Oh my, it is so cool really, if i wanted one before, now i have to have it. Interface is so intuitive, it is a video ipod. So i watched videos, played photos. All so well designed. When i opened a folder with like 50 fotos, i used the click wheel to browse the fotos, and they loaded insntly, and i mean "now". It is really an excelent piece of hardware. I played "better man" from Robbie Williams, and it showed a picture of him. Only problem is that now i want a video iPod, instead of the nano, but i'm afraid it is not the best choice for jogging. Does de nano shows pictures?
At least Apple claims (http://www.apple.com/ipodnano/features.html) that it supports fotos and album art but doesn't support video.
Oh my, it is so cool really, if i wanted one before, now i have to have it. Interface is so intuitive, it is a video ipod. So i watched videos, played photos. All so well designed. When i opened a folder with like 50 fotos, i used the click wheel to browse the fotos, and they loaded insntly, and i mean "now". It is really an excelent piece of hardware. I played "better man" from Robbie Williams, and it showed a picture of him. Only problem is that now i want a video iPod, instead of the nano, but i'm afraid it is not the best choice for jogging. Does de nano shows pictures?
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Take a deep breath now Kwanbis....
The nano does audio and photos, but equaliser distorts the music and it skips some LAME encoded MP3 files.
The video ipod does video too, the equaliser works and it plays mp3 without stuttering, and the output can drive high impedance headphones, but the user interface is significant slower than what you experienced on the nano.
Both the nano and the video has an impressive resolution on their colour display.
On the other side of the coin: Since the pixels are now so close, each scratch does relatively more damage than on the previous iPod's.
A proper case with screen protection is therefore required with the new iPods - unless you want to put it in a museum.
PS: I fell in love with the nano when I first tried it out. Its operation is outstanding and it plays loud and clear. I was simply stunned and for a moment I forgot its small drawbacks.
Now I have a video iPod, and when Apple get round to releasing a 2G nano without stuttering and one that doesn't scratch as easily, I buy one too.
Take a deep breath now Kwanbis....
ain't that easy
The nano does audio and photos, but equaliser distorts the music and it skips some LAME encoded MP3 files.
The video ipod does video too, the equaliser works and it plays mp3 without stuttering, and the output can drive high impedance headphones, but the user interface is significant slower than what you experienced on the nano.
so you are sure that even with the EQ turned on, the nano skips? but the video ipod does not skips with the EQ turned on? and how does the nano's distorts the music?
The video ipod does video too, the equaliser works and it plays mp3 without stuttering, and the output can drive high impedance headphones, but the user interface is significant slower than what you experienced on the nano.
i tried a video ipod, not a nano, and the interface seemed ok.
Now I have a video iPod, and when Apple get round to releasing a 2G nano without stuttering and one that doesn't scratch as easily, I buy one too.
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i don't know what to do really, i don't wanna buy a nano, and then apple releases a fixed one in a month (any insider info on next release )
Honestly, how long could your eyes survive watching a movie on a itty bitty 2.5 inch screen? Get a portable media center (such as the zen vision) with a much bigger screen if you are serious about videos and movies. Get an iRiver, or a cowon iaudio x5 if you are serious about audio
Heh... To me, the ipod is nothing special. Its a good mp3 player, but there are so much better ones. Most people seem to just buy it because they dont know any other ones. (I was told a couple days ago that there were two brands of portable audio players: iPod, and MP3 -.-)
i know many other ones, but:
1) iriver, have one, not very impresive, interface sucks.
2) iaudio, numbering scheme sucks, marketing sucks, but is my other option, don't know about interface
anyway, i'm considering a NANO, not the video iPod, cause i want it for jogging.
Only problem is that now i want a video iPod, instead of the nano, but i'm afraid it is not the best choice for jogging. Does de nano shows pictures?
Is watching video while jogging really a good idea?
Is watching video while jogging really a good idea?
well, i actually do it on a gym, so i see no problem, anyway, i'm looking for a NANO, not VIDEO iPod.
1) iriver, have one, not very impresive, interface sucks.
iPod interface will also suck if your files aren't tagged properly ... and iPod sucks since you need third-party software to transfer/organise your music on it ...
Once I got used to my iRiver H120, I wouldn't have exchanged it for any iPod ... although the click wheel navigation with On-The-Go playlists is really impressive ...
Not to mention the gapless playback and other things that Rockbox added to the H1xx and H3xx now.
The iPod is a fine player but if I had to replace my H140 now it would probably be an iAudio X5.
The archos av3xx is amazing for video. Iv had mine for a while now, and they are great. Plays native DIVX/XVID video
PS: I fell in love with the nano when I first tried it out. Its operation is outstanding and it plays loud and clear. I was simply stunned and for a moment I forgot its small drawbacks
My friend has a nano. The only "small drawback" is that it's small enough to be considered a "concealled weapon". It's cool, but ok we are just following Moore's Law? It's great if you are into "mini toy models" or couldn't care otherwise. I am slightly biased though if I was going to go with a DAP I would buy back an IRiver H140 after thoroughly inspecting the glorious firmware on the Rockbox, but that's just me.
Heh... To me, the ipod is nothing special. Its a good mp3 player, but there are so much better ones. Most people seem to just buy it because they dont know any other ones.
Pretty much it's the same philosophy with Creative Labs
so you are sure that even with the EQ turned on, the nano skips? but the video ipod does not skips with the EQ turned on? and how does the nano's distorts the music?
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No, no, no.
The nano skips, but not when certain EQ settings are used such as Bass Reducer. However when using the nano EQ the sound may sound slightly distorted during loud parts of a song.
