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Topic: Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection (Read 7495 times) previous topic - next topic
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Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Hi there,

First of all I'll let you know what I'm trying to do... I have a copy protected CD that I want to transfer to my minidisc player via the optical output of my DVD player. This however doesn't work due to the copy protection...

I have been told that if I rip the CD to my hard drive (no problems there) and convert it to a audio format that doesn't hold the copyright info then convert back to a wav file before burning onto a CD that I can bypass the protection.

I'd like to be able to do this with no loss of quality if at all possible. Can I do such a thing with a losses codec? If so which one?

If not can anyone suggest the best losses format for doing what I've said?

Thanks very much for any help
Paul

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #1 –
I don't see why you'd need a lossless codec, just burn the WAV's. I would be surprised if that keeps copyright info, would be rather silly of the ripper to do that.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #2 –
Well I know that CDEX keeps the protection.

It's SCMS protection or something apparently. Someone else told me that it's actually built into the WAV file or something. I really don't understand it at all... I just want to be able to put my CD's onto minidisc!

Paul

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #3 –
That's strange - I found several references claiming that WAV does not store SCMS bits. Did you actually try this?

SCMS is a MiniDisk standard that prevents digital copying of the MD data, by setting a flag that says no copies/1 copy/unlimited copies. But that is different from copy protection systems used on audio CDs, which try to prevent the disk from being ripped at all.

I guess the problem is that your DVD player might add SCMS protection to everything on it's digital out.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #4 –
Yeah I actually tried it....

AND I just tried going CD->WAV->OGG->WAV->CD and THAT didn't work either!!

I don't know about the DVD player adding SCMS protection. I've copied plenty of CD's with no problem. It's only a few that won't work. Red Hot Chilli Peppers/Californication, Nickelback/The Long Road are two.

I've tried using a mates DVD player as well and I get the same 'no copy' error on the minidisc (which according to the manual is the copy protection)

Any other ideas?
The only other way I can do it is to rip the tracks to the computer and use NetMD to transfer the files.... but this isn't how I want to do it as the quality isn't as good.

Paul

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #5 –
Use Exact Audio Copy to rip the disc to the drive.. Then move the track to the MiniDisc Player/Recorder. It should encode the tracks to ATRAC3Plus (or whatever) and you're off and running.

If you're encoding and you want quality, WHY are you using a lossy codec? Use a lossless codec. That way it is TRULY lossless and is the exact rip.. Even a plain-ol' WAV will do.

If you want a lossy codec, there's LAME (highly suggested for MP3's), Ogg Vorbis, AAC (Nero's AAC is awesome), MPC, and WM9 (dunno about this one). Look in the other areas of the forum for details.

My suggestion for lossy, use LAME. I would suggest AAC, but I'm still testing it out. So far, I'm quite impressed.. but I'm still loyal to LAME.
As for lossless, Monkey's Audio, FLAC, and WM9LL are being talked about alot. I can't say much for these as I very rarely encode my audio lossless.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #6 –
Quote
SCMS is a MiniDisk standard that prevents digital copying of the MD data, by setting a flag that says no copies/1 copy/unlimited copies. But that is different from copy protection systems used on audio CDs, which try to prevent the disk from being ripped at all.

Isn't SCMS also used on regular CD's to limit copies to 1 generation if you play nice and use one of those standalone units that requires "audio CDR"?

edit: there is such a thing... I may just have the wrong acronym.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote

SCMS is a MiniDisk standard that prevents digital copying of the MD data, by setting a flag that says no copies/1 copy/unlimited copies. But that is different from copy protection systems used on audio CDs, which try to prevent the disk from being ripped at all.

Isn't SCMS also used on regular CD's to limit copies to 1 generation if you play nice and use one of those standalone units that requires "audio CDR"?

edit: there is such a thing... I may just have the wrong acronym.

SCMS (Serial Copy Management System) is an agreement between major hardware manufacturers and the music industry which got radified in 1989 IIRC ... the first-generation of consumer (not studio) DAT recorders in 1987-1988 was prohibited to do digital copies at all so they agreed on allowing 1 digital copy of any digital source medium with the copy containing the SCMS bit in the subchannel to prevent further digital copies.

SCMS has been used on DAT (from 1989 up to now), on MD (from 1992 up to now), on DCC, on standalone CD-R(W) devices ... and this bit has been re-discovered 2 years ago for the use of general audio CD copy protections to even avoid first-generation copies to standalone devices.

CD rippers did never copy the SCMS bit IIRC because they did never rip subchannel data (don't know for sure about RAW-DAO 96 copying, though).

Professional-use studio devices have always left the choice of ignoring the SCMS bit (as well as good soundcards like Delta AP 2496 or EWX 2496 do)
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #8 –
Quote
CD rippers did never copy the SCMS bit IIRC because they did never rip subchannel data (don't know for sure about RAW-DAO 96 copying, though).


So why when I rip the CD doesn't it work? Or am I missing something?

Paul

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #9 –
Quote
Quote

CD rippers did never copy the SCMS bit IIRC because they did never rip subchannel data (don't know for sure about RAW-DAO 96 copying, though).



