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Topic: Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi (Read 7574 times) previous topic - next topic
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Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

I've read the posts "PC as a stereo component" and "Converting to harddrive-based hi-fi audio" though still have some questions.

I have a music library currently stored on my PC in FLAC and MP3 format (I am now tending towards FLAC). Amount of music data is around 700GB. What I want to do is move to a FLAC-based music system, though retaining the quality of a separates system (e.g. using B&W 802D speakers).

Also important is the ability to browse music using album covers (& preferably other artwork). Currently I use Windows Media Player 11, which allows browsing by artwork, though displays front cover only. A search feature such as the one WMP11 uses is also a must.

So what would be the best way to get the FLAC sound to the amplifier whilst retaining best possible sound quality, and allowing browsing via artwork? One option would be to go for PC + soundcard + software (e.g. WMP11). Obviously a silent PC is a must. What would be the choice soundcards to use ? Also, I have read about other devices - SLIM Transporter, Sonos Digital Music System, etc - how do these compare ?

Many thanks.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #3 –
On my end:

Laptop computer and 750GB external USB harddrive (with fb2k, winamp, itunes, etc. as player) --> Optical/SPDIF output ---> Benchmark DAC-1 ---> analog inputs of stereo preamp --->amp---->speakers.

I control music library from laptop. Several DACs are available at all price ranges and some have USB connection to computer instead of other digitical connections. I have no need for the wireless aspects of slimserver or sonos because stereo is in a central location with various rooms of the house hardwired with speakers, etc.  And slight "noise" of laptop not a problem because the stereo is in a different room from primary listening location (not noise in music, I mean noise from computer itself running).  If you need wireless, I've heard many good things about slimserver setup.  Do a search on DAC and you'll find lots of discussions about different kinds of digital to analog converters. These tend to be better transports for your digital music than most soundcards. See links for example to get you started:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/
http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
http://www.stereo-link.com/index.html

Lots of discussion about slimserver technology at:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #4 –
Quote from: danhackley on
Also, I have read about other devices - SLIM Transporter, Sonos Digital Music System, etc - how do these compare ?

The Slim Devices system works well and is flexible (open-source, and a big community of third party plug-ins), but you can only browse by artwork using its web interface. And despite the fact that I'm an enthusiastic user of a Transporter (and a Squeezebox), I'd be the first to comment that the web interface is not particularly wonderful. I think there are a number of skins kicking around that might improve matters, but I've never tried them. There are some skins that work with PDAs and the like, so you don't to use a laptop or PC as the controller. If you do go for a Slim Devices system and intend to use the web interface, you'll need a server with a decent amount of horsepower if you want decent response times. (My Slimserver machine is a 533MHz mini-ITX, and it would be very frustrating to try and use it via the web interface - the normal IR remote is fine, though). One thing you could try would be to download Slimserver and try out its usability with Softsqueeze (which is a Java-based Squeezebox/Transporter emulator).

The Sonos system is much more tightly integrated, using proprietory protocols and closed-source software, so it's much less flexible - you're limited to the features Sonos provides out of the box. The Sonos remote is very sexy with a nice screen and iPod-style clickwheel, so artwork browsing is much better.

Someone else mentioned the Sooloos. I watched their online demo some months back, and it looks very slick - superb response times. But I have two concerns: (i) the "control station" is huge (would anyone really want to use something that big as the remote?); and (ii) it's extremely expensive.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #5 –
Thanks guys. So you use the output from your soundcard to a digital-to-analogue converter (DAC). Don't most soundcards have a built-in DAC ? Whats the problem with this? How do you bypass it to use an external one such as the Slim Transporter ? Which PC soundcard would be the best for this purpose ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #6 –
Highend-audio in a PC case is very difficult because of all the electronics sitting next to the audio components.

I use an external DAC with a very cheap CMI8738 based card which outputs the data via optical SPDIF.

