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Topic: Vynil or digital? (Read 11274 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • splice
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #150
... Let's take the Timeline as an example. By your way of posting, it must be terrible, despite the fact that it can detect stylus drag where your method cannot. And does not have the error of the test LP. And allows you to test the machine over hours rather than just the time you set the needle down. Plus being able to see the results almost instantaneously. ...

I can see the benefit of something like the Timeline for measuring the effect of drag when cutting as opposed to playback, with the caveat that you'd have to be careful not to drive the cutting head into it. But it's useless for measuring cyclical variations caused by things like flex in the drive belts or torsion in the drive shaft, depending on the drive used on your lathe.  Realistically, a strobe disc or strobe marks on the turntable and a crystal locked strobe will be accurate enough for speed adjustment and will give you a better idea of the actual performance of the lathe. (The other option is to cut a test tone, and play it back on the lathe while rotating the acetate 90 and 180 degrees from its original position when it was cut, and analyse the results in the usual way.)
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

  • 4season
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #151
Let's take the Timeline as an example. By your way of posting, it must be terrible, despite the fact that it can detect stylus drag where your method cannot. And does not have the error of the test LP. And allows you to test the machine over hours rather than just the time you set the needle down. Plus being able to see the results almost instantaneously.

$400 and it only does one lousy "sample" per revolution? Seems to me that simply staring at the strobe dots on a Technics SL1200 Mk II platter would provide much more useful feedback as to the short-term effects of stylus drag, and a secondhand Mk II can often be purchased for less than the cost of that silly gadget. And yes unless I'm mistaken, I believe the Mk II strobe is quartz-timed.

Hint: Trying to visually detect error in the Mk II in this manner is a waste of time.

  • Atmasphere
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #152
Let's take the Timeline as an example. By your way of posting, it must be terrible, despite the fact that it can detect stylus drag where your method cannot. And does not have the error of the test LP. And allows you to test the machine over hours rather than just the time you set the needle down. Plus being able to see the results almost instantaneously.

$400 and it only does one lousy "sample" per revolution? Seems to me that simply staring at the strobe dots on a Technics SL1200 Mk II platter would provide much more useful feedback as to the short-term effects of stylus drag, and a secondhand Mk II can often be purchased for less than the cost of that silly gadget. And yes unless I'm mistaken, I believe the Mk II strobe is quartz-timed.

Hint: Trying to visually detect error in the Mk II in this manner is a waste of time.


It places a number of dots on the wall(s) as it shoots the laser several times per revolution. The further the walls are from the Timeline, the more you can see the pitch error. Many 'tables stabilize after stylus drag is introduced, which is why playing a test LP does not do the trick (many machines will vary speed with stylus drag- for example with bass modulation- which is another reason why a simple test tone LP falls short). One of the very few machines that can keep the dots on the same place on the wall all day long is the Technics SP-10 MkIII, which is acknowledged as one of the most speed stable machines made. The recent SL1200 GAE that was introduced at CES recently is the only other machine I've seen that can do that (although it looks for all the world like the older SL1200s, its a complete redesign from the ground up and has speed stability about 90% the difference between the SP-10 MkII and the SP-10 MkIII). Although the older SL1200 MkII is pretty stalwart, its a distant third.




  • 4season
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #153
It places a number of dots on the wall(s) as it shoots the laser several times per revolution.

Per the owner's manual:
"The Timeline flashes its laser at precisely 33 1/3 (or 45) times per minute."
i.e., once per revolution.

  • splice
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #154
... It places a number of dots on the wall(s) as it shoots the laser several times per revolution. ...

I'm beginning to wonder if you have actually ever used one, as both the manual and this Youtube video clearly show it flashes once per revolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2XieUlzvk
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #155
It places a number of dots on the wall(s) as it shoots the laser several times per revolution.

Per the owner's manual:
"The Timeline flashes its laser at precisely 33 1/3 (or 45) times per minute."
i.e., once per revolution.

Obviously, he only knows about how it works from the flawed conclusions he reached about it by reading ads.

Sounds to me like yet another placebophile who has discovered that it is far easier to buy hardware and brag about owning it than to actually set it up and make it work.

I wonder how many lacquers he has ever cut with his 50-year+ cutting head?

And that points out that while he claims that the technical papers that I posted links to do not apply to modern vinyl, he's still trying to cut it with equipment that is contemporaneous with or older than many of the papers!

  • Atmasphere
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #156
... It places a number of dots on the wall(s) as it shoots the laser several times per revolution. ...

I'm beginning to wonder if you have actually ever used one, as both the manual and this Youtube video clearly show it flashes once per revolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2XieUlzvk

I seem to remember seeing more than one dot. I'll be at the studio tonight and check it out.

  • Atmasphere
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #157
It is as I remember. The Timeline I have makes several flashes per second.

