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Topic: Make an exact copy (Read 15828 times) previous topic - next topic
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Make an exact copy

Reply #25 –
Kblood:

Hmm, that sounds really interesting. So the copy can theorytically be better than the original? 

Well, I hope my test can give me some positive results. It would be great for an audiophile to copy cd's with the original quality. But then again, if I really like a CD I buy it

Make an exact copy

Reply #26 –
Yep, it's kind of funny.

My guess is that this kind of information makes for a great relief to make quickly a backup of every cd you buy, store the original in a safe place, and use the backup with the peace of mind that you have the original sound in its true form, or maybe even more safely stored

But it could also be a good reason to actually store the backup and use the original without so much concern, knowing that the information is stored in a safer place than the original! :D

Funny world...

edit: spelling

Make an exact copy

Reply #27 –
@muppfarmor
I would NOT recommend burning at 1x speed unless your burner is an oldtimer. Newer drives are made for high(er)-speed recording and so the laser has more power. It can't be regulated as it would be necessary so you'd be safer if you used 4x or above.

That 1x copies are the best in terms of quality is another myth. Look at that article if you don't believe us.

Make an exact copy

Reply #28 –
muppfarmor:

the copy can't be BETTER (i'm terms of better sound quality)
but it sure can have less errors, just like if you copy a letter by hand, you can make it easier to read.



weird example, but i hope u get what i mean ..

[SWEDISH]

(jag skriver skitfult på papper, så det är svårt att läsa, men om någon annan person skriver rent det så är det lättare, samma innehåll men lättare att läsa det.)

[/SWEDISH]

Make an exact copy

Reply #29 –
treech:

I know, but less errors must be better in some way. Well my test will show which solution that fits my situations best  And hopefully it can give some pointers to those who don't know where to begin in this jungle

Make an exact copy

Reply #30 –
Quote
Originally posted by muppfarmor
Quote

Q 1: Is EAC the best program for ripping the music to my hard drive?


yes, so I recon. It's made for that purpose you ask of.

Quote

Q 2: Which program should be used for burning? Any special settings?


Why not use EAC, together with your write offset?
Very easy + it's accurate.
otherwise there's Feurio.

Quote

Q 3: Which brand of CD-r discs is recommended?


Not really that important, it's also depending on your drive.
but not the cheapest, and definately not the most expensive

Furthermore,
for you purpose of recreating an exactcopy of the original you need a good drive;
with accurate reading & writing.
supporting overread into lead- in/out - depending on your drive's offsets.
supporting overwrite into lead- in/out - depending on your drive's offsets.

This is for accurately duplicating the CD structure & recreating it on a new medium. I'm not quite sure what you mean by making an exact copy, but the above must be included
You shouldn't need to worry about jitters etc with todays drives, the problem might still extist, but it is far less common.

/David

Make an exact copy

Reply #31 –
[situation]
I made a backup of my sister's CD Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory. EAC read the whole CD with the read speed of only 0.9x!! (I have a PlexWriter 12/10/32a, which usually reads at 8x - should be higher, I think, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong). Now I burnt the contents to a Sony Premium 80min CD-R and tried to read this CD again using EAC. The whole CD was copied at 13x (Copy & Create CUE Sheet -> Uncompressed)!!
[/situation]

Question: What read speed does a PlexWriter usually has using EAC Secure Mode?? I usually don't come across CD readable at higher speeds than 8x.

Question 2: What write speed should I use. Since I also read the write speed was 'crucial' to readability in (older) CD players, I usually write at 4x...

Make an exact copy

Reply #32 –
Quote
Originally posted by Guillaume
Question: What read speed does a PlexWriter usually has using EAC Secure Mode?? I usually don't come across CD readable at higher speeds than 8x.


From my experience, 8x speed is quite good already, my LG 32x rewriter and my LG 16x DVD drive give me speeds around 6x... But I don't know Plextor.

Quote
Question 2: What write speed should I use. Since I also read the write speed was 'crucial' to readability in (older) CD players, I usually write at 4x...


