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Topic: Should I record through USB or Line-In jack? (Read 15420 times) previous topic - next topic
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Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

I'm planning to record audio from vinyl records & cassette tapes and was curious to know what are the pros & cons of using a USB input and a line-in jack.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #1 –
The main problem with USB devices - especially low-end ones - is that many offer no control over the recording level.  OTOH, by keeping the analog circuitry outside the PC, they are less prone to picking up electrical noise.

If you already have a phono preamp (possibly built into your HiFi) I would make a test recording via Line-in and see what the noise level is like.  All you need to do this is a phono-to-3.5 mm (1/8") jack plug cable so it is a very low-cost option.  In my case, I got very good results this way.  When you plug the cable into your sound card, twist it back and forth a few times.  This will clean up the contacts and thus improve the connection.
I am an independent software developer (VinylStudio) based in UK

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #2 –
It probably does not apply to the majority, but some USB interfaces that are powered from the USB line are quite noisy. An external power supply is likely to be better.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #3 –
The specific equipment you plan to use is more important than how the sound makes its way into your computer- turntable/tape player, pre-amp and sound card.

What are you thinking of using?

I'll second Paul's statement- having a way to adjust the recording volume before it is digitized is quite important. If you're thinking USB turntable, you are unlikely to get that ability. Sadly, this is the case even on the more expensive ones.

Jeff

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #4 –
Quote
to know what are the pros & cons of using a USB input and a line-in jack.
I'm assuming that you already own the equipment so you can try it....??

Simple...  Use the one that sounds best!    Usually 'best sound" means the one with the lowest noise (or, I should say the one with the best signal-to-noise ratio).

If you don't hear any difference, use whatever's most convenient.

You can't always say that one is better than the other.  Computers have lots of "digital noise" inside, so it's easier to design a low-noise USB interface than a low-noise PCI soundcard.  But, there is no hard-and-fast rule that says USB or Firewire soundcards are always better.

You can get a cheap USB soundcard, or you or get a really good USB audio interface (with or without a phono preamp).

You can get a cheap internal soudcard/soundchip, or you can get a really good internal soundcard.  (I've never seen an internal soundcard with a phono preamp.)

You can get a cheap phono preamp, or a good phono preamp.



Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
I've never seen an internal soundcard with a phono preamp.


[a href="http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=505&subcategory=491&product=15189" target="_blank"]

The X-Fi Elite Pro had one as well but it has been discontinued.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #6 –
I'm recording from a ION TTUSB05 turntable. I noticed that recording from it i heard this low but noticeable hum. I tried the line in jack but i still heard that hum so im assuming its picking up the rotation of the turntable platter.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: powerstone05 on
I'm recording from a ION TTUSB05 turntable. I noticed that recording from it i heard this low but noticeable hum.

A couple of things to try:
  • Move the turntable away from speakers, computer monitors, TVs or any other component that might cause intereference.
  • Plug all equipment used in the recording process into the same electrical outlet (turntable, monitor, computer and anything connected to it).
  • If you have a UPS, get rid of it while recording.

Ultimately, there may be nothing you can do. The Ion TTUSB05 is a cheap, self-grounded, all-plastic turntable with a permanently affixed cartridge and a pre-amp that can't be bypassed.

You can eliminate external factors that might cause the interference but the turntable itself is a "take-it-or-leave-it" proposition.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #8 –
Quote
... i heard this low but noticeable hum.
Good news - Bad news.

The bad news is it's analog vinyl and it's never going to be perfect.

The good news is that you may be able to remove (or reduce) the hum from the digital file with a notch filter (50 or 60Hz depending on where you live) or a "noise reduction" filter.    There are trade-offs...  You can loose some bass with a notch filter, and you can get artifacts with noise reduction, but noise reduction generally works very well with constant low-level noise. 

I always try noise reduction with vinyl & cassette transfers, and I always use Wave Repair[/color] to remove the vinyl "snap", "crackle", and "pop."


Quote from: Knowzy on
Quote from: DVDdoug on
I've never seen an internal soundcard with a phono preamp.


...Now you have!


Good thing I didn't say, "There's no such thing".

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #9 –
Is the hum present when not spinning the plate? If it is then you may try to get rid of hum by grounding the turntable separately (if possible) onto PC ground. Is the TT USB powered ?

Does the hum get worse if you touch certain places by hand (connectors, cables, cartridge)?

Juha

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #10 –
no, the hum is only audible when when the plate is in motion. However I do notice that noise reduction takes care of the hum with very little quality reduction.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: powerstone05 on
However I do notice that noise reduction takes care of the hum with very little quality reduction.

Is it mains hum?  If so, and your software has a hum filter, you should try that.  This is much less destructive than broadband noise reduction.
I am an independent software developer (VinylStudio) based in UK

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #12 –
A “hum” filter is some version of notch filter. These are generally ok at 50 or 60 Hz but hum often has many higher order harmonics. Often the next two positions above the fundamental have as great or greater amplitude. The filters usually have options for these harmonics, but those are quite often destructive of the music. Good noise reduction does far less damage if used properly.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Good noise reduction does far less damage if used properly.

Can you substantiate that?  The notch filters we use are very sharp and cause no damage that I can hear in my own listening tests.  OTOH, I have a sample where using noise reduction has a noticeable impact on an isolated bass guitar note. (I might be able to dig this up if anyone is interested.)
I am an independent software developer (VinylStudio) based in UK

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #14 –
Proper noise reduction, which isn't available in all programs that advertise noise reduction, requires a good noise sample (noise but no music) and it requires getting a high resolution profile of the noise sample for the NR process to use ( I most often use 24000 points in CoolEdit). The NR process itself must use its parameters to best advantage (I have posted these on this forum for CoolEdit and Sonic Foundry a number of times).

