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Topic: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes) (Read 5138 times) previous topic - next topic
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newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Hello everybody,
As the title says, I'm new to this forum and man, am I glad that I found it before I sell my kidney and spend my money on placebophile equipment.
Unfortunately, I didn't know that there's a huge market on used equipment, so I ended buying a DAC/Amp combo brand new from massdrop. But to be honest, they're performers. I have the SMSL M8 and the Gustard H-10 with a modded fostex headphones.

so let me get right into it:

Q.1: Knowing that I don't have a balanced DAC, Does balanced audio sound better on the following two situations?
1-From the balanced DAC to my Gustard H-10 which is single-ended output for headphones but have both RCA input and 3-pins XLRs inputs ?
2-From the balanced DAC to this tiny low-power balanced amp, the SMSL  SAP-9

Here's the most inexpensive DAC options that I have:
A new (I couldn't find a deal on a used one:Little Dot DAC_I DAC-1 Digital to Analog Converter DAC
A used Matrix Mini-i 24bit/384kHz Dac/Amp
A used PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
A new HRT Music Streamer HD

Q.2: I understand that tube amps simply don't sound better. They sound different because they add harmonics or distortion that simply changes the sound. Here's my questions: is such a change immediately noticeable? If it is, please suggest one that is sub 700$ (brand new) that will decrease treble in general but especially for the HD800? Or should I simply get the HD800S?

Q.3: Does a passive switch box affect sound quality?

Thank you :D

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #1 –
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
Q.1: Knowing that I don't have a balanced DAC, Does balanced audio sound better on the following two situations?
1-From the balanced DAC to my Gustard H-10 which is single-ended output for headphones but have both RCA input and 3-pins XLRs inputs ?
2-From the balanced DAC to this tiny low-power balanced amp, the SMSL  SAP-9

Balanced audio signals are solely for noise rejection, they don't make a lick of difference when it comes to sound quality.

Unless you have something radiating significant noise into your signal cables, to the point where it's actually audible and not 100+dB down in the signal, balanced cables are completely unnecessary.

And if you actually have that problem, I would definitely fix the noise source first.

Quote
Q.2: I understand that tube amps simply don't sound better. They sound different because they add harmonics or distortion that simply changes the sound. Here's my questions: is such a change immediately noticeable? If it is, please suggest one that is sub 700$ (brand new) that will decrease treble in general but especially for the HD800? Or should I simply get the HD800S?

I wouldn't get a tube amp simply to EQ for a set of headphones. I would fix that with an actualy equalizer or buy a set of headphones that don't need EQ to sound the way you like them to sound.

Quote
Q.3: Does a passive switch box affect sound quality?

Generally no, unless it's broken.

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #2 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
Q.1: Knowing that I don't have a balanced DAC, Does balanced audio sound better on the following two situations?
1-From the balanced DAC to my Gustard H-10 which is single-ended output for headphones but have both RCA input and 3-pins XLRs inputs ?
2-From the balanced DAC to this tiny low-power balanced amp, the SMSL  SAP-9

Balanced audio signals are solely for noise rejection, they don't make a lick of difference when it comes to sound quality.

Unless you have something radiating significant noise into your signal cables, to the point where it's actually audible and not 100+dB down in the signal, balanced cables are completely unnecessary.

And if you actually have that problem, I would definitely fix the noise source first.

Quote
Q.2: I understand that tube amps simply don't sound better. They sound different because they add harmonics or distortion that simply changes the sound. Here's my questions: is such a change immediately noticeable? If it is, please suggest one that is sub 700$ (brand new) that will decrease treble in general but especially for the HD800? Or should I simply get the HD800S?

I wouldn't get a tube amp simply to EQ for a set of headphones. I would fix that with an actualy equalizer or buy a set of headphones that don't need EQ to sound the way you like them to sound.

Quote
Q.3: Does a passive switch box affect sound quality?

Generally no, unless it's broken.

Thank you very much for answering. About question 2, that also reminds me, does different designs of amps sound different (class A Class A\B ... etc)

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #3 –
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
... About question 2, that also reminds me, does different designs of amps sound different (class A Class A\B ... etc)

Class A, properly designed, will have less measurable distortion (primarily due to lack of crossover artifacts).  As for sound, though, very likely no difference unless overdriven.  All other advancements in amplifier design (Class B, D, H, etc.) were primarily implemented to improve efficiency, not sound quality; though if insufficient attention is paid to frequency response and distortion during the design phase, they could exhibit measurable differences too.  Audible?  Maybe on some demanding material, but again, likely not.  I have a Class D amp which doesn't measure particularly well at all, yet it sounds just fine in my small workroom system where it's not asked to drive a difficult load or play loudly.

