I've just bought the new(ish) Corrs album, borrowed heaven.
As usual, I found a cheap version on the net (it appears to be a pre-release USA version) and I can't quite believe what I'm hearing. It's probably typical loudness race problems, but some tracks are so distorted.
Can anyone with the UK release post, say, 2:00 to 2:10 from track 2 (angel) please? I'd like to compare it with what I have. Or else post comments - does yours sound like this?
(I'll try and upload a flac of this section later)
Cheers,
David.
I can't rip CDs into my work PC at the moment, but here's a DVD player digital out into audiophile 2496 digital in (maybe not bit perfect into CEP 1.2a within XP, but close enough).
Is the UK release the same?
I've got the Spanish version of the album. I couldn't believe what I was hearing either... I told my cousin about this, and he told me that it was fine, that he couldn't notice it. So, I believe that is a big problem, since the average person out there simply doesn't care about it.
I attached a .ape file with those 10 seconds (i'm not very familiar with flac). I was starting to wonder why nobody in HA had said anything about it There is something weird though, if you look at the waveform with CEP or similar, it doesn't clip! do sound engineers actually know what they're doing?
Thanks for that Lucas - that's perfect.
When synchronised, your version is identical to my version (so both the DVD player and my sound card are bit perfect under XP!).
I agree, it sounds terrible. I was listening on a very very cheap stereo and thought there was a fault!
There's no 0dB FS clipping, but it looks like the mix (or at least a sub-mix or multitrack part) was clipped at some point - see the attached picture. The clipping is around -1dBFS, but there are other points where the waveform goes slightly above this.
If anyone has a verison of this CD without this distortion, please post.
Cheers,
David.
P.S. I wonder how long before they release a special edition or DVD-A disc of this album without this horrible distortion?
Just checked this song from my Lossless (APE) file & the AAC transcode on my Ipod (with Sennheiser HD600): It does not only clip seriously - there is a background hiss/noise present, too
To bad - as other CDs of this band were great in terms of audio quality
Well, i can't help you really due to i haven't that CD. Nethertheless i was interested in listening to that sample and i must say - thanks for the warrning!
I'm not sure if i hear the same 'distortion' as you do, but the precussion sounds unclear or even unnatural in any way. I guess this is cause by the huge dynamic compression!? - What a pitty...
I have Thai released of that album. Awfully bad recording.
I will check with that Lucas' sample when I get home.
I downloaded and listened to the 'FLAC.' This is simply an example of impressionistic, surrealistic audio engineering. This was done diliberately. That's the sound 'somebody' wanted. It did not happen by accident or through carelessness. By the way, I agree with everyone else. To my ears, it sounds quite bad.
It sounds big, fat, ugly and distorted. Most new stuff I download has EXACTLY this same sound and it seems to be a new trend. In the beginning I thought maybe its bad mp3 encodings but NO!. This is not just a loudnessrace, but now its an uglinessrace. Anyway these albums end up in either in my recycle bin or the 2nd hand shop
This track clocks at -10.26db and flac bitrate is 1141kbps . ouch.
Replaygain value of Lucas' sample is -10.2dB
The wave does not clip, but heavily compressed to near square wave.
I just listened to Lucas's example and that sounds pretty bloody awful!
Unfortunately, as others have said, this Corrs album isn't by any means a rare example. Please Mr Record company, take some pride in your product!
Here's another sample. I think this is the worst sounding part of the album... it's just amazing, if you think the other sample was bad.. then.. well, just listen to it
I told my cousin about this, and he told me that it was fine, that he couldn't notice it. So, I believe that is a big problem, since the average person out there simply doesn't care about it.
How should they know, if they mostly listen to popular and >new< music? Humans barely notice slow changes. The loudness race is something which slowly increased over more than 15 years. They do not notice anything different, because everything else they know sounds the same - so they think that this distorted and "hot" sound is
normal.
If you want them to notice it, you need to give them a counterexample - let them listen to a record which is brilliantly mastered....... and raise the volume level, so that both tracks are at the same volume (or alternatively lower the volume of the hot mastered track).
