Skip to main content

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD? (Read 1586 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Being a cheapskate, I have zero experience with lossless streaming services** -- Qobuz, Tidal, etc . Not really interested in streaming as I like to have physical files, which I typically create with EAC, or see **.
I might be convinced to subscribe to a lossless stream serv .if I were convinced that:

(1) I could legally download a lossless file and forever-keep regardless of future continuity of a paid subscription.

(2) The file/album would be bit-identical to the CD or HD file.

** I have had very positive experience with buying WAV files from digital music services such as Beatport.
Linux Mint 64-bit. Intel Core i7-9700K CPU @ 3.60GHz × 8 . Kernel Linux 5.4.0-136-generic x86_64. Memory: 16GB. Mesa Intel UHD Graphics 630 (CFL GT2). Various external USB DACs. Schiit, Topping, etc

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #1
Quote
(1) I could legally download a lossless file and forever-keep regardless of future continuity of a paid subscription.
You can't. I don't know of any streaming services that sell downloads or that has a "download" button.   The artist (or copyright holder) gets a fraction of a cent every time you stream and maybe 5 or 10 cents when you buy a song.

You can steal it by recording with Audacity and if it's not bit-perfect it should be close.

Quote
(2) The file/album would be bit-identical to the CD or HD file.
If it's lossless it should be identical to the copy they have which may be a different release or master from you have on your disc.    Frrm what I've read, the streaming services may use the latest release which may be more "loudness war" compressed/limited than an older version.   Some people say the DH stream sounds worse than their CD (anecdotal).

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #2
Quote
(1) I could legally download a lossless file and forever-keep regardless of future continuity of a paid subscription.
You can't. I don't know of any streaming services that sell downloads or that has a "download" button.   The artist (or copyright holder) gets a fraction of a cent every time you stream and maybe 5 or 10 cents when you buy a song.

You can steal it by recording with Audacity and if it's not bit-perfect it should be close.

Quote
(2) The file/album would be bit-identical to the CD or HD file.
If it's lossless it should be identical to the copy they have which may be a different release or master from you have on your disc.    Frrm what I've read, the streaming services may use the latest release which may be more "loudness war" compressed/limited than an older version.   Some people say the DH stream sounds worse than their CD (anecdotal).

Well, I don't feel like capturing a lossless stream -- stealing or not -- if it's going to take longer than it takes EAC to rip a CD. I assume the bit rate being transmitted by Tidal/Qobuz is  intentionally speed limited to prevent quick/convenient/illegal capture.
If so, then the streamer is out for me. None of my DAPs are wireless anyway. Heck, why not just use Torrents -- much faster, and free? Sour grapes for me any day ;)

About CD   vs stream (HD or std.) subjective sonics ... well, there are are way too many variables to venture nothing but a personal opinion on this matter.
I actually purchased an XMOS Amanero USB-I2S adapter board, and connected it to the I2S lines in my late-1980s Philips CDP (just before the digital filter).  Fed it with my Linux computer via std USB. It worked well, with no buffering issues. And sonics were similar to playing a CD on the same 1989 device.
Yes, that TDA1541 is very nice-sounding DAC, indeed ;)
Linux Mint 64-bit. Intel Core i7-9700K CPU @ 3.60GHz × 8 . Kernel Linux 5.4.0-136-generic x86_64. Memory: 16GB. Mesa Intel UHD Graphics 630 (CFL GT2). Various external USB DACs. Schiit, Topping, etc

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #3
  Some people say the DH stream sounds worse than their CD (anecdotal).
I assume you meant "HD", not "DH".

In any case ... about CD sound ... below is post of mine from some time ago, at another forum:

==========
==========
Quote
As weird and SPIRITUAL as my own current topical opinions are, I do think that what we were/are told by "experts" --audio journalists, bloggers, hifi shop salesmen, high-end audio manuf ads -- heavily impact our internal, personal convictions. As the EXPERT "knowledge" accumulate over time (Stereophile. The Absolute Sound), our opinions are further concretized.