The video iPod is super in every respect, less the absence of gapless playback.
iPod interface will also suck if your files aren't tagged properly...
Do you know a player that doesn't have problems with badly tagged files?
Anyway iTunes is great for tagging.
iPod sucks since you need third-party software to transfer/organise your music on it ...
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iTunes is really all you need to get trouble free music file administration and a great DAP listening experience.
as sehested said, all players suck if not properlly taged files are feeded. Also, apple is the only company offering a 4GB flash player. most flash players are 1gb, apple starts a 2. As i said, iaudio is my second choice. I'm still ooking at it.
Just got a 30GB iPod video to replace my old (but trustworthy) Nomad Jukebox 3. Lame MP3s all sound great, and I'm currently in the sloooooow process of converting DVDs to H.264 video. The screen is surprisingly watchable - I thought it would be a gimick. I'm excited about being able to actually WATCH my live NIN DVD instead of just listening to the CD version!
Nothing to add to this discussion really - just wanted to gloat
iPod interface will also suck if your files aren't tagged properly ... and iPod sucks since you need third-party software to transfer/organise your music on it ...
Amen!
Not to mention the gapless playback and other things that Rockbox added to the H1xx and H3xx now.
Halleluja!
Geez... I thought all of you had a DAP capable of running the Rockbox firmware and using the firmware with it
It's in my opinion the ultimate DAP solution. I can't wish for anything else; I have an IHP-140 with a slightly modified firmware. Gapless playback of all my favorite codecs (Ogg Vorbis, LAME MP3, MPC and FLAC), Replay Gain, and a customisable "While Playing Screen". Oh, and it can handle Replay Gain and APEv2 tags on my MP3's as well
Well ok but almost all of those benefits mentioned are derived from Rockbox firmware.
As I understand from it's wiki there's a versiom being developed for iPod.
I kinda think that it's easier to use iTunes until Rockbox comes out than to hunt down discontinued Rio and iRiver models.
Anyway I mat be wrong, I have a 4G iPod but in my country there isn't much of a choise for HDD players: mostly Apple, Creative and rarely Sony.
as sehested said, all players suck if not properlly taged files are feeded. Also, apple is the only company offering a 4GB flash player. most flash players are 1gb, apple starts a 2. As i said, iaudio is my second choice. I'm still ooking at it.
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Except for ones like mine which utilise filetree navigation.
iTunes is really all you need to get trouble free music file administration and a great DAP listening experience.
But it is extremly slow on any computer thats not made within the last couple years ;O
*yawns* what a useless topic of discussion. It only serves for eliciting zealot posts. You like iPod, good for you & enjoy it. Please try to post facts than biased opinions. After all, this is HA not Apple fan boards.
The nano works very well for running. I haven't had any problems with skipping. I also don't miss the capacity of a larger ipod, as I'm seldom away from a computer with music for long.
The shuffle is also very nice for running.
We're going down a VERY familiar road here. "ipod sucks" , "iriver navigation sucks", "ipods are the best". In order to figure out which player is right for you, you need to figure out what your priorities are.
-sound quality?
-ease of use?
-freedom from third party software?
-memory size.
No player is perfect, and few of the top brands are BAD. If you buy into the anti-ipod hype and care most about audio quality, then you might want to go with another player. If you care mostly about interface, ipods are hard to beat.
Me? I'm undecided between an ipod video 60gb and an iaudio XL5 60gb. Both have their strong points. From what I understand, the XL5 has fantastic audio quality compared to the ipod. Of course, I don't have an iuadio XL5 lying around to ABX for myself, so I have to go on the opinion of others. But I want id3 browsing, even though as long as you have a well maintained file structure, the learning curve on any player should be easy.
Too bad the iriver H1-- series isn't around anymore. I'd take one of those with rockbox any day! Here's hoping it comes to the X5!!
no skipping with my nano, and all my files are 3.90 preset extreme or 3.96b1 vbrnew v0.
my lossy collection alone is on the verge of becoming too big for even the largest ipod, so external hard drive + nano with well designed smart playlists is the way to go.
my last portable used filetree navigation, and tag-based navigation beats the snot out of it. although if you've got the music collection but not the tags, it ain't easy.
loading up through itunes isn't all that bad, just keep a copy of ipodutil stored on the ipod itself in disk mode in case you ever need to copy your music off.
*yawns* what a useless topic of discussion. It only serves for eliciting zealot posts. You like iPod, good for you & enjoy it. Please try to post facts than biased opinions. After all, this is HA not Apple fan boards.
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I agree. There is no perfect player. If there was there would be that one player and no others. If people are happy with their iPods I'm happy for them. Just like I'm happy with my machine.
yes, kill the zealotry. And how in God's name (in the case of Iaudio) does your distaste for a company's marketing have anything to do with considering the player itself?
Also, Apple used a strongarm tactic to get that extended flash memory for bargain prices, before all the competition...doesn't make them better...just more opportunistic and/or ethically-challenged.
I've honestly seen 1 or 2 zealoty posts and about 15 anti-zealot posts here. In between, there is an actual comparison discussion of portable audio player features. These threads CAN be useful for those in the market, and a new one is necessary every few months. So try and stay on topic?
Too bad the iriver H1-- series isn't around anymore. I'd take one of those with rockbox any day! Here's hoping it comes to the X5!!
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According to the Rockbox wiki, an iAudio port is already in the works - but in a very early stage - may take a long time until it becomes useful for endusers.
No player is perfect, and few of the top brands are BAD. If you buy into the anti-ipod hype and care most about audio quality, then you might want to go with another player. If you care mostly about interface, ipods are hard to beat.
yes no player is perfect, that is why i'm still undecided.
