazillion of psymodels and god-knows-what other switches there are.

Just my 2c

Oh and of course thanks to all who work (or worked) on open source projects like LAME. I have the pleasure to work on one myself right now (eMule), and god knows it's not always a rewarding job
 

Lame's future after --alt-presets

Reply #74 –
Friends- As an "amateur" user of LAME and the alt-presets, I'm very grateful for all that all of you have done to build and easy to use, effective encoder, share it with us as freeware. I'm also very grateful to be able to learn from all of your invested time and passion and have well-thought out alt-presets.  For all of your struggle and conflict, you've produced great benefits for many around the world, and we thank you!

A thought on future directions: Perhaps there are several major subjects of interest that our highly skilled developers and contributors could "cluster" around according to their interests to continue evolving the functionality and presets. It's extraordinary how much you've accomplished in the loosely affilated network to date. Perhaps an approach of using "magnet" projects, perhaps 2-4, around which you could connect more closely, would be helpful. I work in a religiousministry organization with a far-flung worldwide network, and we have found that clustering teams around specific projects and tasks has been very helpful.

Wherever you as a community go with this, thanks again for your gifts to us end-users. And peace to your house in this holiday season.