These cards work great with Dogbert's drivers: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=49350

When you use SPDIF, expensive cards won't make your sound better.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #7 –
External DAC such as the Slim Transporter ? So the souncard has to output via SPDIF? What is SPDIF exactly ? Would this ensure no loss of sound quality ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #8 –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

In my setup (with S/PDIF to DAC), the soundcard is not relevant (is bypassed). Yes soundcards have DACs, but there are good ones, great ones, and very poor ones. The "transporter" is only useful if you want to do the wireless in conjunction with a nice DAC.  For example, it cost twice as much as a Benchmark DAC-1 ($2,000 vs $1,000)


Quote from: danhackley on
External DAC such as the Slim Transporter ? So the souncard has to output via SPDIF? What is SPDIF exactly ? Would this ensure no loss of sound quality ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #9 –
Even if the soundcard has a DAC, i take it that the SPDIF output bypasses the DAC, allowing use of an external DAC such as the Slim?

Also, does Windows itself alter the sound in any way ? I'm running windows vista and have the FLAC files stored on both internal and external hard-discs. I take it the passage of data from the discs to the output of the sound card maintains CD-quality output ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #10 –
yes, SPDIF bypasses the soundcard's DAC. All this sounds more complicated than it is. I simply plug the spdif cable into the optical out of my laptop, plug into DAC, plug DAC into preamp with RCA cables and I'm playing music within 5 minutes of unpacking the DAC, using various software applications as front ends for the file management.  (and I have friends with same setup but computer USB port to DAC to stereo)

you can read reams of material on this site alone regarding the affect of windows on output. Lots of discussion about KMIXER, bypassing it, 44 to 48 up conversion, etc. If you are REALLY into all that you can spend a month reading about it.  To start, read this link (including all sublinks). By the way, I have no connection with benchmark other than being a satisfied customer and I thought their wiki was a good summary.

http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index...k_-_Setup_Guide

For my ears, playing from either foobar2000, winamp, or ITUNES to my Benchmark DAC to my stereo system (a mid range system of amp/preamp/speakers in the $5,000 price range....not cheapo but not super high end) produces sound quality that I can't distinguish from the original CD. My music is primarily Rock, Jazz, Blues, Folk.

Quote from: danhackley on
Even if the soundcard has a DAC, i take it that the SPDIF output bypasses the DAC, allowing use of an external DAC such as the Slim?

Also, does Windows itself alter the sound in any way ? I'm running windows vista and have the FLAC files stored on both internal and external hard-discs. I take it the passage of data from the discs to the output of the sound card maintains CD-quality output ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #11 –
Quote from: danhackley on
External DAC such as the Slim Transporter ? So the souncard has to output via SPDIF? What is SPDIF exactly ? Would this ensure no loss of sound quality ?

You're in danger of going down a confused path. Although the Transporter does have digital inputs (both SPDIF and AES/EBU), and can therefore be used as an external DAC, to use it that way for music that's stored in a PC is missing its greatest strength. The digital inputs are really only there for use with more traditional source components such as DVD players, PVRs, etc.

The Transporter, like the Squeezebox, is a network music player. Audio data from a PC is streamed to it via TCP/IP from Slimserver, and you use a traditional IR remote via the Transporter (or a web browser to Slimserver) to select which music to play. Playing music from a PC through a Transporter does not involve a soundcard at all. Using TCP/IP instead of SPDIF means that: (i) you get error detection and re-transmission; and (ii) the master clock is at the right place - in the DAC.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #12 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Using TCP/IP instead of SPDIF means that: (i) you get error detection and re-transmission; and (ii) the master clock is at the right place - in the DAC.

I never thought of it that way 

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #13 –
So the transporter is not the best way to get FLAC music from the PC to the amp ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #14 –
Also, with the Slim Transporter, I understand that you install its own software on the PC to play MP3s ? Does this mean you cannot use WMP 11 to send to the Transporter?  Does the Slim software allow browsing via album cover like WMP 11 does ?

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #15 –
Quote from: danhackley on
So the transporter is not the best way to get FLAC music from the PC to the amp ?

On the contrary, I feel a Transporter is just about the best way of getting FLAC from the PC to the amp. The PC (with its noisy fans and hard disks) is out of the listening room. The Transporter has a state-of-the-art DAC, and it supports FLAC decoding natively. It also has a nice bright display so you don't need to switch on any other device (eg. a TV) to navigate your music collection.