As i said, i'm between iPod and iAudio. I think they are the only really interesting companies.
I really didn't have good experience with iRiver, and Vorbis support is pretty lame (no pun intended ), so it is no-go here.
I really don't like to pay the "Sony-Tax", and i hate their software, a no-go also.
Creative, and the rest look uninsterested to me (but i'm open to someone showing otherwise).
Now that i have told what i don't want, i would like to say what i do want.
What i want is a 60GB player. What i need is a flash based player, cause as i said, i'm afraid a HD based one wold be too much sensitive to shock for running on a gym, but i may be wrong.
At the same time, i'm afraid of the flash memory "memory efect"; AFAIK, after n number of writes, the flash memory would stop working, or would start making errors.
That said, i'm looking for a good quality player, the better the best. But consider that i listen all the time bya my ThinkPad's internal sound card, and i see no problem.
Ease of use is a very important thing. I'm a techy, and i can get use to using whatever interface, but why make it complex?
Freedom from third party software is ussualy an issue, but in the case of the iPod, there is oficial Windows and Mac support, and unoficial Linux support, and being the standard, this shouldn't be an issue. Havent said that, i would prefer no software at all.
Memory size, i would love a 60 GB Flash Player, but it wouldn't happen now. At the very minimum 2GB is a must, but the more, the best.
About Rockbox formware, it is something i really think is nice, but, most of the time, by the time they finished, the products tend to be discontinued.
About iAudio, it is very confusing they producst, they look very similar, are priced similar, etc, so it is very confusing to deside which one is best, or what diferences they have.
Than again, i would like this topic to be a "non zeallot" discusion, for real help.
edits: rephrasing, and correction.
Much better. I agree that Iaudio products are hard to differentiate between. Just be aware that the main flash player differences in their product line are battery (internal Li-Ion vs. AA vs. AAA) and thus battery life and player size; the rest being pretty much equal.
I've had personal experience with the Iriver support for Ogg (on my IMP-350) and it is indeed laughable. Iaudio puts them to shame in this department.
i have read about iAudio U3, but the 2GB is about 240 dollars, almost what costs the 4GB iPod, for example.
Much better. I agree that Iaudio products are hard to differentiate between. Just be aware that the main flash player differences in their product line are battery (internal Li-Ion vs. AA vs. AAA) and thus battery life and player size; the rest being pretty much equal.
I've had personal experience with the Iriver support for Ogg (on my IMP-35) and it is indeed laughable. Iaudio puts them to shame in this department.
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thanks. i would love to see a good table with their diferences (Flash and HD).
i have read about iAudio U3, but the 2GB is about 240 dollars, almost what costs the 4GB iPod, for example.
That's a value assessment you have to make. There's little I would like more than a 4GB flash player from Iaudio. Newegg had the I5 up until recently...I no longer see it on their site so availability may be limited.
thanks. i would love to see a good table with their diferences (Flash and HD).
I'm not aware of such a table BUT it wouldn't be too difficult to make.
I5 = AAA, up to 20 hrs of batt. life (ideally)
F1 = internal Li-Ion, up to 20 hrs (ideally)
G3 = AA, up to 50 hrs (ideally)
U3 = internal Li-Ion, up to 20 hrs (ideally)
I think the U3 and F1 have the added benefit of txt and image viewing as well with a more advanced screen, since they are newer models.
Yes, nice to see we're back on topic. DO we in fact have any folks here that have heard the ipod video AND the iaudio x5? I too find them to be the most interesting companies right now.
that would be cool.
I bought a 30g iPod a month ago. I considered the iAudio, but could not find a local reseller. I like to buy in a traditional store so I can get in somebodies face if something goes wrong. I also like the 'no questions asked' replacement policy at my local store.
That being said, I am quite happy with the iPod. The sound quality is great with my Sony earbuds, my Bose headphones, and hooked up to my home stereo. I also have no problem with LAME -Vx. I've tried -V 0 down through -V 5 and didn't encounter any problems at all.
I also have a 1g Shuffle, but it doesn't like anything beyond ABR. Sorry, I can't speak on the Nano.
I didn't want to be locked in to iTunes for management, but since I have to keep a Windows computer on hand for work it's not really that big of a deal. I've been wanting to try one of the Linux based alts, but since the monitor for that computer died it is going to have to wait a while. (I'm saving up for one of those crazy hot flat panels!).
-EDIT for spelling.
get a small flash based player for the gym. they cost next to nothing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/rokuyon/5gx5imp.png)
from
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....t=152662&page=3 (http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=152662&page=3)
iPod interface will also suck if your files aren't tagged properly...
Do you know a player that doesn't have problems with badly tagged files?
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Actually, the iRiver models are quite easy to use in file explorer mode so there is no real need for database functionality. Boot-up times are faster with DB disabled, too ;-)
Anyway iTunes is great for tagging.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352887"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
iTunes is a good all-in-one solution ... but I don't trust its ripping engine and its MP3 encoder so the advantages of Gracenote naming and tagging are useless for me bacause I use EAC for ripping and tagging.
iTunes is really all you need to get trouble free music file administration and a great DAP listening experience.
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If you are satisfied with most simple solutions, this may be true ... I am running a 300GB music database with iTunes at the moment ... browsing the DB is indeed stable (although very slow), 'intelligent' playlists are fine and the interface is acceptable. On the other hand, iTunes is a real memory hog, needs lots of CPU resources, skips playback from time to time, doesn't allow to play back other codecs and cannot be configured that easily or doesn't allow to alter settings like other players do.