- Lyx
...This is simply an example of impressionistic, surrealistic audio engineering. ...[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237161"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Apprehensive and srupulous...
How should they know, if they mostly listen to popular and >new< music? Humans barely notice slow changes. The loudness race is something which slowly increased over more than 15 years...
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Maybe i should ask my older sister for the 'Simon & Garfunkel' CDs again...
With a certain satisfaction i remeber now the fact that wavegain told me once to encrease the albumgain by +2db for my three Burce Springsteen Live CDs .
Here's another sample. I think this is the worst sounding part of the album... it's just amazing, if you think the other sample was bad.. then.. well, just listen to it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237179"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Christ, this is just unlistenable, and therefore unenjoyable! (musical taste aside). If I was an artist and someone did this to my work I would be REALLY pissed. I wonder if musicians have any control over this issue. There should be some kind of movement from their part. If they don't care about the quality of the music they're releasing for their fans, nobody will.
Anyways, I guess recording companies badly want people to believe CD is an inferior format with examples like this...
Just scan my iTune library of this album. Album gain is -10dB!!!!, this one might be the top 10 in loudness chart in pop/folk genre.
Here's another sample. I think this is the worst sounding part of the album... it's just amazing, if you think the other sample was bad.. then.. well, just listen to it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237179"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd stopped listening by then - you're right - it's terrible!
I think it's so shocking because "The Corrs" produce mainly acoustic music (although the last couple of albums have been more "pop"y and more produced).
When you take a distorted guitar sound and distort it more, it's bad; but when you take the sound of a "real" instrument (something you can hear live without amplifiers or electronics) and distort it, then the result is so much worse.
It reminds me of the time I started playing with my first tape deck with a manual recording level control. I made trial recordings where I increased the level from minimum to maximum, to see where distortion kicked in. I found (as everyone knew back then) that it depends on the type of music and the tape itself. If you push the recording level much too high, it creates that kind of distortion.
I must have been 11 or 12 when I learnt how to set recording levels to avoid this kind of distortion. Why are The Corrs working with someone who hasn't learnt this basic lesson?
For the first time ever, I think I will write to the record company about this.
However, I haven't seen anyone from the UK confirm that the UK issue sounds like that - so I think I'll go out and buy it to check - I'll return it if it does.
Cheers,
David.
Hehehe, I learnt the same thing, but I think I was younger (I am only 18 now). We bought a Sony component system when I was 5, and it had manual recording control for the tape decks. My mother always recorded her CDs to tapes, for the car and stuff. So I liked to play with the thing, too, and eventually learned the kind of distortion it produced and how to set the level fine. It's amazing how all this kind of stuff I did when I was little has influenced me in my life now.. can't quite explain it. I still use that component system for my HD580, but only amp, cd player, eq and tuner. I am still impressed that the CD player has 8 times oversampling, and works like the first day, being 13 years old.
I too believe it is the same distortion as an overloaded tape. My CD says "Manufactured in the EU" so I don't know if a UK CD will be any different.
see you,
I must have been 11 or 12 when I learnt how to set recording levels to avoid this kind of distortion. Why are The Corrs working with someone who hasn't learnt this basic lesson?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237355"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Funny (I bet many of us were doing the same), but sadly so true.
Are we strange on this forum?
Apart from some issue with the Australian copy protected release, I can't find one single criticism of the sound quality of this album anywhere on the web or UseNet.
I can't believe the world is so deaf!
Cheers,
David.
I had noticed the clipping in the vocals for "Radio" in their Unplugged DVD, but I didn't know their newest album was like this.
The Korean edition has the same distortion.
I have only listened to it briefly, so I hadn't previously noticed, but now that you bring it up, I can tell right away.
just thought about another idea:
A very good method to make people sensible to overcompressing artifacts could be the following:
Take a track which was brilliantly mastered. Then make a copy of it and run it through a really agressive compressor.
Then put both songs into a player which supports replaygain, like foobar. Trackgain both files. Then disable the "adjust volume depending on peak-information" and add a high-quality limiter to the dsp-chain to avoid hard-clipping.
The result:
- A track which was softly compressed to 89db average loudness, keeping most of the dynamic range.
