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Topic: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM? (Read 6940 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?



I've got a Sony PS-HX500 capable of ripping records to DSD (DSF | 5.6 MHz or 2.8 MHz) and PCM (WAV | up to 192 KHz 24bit) both, I'm encoding to WavPack hybrid in any case, which format would you recommend and why please?

Thanks.
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #1 –
If you're going to do any editing, postprocessing or noise reduction, you need to use PCM.  I'm also not sure why you would use DSD for something like this regardless. 

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #2 –
Just splitting the rip into tracks, maybe noise reduction too.

I'm considering DSD just cause it's a possibility, unaware of eventual benefits in this scenario, that's why I'm asking
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #3 –
Sony co-invented DSD so that’s probably why they seem compelled to include that. That turntable is getting a lot of praise in the audiophile press and I understand that it actually only works in DSD mode through the USB interface. So you have to use the software they supply to record and then that application can convert to PCM if you want.

But as saratoga says, if you want to edit the tracks or do any processing that Sony’s application (or whatever they provide) doesn’t handle, then you’ll need to convert to PCM at some point. WavPack can compress the DSD to about half but it’s only lossless; to use the hybrid mode to save even more space, or to convert to virtually any other format, you’ll again have to convert to PCM.

WavPack could be used for archiving the original versions off the turntable if you wanted to keep those before any processing, but otherwise I think PCM is your best bet for a final format.

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #4 –
PCM it is then, thank you very much, David, appreciated.

I still need to install the software as I don't have a Mac or use Windows besides on the work notebook (I'm gonna configure my openSUSE personal notebook to dual boot this weekend) but judging from the vid in the How to use section of the product page it seems possible to grab audio directly in PCM:
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #5 –
96 KHz 24bit alright, not enough or overkill please?
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #6 –
You can use -b4.35hx6c

Bitrate will auto scale depending on sampling rate .

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: DARcode on
96 KHz 24bit alright, not enough or overkill please?
Overkill, both the 96 and the 24 - at least as final formats. If I were to do this on devices x and y that expect unknown-to-me volumes, I might have done it in hi-res and downconverted after checking the files. But I'd be surprised if an integrated device like this, designed for consumer ease, would get that wrong. You might test loudness (peak / ReplayGain) to see whether they are reasonable.

Sony should also handle downsampling well, rather than implementing one of those 1980s analog pre-ADC filters ... should.
 Also, nothing should anymore want to mistreat non-48 inputs. But you aren't doing anything wrong by recording in hi-rez and only later downconverting.

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: shadowking on
You can use -b4.35hx6c

Bitrate will auto scale depending on sampling rate .
I forgot about bits per sample, thanks!
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: DARcode on
96 KHz 24bit alright, not enough or overkill please?
Overkill, both the 96 and the 24 - at least as final formats. If I were to do this on devices x and y that expect unknown-to-me volumes, I might have done it in hi-res and downconverted after checking the files. But I'd be surprised if an integrated device like this, designed for consumer ease, would get that wrong. You might test loudness (peak / ReplayGain) to see whether they are reasonable.

Sony should also handle downsampling well, rather than implementing one of those 1980s analog pre-ADC filters ... should.
 Also, nothing should anymore want to mistreat non-48 inputs. But you aren't doing anything wrong by recording in hi-rez and only later downconverting.
Makes sense, thank you.

I'm not really going to be creating backup copies of my vinyls, in most cases just rips I can listen to away from my turntable on my DAP or at pals', what frequency and sampling rate would you recommend please?
CD quality or better?
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #10 –
Especially if you're playing these on a DAP, I wouldn't recommend going beyond 44/16, unless the level you end up getting is really low.

For critical listening with the turntable you can use the analog output. Too bad it doesn't have an S/PDIF output, but again I think that's because it's only DSD internally.

Since DSD is natively a multiple of 44.1 kHz, I would not recommend even going to 48 kHz.

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the results, and how easy that device is to deal with.

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #11 –
I just want to ask, as I saw the turntable, isn't it better for turntable to have that S shaped tonearm instead of straight one?
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Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: bryant on
Especially if you're playing these on a DAP, I wouldn't recommend going beyond 44/16, unless the level you end up getting is really low.

For critical listening with the turntable you can use the analog output. Too bad it doesn't have an S/PDIF output, but again I think that's because it's only DSD internally.

Since DSD is natively a multiple of 44.1 kHz, I would not recommend even going to 48 kHz.

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the results, and how easy that device is to deal with.
Understood, thank you.