Anyway ... if someone is happy with an iPod, it's perfectly OK with me because it makes my personal choice of DAP more exclusive ... ;-)
iTunes is a good all-in-one solution ... but I don't trust its ripping engine and its MP3 encoder so the advantages of Gracenote naming and tagging are useless for me bacause I use EAC for ripping and tagging.
I don't trust its ripping engine either, except for brand new CD's. Instead I use a two step process combining PlexTools and iTunes. This way I get perfect rips with Gracenote tagging.
iTunes is a real memory hog, needs lots of CPU resources, skips playback from time to time, doesn't allow to play back other codecs and cannot be configured that easily or doesn't allow to alter settings like other players do.
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iTunes has large footprint I aggree. However it is extremely flexible for someone with a some programming skill to write scripts that control iTunes.
Example: I rip to ALAC and transcode to AAC for my iPod. ALAC files are streamed to my living room stereo. I use Salling Clicker as remote and this gives me the same interface as on my iPod. I can browse genres, podcasts, find artist, see lyrics right on the phone.
Now that is just an example of how inflexible iTunes can be (ironic)
Anyway I could not do without foobar for playing other codecs and doing ABX comparisons.
I bought a new iPod Video 30GB for my wife. It is quite okay when compared to a Rio Karma.
Bottomline: There are better DAPs out there. You just have to look around.
It depends what you want in a player, iPods tend to just get the job done (which is to listen to music and find it quickly) and other players tend to compete by adding features (FM, line in, etc) and sometimes are a bit less refined in the essentials - JeanLuc said iRiver players work fine in file explorer mode and that turning off DB mode means quicker boots but personally i find the concept of regularly booting a DAP ridiculous, and browsing music by filesystem view equally silly (what if i want to browse by genre?) The difference seems to come down to whether you want a gadget or a music player. Yaknow, each to their own.
It depends what you want in a player, iPods tend to just get the job done (which is to listen to music and find it quickly) and other players tend to compete by adding features (FM, line in, etc) and sometimes are a bit less refined in the essentials - JeanLuc said iRiver players work fine in file explorer mode and that turning off DB mode means quicker boots but personally i find the concept of regularly booting a DAP ridiculous, and browsing music by filesystem view equally silly (what if i want to browse by genre?) The difference seems to come down to whether you want a gadget or a music player. Yaknow, each to their own.
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I think that is a little bit of a simplified view of the situation. If you want something for a music player, the ui and extra features aren't the only things that make the difference. If I get something other than an Ipod I will probablt never even use the other featues, but will get it because of better build/sound quality (if I find it to be the case after testing for myself). Under this scenario a "gadget" may well be a better music player in the strictest sense: it plays music better. I don't think other players are "less refined in the essentials" if the music sounds better (isn't listening to music the point, not just finding it 5 seconds faster?)Whether that's true, remains to be see, or heard, as it were, by my ears.
Quick side note. Correct me if I'm wrong, technically but all DAPS boot up when they are turned on. All they really are are specialized computers, with software, which needs to boot up to make the DAP usable, just like any other computer. Searching by genre is useless for me because I find a lot of music I listen to is difficult to define, and I tend to not like to label them anyway . . . so i'd forget what I called the genre. Although I still admit that I'd prefer id3 browsing. But I don't think file tree it would be that hard to get used to.
Anyway, this isn't an attack of your ideas, just devil's advocate. I see all of your points, in some ways agree with a couple. I'm just bouncing out ideas to try to hash out which players really have what I want . . . through discussion.
one thing creative did right (i think) early on was to have a search function one their juke boxes just like a keyword search on a desktop player. Maybe it was too unwieldy.
The iPod generally only needs to boot if it crashes for some reason or the battery goes completely dead (both usually damn rare), otherwise it just goes into sleep/standby mode. You never really have to boot it. Same with my powerbook actually it's a fortnightly or monthly event for me.
To me file-tree browsing just personally seems like something that's easy to implement but also very lazy. File trees don't seem to be an optimum way to manage and provide access to large amounts of music (or photos, or databases) as they aren't particular to the metadata we commonly associate with audio media. Then you have issues with 255 char limits on pathnames on Windows systems etc etc. Different types of files are better managed with tools made for that purpose. It just seems like a square peg in a round hole situation, and i won't even go into issues related to tracking changes to and syncing massive folders of files to a DAP without the assistance of some sort of a database. That's from a usability perspective, i'm sure people have their reasons for wanting things just so, and if explorer.exe is your interface to all your music it's hardly surprising. A good implementation of a database (and I'm not saying Apple's is perfect, it's proprietary for one which is understandable but annoying for some) IMHO would beat out a filesystem based one in 90% of cases except maybe 64mb keychain mp3 players they give away that you can only store 8 songs on.
Re: your comments on sound quality, aside from the mini and it's underpowered amp i think most of the iPod line has been far above average quality, though i've heard some *really* cheap and nasty ones that made me cringe. (how hard can it be, mp3 -> PCM isn't exactly rocket science and i would have thought we'd have solid state amplification on that sort of scale pretty much nailed by now) Which is currently the king of sound quality? I think it was maybe the Karma last i read? The shuffle was getting some good reviews.
Anyway it comes down to one size will never fit all, that's why there's 3 models of iPod and about 4 other mainstream manufacturers outside of that.
Not to mention the gapless playback and other things that Rockbox added to the H1xx and H3xx now.
The iPod is a fine player but if I had to replace my H140 now it would probably be an iAudio X5.
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If I had to replace my Rockboxed H140 (now a 160), I would be on Ebay looking for another H140. The Rockbox firmware and iSkin case make it unbeatable as a DAP.