- The same track aggressively compressed but lowered to 89db
For better effect, choose a track with good kicking percussions.
Then let the person listen to both versions a bit and ask them which of the both sounds better and "more kicking" ;-)
- Lyx
this recording is inexcusable! the audio quality of this CD is pathetic! the drums are completely distorted, there's quite a bit of harmonic distortion on the vocals, and the electric guitar is pumping. the overall sound of the clip is distorted, squashed, clipped, and bright. hardly warm and punchy, the kind of sound many producers aim for but almost no one seems to get right. all of these side effects tell us the usual tale of destruction: everything was recorded to hard disk very loud, and from there compressed several times during mixdown so that it sounds punchy (if this was their intent they failed miserably) and hot and at the same time prevent clipping because the levels are already too high. in addition, one or perhaps more times compression during mastering and tuh duh: the perfect sonically ruined album. it's terrible! no way i would ever expose myself to this kind of garbage. i would return the CD to the store or record label promptly and tell 'em to shove it up their ass.
i would return the CD to the store or record label promptly and tell 'em to shove it up their ass.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237402"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It came from ebay, and it's hardly fair to criticise the seller, to who I've already given excellent feedback because it came so quickly and in perfect condition.
However, I will go and buy one from a store just so I can return it with a complaint! ;-)
EDIT: That tells you a worrying amount about me, doesn't it? ;-)
Cheers,
David.
just thought about another idea:
A very good method to make people sensible to overcompressing artifacts could be the following:
Take a track which was brilliantly mastered. Then make a copy of it and run it through a really agressive compressor.
Then put both songs into a player which supports replaygain, like foobar. Trackgain both files. Then disable the "adjust volume depending on peak-information" and add a high-quality limiter to the dsp-chain to avoid hard-clipping.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237389"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Could you do that? I listend do the "angel" clip and, well, didn't really notice anything very bad. The "night" clip had a kind of "clipped off" base to it. But I don't really know, if that's the part you are talking about.
just thought about another idea:
A very good method to make people sensible to overcompressing artifacts could be the following:
Take a track which was brilliantly mastered. Then make a copy of it and run it through a really agressive compressor.
Then put both songs into a player which supports replaygain, like foobar. Trackgain both files. Then disable the "adjust volume depending on peak-information" and add a high-quality limiter to the dsp-chain to avoid hard-clipping.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237389"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Could you do that? I listend do the "angel" clip and, well, didn't really notice anything very bad. The "night" clip had a kind of "clipped off" base to it. But I don't really know, if that's the part you are talking about.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237429"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You're joking? I'm a cloth-eared idiot and plainly heard how bad they both are. Listen to a nice, old, dynamic recording (like 'Nightfly' by Donald Fagen...) and tell me that Corrs album isn't appalling.
You're joking? I'm a cloth-eared idiot and plainly heard how bad they both are. Listen to a nice, old, dynamic recording (like 'Nightfly' by Donald Fagen...) and tell me that Corrs album isn't appalling.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237545"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I listened to both, and found "Night" bad, and "Angel" not-so-bad. They weren't appealing, but they weren't appalling either. Most of the stuff I listen to is classical (= "correctly mastered"), so it's not like I've grown up listining to compressed garbage...
I guess that means my ears have thicker cloth than yours!
(Actually, I'll be replacing my headphones next week. Going from Sony MDR-V600 to Etymotic ER-4S. I'll see if the Etys make it more noticable.)
Not so bad at 30 seconds = unbearable at 30 minutes
You're joking? I'm a cloth-eared idiot and plainly heard how bad they both are. Listen to a nice, old, dynamic recording (like 'Nightfly' by Donald Fagen...) and tell me that Corrs album isn't appalling.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237545"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe it sounds kind of loud, but i can't really tell, because i don't have anything to compare it with - the same thing but done "how it's supposed to be done". Thats why it would be great if there would be a overly compressed version and a good version of the same thing, people (like me) could tell the difference.
Maybe it sounds kind of loud, but i can't really tell, because i don't have anything to compare it with - the same thing but done "how it's supposed to be done". Thats why it would be great if there would be a overly compressed version and a good version of the same thing, people (like me) could tell the difference.