If you look further up in this thread, you will find a couple of interesting articles on that... I'd say that if you have a modern burner like you do, you can burn at 12x safely. Paying attention to the media you use, of course... From the second article, it seems 24x media is the nice certified media to buy now...

Make an exact copy

Reply #33 –
Can EAC detect my correct offset values? I saw something about detecting values and the value +122 in a field.

I will look further for these magical settings in my "big" test

Make an exact copy

Reply #34 –
muppfarmor: I would advise you to look it up in the web page that offers a database of known offsets for different drives. The actual process is a bit complex, involving a cd that is "known".

In any case, that shouldn't affect the quality of the sound in the middle of a song, so you shouldn't "feel" the "offset" as a "lack of liveliness" or anything like that

The database is available through SatCP's EAC Tutorial, I posted the link before, I think.

Make an exact copy

Reply #35 –
Quote
Originally posted by Guillaume
Question: What read speed does a PlexWriter usually has using EAC Secure Mode?? I usually don't come across CD readable at higher speeds than 8x.

I have same model, my read speeds vary on clean discs between 7x and 13x. Settings in EAC: secure, caches, C2 supported.

Quote
Question 2: What write speed should I use. Since I also read the write speed was 'crucial' to readability in (older) CD players, I usually write at 4x...

I have encountered an old stereo system that can't read well any CD that is written faster than 8x, no matter what brand the CD-Rs were or what drive was used for writing. That's my only negative experience of faster burn speeds, if I'm not writing something for that old system, I use maximum supported speed.

Make an exact copy

Reply #36 –
Quote
Originally posted by muppfarmor
Can EAC detect my correct offset values? I saw something about detecting values and the value +122 in a field.

If this value was filled in the drive settings for read offset right after starting EAC, it should be correct. EAC has build-in database for different drives and it's used to fill correct settings during installation.
But if you used EAC to detect read offset from one of the supported CDs, it's very possible that the value is incorrect. Different pressings have different offsets and finding exactly identical disc is difficult. If you want to get correct result, you need to test several discs and use value that is reported more than once.

For your purposes, you can also detect your offset by creating an offset test CD. This feature is included in EAC and can be found from EAC -> Drive Options -> Writer. The offset value you get with this disc is combined read/write offset, and it's enough to get exact replicas using only one drive. You only need separate read and write offsets if you intend to burn the files with some other drive than you used for reading.

Make an exact copy

Reply #37 –
Quote
Originally posted by Case

I have same model, my read speeds vary on clean discs between 7x and 13x. Settings in EAC: secure, caches, C2 supported.


Did you also check the option 'use c2 error correction'? And what about the gap detection mode. I currently use method B, but lots of times I have to alter this setting, because EAC crashes during gap detection.


Quote
I have encountered an old stereo system that can't read well any CD that is written faster than 8x, no matter what brand the CD-Rs were or what drive was used for writing. That's my only negative experience of faster burn speeds, if I'm not writing something for that old system, I use maximum supported speed.


Then I'll stick to 4x. I don't mind writing audio CD's at that speed. I've got a lot of spare time:D

Make an exact copy

Reply #39 –
Quote
Originally posted by JohnV
i just wanted to say still this, since burning an absolutely exact copy maybe be a bit questional. I'm not an expert of CD-r issues, but if I'm not mistaken, if you burn with not so good burner (even the CD-r disc brand may have effect), you will definitely increase the chance of jitter in the playback phase, especially depending on the clock-circuit and buffering of the CD-r drive.

Check out: http://www.digido.com/jitteressay.html


Any decent cd player should be inmune to jitter at media, because the data is always reclocked before played. Otherwise, you can consider that the player design and performance is quite bad. Maybe on same players the effect described at that page might be true, but I guess it won't on many others.

Anyway, for jitter to be audible, it has to be quite bad.

Make an exact copy

Reply #40 –
Quote
Originally posted by Guillaume
Did you also check the option 'use c2 error correction'?