I also affixed a rubber button on top of the control stick [a href="http://www.ntadmins.com/pub/Image033.jpg]bad camera phone pic[/url] to make it easier to work.
edit: another feature of the iRiver that usually goes unmentioned is the optical in/out jacks. Very handy.
I stand corrected on the booting issue. Loophole, you bring up great points regarding the browsing system, and I would indeed prefer id3, but if the DAP I want doesn't have it . . .
Anyway, you're right. These discussions go on and on, and the bottom line is very few DAP's will meet ALL your needs, so you pick and choose.
I'd love to get a rockboxed H140 (and on to 160 soon after). but I don't know about getting an item such as a DAP (small, portable, expensive) on ebay . . . who knows how it was treated ???? I still might risk it. Sure am jealous of all you H140 owners out there!!
I've honestly seen 1 or 2 zealoty posts and about 15 anti-zealot posts here. In between, there is an actual comparison discussion of portable audio player features. These threads CAN be useful for those in the market, and a new one is necessary every few months. So try and stay on topic?
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Right On Jebus!! After much searching, reading, investigating, I just bought my first DAP -- iAudio X5L 30GB. As is clearly pointed out in this thread, all players have strengths and weaknesses. I will cover the X5's shortly. I am now searching for a DAP for my wife. I am a geek, she is not. The exchange of ideas and opinions in a thread of this type is invaluable for someone trying to understand differences and make an informed decision.
X5L negatives:
-- the power connector, line in/out, and (normal -- no Host) USB connector are all provided on a separate "subpack" (small 1"x1.75" adapter) which connects to the bottom of the unit; cradle (with same connectors as the subpack) and remote not included with the unit;
-- id3 tag browsing is reportedly coming (but so is the end of the Bush administration);
-- the player does not correctly report (display) the length of OGG files but does play them without issue;
-- shuffle is not well implemented - I shuffled an 8 song playlist and the player never played all 8 songs before simply stopping; I do not yet know how it performs when shuffling through all music or some segment of the directory structure;
-- you have be sure the track number appears at the beginning of the song file names, otherwise they end up in a (album-specific) directory in alphabetical order (arghhh!);
-- I rip to FLAC for archival with EAC and currently transcode to Ogg Vorbis for the player using dBpowerAMP; I am looking for something better than the included JetAudio for playlist management;
-- navigation is performed using the small joy-stick mounted on the front of the unit, which protrudes above the surrounding surface about 1/32"; this is a potential design flaw as it raised durability concerns;
X5L positives:
-- 35 hour battery life (under optimum conditions) -- even if that is realistically only 30 hours it is tremendous (I don't have any data on this yet);
-- the sound quality is excellent, aided by the strong amplifier and abundant EQ option (I need a pair of good IEMs);
-- the folder tree view is reasonably intuitive and navigating relatively simple - I could pick it up and use it immediately, where the Gigabeat I tried left me confused and frustrated;
-- it's nice to have an FM tuner;
-- the ability to upload pictures directly from a camera would be a plus for vacation travel;
-- you can easily pick folders or individual tracks and add them to a (the single) dynamic playlist (folder), which is a convenient way to pick a couple hours of specific music to listen to;
-- DRM 10 support is available in the current beta firmware (important for me for subscription music to investigate new artists);
Miscellaneous:
-- gapless doesn't exist, but there is only a 1/4 second drop-out between tracks of a trance disc I ripped to Ogg Vorbis (q6);
-- I will probably never load a video file - it's all about the music;
-- I don't know how valuable text file viewing might be;
I picked the X5L based on long battery life, strong reviews on sound quality, and support for MP3/FLAC/OGG/WMA. An id3 tag database with browsing, gapless playback, and final implementation of DRM 10 support would make this a near-perfect DAP (mechanical design flaws aside).
Thanks for listening. Hope this is useful to anyone searching for their next DAP.
Not to mention the gapless playback and other things that Rockbox added to the H1xx and H3xx now.
The iPod is a fine player but if I had to replace my H140 now it would probably be an iAudio X5.
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If I had to replace my Rockboxed H140 (now a 160), I would be on Ebay looking for another H140. The Rockbox firmware and iSkin case make it unbeatable as a DAP.
I also affixed a rubber button on top of the control stick [a href="http://www.ntadmins.com/pub/Image033.jpg]bad camera phone pic[/url] to make it easier to work.
edit: another feature of the iRiver that usually goes unmentioned is the optical in/out jacks. Very handy.
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Assuming you could still find an H140 easily anymore. Well you could now but in 2 years probably not. I wouldn't really want to give up Rockbox either.
It seems the Rockbox project is making good progress on the iPod port. Once that's done all the Rockboxers and iPoders can join hands and live in harmony.
But until then !!!!
ignore this, it pays to read the entire post when responding.
I picked the X5L based on long battery life, strong reviews on sound quality, and support for MP3/FLAC/OGG/WMA. An id3 tag database with browsing, gapless playback, and final implementation of DRM 10 support would make this a near-perfect DAP (mechanical design flaws aside).
Thanks for listening. Hope this is useful to anyone searching for their next DAP.
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thanks you for posting, it is very usefull indeed.
It seems the Rockbox project is making good progress on the iPod port. Once that's done all the Rockboxers and iPoders can join hands and live in harmony.
cool, yes.
ignore this, it pays to read the entire post when responding.
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good point
If I may wade in here, sound quality is not a point of distinction between the new iPod and the X5. The two represent probably the most similar products I've ever come across in that regard with a very small, virtually academic advantage for the iPod, and on the downside the EQ grains up the sound to equal levels on both machines. I use a combination of the Sony Qualia 010, Ultimate Ears UE-10Pro and the Sennheiser HD25-1 headphones out of portables.
