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Topic: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz (Read 5026 times) previous topic - next topic
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Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Hi all,

when I buy music, I normally go to Qobuz, and get the album I want there. Once, I did (originally just for fun) try to verify the AR data of one of my Qobuz-Purchased albums and I realized that AccurateRip (used via CueTools) actually found the ToC, but resulted in 0 matches for all tracks.

So, from my understanding of AR, this means, that the audio data is not identical to that, which is released on CD? Can this be true?

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #1 –
If it finds the correct CD but has 0 matches then it may be a watermarked version of the release. Check if the label of the music is related to UMG.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #2 –
Omg that's something I did not know about bevore :o

There are at least some albums from UMG which I bought - I think one of them was the one I checked with AR. I'm gonna do that again for the other releases I bought later to see what it says.

I guess I have to do some research abouth that watermarking. Until now I did not hear anything irritating when listening to the UMG related tracks. But knowing that they actually modify the original audio data makes me think - and maybe also biased :o

Any good discussion or online literature to read about watermarking that you could recommand? I will research for that later on.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #3 –
Start reading at https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,89818.0.html and the links therein.

UMG owns Decca and DG and EMI ... I have not seen information about watermarking physical CDs, so UMG are doing their very best to rip off their paying customers and encourage 3.14159rates.
Let's see ... how many EMI releases have I bought in any format since they started doing the pesky copy protection some fifteen years ago? I think I got Deep Purple: Bananas, Kraftwerk: Tour de France soundtrack, and Iron Maiden: AMOLD.  IIRC, the latter was a promo, and the others I didn't know were EMI (DP was on Sanctuary in the US). I own some seven thousand physical units (most are full-lengths), but I don't need to buy from Universal.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #4 –
This also may be interesting Oldfield watermarked at qobuz?
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #5 –
Wow

I'm not sure how I should think about that now. I just want to enjoy music but knowing that there could be audible watermarks in my tracks, decreases the joy..

Although I might (mostly) be unable to hear it, I am still biased now. So I guess the best thing could be going back to buying CDs, no matter which label is selling the music.

On the other hand I try to get the thinking in my head: just forget about that and concentrate on what's most important: the music. It's hard to get that thinking, there's a fight in my head and my heart.

Are there any improvements on watermarking technology over the past few years? I could imagine Universal now having eventually better algorithms for watermarking, so it could be *really* inaudible. I'm hoping that and if someone could help me find some more current information on that, it could really help me getting out of the struggle of bias.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #6 –
Most worrying is how it absurds the term lossless with your purchase.
I am not sure how good watermarking hides itself. Since it must survive even lossy coding i can't imagine it is a good thing.
I doubt i have much watermarked music but people that use lossy versions of their watermarked files may get audible problems more easy.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #8 –
At least you have two choices!

CD: intentionally crippled mastering
Download: bloated hi-rez files with better mastering + potential watermark

https://www.rrrather.com/view/5962

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #9 –
UMG doesn't use different mastering for their watermarked stuff. I am completely boycotting UMG content because of this reason. It defeats the whole purpose of offering your content in lossless form. Go unwatermaked or go home period. No, it's not okay; never was, never will be.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: pmattke93 on
So I guess the best thing could be going back to buying CDs, no matter which label is selling the music.

What kind of music are you listening to?  (Ever been to Bandcamp?)
Yes I have, and I also already bought music of some artists there. You are right, if the artist I want to buy music of, is available on bandcamp this is a good alternative + I'm directly supporting the artist. But still, not every musician/band I listen to has their music available on a bandcamp page so this does not fully solve the problem. I mostly listen to nearly every style of rock music, no matter if alternative, punk, metal, pop rock etc etc... Also acoustic artists / singer-songwriter in my collection and a few soundtracks of movies I like.
Quote from: bennetng on
At least you have two choices!

CD: intentionally crippled mastering
Download: bloated hi-rez files with better mastering + potential watermark

https://www.rrrather.com/view/5962
What makes you claim that CDs have intentionally crippled mastering and why? If you are referring to the difference in resolution between CD (44,1/16) and HiRes downloads like 44,1/24 or 96/24 etc: I don't think I am one of those who can successfully pass an ABX test between a lossless file in CD format and a HiRes format. Well, I did not try it, but I would not call myself an audiophile. I can hardly differentiate between a lossless original and a lossy coded version of that, even with quality settings that for others is not transparent any more. And to be honest: I am happy that this is the case, because I am listening to music, and I always perfectly enjoyed it with my MP3 and Vorbis files coded from FLACs in CD quality (44,1/16). I don't feel any need to buy some HiRes files and even on qobuz, when I have the coice I would rather save a few € and buy the 44,1/16 version than buying an HiRes version which for me is audibly exactly the same.