C2 correction is only needed for error concealment on scratched discs, or defeating some sort of copy protections. I keep it disabled currently, I haven't had time to test how well it works.

Quote
And what about the gap detection mode. I currently use method B, but lots of times I have to alter this setting, because EAC crashes during gap detection.

I use "B" and "Inaccurate". I have tried all settings, and they all give correct results but this is fastest. EAC has never crashed here.

Make an exact copy

Reply #41 –
Quote
Originally posted by muppfarmor
I know, but less errors must be better in some way.


In reedbok cd this is not true most of the times, because most of the times (nearly always, or always in a non defective non badly scratched cd) these errores are corrected, leading to a 100% perfect recovered data. That's the beauty of digital.

Quote
Well my test will show which solution that fits my situations best  And hopefully it can give some pointers to those who don't know where to begin in this jungle


Is is very posible to do a perfect copy, and this is being done everyday from thousands of people. If you use EAC secure mode, you can copy a cd 1000 times and the quality will be the same as the original.

Make an exact copy

Reply #42 –
Quote
Originally posted by KikeG
Any decent cd player should be inmune to jitter at media, because the data is always reclocked before played. Otherwise, you can consider that the player design and performance is quite bad.

Good to hear this from an expert, this is my opinion too.

Make an exact copy

Reply #43 –
I tried to write a test offset sample cd but nothing happened and EAC give the response that No CD Found. Can anybody help me with this? How do I detect the drivers offset value and how important is it to have the correct value when writing the disc?

Make an exact copy

Reply #44 –
Quote
Originally posted by muppfarmor
I tried to write a test offset sample cd but nothing happened and EAC give the response that No CD Found. Can anybody help me with this? How do I detect the drivers offset value and how important is it to have the correct value when writing the disc?

If extraction works properly, it's likely that EAC doesn't support your drive for writing. If extraction doesn't work either, you can try installing new ASPI drivers.
Offsets aren't necessary in any way when writing copy of original, you will only get offset/44100 seconds of timing problems (we are talking about milliseconds). This is only an issue when making copy of a copy again and again.

Make an exact copy

Reply #45 –
Quote
Originally posted by Case

If extraction works properly, it's likely that EAC doesn't support your drive for writing. If extraction doesn't work either, you can try installing new ASPI drivers.
Offsets aren't necessary in any way when writing copy of original, you will only get offset/44100 seconds of timing problems (we are talking about milliseconds). This is only an issue when making copy of a copy again and again.


Mmm... Questions:

- Offsets are mostly important at the beginning of the first track, right?

- Is the option "Synch between tracks" related with it? Wouldn't it fix the offset issue between tracks?

Make an exact copy

Reply #46 –
If your ordinary cd (not CD-rom) has a low quality clock, won't that effect the quality playing your cd's. That's what I've been told by many audiophiles. My brother upgraded his clock and got better timing in the music.

Make an exact copy

Reply #47 –
Quote
Originally posted by Case

Good to hear this from an expert, this is my opinion too.


Thanks, I don't consider me a real expert, just a well informed person with some technical background.

Make an exact copy

Reply #48 –
Quote
Originally posted by Kblood
- Offsets are mostly important at the beginning of the first track, right?

Well, the data you get from CD is otherwise identical but track starting/ending positions are different with different offsets. In some cases offset error can lead to missing samples, but this won't happen on properly manufactured discs where there's silence surrounding the data. Correct offset keeps starting and ending positions at correct locations.

Quote
- Is the option "Synch between tracks" related with it? Wouldn't it fix the offset issue between tracks?

No, this is required for drives that can't position their laser accurately enough when reading. If your drive has accurate stream and it's offset is fixed (doesn't change between tries) this option isn't needed.

Make an exact copy

Reply #49 –
Quote
Originally posted by muppfarmor
If your ordinary cd (not CD-rom) has a low quality clock, won't that effect the quality playing your cd's. That's what I've been told by many audiophiles. My brother upgraded his clock and got better timing in the music.


This could be another example of the placebo effect. Maybe he should measure the jitter with an oscilloscope.