I have a large collection of properly tagged music since they've all been ripped by me, so the X5's method of organisation doesn't offer any real advantages to me. In fact, it was a disadvantage. I sold the X5 recently and am happy with iPod. It has fewer functional tics and does what it does (limited in comparison to the X5) with no oddities, workarounds, etc. The navigation speed is a bit of a letdown after the 4G / Nano but at least it does still buffer your presses, which makes it a bit better once you know the menu structure.
I'll miss the remote on the X5, but since that noticeably screws up the sound perhaps not that much
The 30Gb iPod is less than half the thickness of the 30Gb X5L, and it's still nearly half when cased with a tough Agent 18 (http://www.transaction-one.com/stores/product_family_view.do?pubID=5449&familyID=57727). Battery life is more than sufficient for commutes, while in my case a Tekkeon (http://www.tekkeon.com/site/products-mypower.php) battery pack provides additional, X5L-beating power on flights, also giving me a functional line out for amping purposes if necessary. Yamipod (http://www.yamipod.com/main/modules/home/) provides loading / unloading functionality away from a copy of iTunes.
The video was a murky jerky joke on the X5, while it is surprisingly watchable (if I had to) on the iPod. However I wouldn't use it... get a PVP/PSP for that.
*yawns* what a useless topic of discussion. It only serves for eliciting zealot posts. You like iPod, good for you & enjoy it. Please try to post facts than biased opinions. After all, this is HA not Apple fan boards.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352919"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Would you have jumped in and said the same if it were a thread on, well, anything non-Apple? And what would "facts" be when discussing DAPs? Spec sheets? As has been pointed out, all the companies have very different approaches, so it can be useful for new buyers to read opinions from actual owners.
I bought a new iPod Video 30GB for my wife. It is quite okay when compared to a Rio Karma.
Bottomline: There are better DAPs out there. You just have to look around.
Great analysis!
I'll miss the remote on the X5, but since that noticeably screws up the sound perhaps not that much
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I'm glad to hear from someone who has heard both the X5 and the Ipod 5th gen. Did you do any ABX tests with them?? Also, I was wondering about this issue with the remote. One of the things that made me lean toards the X5 was the remote. What exactly does it do the the audio quality???
I'm glad to hear from someone who has heard both the X5 and the Ipod 5th gen. Did you do any ABX tests with them?? Also, I was wondering about this issue with the remote. One of the things that made me lean toards the X5 was the remote. What exactly does it do the the audio quality???
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I first adopted a comfortable listening level for the X5. I then level-matched both portables to within 0.2db (the closest I could get in other words) given volume steps on the X5 and employed an audio switch hooked up without looking which was which. The Sony Qualia 010 (fitted with the factory cable, for portable use I use a shortened custom cable) was used, arguably the world's most accurate headphone. I also do plug & unplug tests, etc.
I've compared a lot of portables using similar methods now, and I have to say that the 5G and X5 are very, very close. Practically speaking, there was no real winner.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/rokuyon/x55g.jpg)
Also, I was wondering about this issue with the remote. One of the things that made me lean toards the X5 was the remote. What exactly does it do the the audio quality???
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It very noticeably decreases the dynamic range and roughens up the sound by a bit. More so than a Sony remote for example. I had a listen through another X5 remote, and I got exactly the same results. It's noticeable with even fairly cheap phones. I should have measured it or done something else but it was just obvious so I didn't pursue it further, just stopped using the remote. The remote would have been useful for when amped, but the X5's line out isn't that hot. For casual commuting use etc it could be an acceptable tradeoff I guess.
@ bhangraman
what iPod case are you using?
hey, got a nano and hooked up to my black box (sharp sd-sg11) and it is great... even with hq, distortion is not much a factor... but that sort of distortion is not fault of ipod only, any machine will distort with gain up too much... eq is gain, in certain areas, boost too much depending on song and bai bai smooth sound. love the nano. was impressed by many many others, but small and no jumping tracks and certainly smaller than my dr7 md recorder, though that was my little child..
cannot go wrong with nano, imho..
I first adopted a comfortable listening level for the X5. I then level-matched both portables to within 0.2db (the closest I could get in other words) given volume steps on the X5 and employed an audio switch hooked up without looking which was which. The Sony Qualia 010 (fitted with the factory cable, for portable use I use a shortened custom cable) was used, arguably the world's most accurate headphone. I also do plug & unplug tests, etc.
I've compared a lot of portables using similar methods now, and I have to say that the 5G and X5 are very, very close. Practically speaking, there was no real winner.
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ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the kind of comparison I've been waiting for!! At first I heard that the X5 was much better, but as I tried to weed through all the useless "podboys" and "anti-podboys", I came to see that they are considered very similar by a lot of unbiased listeners. This was a very helpful test/post. Thanks!!!
By the way, I'm glad you mentioned the issue with the remote. I actually plan on listening to my DAP in quiet environments REALLY listening to it . . . not just using it as a "commute to work on the subway" thing, so the sort of degredation you're describing sounds pretty bad. I guess I'm on the fence still (won't have the cash for a DAP for a little bit anyway). Think I'm leaning (gulp) Ipod 5th gen.
Many thanks from a person trying very hard to be unbiased towards ipods. It's hard to buck the anti-ipod feelings, but when the player's got what ya need . . .
If I may wade in here, sound quality is not a point of distinction between the new iPod and the X5. The two represent probably the most similar products I've ever come across in that regard with a very small, virtually academic advantage for the iPod...