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Nichttaub on
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
... About question 2, that also reminds me, does different designs of amps sound different (class A Class A\B ... etc)

Class A, properly designed, will have less measurable distortion (primarily due to lack of crossover artifacts).  As for sound, though, very likely no difference unless overdriven.  All other advancements in amplifier design (Class B, D, H, etc.) were primarily implemented to improve efficiency, not sound quality; though if insufficient attention is paid to frequency response and distortion during the design phase, they could exhibit measurable differences too.  Audible?  Maybe on some demanding material, but again, likely not.  I have a Class D amp which doesn't measure particularly well at all, yet it sounds just fine in my small workroom system where it's not asked to drive a difficult load or play loudly.

good to know, so basically all ss amps (excluding op amps) sounds very similar if they were designed probably and weren't overdriven. If that's the case, amps can't improve or worsen soundstage or imaging, am I correct?

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #5 –
Quote
If that's the case, amps can't improve or worsen soundstage or imaging, am I correct?
Correct.   "Soundstage" and the stereo image is an illusion in your head (since the sounds are only coming form left & right) and different listeners may experience it differently.   Some headphone amps have a blend control to get a more natural sound with headphones, and some listeners seem to get a better soundstage with different headphones.   I don't know what accounts for the perceived differences, but "soundstage" isn't something you can specify or quantitatively measure.      (To me, headphones always sound like headphones and I never hear a band on a stage.)

Quote
I understand that tube amps simply don't sound better. They sound different
It's possible to build a tube amp that's just as good as a solid state amp.    But, it's more expensive.     And IMO, the "sound" of a good tube amp shouldn't change or degrade if you swap tubes, or as the tubes age.    But, some tube amps are designed to sound different when tubes are swapped.  

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #6 –
As mentioned before, balanced audio is principally used because of its significantly greater hum & noise rejection.  However, most professional balanced audio implementations run at much lower impedances than consumer unbalanced systems.  Therefore you can run much longer cables without noticeable high frequency loss.  Not an issue for 5 or 10 feet, but I'd get concerned if the length is much more than 50 feet or so.  The actual length where unbalanced audio gets in HF trouble depends on the actual output impedance of the device driving the cable, the capacitance between conductors per unit length of the cable, and how much HF loss you can tolerate before it is noticeable or objectionable. 

The hum and noise rejection may be useful if your system has more than one ground system in its connection.  One common issue is a system with a TV receiver and cable box with a coax connection to cable TV, grounded (we hope) at the building entrance, and some equipment with a three prong grounded power cord grounded to the safety ground.  Differences of ground potential of a few millivolts can cause audible hum.  Balanced audio with good common mode rejection won't have this issue.

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #7 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
If that's the case, amps can't improve or worsen soundstage or imaging, am I correct?
Correct.  "Soundstage" and the stereo image is an illusion in your head (since the sounds are only coming form left & right) and different listeners may experience it differently.  Some headphone amps have a blend control to get a more natural sound with headphones, and some listeners seem to get a better soundstage with different headphones.  I don't know what accounts for the perceived differences, but "soundstage" isn't something you can specify or quantitatively measure.      (To me, headphones always sound like headphones and I never hear a band on a stage.)

I do agree that soundstage is sort of an illusion. I say "sort of" because it can be stronger or ruined (significantly lessened) depending on the driver design and placement. For me at least, Many headphones with angeled drivers emphasize such illusion.

As for imaging, it depends heavily on the quality of a track. But, different headphones does affect imaging, I don't how, but I would certainly love to know. I read impulse response (to my understanding, at least) have something to do with imaging but I could have misinterpret what I read since I'm not an acoustic/sound engineer.

Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
I understand that tube amps simply don't sound better. They sound different
It's possible to build a tube amp that's just as good as a solid state amp.    But, it's more expensive.    And IMO, the "sound" of a good tube amp shouldn't change or degrade if you swap tubes, or as the tubes age.    But, some tube amps are designed to sound different when tubes are swapped. 

Do you have a hands-on experience with a tube amp that increases the bass but decreases the treble that is sub 700$? I know that's a very specific need of mine, but I tried many EQ software solution and they're not very accurate or separate from Foobar.I'm also asking this because I tried the HD800 and they're truly what I consider "my endgame" which mean I won't spend another dime on Audio equipment, that is if it wasn't for their ear-bleed treble. It'll be a better investment for me to buy a used HD800 (I found offers from 700$ to 750$) with a sub 700$ tube amp than to buy a brand new HD800S for 1650$

Lastly, thank you  :) .