Does this site allow videos to be posted?
  • Last Edit: 13 July, 2017, 11:35:45 AM by Atmasphere

Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #158
It is as I remember. The Timeline I have makes several flashes per second.

So how does it work?

The point, as per the video, is that it projects a spot on the wall (or nearest thing in line) once every revolution and that the spot should appear in the same place on the wall if the speed is correct. So one revolution takes almost two seconds. That could not be several per second. Not if you are seeing the same device used in the same way on a 33-and-1/3rd turntable.

Anyway, doesn't the known-frequency light and the edge lines (or printed on a central card) thing work just fine? No need for some silly laser toy which jabs you in the eye just as you are trying to gently drop the needle in the right place. 

By the way, is that a cutting lathe in your picture? I can see one might want to take special care of speed when cutting a disk --- but is this little toy actually any more accurate than established methods?
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #159
By the way, is that a cutting lathe in your picture? I can see one might want to take special care of speed when cutting a disk --- but is this little toy actually any more accurate than established methods?

The traditional way to measure rotational speed is a tachometer. In the heyday of the LP tachometers were not off-the-shelf items in a nearby store, and they depended on making contact with the rotating object.

While LP technology has not progressed meaningfully since then, tachometer technology has.  For example, this laser tachometer is available at Amazon for the princely sum of $13.95: 
https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Photo-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B001N4QY66

You just point it at the rotating device and read the digital display.

It's relevant specifications are:
High-intensity class II laser measures from 2.5 - 99,999 RPM
Extra large 5-digit LCD display, high accuracy of +/- 0.05%

Seems an order of magnitude or more (10 times+) better and cheaper than the high end audio product.

So, how does it work?

I have a Rega turntable and Harbor Freight's version of a very similar laser tachometer.

I know from experience that a high contrast moving target helps these laser tachs work better.

So, I cut off a likely looking length of white adhesive tape (no actual measuring) and applied it around about half the circumference of the dark colored edge of my Rega.

Worked brilliantly the first time, every time!

An obvious refinement would be to force more black/white transitions for every revolution to get more accuracy.  One could accomplish this by doing a little measuring and alternating appropriate lengths of black and white tape around the edge of the turntable platter. 

People whose turntables already have an alternating contrasting pattern around the edge of their turntable just need to count the stripes to figure out what number to divide the tachometer reading by, in order to get the correct rotational speed.

Makes the point that while LP technology and the gear used to implement it (a typical highly critical part being the cutter head) has been unchanged for about 50 years, there are some areas of production that can be upgraded with modern technology to obtain a better and cheaper result.

  • 4season
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #160
People whose turntables already have an alternating contrasting pattern around the edge of their turntable just need to count the stripes to figure out what number to divide the tachometer reading by, in order to get the correct rotational speed.

Thanks, this could be just what I'm looking for: Hope that it can read the strobe pattern on my Audio Technica LP120 platter.

  • splice
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #161
... So how does it work? ...

That would actually be a common-sense modification of the original. With one flash per rotation, it can take several tries to get the spot onto a convenient surface. If it does, for example, 10 flashes per revolution it's much more likely that there's a spot appearing on a convenient surface. 
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

  • 4season
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #162
deleted
  • Last Edit: 13 July, 2017, 10:08:29 PM by 4season

  • Atmasphere
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #163
By the way, is that a cutting lathe in your picture? I can see one might want to take special care of speed when cutting a disk --- but is this little toy actually any more accurate than established methods?

The traditional way to measure rotational speed is a tachometer. In the heyday of the LP tachometers were not off-the-shelf items in a nearby store, and they depended on making contact with the rotating object.

While LP technology has not progressed meaningfully since then, tachometer technology has.  For example, this laser tachometer is available at Amazon for the princely sum of $13.95: 
https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Photo-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B001N4QY66

You just point it at the rotating device and read the digital display.

It's relevant specifications are:
High-intensity class II laser measures from 2.5 - 99,999 RPM
Extra large 5-digit LCD display, high accuracy of +/- 0.05%

Seems an order of magnitude or more (10 times+) better and cheaper than the high end audio product.

So, how does it work?

I have a Rega turntable and Harbor Freight's version of a very similar laser tachometer.

I know from experience that a high contrast moving target helps these laser tachs work better.

So, I cut off a likely looking length of white adhesive tape (no actual measuring) and applied it around about half the circumference of the dark colored edge of my Rega.

Worked brilliantly the first time, every time!

An obvious refinement would be to force more black/white transitions for every revolution to get more accuracy.  One could accomplish this by doing a little measuring and alternating appropriate lengths of black and white tape around the edge of the turntable platter. 

People whose turntables already have an alternating contrasting pattern around the edge of their turntable just need to count the stripes to figure out what number to divide the tachometer reading by, in order to get the correct rotational speed.