Gonna let you know for sure.
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #13 –
When I rip vinyl I choose the native spec of my DAC for the rip, which is 24/48. I use this only for the processing, so when finished I convert to 16/44 which is perfectly fine as a 'final format' as stated earlier in this thread. I even think it is not problematic to directly rip vinyl to 16/44 before processing.

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: itisljar on
I just want to ask, as I saw the turntable, isn't it better for turntable to have that S shaped tonearm instead of straight one?
Quote from: itisljar on
I just want to ask, as I saw the turntable, isn't it better for turntable to have that S shaped tonearm instead of straight one?
An S shaped arm has a  necessarily thicker wall to survive the bending process which makes it heavier. This lowers the
resonance of the arm which might make it more sensitive to warped records. What is (IMO) more important is how the
tracking force is applied. By far the most common was to "off balance" the arm which moves the center of gravity
away from the pivot points which makes it more sensitive to motion. Dual and Thorens (others?) used springs relative
to the deck plate so the CG stayed at the pivots.

Ticks, pops, surface noise, feedback, off center holes and the other faults of LPs. Thanks for reminding me I don't miss
them. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at an LP. It's still an LP. I think it's a fools errand.

G²

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #17 –
Quote
I'm not really going to be creating backup copies of my vinyls
I'd recommend that you DO make back-ups/copies.   Records deteriorate and/or get damaged over time.    And, any existing clicks & pops can be removed (or improved) so the digital copy can be better than the analog original.

Quote
what frequency and sampling rate would you recommend please?
CD quality or better?
"CD quality" is better than human hearing and better than vinyl (lower noise, lower distortion, and flatter frequency response over the audio range).

Quote
I just want to ask, as I saw the turntable, isn't it better for turntable to have that S shaped tonearm instead of straight one?
You have a pivot point and a stylus (nominally) tangent to the grooves.    The shape of the arm doesn't change that geometry.    A longer arm means a smaller angle so less tangent-error over the arc.  But it also means more mass.

Quote
An S shaped arm has a  necessarily thicker wall to survive the bending process which makes it heavier.
And more mass simply because the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  ;)     ...As a practical matter, it wouldn't be a big consideration for me.   The weak link is the record itself, then the cartridge (assuming a reasonably-good turntable)..

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #18 –
Do they mention anywhere the the native specs the ADC here?
I can only see:"Just connect it to a PC via USB and convert analogue records into DSD5.6MHz native files."

As mentioned I'm not creating backup copies of my vinyls (maybe once I retire, right now I just don't have the time), just rips I can listen to away from my turntable on my DAP or at pals', so I'm strongly considering grabbing @ 44/16, but if I were to convert to that format as a second step which tool would you recommend please?
I'm decent with Audacity.
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Glenn Gundlach on
Ticks, pops, surface noise, feedback, off center holes and the other faults of LPs. Thanks for reminding me I don't miss
them. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at an LP. It's still an LP. I think it's a fools errand.
Many releases only come out on that format, which is still the coolest to hold with your hands IMO, but I surely appreciate the download code often included, all this is for the cases when it isn't.
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
I'd recommend that you DO make back-ups/copies.   Records deteriorate and/or get damaged over time.    And, any existing clicks & pops can be removed (or improved) so the digital copy can be better than the analog original.
Yeah, I should, but I just don't have the time for anything but a quick win right now, and that quick win enables me not to use the vinyl so it won't deteriorate much further.

FYI it takes me forever for my CD rips too, I'm a perfectionist when it comes down to naming and tagging. can't live with anything less than a 300dpi full booklet scan either, so with records I'd have to allocate hours to filtering and splitting the rip at the right millisecond, can't now, but I hear you.
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #21 –
Quick update: third party seller via Amazon hasn't delivered the hardware yet... :-[
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #22 –
When I've done this...I've ripped to the highest resolution DSD I could and kept that as a "master". If I needed to post-process; I can always just convert to PCM and do it.

DSD128 does a pretty good job of getting the ultrasonic noise out of most rates you'll want to use in PCM world.
SMSL SU-8 -> Little Bear P5 -> Sansui SE-8 - Denon PMA-770 -> Ohm Model L | High-Res Lover | DSD Enthusiast | Mad SACD-Scientist
 

Re: Vinyl Ripping to DSD or PCM?

Reply #23 –
"Thanks" to pandemic restrictions I'm stuck away from my studio, I'll go ahead with this after Easter prolly. :'(
WavPack 5.6.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac64 2.80 -V 100