So, my current feeling is that I would rather go with "good old" CDs ripped to my FLAC collection, than buying a lossless download, possibly infested with an audible watermark. But another alternative, referring to another thread that has been posted above, I think, could be to go to the store of UMG and buy music directly there, since it seemed like these versions aren't watermarked. Is that true, or have there also been watermarked files from that store?

As far as I understand, the watermark identifies the reseller which sold the music - so there is no reseller (and for that, also no watermark??) if bought directly at the label??

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #12 –
One more question: has there been found any volunteer that wrote a foobar2k plugin to detect watermarked files? I would also be very interested in that. Or is there any tool that can do this for a bunch of files or that could be called from a batch script?

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #13 –
Quote from: pmattke93 on
What makes you claim that CDs have intentionally crippled mastering and why?
Audible differences among different mastering techniques not necessarily happen among different formats, they can happen even if they are within the same format, like CD vs CD or mp3 vs mp3 with same encoding parameters. At the extreme side an inferior format can even outperform a superior format. For example this one:

https://youtu.be/DRyIACDCc1I

For more information read:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/sep/17/metallica.guitar.hero.loudness.war

If you ask why, I can think of several reasons:
1. Discourage people to buy CD since it is very difficult to make CD DRM-able.
2. Boost the sales of DRM-able formats like MQA or flac files with watermark.
3. Boost the sales of hi-res and DRM compatible audio hardware.
4. To win the loudness war.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #14 –
Quote from: pmattke93 on
But another alternative, referring to another thread that has been posted above, I think, could be to go to the store of UMG and buy music directly there, since it seemed like these versions aren't watermarked. Is that true, or have there also been watermarked files from that store?

As far as I understand, the watermark identifies the reseller which sold the music - so there is no reseller (and for that, also no watermark??) if bought directly at the label??

If that is a marketing strategy, then sure I am not going to pay for is success ...

But I wonder: do UMG downloads pass AccurateRip? Or is it so that once UMG knows who you are and can track the download directly to you, they settle for less audible watermarks?

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #15 –
Quote from: bennetng on
For example this one:

https://youtu.be/DRyIACDCc1I

For more information read:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/sep/17/metallica.guitar.hero.loudness.war

If you ask why, I can think of several reasons:
1. Discourage people to buy CD since it is very difficult to make CD DRM-able.
2. Boost the sales of DRM-able formats like MQA or flac files with watermark.
3. Boost the sales of hi-res and DRM compatible audio hardware.
4. To win the loudness war.

Well okay, I hear what you mean, but is it really the case that the CD version differs from the ones available in the download stores? I just had a quick listen into the previews of that album on qobuz, and (at least on cheap office headphones) it sounded also pretty distorted, just like the CD version against the GH version. Furthermore, after reading about this, it's no case of crippled mastering here, because it seems that the mastering engineer already got the tracks with that killer distortion. It's just logical that there is a differnce between a GH version of a song and the sold version - the GH version must be produced differently to focus the guitars for that game. Anyway - for me this is no proof that music will be mastered differently for download stores compared to CDs (but I will again listen to the qobuz previews of Death Magnetic later on...)
Quote from: Porcus on


Quote from: pmattke93 on
But another alternative, referring to another thread that has been posted above, I think, could be to go to the store of UMG and buy music directly there, since it seemed like these versions aren't watermarked. Is that true, or have there also been watermarked files from that store?

As far as I understand, the watermark identifies the reseller which sold the music - so there is no reseller (and for that, also no watermark??) if bought directly at the label??

If that is a marketing strategy, then sure I am not going to pay for is success ...

But I wonder: do UMG downloads pass AccurateRip? Or is it so that once UMG knows who you are and can track the download directly to you, they settle for less audible watermarks?