Nope marq, your reply is totally reasonable imho. If one doesn't have anything to compare it to, except stuff which is the same - then it appears "normal" to oneself.
I currently dont have the time to do it myself, so here's a step by step guide how to do it, in case someone wants to:
1. Choose a track which is nicely mastered, has lots (but not too much) dynamic range. A track where there dynamic range is not just there, but also used as an effekt - like for example loud kicking in punches at the beginning of a refrain, etc. So, something were the "usefulness" of dynamic range is apparent even to the casual listener. The track not having a positive trackgain value is a bonus, but not a must. Best would be something near 0db trackgain.
2. Make a copy of the track..... then load it into a wave-editor and apply a very aggressive compressor to it - just asume you're one of those bad record labels and want to get a really loud record - however, dont exaggerate it, stay realistic in your approach. Then save the file
3. Load both files into foobar and trackgain them
4. in the preferences, >disable< "use peak info to scale down tracks that still clip after applying replaygain". This is necessary to make sure that both tracks will be at the same perceived average volume. This step is the reason why a near-0db trackgain-value for the non-compressed track is of advantage.
5. add "advanced limiter" to your list of used DSPs. This is primarily meant to tame clipping of the non-compressed track, since we disabled the scaling down in step 4.
6. in the diskwriter settings, make sure that "use replaygain" and "use DSP" is activated
7. diskwrite both tracks to wav
8. load up both files into a wave-editor, choose a representative 20secs section of the track, and trim both tracks to this 20secs section.
9. load up both trimmed tracks into foobar again. Disable "use replaygain" and "use DSP" in the diskwriter settings! Then diskwrite both tracks to a lossless format.
10. upload the two 20secs versions to ha.org :-)
- Lyx
You can listen to Grieg-Dynamics, and Grieg-normalized here : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=207754 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=20994&view=findpost&p=207754)
However, this is a technically extreme example, the original has too much dynamics (maybe it is really uncompressed), and it is clipped ! Which makes the compressed and normalized verision much less agressive.
EDIT : It's Grieg-Dynamics, and Grieg-Normalized, not Grieg-compressed, as I first told.
Hey everybody,
I don't mean to stear the discussion off-topic, well actually off album but there is an album by Era, Era2 which been driving me nuts for like over 2 years now, the worst thing is that other people insist there is nothing wrong.
Since you guys could pick up the problems with Corrs album, and those distortions are more subtle than the ones I'm hearing with Era, I was wondering if you guys could take time to listen, and put me out of my misery. (confirm either my correctness or insanity)
Thank, you!
P.S. What I'm hearing is sort of static, especially strong in right channel. (I did replay gain the track, for no good reason, but it doesn't seem to affect anything, but you might wish to turn up the volume)
I hear a background hiss (analog master?), and a stronger one when the voices sound. But this last one sounds like air, I mean, I think you can hear both the sound produced by the vocal cords and the air that comes out of the people when they sing. I don't know if I explained this clearly
Other than that, I can't hear any kind of distortion...
Here's another sample. I think this is the worst sounding part of the album... it's just amazing, if you think the other sample was bad.. then.. well, just listen to it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237179"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is probably just a new clever way to punish pirates. Make it sound bad enough and no one will listen to thier illegal copies. If it hurts sales in general, just blame it on illegal copying. Pretty much the same old tactics in a new wrapping.
But seriously, that sample was terrible.
I didn't get what you mean
Other than that, I can't hear any kind of distortion...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237655"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So... preliminary diagnosis: insane
Because what I'm hearing is kinda mix of metallic grains robbing agains each other/and hissing radio static (all subtly quite compared to voices of the chorus).
Because what I'm hearing is kinda mix of metallic grains robbing agains each other/and hissing radio static (all subtly quite compared to voices of the chorus).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237669"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd say a metallic grainy sound for sure, which gives it a kind of breathy quality. It certainly doesn't sound like a naturally recorded voice. To be honest, I don't spot the radio static you describe so much though.