As a long-time "audiophile", I had a hard time accepting that vintage gear (and specifically VINTAGE engineering, science and technology) is competitive with the latest high tech. And nowhere is this more belief more relevant than DIGITAL technology. After all, look at the progress in computers and phones since 1982.

The CD was a multibillion $ research project conducted by Sony and Philips. They not only wanted a compact, portable and durable format, they also wanted a format that was sonically competitive with the best LP, open-reel, and LIVE performance. Many of these major manufs had their own "concert halls" for such research.

About industry and consumer support for CD ... Audio, a major USA print magazine, was perhaps the best at balancing subjective tests and objective measurements. And their write-ups about early CD were very favorable. NB: Audio mag, being a major print periodical, had access to the best analog gear and their journalists were familiar with live concert sound. Their credentials counted on it. And risking your expert/journalistic reputation on printed wood pulp outputted , perhaps, a more accurate description of the"audiophile" phenomenon.

Incredulous: my recent experience with attic-stored / kmart CD players. Indeed my Musical Fidelity, Theta, Denafrips, etc commercial dac's -- 1996 to 2021 -- seem to have gotten stored away.
Are there others who have had similar revelations? Not sure. The AudioKarma fourm certainly has similar accounts. Of course the avg. Sears consumer can't construct their sentences in the prose of trained journalists at Stereophile or TAS ;) But the wisdom of the mainstream crowd -- kmart and thrift store shoppers -- should not be overlooked.
When Joe Six pack reports a CD player sounds good, that's not unimportant. And recall, Floyd Toole's NRC loudspeaker tests were partly based on average joe/jane listenings.
==========
Below: Photo (1983??) of Nakamichi Concert Hall (Japan).



======
Side Bar:
Might there be scientific or technical reasons older digital may have competitive -- if not superior -- sonics to modern digital dacs?

Maybe.

1-bit Delta Sigma (MASH, Bistream, noise shaping, that began to take over in the early 1990s was partially done to cut costs; multi-bit dacs are $$ to manuf). Chips have gotten smaller; their internal connections puny for low-voltage portable gear. And the reduction of $$ gold and platinum for the internal, critical connection of chips.

Of course, modern gear measures much better than vintage. Of course!


=====
========
Linux Mint 64-bit. Intel Core i7-9700K CPU @ 3.60GHz × 8 . Kernel Linux 5.4.0-136-generic x86_64. Memory: 16GB. Mesa Intel UHD Graphics 630 (CFL GT2). Various external USB DACs. Schiit, Topping, etc

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #4
According to the folks at Audials, recording streams, TV and radio is not illegal and never has been. Trying to resell or distribute for free those recordings is, of course, still illegal. They cite what look like the right sources to me.
Processed audio in java and python.

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #5
It depends on the terms and conditions you sign up to as a subscriber.  If the stream is not available without a sign-up, there is scope for any restriction the originator chooses.

As to whether recording TV and radio has ever been illegal, it definitely used to be illegal in terms of copyright, but that was so widely ignored and unenforcible that "fair use" became the accepted norm.  In the strictest terms, it remains illegal but permitted, and any enforcement is a civil action by the copyright holder.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #6
While I appreciate the convenience of streaming, my preference lies in owning physical files too. If a lossless streaming service allowed me to legally download and keep a bit-identical file indefinitely, I might reconsider. My WAV purchases from Beatport have been positive so far.

Re: Lossless streaming -- bit-perfect to CD?

Reply #7
It depends on the terms and conditions you sign up to as a subscriber.  If the stream is not available without a sign-up, there is scope for any restriction the originator chooses.

As to whether recording TV and radio has ever been illegal, it definitely used to be illegal in terms of copyright, but that was so widely ignored and unenforcible that "fair use" became the accepted norm.  In the strictest terms, it remains illegal but permitted, and any enforcement is a civil action by the copyright holder.
Exactly.
Capturing for personal use only would only ever be a civil case/lawsuit/action.
Distributing (regardless of for money or not) would be a criminal case.
That's in the UK and I'm sure in many other countries.