I would personally like to thank you for "wading in". The kind of objective information you provided might have altered my decision, but I am hoping Cowon gets their act together and improves usability (id3 browsing) of the X5. Bummed to hear about the remote, as I just ordered one! The X5 does have OGG support, FM tuner, and (beta) compatibility with Yahoo music (which I want to use to investigate new artists), so I cannot second guess myself at this stage.
Gracias!
I like the remote for what it does. It's the most informative one out there, so it was a bit of a shame. For throwing on the PX200's, K26P or whatever for example while commuting... well, you're not going to worry about ultimate quality so it was acceptable. But the majority of my time with the portables are spent with the Qualia and the HD25, and the dynamic loss and additional scratchiness is unfortunately emphasised by both phones because of their response.
As far as a remote for the iPod goes, I was intrigued to see a wireless display remote which might be out in the first quarter. It goes on the dock so the headphone port is still free, and it has a dock pass-through so that line out should still be free. I'm sure it won't be as good as the X5's remote in terms of what it does and it probably won't allow full navigation, but it seemed interesting.
I ought to say that the test was carried out both amped and unamped. With the X5, the Line Out of the subpack has a known issue so it was compared out of both the LO and the headphone out amped (full vol, all fx/eq off) method. I have to say that the LO is not as terrible as later measurements seemed to bear out (the bendy line on the graph did not seem that bendy in real life ) but it as nevertheless lacking substance in the lows as well as appearing somewhat cloudy. With the headphone out amped though, once again it was pretty much on a par with the 5G's Line Out through a Pocketdock.
The choice between the X5 and the iPod these days seems to come down solely to the features on offer and the way they work. Obviously there is the placebo and 'I bought it so it must be the best' aspect, but it seems to me that core sound quality is not the measure of selection of these two players. Sonically, EQ will have a bearing in the feature comparison since the iPod still has non-adjustable presets, but since both do X5 and iPod EQ's muck up the effective sound quality to a similar extent, those searching for the best in portable sound will invariably stay off the EQ making that comparison redundant.
Jojo, the one inthe pic is the zCover. As of late I'm using the Agent 18 Videoshield.
I hope to get the Zen Vison M as soon as it's generally available over here and not being sold at a premium.
I think there's another point also for the iPods. They are mainstream and their defects are known. The iAudio are probably less tested and their potential hidden problems (mecanical, rare sound problems, battery, support availability ...) could be unknown at the moment.
In fact I bought an iPod Photo mainly because I know all its downs, limitations. I've already been trapped once by an Archos player which appeared later to have a widespread soldering problem on many sold players, and I couldn't get to send it for repair because of some seller problems. In fact I could not send the player directly to Archos because, at this time, they only accepted support requests from retailers.
So, to sum up, do not focus only on sound quality and visibible functionalities, other issues could happen.
I think there's another point also for the iPods. They are mainstream and their defects are known. The iAudio are probably less tested and their potential hidden problems (mecanical, rare sound problems, battery, support availability ...) could be unknown at the moment.
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Good point. I was thinking about that the other day. With a company that does not sell in retail stores (brick and mortar), it's harder to deal with issues when they do come up. The flip side is the product could have less problems than ipods. I guess it's a coin flip.
Speaking of unknowns, does anyone here have any knowledge of the Wolverine MVP-9100 100 gb player? I think they also make a 60gb and maybe lower. The layout is a little like the H1xx series with a stick in the , middle.
note about firmwares, there is an Ipod firmware, that is basically a modification that allows you to run either iPods firmware, or uLinux, it is not working on newer ipods but its progressing good: http://www.ipodlinux.org/blog (http://www.ipodlinux.org/blog)
thank you so much for your comparision. I always knew the g5 cannot sound any better and its good to hear that it cant.
To all ipod ownes swithc of album art. It slows down your ipod, going from track 1 to 2 by not skipping just listening is quicker, skipping songs is quicker and less battery drain.
regards
One point I haven't heard a lot of discussion on is the ipod's weak battery life. I've had a 30GB ipod photo (4G?, the model that preceded the latest) for about 8 months now and my actual battery life is about half that Apple claims. Just scrolling through menus on the color screen causes the battery meter to drop! (and no, I don't leave the backlight on).
This is coupled by the wonderful phenomenon of my ipod "resetting" if it remains dormant for a +/- 24 hour span = a 30-40 second apple logo screen (of death) and loss of my place in whatever album/playlist I was in the middle of. Of course this is accompanied by a steep loss in remaining power as well.
On these two issues alone I would not buy another ipod.
I cringe at the thought of what video does for an ipod's battery life.
Could any 30GB/60GB video users speak to it's in-practice battery life (vs. Apple's claims)?
This is coupled by the wonderful phenomenon of my ipod "resetting" if it remains dormant for a +/- 24 hour span = a 30-40 second apple logo screen (of death) and loss of my place in whatever album/playlist I was in the middle of. Of course this is accompanied by a steep loss in remaining power as well.
The display of the Apple logo, the longer wake up time and loss of place (if you don't have a 'hibernating' model) are all expected behaviours:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60945 (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60945)
Though having said that, 30-40 seconds is a *long* time, and I'm not sure what you mean by "of death" as that would generally suggest a reboot was needed. iPod reboots are not out of the question but if it happens every time your iPod goes into deep sleep then it sounds like something's broken.
One thing I've noticed about iPod battery is that the meter is highly unreliable, often taking a while after undocking or switching on to hit it's real level. If you're trying to gauge battery life by eyeballing the meter you may want to bear that in mind or try actually timing it with a stopwatch.
Thanks for the link bawjaws, seems the phenomenon I described is in fact "deep sleep." And to think all this time I just wanted to turn my ipod "off." After further thought the 30-40 seconds is probably an overzealous overestimate of wake-up time, though it certainly feels that long.