I agree that this would be a pretty nasty strategy. In my eyes, one more point for buying CDs in the future. Still, it would be interesting if someone who has bought an album on UMG store, could try to verify with AR.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #16 –
Quote from: pmattke93 on
Well okay, I hear what you mean, but is it really the case that the CD version differs from the ones available in the download stores? I just had a quick listen into the previews of that album on qobuz, and (at least on cheap office headphones) it sounded also pretty distorted, just like the CD version against the GH version. Furthermore, after reading about this, it's no case of crippled mastering here, because it seems that the mastering engineer already got the tracks with that killer distortion. It's just logical that there is a differnce between a GH version of a song and the sold version - the GH version must be produced differently to focus the guitars for that game. Anyway - for me this is no proof that music will be mastered differently for download stores compared to CDs (but I will again listen to the qobuz previews of Death Magnetic later on...)
Don't get me wrong. What I was talking about are not specific to qobuz, UMG or any company, just a remind that don't automatically assume things will sound the same just because the medium or format itself is capable of transparency.

Also, if you look at Wombat's post:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111198.0.html

Apart from the suspected watermark from 1-5kHz, there are also differences from 14-22kHz. I am not going to talk about the audibility of such differences because I don't have those songs, but such differences are totally avoidable with today's resampling technology.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #17 –
Quote from: bennetng on
Don't get me wrong. What I was talking about are not specific to qobuz, UMG or any company, just a remind that don't automatically assume things will sound the same just because the medium or format itself is capable of transparency.

Also, if you look at Wombat's post:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111198.0.html

Apart from the suspected watermark from 1-5kHz, there are also differences from 14-22kHz. I am not going to talk about the audibility of such differences because I don't have those songs, but such differences are totally avoidable with today's resampling technology.

Okay, now I got you and how your post was intended. For the High Frequency differences I must honestly say: I don't care. In my ears, these are not the frequencies where listening-joy or -pain comes from. If the sound lacks some High End, I just raise the 8 and 16 kHz EQ bands of my player a bit, or lower them. I'm fine with that :)

Another thing is, of course the watermark. I tried pull every EQ band down, except 1, 2 and 4 kHz, hoping that I could identify a watermark in my qobuz purchased albums. I'm not sure if this could help identifying a watermark. I thought it could, since less frequencies are covering the mid-range, where the watermark is expected. However, I was not able to hear anything suspicious in my case. Still I wanna check, what the difference is between my version, and the one which is sold on CD and could pass AR successfully. I know someone who I can borrow the CD version of, and I will rip that disc and see the diff between the qobuz and the CD version. Looking forward to share the result with you.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #18 –
Also, about the GH issue, since games and game consoles themselves are based on closed platforms, game developers can manipulate the audio level relationship between different songs in the way they like. Such a platform defeated the purpose of loudness war. Similar issues happened in the Japanese game series "The Idolm@ster" as well.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,109068.msg897122.html#msg897122

That's why in-game music have potential to sound better in terms of dynamic range, even though they are often stored as lossy formats.

Nowadays some broadcasting and streaming services use standards like ITU BS.1770 and EBU R128 to control the playback level, excessively loud songs will get punished by having their volume scaled down during playback, similar to ReplayGain enabled audio players.

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #19 –
Well, I got something interesting here. They seem not to do it for every album. I have these two albums from Qobuz, for which I also could get a CD which I ripped to compare the versions:
http://www.qobuz.com/de-de/album/half-hour-of-power-sum-41/0073145424192
http://www.qobuz.com/de-de/album/in-dieser-stadt-christina-sturmer/0060252703495

The Sum 41 Album contains the watermark. Listening to the diff between both versions reveals that. The album by Christina Stürmer however, seems to contain no watermark (or both CD and Qobuz version are watermarked, but I guess the watermark should be different in both versions then, so I should still be able to hear something in the diff). Still, the two versions are not bit identical, but at least they sound (to me) exactly identical. I don't know if that is maybe related to Universal Music Austria, under which the Stürmer-album is released under (maybe they just don't watermark??) but at least I can present an example, downloaded from Qobuz which seems to contain no watermark.

Still, I think I decided to go back to buying CDs in the future and ripping them into my FLAC collection, to be as watermark-proof as possible :)

Re: Why can't CUETools verify music purchased via Qobuz

Reply #20 –
I have a recent Deutsche Grammophon here as CD. Out of curiousity i did buy a single track of the 24/48 version at qobuz and there was no watermark involved. At other places people report DG watermarks. You see it is a gamble.
This was my last and only purchase i did there since i found out they sell watermarks and lied on me. All other labels should thank UMG for that.
Until i know for sure they end this practice i stream UMG albums i am interested in. Normaly this is 1 or 3 times. Most albums i streamed became uninteresting afterwards.
When they want to produce albums to get streamed 1 or 3 times so be it.

I only can imagine how a big disservice UMG has done to the complete download seller business with its strategy.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!