There are a couple of little peaks where the voice/s create an usual, high pitched sound, 13 seconds in the left channel is the most noticeable. Could just be someone with an unfortuante lisp.
Another instance of horrible clipping: The Californication album by the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
I was quite disappointed with Borrowed Heaven as well. Clipping is very frequent I think.
Here is the 2:00-2:10 segment from Angel, from the Australian release of Borrowed Heaven.
Try this one : http://www.flowingtears.de/flash2004/musik.../razorbliss.mp3 (http://www.flowingtears.de/flash2004/musik/sound/razorbliss.mp3)
Here the 128k artifacts actually mask some of the roughness and distorsion.
Im glad i read this thread before i bought the new Corrs cd. Thanks for the samples, those are distorted so bad. I atucally played the distorted clip for a friend of mine who listens to only heavy metal, he couldnt hear any problem with it he said. How are we going to educate the people to only buy quality cd's when they cant even hear a difference?
Like it was mentioned before, for some people it may not be easy to pick the flaws unless there is a flawless version available to compare with.
One could try to find a promo version of some album and compare it to the retail. For example 'Nightwish - Once' promo seems to be less aggressively mastered than the retail.
I atucally played the distorted clip for a friend of mine who listens to only heavy metal...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237811"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Electic guitar is a distortion to begin with, so it is understandable that he couldn't find anything wrong with Corrs album. It would be pretty hard to convince a person who listens to distortion as a form of music to belive that it's bad to have distortion.
It took me a while to hear the difference, since as I was reading this thread I was listening to Slipknot
I've tried overcompressing material before.
I was aiming for that squashed "sound" you hear on commercial music radio. So I didn't try to retain the dynamics or fidelity of the track - I tried to imitate the washed out "all loud but naff" sound. I started with a well mastered, dynamic track, and squashed it to the point where it started to distort.
It allowed the track to sound much louder, more aggressive, and the "home made" multi-band compression I carried out in Cool Edit Pro it also has the effect of EQing it to sound much brighter. The version I've uploaded has been normalised to sound the same volume as the original, and has had the EQ change reversed.
So what you hear is just the compression. It makes it sound like a completely different recording. More commercial, more aggressive, but much less like a real trumpet!
There is a little distortion on the trumpet and the bass, but there's more distortion on The Corrs Angle track - more dynamics too.
Cheers,
David.
Here is the 2:00-2:10 segment from Angel, from the Australian release of Borrowed Heaven.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=237787"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It sounds just as bad, but it's been re-dithered and there are a couple of small glitches - either ripping errors, or copy protection? They're inaudible, but visible if you invert mix paste one of the other versions over the top.
Cheers,
David.
It sounds just as bad, but it's been re-dithered and there are a couple of small glitches - either ripping errors, or copy protection? They're inaudible, but visible if you invert mix paste one of the other versions over the top.
Cheers,
David.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=238429"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, the CD was copy protected though EAC was able to rip it using my old Toshiba DVD drive. I do hope they are inaudible or else I'm taking the CD back.
Yeah, the CD was copy protected though EAC was able to rip it using my old Toshiba DVD drive. I do hope they are inaudible or else I'm taking the CD back.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=238557"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Whilst I would suggest people should be awkward (!!!), if the copy protection bothers you, take the disc back and buy it from a different country on-line. The USA release I have isn't copy protected.
btw, the distortion isn't nearly as obvious through my stereo at home. However, the sound is just generally "horrible".
Cheers,
David.
As a post script, if you thought the album sounded bad, you should have heard them live from the Proms in Hyde Park, UK on Saturday night!
The performance was quite good, but the sound was awful. I've heard better bootlegs. In fact, I think I made better recordings when I was 10 with a portable tape recorder!
Cheers,
David.
As a post script, if you thought the album sounded bad, you should have heard them live from the Proms in Hyde Park, UK on Saturday night!
The performance was quite good, but the sound was awful. I've heard better bootlegs. In fact, I think I made better recordings when I was 10 with a portable tape recorder!
Cheers,
David.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=241407"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Was that on a radio show, on TV or in front of the stage?
Was that on a radio show, on TV or in front of the stage?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=241424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah, I wish I'd been there!