Actually, I have yet to find CDR software to set the "copyright" bit to "off". ALL audio CDs have this bit set, even the ones you record on a standalone.

Ans I noticed my $10 soundcard also has a "Disable copy protection" checkbox for the SPDIF...

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #10 –
Quote
Actually, I have yet to find CDR software to set the "copyright" bit to "off". ALL audio CDs have this bit set, even the ones you record on a standalone.

Nero allows to disable this pretty useless "copyright" setting ... but AFAIK this is not the SCMS bit.
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #11 –
Spadge: If you try to record a copy-protected CD via digital output onto your MD, it won't go, because copy-protected CDs have the SCMS bit set always on. The optical output of your hardware CD/DVD player doesn't allow something like this. Maybe you could try the cards mentioned by Jean-Luc. The only other digital way is to rip the CD via EAC or Feurio, then set copyright bit off, burn wavs onto CD again and off you go...

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #12 –
It's not in the .wav file at all. It's in the sub-code on the disc (i.e. non audio data), and it's in a separate bit in the SPDIF output (i.e. non audio data). There is also a bit for it in the mp3 header, but not in .wav.

To copy from the PC output to your MD machine, you have to make sure that your sound card and its driver are not activating this sub-code bit in the SPDIF output. That's all. The source is irrelevant. In theory the copyright flag from formats that support it (e.g. mp3) should be used to set it, but in practice I don't think any PC media players or sound cards are so sophisticated.

FWIW copying from my Panasonic DVD player to Philips stand-alone audio CD recorder works fine.


btw the obvious answer is just to use the analogue outputs/inputs. Or an SCMS stripper. Or a different sound card.

Cheers,
David.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #13 –
Quote
FWIW copying from my Panasonic DVD player to Philips stand-alone audio CD recorder works fine.

?! That's more than surprising, because I don't know anybody between my audiophile friends who use only these standalone CD-recorders whom would this combination work... with copy-protected CD...

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #14 –
Yes, it surprised me - though I'm not sure the CD was "copy protected" - I just assumed it was because all the commercial CDs I've seen are. When I have time I'll pop it into my PC and take a look. Too busy now though!

Cheers,
David.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #15 –
Quote
The only other digital way is to rip the CD via EAC or Feurio, then set copyright bit off, burn wavs onto CD again and off you go...


I am trying this without much sucsess at all. I'm using EAC but can't find anywhere that will disable the SCMS bit.

Paul

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #16 –
If the SCMS detection cannot be turned off from your minidisc, one option is to rip to your computer, as mentioned. If your soundcard has a compatible SPDIF out, and you can turn off SCMS for that output, you should be able to dump from your computer to the minidisc. I don't think the WAV's will have SCMS, as it's enabled in the output itself.

First place to look would be the setup utility for your soundcard. Some have the ability to ignore or turn off SCMS for SPDIF. For example, Terratec cards do this by default. Also, some 'prosumer' and professional CD/DVD players don't use SCMS for SPDIF outputs by default.

As 2bdecided said, a stripper is an option - this is a smallish piece of HW with SPDIF inputs and outputs which turns of the SCMS bit from the input and passes the result to the output. The advantage of a stripper is that it can be used with different CD/DVD source HW and should let you connect the source directly to the minidisc.

If you don't have apropriate HW and don't want to buy HW for this, I'm afraid it's probably down to analog out.
No, I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #17 –
Quote
Yes, it surprised me - though I'm not sure the CD was "copy protected" - I just assumed it was because all the commercial CDs I've seen are. When I have time I'll pop it into my PC and take a look. Too busy now though!

Cheers,
David.

Checked last night - the disc is supposedly "copy protected" - i.e. there's a "yes" in that column when ripping with WinDAC.

So, good for Panasonic! Or Philips. Or both.

Cheers,
David.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #18 –
I read Soundblaster's Extigy external sound card disables this.  It has optical in and optical out that you can use apart from your computer, and when you feed a signal through there it strips it of the copy protection.

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #19 –
EAC does not "rip" the scms bit.  It reads the audio info only.

Disc cloning programs (CloneCD, Alcohol, Blindwrite, etc) will copy the scms because they do copy the subchannel data.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #20 –
Quote
Checked last night - the disc is supposedly "copy protected" - i.e. there's a "yes" in that column when ripping with WinDAC.

This is quite obvious and normal for any AudioCD; copy-protected quasi-AudioCDs don't allow any copy via optical output on hardware players into digital input of CD- (MD-)recorders. It wasn't a copy-protected CD you tried...

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #21 –
Well, I have no idea why this is occuring.  Encoding that WAV to Ogg Vorbis should strip it of non-audio data (including any copyright protection notice), and it would also distort the audio preventing any in-audio watermarking from functioning.

Have you tried recording analog line in?
 

Lossless Codecs Without Copyright Protection

Reply #22 –
Spadge,

I do not understand the problems you are having.

Why not just rip the CD to WAV and transfer via NetMD software (simpleburner).

There is no quality loss as compared to optical.

I have used mindisc for a long time and have never run into a copyright problem ever.