Without fulfilling these requirements, NR results will be mediocre at best and often destructive. This is most often the cause of people's complaints. Audition's NR and that of the Sonic Foundry NR 2 plugin are capable of good results. I'm sure there are others. A couple of programs I've tried did not have the flexibility to do much that was worthwhile.

As I already said, the noise sample is key. I regularly do NR for the low frequency noise present on all LP recordings I've ever examined. This is generally about 500Hz and below but sometimes the cutoff is higher. I remember one LP that had some strange noise near 80Hz between all the tracks. I could not get a sample without it. Doing the LF NR wasn't possible on that LP because the string bass featured on most tracks was noticeable effected by any noise profile I could make. This was a rare exception. Possibly a notch filter for that 80Hz, applied to the noise sample before making the profile, would have solved the problem, but I did not think of that possibility until after I had finished processing the LP.

I have not saved any samples or made any notes about which LPs were adversely effected by notch filters above 60Hz. Fortunately the vast majority of LPs don't have noticeable hum. I had successfully used CoolEdit's notch filter to remove higher order harmonics a few times, but not for very many LPs before I ran into one where applying it produced a very noticeable problem.

A number of people who do LP transfers professionally post on the Audiomaster's forum. I inquired there and was told that is just the way it is. Some music has too much content at the same frequencies and notch filtering is rather unpleasant. NR is generally less so.

NR solved the problem in that instance. I tried notch filters first the next couple of times I needed a fix but ran into the same problem on more than one occasion. NR worked without an problem I could notice. Fortunately, as far as I can recall, I have not run into any LP that had significant hum + harmonics on the tracks without also having it between tracks, which I guess means it was introduced during the cutting process rather than during the recording or mixing phases. Without this, getting a good noise sample might not be possible.

Since the notch filters results were sometimes unpleasant for frequencies above 60Hz, I eventually stopped trying it. I do use it for 50Hz and 60Hz. NR has worked well enough to get the harmonics below noticeable levels in all cases where I've needed it.

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Paul Sanders on
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Good noise reduction does far less damage if used properly.

Can you substantiate that?  The notch filters we use are very sharp and cause no damage that I can hear in my own listening tests.  OTOH, I have a sample where using noise reduction has a noticeable impact on an isolated bass guitar note. (I might be able to dig this up if anyone is interested.)
I haven't done any proper ABX listening tests so I can't testify as to which does the least damage...  However, I think I understand the theoretical trade-offs...

A notch filter will kill everything at 50 or 60 Hz, including any bass at those frequencies.  And, since filters (even digital filters) are not perfect, you will kill/reduce frequencies near the notch frequency and may create ripple or "bumps" near the passbands.  And if you're trying to reduce a "buzz", you'll also have to kill 100/120Hz and maybe 200/240Hz signals.

Noise reduction (if I understand it correctly) analyses the frequency and amplitude of the signal.  So, if there's only noise at 50/60Hz that matches your noise fingerprint, it will kill it.  But, when a stronger 50/60Hz signal comes through it will recognize it as a signal and let it through.  And of course, you can reduce hum/buzz-harmonics and/or hiss at the same time.  The downside is that noise reduction uses FFT, and the FFT/reverse FFT processing can introduce artifacts.

I usually try noise reduction and if I don't hear artifacts I'll use it.    I may have used a notch filter on a digitized recording, but I don't recall having hum problems recently.
 

Should I record through USB or Line-In jack?

Reply #16 –
This is interesting.  I took a more critical listen - on headphones - to the effects of VinylStudio's hum filter (which is a simple on-off affair) and switching back and forth between the two (before my ears got tired) I can hear a slight reduction in the bass content of some of the filtered samples.  I did this with my eyes closed, therefore not knowing which was which.

But, as I say, I have a sample where the hum filter, simple as it is, performed noticeably better than the broadband noise filter.  Furthermore, by placing the broadband noise filter downstream of the hum filter, it was then possible to apply it to remove some tape hiss also present on the recording without losing those bass notes.

So, based on this and what others have said in this thread, I plan to offer some additional checkboxes for the hum filter in the next version of the software to let the user decide whether or not to filter out various harmonics.  I currently filter 1, 2, 4 and 6, values I arrived at by experiment, but I think this is probably overkill for some situations.  I wanted to keep the user interface simple, but maybe that was a step too far.  I might also offer the ability to define ad-hoc notch filters (or maybe to set the base frequency of the hum filter, to make it more flexible), I need to think about that.  As I say, my target market needs something they can use effectively.  I have also encountered situations where the hum filter is ineffective due to the presence of higher harmonics still, but those recordings were a basket case anyway as they were recorded (to the computer) on faulty equipment.

During these tests, I was pleasantly surprised by the way the broadband noise filter performed on a decent quality recording.  I normally only test it with noisy material where artefacts, at some level, are unavoidable.  Like AndyH, I have found that between tracks is a good place to measure a noise sample.  Crank up the volume while deciding where to take it from to make sure that the track has completely faded out.  And declick first, if needs be.

Sorry if this thread has got a bit 'threadjacked', but hum pickup is best fixed at source.  I'd be inclined to take that turntable back if you can't find a way to get rid of it.  As Knowzy says, check for earth loops.

PS: Thanks guys for such detailed posts.
I am an independent software developer (VinylStudio) based in UK