I am still only getting about 3 to 5 hours of playing time on a full charge (no stopwatch, just a rough estimate based on # of albums listened to), depending of course on my ipod's sleeping habits.
I am still only getting about 3 to 5 hours of playing time on a full charge (no stopwatch, just a rough estimate based on # of albums listened to), depending of course on my ipod's sleeping habits.
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Is that with MP3, AAC or ALAC ?
All right. I finally broke down and purchased an Apple iPod 5th gen 30GB. My main player up until now has been the iRiver H120 loaded with Rockbox. The H120 is still a remarkable player (thank you Rockbox) for doing what matters most; playing music and playing it well.
Why did I get an iPod? I've been holding off on getting one because (1) they're so popular and I hate following the crowd, and (2) Apple is starting to remind me of a certain other company's remarkable success in the computer industry as well as a big blue retail chain. But! I can't discount a player if it's a good player. Which it is, IMHO. I won't talk sound quality, even though I have a preference, because I haven't done any tests to back it up.
I will say that I'm happy with the iPod because it is very easy to navigate, looks aethistically impeccable, and does quite a lot of things. The color screen is quite nice and is slightly larger than 4th gen models. I'm even impressed with it's ability to play H.264 / AVC videos, although that's pretty much for bragging rights as the battery will only last 2 hours while playing them. My next test will be to encode MPEG 4 files and see how long the battery lasts on those. I'll have to up the bitrate, but with 30GBs of space, I'm willing to sacrifice a little space if I can play at least a couple of 2 hour movies before I have to worry about a recharge.
And to top it off, I'm gambling that Rockbox will continue to progress as wonderfully as they have so far, and flesh out the coding on the iPod.
I am still only getting about 3 to 5 hours of playing time on a full charge (no stopwatch, just a rough estimate based on # of albums listened to), depending of course on my ipod's sleeping habits.
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That really sucks. I just got my wife a 5gen 30gb ipod for Christmas, and we tested the battery today. After a full charge from last night, it lasted 12.25 hours of continuous mp3 playing (ranging from 128 cbr to --ape). This was using no backlight, but with album art loading from the files.
Very interesting discussion. I'm 100% in love with my Karma, but since Rio folded I've been wondering what my next player will be if/when my Karma dies.
Quick question for X5 owners: I've been told that the X5 has a 9,999 file limit -- is that true? If so, it would seem to be a major disadvantage of the X5 (especially the 60GB version) over the iPod.
I have ~3500 files on my 20GB Karma (a combination of -q6 ogg vorbis music files and -q2 ogg vorbis audiobook files), so surpassing the 9,999 level on a 60 GB player doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me. It saddens me to say this, but if my Karma died tomorrow (and I couldn't buy a refurb), I think I'd probably re-convert everything from flac to mp3 and go with the iPod.
One point I haven't heard a lot of discussion on is the ipod's weak battery life. I've had a 30GB ipod photo (4G?, the model that preceded the latest) for about 8 months now and my actual battery life is about half that Apple claims. Just scrolling through menus on the color screen causes the battery meter to drop! (and no, I don't leave the backlight on).
If your iPod still has warranty (or AppleCare) coverage, you should be able to get the battery replaced for free (you can only do this once).
If you don't have a warranty, this page will help you out: http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/battery/ (http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/battery/)
I think if the battery life drops below 50% of it's capacity, you can get it replaced.
Also if you have the EQ and/or SoundCheck on, that chews up battery life. Not to your extreme, but it might be part of the problem.
the only thing i don't like about ipod in particular, is the propietary batteries, i really prefer normal ones. how much life should i spect from it, before need to change it?
the only thing i don't like about ipod in particular, is the propietary batteries, i really prefer normal ones. how much life should i spect from it, before need to change it?
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The latest iPod models get between 12-20 hours a charge, depending on the model and your demands on it (video for example only lasts 4 hours if I recall right, EQ and SoundCheck cause it to take up more juice, etc.).
Ugh, thanks again for the advice everyone, I did get my 30GB photo last March so thinking I'll pursue this under the Limited Warranty. Now where did I put that serial number & receipt again?
The more I think about it I guess I'm just another frustrated user about my ipod's inability to hold a decent charge. I'm also of the opinion that Apple makes (or has made in the past) inflated claims as to the battery life of ipods. Maybe they're accurate under certain conditions (soundcheck, EQ, albumart, & backlight off?) but it would be nice to at least see them substantiated in some way.
I also find it rather smug of apple not to at least try to develop an ipod with a user-replaceable battery, I mean why have the customer buy a replacement battery when they could just buy a next-gen. ipod?
Again these are only my personal opinions.
The latest iPod models get between 12-20 hours a charge, depending on the model and your demands on it (video for example only lasts 4 hours if I recall right, EQ and SoundCheck cause it to take up more juice, etc.).
sorry, i meant how long till i have to replace the battery? a year? two?
The latest iPod models get between 12-20 hours a charge, depending on the model and your demands on it (video for example only lasts 4 hours if I recall right, EQ and SoundCheck cause it to take up more juice, etc.).
sorry, i meant how long till i have to replace the battery? a year? two?
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Typically, by 2 years, you will have significantly reduced battery capacity, with batteries of this type. 2 years is probably an ideal time to expect to change the battery, unless you are content with further degradation for the next 1 or 2 years after this point until it completely dies.
-Chris
Speaking of Rockbox support and iPod... What about the tongue-in-cheek reply by the administrator LinusN at the Rockbox forum?
http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=2312.0 (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=2312.0)