It was on TV - BBCi FreeView channel 702 (it would have been MPEG-1 layer II 48kHz 192kbps). It was on BBC Radio 2 at the same time, but I didn't switch to check - it's impossible to sync digital TV and digital or analogue radio broadcasts, and I wanted to watch it.
Cheers,
David.
OMG! I'm familiar with WANTED distortion as I listen to lots of Black Metal and Grindcore albums where in some cases the more distortion is the better as it creates some "crusty" and "crunchy" sound.
But these two samples I'm listening to right now simply sound awful. While on angel.ape I find the compression more annoying than the distortion long_night.ape is just distorted like hell. I don't know where is the reason for fooling customers with such a badly produced piece of music. Loudness race, that's it.
Perhaps somebody else from Germany remembers the good old years where TV advertisements had the same volume level as the movie/show/whatever. I also dislike the loudness used in theaters (cinemas). When you are not deaf when going into the cinema, you'll be when you leave. For discos it's the same. I don't know if this is a special problem in Germany or if it's a global one. And I can't understand that people who dislike those loudness trends (even if it's about too much loundess only and not about additional noise) are that rare.
I have a bit appreciation for a newbie stating here "well, I can't hear anything really bad".
If someone has never heard anything else than the super-loud squashed sound since the late 90s, he/she won't know what it should sound like. Something in mind has to popup: "Oh, the percussions should be dynamical." "Oh, these distortions aren't normal."
Only a few years ago, I myself would have probably said that I can't here anything bad. There are lots of people outside of HA who just don't notice because they're not trained to hear it, but they would care, if they would notice. If HA forum sofware would allow me to upload, I could offer additional self-made samples.
The "angel" sample sounded normal to me (in terms of nowadays). Of course, constant distortions, really poor dynamics. Just about the same as on your Dido-Life for rent CD, David; Dido had more clicks, this one more distortions. Idiots at the mixing console, sloppiness.
Is "Long night" the worst track on this CD ? It reminds me of "Whitney Houston-Greatest hits", the title "Didn't we almost have it all" had the same continuous distortions like "Long night". Besides that, "Long night" is the worst I've ever heard.
The title "Long night" is now a popular radio single in Germany. I can notice the vocals' clipping distortions even via my cheap mono clockradio without cable antenna, still worse with my hifi tuner and headphone. I just can't believe that the usual listener won't notice it. This CD is my current loudness war artifacts winner.
I can confirm that my CD sounds very poor also. Distorted and compressed. Reminds me of a low quality compact cassette recording using automatic level control that is permanently stuck in the red at +6dB.
Doesn’t sound as bad as the Foo Fighters One By One CD with a master gain value of -3dB.
I have given up on new CDs and have just spent a fortune on Amazon buying any CDs I like from the 80’s & 90’s. Buy before its too late and they get Remastered the modern way.
When CD format was new one of the advertised benefits was the high dynamic range. Why is the format being abused? There is no excuse, don’t the music industry executives realise if we want it louder we have something called a volume control!
No wonder CD sales have fallen.
One wonder CD sales have fallen.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318078"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think this has to do with bad mastering. Like said before, the majority of people doesn't even hear it.
I think the race for loudness is in line with the necessity to score hits. Today, the only way for record companies to make real money is "making" hitsingles (we can find evidence on this by watching MTV for a couple of hours). This means that a song should attract attention between all the other songs on the radio, and thus be as loud as possible.
Here's another sorry example, from Röyksopps new album The Understanding... well, I'm not understanding. Decide for yourselves... Oh, and the title is Triumphant... not a triumph for digial music, that's for sure.
Maybe I should send the CD back to the artists...
One wonder CD sales have fallen.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=318078")
I think the race for loudness is in line with the necessity to score hits. Today, the only way for record companies to make real money is "making" hitsingles (we can find evidence on this by watching MTV for a couple of hours). This means that a song should attract attention between all the other songs on the radio, and thus be as loud as possible.