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #8 –
Quote from: schmidj on
As mentioned before, balanced audio is principally used because of its significantly greater hum & noise rejection.  However, most professional balanced audio implementations run at much lower impedances than consumer unbalanced systems.  Therefore you can run much longer cables without noticeable high frequency loss.  Not an issue for 5 or 10 feet, but I'd get concerned if the length is much more than 50 feet or so.  The actual length where unbalanced audio gets in HF trouble depends on the actual output impedance of the device driving the cable, the capacitance between conductors per unit length of the cable, and how much HF loss you can tolerate before it is noticeable or objectionable. 

The hum and noise rejection may be useful if your system has more than one ground system in its connection.  One common issue is a system with a TV receiver and cable box with a coax connection to cable TV, grounded (we hope) at the building entrance, and some equipment with a three prong grounded power cord grounded to the safety ground.  Differences of ground potential of a few millivolts can cause audible hum.  Balanced audio with good common mode rejection won't have this issue.

Thanks, another reason why I was asking about balanced audio because they simply have stronger connection so I thought I should ask if it there's audible difference, glad I did before burning money :)

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #9 –
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
About question 2, that also reminds me, does different designs of amps sound different (class A Class A\B ... etc)

I'm going to assume for the sake of  simplicity that the context of the question and therefore my answer is so-called linear amplifiers , not switchmode amplifiers (also sometimes called Class D).

Only class A and Class AB have the potential for low enough distortion to be useful for high quality audio.  Either can easily be designed and built to have low enough distortion to be totally free of audible distortion.

Crossover distortion was mentioned, but it is an artifact of Class B operation. The whole point of class AB is avodiing crossover distortion,  and it is generally successful when all the fgurative moving parts are properly combined.

As a general rule, the lower level signal processing stages of most audio gear are Class A, and only the final few stage(s) in the power amplifier are class AB. That is done for the sake of efficiency because the power levels in the early stages are not high enough for efficiency to matter.

The various letter designations relate to the percentage of the input signal over which all of the parts of the amplifier are passing current. Class a relates to 100% - current is passing through all of the parts all of the time. Class B relates to 50%, and the two halves of the cycle have to be precisely matched for low distortion. As a practical matter, exactly 50.000% is not the rule, and there is some amount of what is called crossover distortion, relating to the signal crossing over between the two halves of the circuit.

Class AB defines that current is flowing in all parts for slightly more than half of the input signal, with real world numbers being in the range of 51% to as high as 75% or more.  The difference between the actual percentage > 50 percent and 50.0 percent is a period of overlap, where the amplifier is effectively running in class A. Thus the class AB amplifier shifts rapidly between being effectively Class A and Class B as it amplifies the input signal.  During the period of overlap the amplifier's natural tendency is to have higher gain because both halves are working in parallel. This is called transconductance nonlinearity but it is small enough to be easily managed. 

Natural nonlinearities in a well-designed amplifier are relatively small and they are further and most significantly reduced by sacrificing the amplifiers naturally high gain for low distortion using degenerative or negative or inverse feedback.

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
About question 2, that also reminds me, does different designs of amps sound different (class A Class A\B ... etc)

I'm going to assume for the sake of  simplicity that the context of the question and therefore my answer is so-called linear amplifiers , not switchmode amplifiers (also sometimes called Class D).

Only class A and Class AB have the potential for low enough distortion to be useful for high quality audio.  Either can easily be designed and built to have low enough distortion to be totally free of audible distortion.

Crossover distortion was mentioned, but it is an artifact of Class B operation. The whole point of class AB is avodiing crossover distortion,  and it is generally successful when all the fgurative moving parts are properly combined.

As a general rule, the lower level signal processing stages of most audio gear are Class A, and only the final few stage(s) in the power amplifier are class AB. That is done for the sake of efficiency because the power levels in the early stages are not high enough for efficiency to matter.

The various letter designations relate to the percentage of the input signal over which all of the parts of the amplifier are passing current. Class a relates to 100% - current is passing through all of the parts all of the time. Class B relates to 50%, and the two halves of the cycle have to be precisely matched for low distortion. As a practical matter, exactly 50.000% is not the rule, and there is some amount of what is called crossover distortion, relating to the signal crossing over between the two halves of the circuit.

Class AB defines that current is flowing in all parts for slightly more than half of the input signal, with real world numbers being in the range of 51% to as high as 75% or more.  The difference between the actual percentage > 50 percent and 50.0 percent is a period of overlap, where the amplifier is effectively running in class A. Thus the class AB amplifier shifts rapidly between being effectively Class A and Class B as it amplifies the input signal.  During the period of overlap the amplifier's natural tendency is to have higher gain because both halves are working in parallel. This is called transconductance nonlinearity but it is small enough to be easily managed. 