BUT... I get the feeling that you haven't grasped how the Slim Devices system works. Forget about other media players such as WMP, Winamp, etc, and forget about soundcards. None of these are involved. You install Slim Devices software, called SlimServer, on the PC. That software catalogues your music inside its own database. The Transporter (or Squeezebox) sits on the TCP/IP network (either wired ethernet or wireless 802.11g), and they talk to SlimServer. You use a traditional style IR remote control to tell the TP/SB what to do, and it passes on your requests to SlimServer. SlimServer in return responds to the TP/SB, which displays the results on its screen. At some point, when you've found the music you want to play, you hit the "play" button on the remote, the TP/SB tells SlimServer what it wants to play, and the audio data (in one of a variety of formats, such as FLAC, WAV, MP3, WMA, etc) is streamed over the network to the TP/SB, which decodes it and sends it on to its internal DAC and its SPDIF output. (If you have music in other formats, eg. AAC, APE, Ogg Vorbis, etc, SlimServer will transcode it on-the-fly to one of the formats that the TP/SB can decode). You can then either pipe the analogue output into your amp, or the SPDIF output via an external DAC into your amp. Think of a TP/SB as being like a CD player, but it gets its data from SlimServer over the network rather than a disc.

Quote from: danhackley on
Does this mean you cannot use WMP 11 to send to the Transporter?

I think there are various devious ways to get SlimServer to send an audio stream from other sources, but I've never tried them. Maybe posting a question on the Slim Devices forums would get a more informed answer to that. But I'd just point out that using a media player to send audio data to a TP/SB is a silly way of using the TP/SB - they are just not designed to be used that way.

Quote from: danhackley on
Does the Slim software allow browsing via album cover like WMP 11 does ?

Not via the TP/SB remote. But SlimServer also runs a web server (on port 9000), and you can control the TP/SB through the web interface (eg. using a browser running on a WiFi PDA). You can browse artwork through this web interface. There are various skins available to suit different PDAs, eg. I think there's one for those high-end Nokia devices. That said, I personally don't think the web interface is especially good. If you definitely want to browse by artwork, I suspect the Sonos system would suit you better.

And if you definitely want to use WMP 11 to navigate your music collection, forget about Transporters and Sonos's, just get a soundcard that transmits SPDIF (without resampling) and a decent external DAC.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #16 –
Thanks cliveb for the excellent and clear info. That clarified things for me a bit. I get the concept of the Slim system, I just haven't used such a system before. As regards the album art - I've heard from a few people that the web interface isn't great. It would be useful to see some screenshots of this interface. I just wonder how easy it would be to browse 700GB of music using a remote and the (comparatively) small display of the TP/SB (plus I have a lot of scans of all of the album artwork, not just front cover). I also think browsing via a PDA would be too fiddly. Does Slimserver connect via SPDIF on the soundcard ?

You say if I want to use WMP11, to get a soundcard with SPDIF (which avoids resampling) and a decent external DAC. Would this lead so similar sound quality ? Any particular external DACs which come recommended ?

I have looked at the Sonos and Sooloos - both interesting, though they're obviously much less flexible than a PC-based solution, and I'm not sure if the Sooloos will play/catalogue MP3 (only says FLAC on the website). Plus it costs an arm & a leg.

Thanks everyone for these useful comments.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #17 –
Quote from: danhackley on
Thanks cliveb for the excellent and clear info. That clarified things for me a bit.

Does Slimserver connect via SPDIF on the soundcard ?

Obviously my explanation was not clear enough!

Once more: the Slim Devices system does NOT use a soundcard. At all. Ever.

SlimServer sends your MP3s/FLACs/whatever to the Transporter or Squeezebox via your ethernet network.

Quote from: danhackley on
You say if I want to use WMP11, to get a soundcard with SPDIF (which avoids resampling) and a decent external DAC. Would this lead so similar sound quality ? Any particular external DACs which come recommended ?

Yes, no reason why it couldn't, provided you use a good enough DAC. The two main contenders seem to be the Benchmark DAC-1 and the Lavry DA10. But of course you could use any DAC you happen to like.

Managing large FLAC library with high-end hi-fi

Reply #18 –
Great, thanks a lot. I'll look into that. On a side issue, I think I ripped my CDs to FLAC incorrectly, as when I try to play them the bitrate and length are incorrect. I think it's because i used the wrong string in CDEX. Is there a way to repair these FLACs without re-ripping the CDs (I did around 100 Cds) ?

Edit: I fixed the incorrect length issue by converting from flac to flac with Foobar.