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Apparently Hypercompressed material doesn’t sound louder on air, see link below
[a href="http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf]http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf[/url]
Radio stations and Music Video channels have their own compressors so there is no need to compress CDs. Anyway its not just Hit singles being compressed or the promo versions being sent out to radio stations, its the shop bought full lenghth Albums! Why do these have to be ruined?
I think most DJs have enough common sense to slide the fader up a bit on softer CDs anyway if necessary.
My Corrs Borrowed Heaven CD is now on ebay
[Aug 6 2005, 05:11 PM]Here's another sorry example, from Röyksopps new album The Understanding... well, I'm not understanding. Decide for yourselves... Oh, and the title is Triumphant... not a triumph for digial music, that's for sure.
Maybe I should send the CD back to the artists...
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That Royksopp clip sounds horrible. Looks like they are trying to make money from square waves, I almost bought that CD.
I read somewhere else on the web that a 78 RPM record is now technically superior to the average pop CD recording.
Square waves? That's so the 80s
"it's hip to be square"
I read somewhere else on the web that a 78 RPM record is now technically superior to the average pop CD recording. [/b]
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I'm not sure about SNR, frequency response, or stereo - but certainly the dynamic range of the musical content on most 1930s "pop" recordings is greater than you'll hear on many modern CDs.
Cheers,
David.
I think the race for loudness is in line with the necessity to score hits. Today, the only way for record companies to make real money is "making" hitsingles (we can find evidence on this by watching MTV for a couple of hours). This means that a song should attract attention between all the other songs on the radio, and thus be as loud as possible.
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I think radio stations use about 128kbps mp3 or wma (ugh!) to play the hits quickly from hard disc, bad encoder, heavy real-time compressor and mp3 gain (or the like) to make the loudnesses equal.
The station that would be my favorite one if the quality was better plays both records which I know they're dynamic on the original CD and records which I know they're heavily compressed (because I've once ripped and analysed those CDs). They always have the same average loudness.
The weirdest thing to me about all this is that "sounding loud on the radio" is often cited as the reason behind this stupid war.
I heard some tracks from Muse's heavily compressed album "Blackholes and Revelations" on BBC Radio 1 when I was driving home the other day and they sounded terrible. It was nowhere near as punchy or loud as the previous tracks they had been playing and I had to actually turn the volume UP to discern the different parts of the track. I assume this is the radio stations compressor interacting with the already over-compressed recording and turning the whole lot into inaudible mush. The drums were non-existent even at very high volume.
The best sounding radio station I have ever heard was a pirate radio station here playing dance tracks. It honestly sounded brilliant, I had no idea FM could sound like that. I can only assume this was because their broadcast equipment was cheap and lacked a compressor.
The weirdest thing to me about all this is that "sounding loud on the radio" is often cited as the reason behind this stupid war.
while i understand your desire to share your experience with others, there are already multiple threads on crappy engineering practices that are still "alive", while this one had been dead for 2.5 years now.. might i suggest you post, or continue this conversation (if indeed one grows out of this posting) there rather than here?
while i understand your desire to share your experience with others, there are already multiple threads on crappy engineering practices that are still "alive", while this one had been dead for 2.5 years now.. might i suggest you post, or continue this conversation (if indeed one grows out of this posting) there rather than here?
Whoops! Don't know how I ended up in this old thread! Apologies for digging this up.
Well, the loudness problem remains about the same. Why start a new thread?
The best sounding radio station I have ever heard was a pirate radio station here playing dance tracks. It honestly sounded brilliant, I had no idea FM could sound like that. I can only assume this was because their broadcast equipment was cheap and lacked a compressor.
Pop radio stations also sin by not allowing any pauses between tracks. They play one loud track, then an equally loud jingle that blends with the subsequent piece of music, or commercial. It's a way to constantly attract your attention over background noise. But as a listener in a quiet controlled environment, I find it difficult to listen to this kind of programme.
The noise of the FM medium itself is low enough. But the pop radio manages to always play something loud so that it becomes impossible to adjust the antenna by listening to the noise level.
Here we also have state public radio (in the best meaning of this term). They actually allow songs to fade out properly, and I noticed that long extended versions of music are also sometimes broadcast. Overall I get an impression of the station's importance, its ability to lay own standards.