Natural nonlinearities in a well-designed amplifier are relatively small and they are further and most significantly reduced by sacrificing the amplifiers naturally high gain for low distortion using degenerative or negative or inverse feedback.
Thank you for the useful information.

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #11 –
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
Do you have a hands-on experience with a tube amp that increases the bass but decreases the treble that is sub 700$?

The way of audio in general and tubed amps is that most increases or decreases in bass or treble aside from bass or treble controls (found on some cheaper tubed amps) are due to interactions with the loudspeaker impedance curves.

General wisdom is that for reasons of convenience (ideally every amplifier would be at its best, and bring out the best of every speaker)  it is best to design amplifiers that are only minimally affected by loudspeaker (or headphone) impedance curves, but this is not always so easily done with tubes. Most tubed amps have output transformers to match the impedance of the speaker to the output tubes, and this transformer unless exceptionally well overbuilt, introduces some distortion, frequency response variations, and inabilitiy to control loads of their own.

Quote
I know that's a very specific need of mine, but I tried many EQ software solution and they're not very accurate or separate from Foobar.

I sense the possibility that there may be a perception that equalization due to the inherent failings of some tubed amps has  some inherent or special or different from other forms of equalization.

This is not true.

In fact it is possible to use parametric equalization to compensate for the frequency aberrations of a tubed amp and restore ideal frequency response. that in DBTs are indistinguishable from ideal frequency response. We then invoke the rule of reciprocity and observe since we can undo the non-flat response tubed amp's  curve, the equalizer's response is the ideal reciprocal of the original non-flat curve, and they are for all practical purposes analogous.

If you wish for a powerful PC-based equalization software that is independent of FB2K, please investigate  the Equalizer APO feature of recent and current versions of Windows, and the convenient Peace interface for it: Peace APO  powerful and efficient equalizer for Windows



Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
Do you have a hands-on experience with a tube amp that increases the bass but decreases the treble that is sub 700$?
The way of audio in general and tubed amps is that most increases or decreases in bass or treble aside from bass or treble controls (found on some cheaper tubed amps) are due to interactions with the loudspeaker impedance curves.

General wisdom is that for reasons of convenience (ideally every amplifier would be at its best, and bring out the best of every speaker)  it is best to design amplifiers that are only minimally affected by loudspeaker (or headphone) impedance curves, but this is not always so easily done with tubes. Most tubed amps have output transformers to match the impedance of the speaker to the output tubes, and this transformer unless exceptionally well overbuilt, introduces some distortion, frequency response variations, and inabilitiy to control loads of their own.
Very insightful, thank you. But Assuming (conceptually that is) that my headphones and tubes amp are 100% matched in impedance curves, does that mean the transformer won't have to do anything and I'll be able to only hear the changes of what the output tubes will produce?

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: audioholicx8x on
I know that's a very specific need of mine, but I tried many EQ software solution and they're not very accurate or separate from Foobar.

I sense the possibility that there may be a perception that equalization due to the inherent failings of some tubed amps has  some inherent or special or different from other forms of equalization.

This is not true.

Actually, I never tried tube amp in any sort of a way, The main reason I ask about tube amps is that I always read about their ability to calm down the trebles of the HD800 on "audiophile" websites.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
In fact it is possible to use parametric equalization to compensate for the frequency aberrations of a tubed amp and restore ideal frequency response. that in DBTs are indistinguishable from ideal frequency response. We then invoke the rule of reciprocity and observe since we can undo the non-flat response tubed amp's  curve, the equalizer's response is the ideal reciprocal of the original non-flat curve, and they are for all practical purposes analogous.

If you wish for a powerful PC-based equalization software that is independent of FB2K, please investigate  the Equalizer APO feature of recent and current versions of Windows, and the convenient Peace interface for it: Peace APO  powerful and efficient equalizer for Windows

Thanks for the link, it looks really good, unfortunately I do use FB2K but it seems really good.

Thank you for such an informative comment.

Re: newbie questions for objectivity lovers (balanced ,tubes and switch boxes)

Reply #13 –
I use Equalizer APO 1.1 on my computer as I sit with headphones on all day at work (I make subtitles for television and therefore listen to people talk all day), and I lower the treble a lot.
One thing you should know is that you need to save your equalizer setting as "config" for it to have an effect. What I do is I adjust my settings, save it as "treble cut" and then after that save it as "config" to get the effect. I also make a flat setting that I save as "flat". Then when I want to switch between the two, I open the setting file I want to use and then save it as "config".

Although at the moment I'm using other headphones, then I've had a listen to the Sennheiser HD-800, and I did find them a bit bright, although very resolving. They also have a spike in the frequency response, which explains it. I found the HD-650 to be more pleasant overall.
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