Makes the point that while LP technology and the gear used to implement it (a typical highly critical part being the cutter head) has been unchanged for about 50 years, there are some areas of production that can be upgraded with modern technology to obtain a better and cheaper result.

That seems like a good suggestion to me. It would have to be mounted on a stand so that a constant readout could be provided. The Scully has to be warmed up prior to use for about 20 minutes due to how the drive and bearings are designed. The Timeline is works well for this because when the dots stop drifting we know the machine is warmed up.

  • krabapple
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #164
Hello at all,
I'm a new user and a novice too in this topics, I'm a composer but I'd want to know more about Hi-Fi. Maybe this question could be a little bit common: can you explain me the difference between the vynil sound and the digital sound? I know the first is analog and the second is digital but what can be considered the most high quality sound in your opinion?

Thank you in advance,

Gustmah


Whatever.  But don't call it "vynil".  Please.

  • krabapple
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #165
Folks, I have a very big announcement to make next week.

Ok, it can't wait.
Amirs birth certificate has been revoked on his own forum
The D-K zombies have turned on their master. Owner-Peddlers scam profits were in jeopardy and now harmony is restored.

I know, I know, you're saying AJ, what the $^#%# does this have to do with "vinyl vs digital" fishing??
Bingo!! Nothing!!


It's more fun than yet another 'vynil' [sic] vs digital wank-a-thon.  Thanks.  WBF vs ASR, jeez, what is it they say about audiophile forums?  'The  politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small"?  (ok, I paraphrase)

Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #166

That seems like a good suggestion to me. It would have to be mounted on a stand so that a constant readout could be provided. The Scully has to be warmed up prior to use for about 20 minutes due to how the drive and bearings are designed. The Timeline is works well for this because when the dots stop drifting we know the machine is warmed up.

My suggested workflow would be to start the lathe motor, let it warm up for however long it takes, and then use the Laser Tach to verify that it is up to speed. This could take from a few seconds to maybe a minute or two, and you could hold the tach in your hand.

 If you want long-term at-a-glace monitoring, you could probably wad up a little ball of hi-tack putty from an office supply store and hold the tach where you wanted it with that. No need to make an edifice out of a itty-bitty $13 tach! 

BTW they are more like $10 on eBay direct ship from God-Knows-Where on the Pacific Rim in about 2 weeks. 

Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #167
Folks, I have a very big announcement to make next week.

Ok, it can't wait.
Amirs birth certificate has been revoked on his own forum
The D-K zombies have turned on their master. Owner-Peddlers scam profits were in jeopardy and now harmony is restored.

I know, I know, you're saying AJ, what the $^#%# does this have to do with "vinyl vs digital" fishing??
Bingo!! Nothing!!

FWIW JJ tried to get an account to post there, and hasn't been approved some days later. His comment was something about scientists obviously not being allowed. I decided to see if even poor scientists would be bounced, and voila: same thing. Well, at least I'm in good company!


  • ajinfla
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #168
Maybe he should have told them he's not a scientist, but plays one on TV. Worked for me.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • eahm
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #169
I just want to thank Arnold and other older members of HA, there are many people that come and get emotional after a while because they won't accept reality and this is one of my main issues even talking to random people in the real world, I love how you guys always point out scientific facts and this is the main and probably only reason that I, in the end, only trust HA. I am not an audio expert but I love codecs and how they work and I like to get things straight. Just my OT, please continue.
  • Last Edit: 11 October, 2017, 03:22:28 PM by eahm

  • Wombat
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #170
FWIW JJ tried to get an account to post there, and hasn't been approved some days later. His comment was something about scientists obviously not being allowed. I decided to see if even poor scientists would be bounced, and voila: same thing. Well, at least I'm in good company!
It is not good to have people that make to much educated sense in a forum related to a business that needs to keep up several belief systems to make money.
Audio forums are a prime example.
Here one seller of an audiophile 1port USB hub tells the number in $ he sponsors a dedicated audio forum with, it is 3000/year. Sponsoring
For that he can be sure to have his fanboys posting day in and out all nonsense that comes to their mind without fearing have to make sense but promote his product.
People like AJ being sarcastic about the obvious posted idiocracity around there become safely banned.

What i don't understand is that some really well educated and sense making people still post at such forums and support this business model.
  • Last Edit: 11 October, 2017, 03:59:54 PM by Wombat
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #171
People like AJ being sarcastic about the obvious posted idiocracity around there become safely banned.
They have strict enforcement of audiophile laws at places like WTF? and Chris Conman CA forums,
Illegal possession of a brain is not tolerated.

Guess JJ must be bored in retirement or just wanted to have a little fun with believers. Plenty there at Who's Biggest Fool
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • Palladium
  • [*][*]
Re: Vynil or digital?
Reply #172
What i don't understand is that some really well educated and sense making people still post at such forums and support this business model.

Cognitive dissonance is an incredibly powerful mental mechanism.