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Topic: Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ? (Read 6249 times) previous topic - next topic
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Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Well, I think that most people here are sure that with EAC, CDex or even AudioGrabber or Nero you get exact copies of cd-audio tracks.  I was thinking so too until recently I found out that in Windows 98 SE + newest EAC or CDex the volume of your rip is AFFECTED by the volume setting in Control Panel->Multimedia->CD ! E.g. if the volume here is set to 40 % EAC will normalise your track (range) to 40 % of original volume and won't report anything !  Even more, when you test your CD in EAC (with [F8]) it will report the peak volume of the tracks to be 40 % while they're actually 100 % (or 34 % for actual 85 %) !!!
It seems that that normalisation is performed at hardware or driver level, so the audio data is processed BEFORE it falls into the "hands" of EAC or CDex.  This rises the problem: if the data is normalised and we don't know it, how can we be sure that it is not equalised, dithered, lowpassed, etc ... If it's so that we CAN't get 100% digital copies of our CD's !

IMPORTANT: to initialise the Control Panel volume settings you have first to run a player that uses it (e.g. WinAmp) and play a cd track. After this you'll stumble over the problem

This was already discussed here:
http://66.96.216.160/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board...&num=1013611268
But the discussion didn't come to anything constructive -> the reason is that we need more people who could check this on their systems (different Windows versions, CD-ROM's, different grabbers,....)

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #1 –
I don´t have that problem... Running Windows XP using my Lite-On LTR24102B and EAC... The ripping doesn´t get effected by the volume settings in the audio control panel...

P.S. I´m using NT´s native CD-ROM interface... Not ASPI...

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #2 –
I don't have that problem either and I must say that I will not put great effort into making me have that problem . I messed around with all the volume settings during and before extraction to no effect.
Using: EAC 0.9b2 | win 2k | external aspi interface | teac 8/4/32 burner

I noticed just now that I'm actually not using the win2k native interface but whatever is installed. Perhaps some version of Adaptec. I really dunno where this came from; Nero perhaps? I never explicitely (sp?) installed any aspi interface. In fact, EAC doesn't recognize my burner when using the native interface (just my regular cd-rom)

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #3 –
Well i can say that I'm not affected either

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #4 –
Well, did you run a cd-player (WinAmp) to initialise those volume settings before running EAC ?

'Cause in my system it's like this:
1) when I boot Windows and run EAC it rips cd at original volume
2) then I run WinAmp and play a cd track
3) when I rip the same track again, the changes in volume appear, EAC reports wrong CRC since previous extraction
4) now I change the volume in CP->Multimedia->CD to a new value, play a random cd track in WinAmp, then rip in EAC again -
EAC now reports (and writes) a new wrong volume and a new wrong CRC.

The main idea of what I wrote above is that the volume setting NEEDS to be initialised by cd-player (WinAmp), before it starts to cause any problems with the rippers. And if I don't run WinAmp, that volume setting doesn't affect EAC at all !

P.S.  I have Asus 40xmax drive and use Windows drivers (not the DOS ones, which were on a floppy with the drive).

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #5 –
Quote
Originally posted by deranger
Well, did you run a cd-player (WinAmp) to initialise those volume settings before running EAC ?

Yes. And yes, I changed the volume to nearly zero. Tracks are fine.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #6 –
Deranger, I think you've been ripping in analog mode or something…

Otherwise, what's happening is just plain f*ed up, and it's unique to your system (most likely a really stupid drive feature), because nobody here is experiencing it.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #7 –
Quote
I noticed just now that I'm actually not using the win2k native interface but whatever is installed. Perhaps some version of Adaptec. I really dunno where this came from; Nero perhaps? I never explicitely (sp?) installed any aspi interface. In fact, EAC doesn't recognize my burner when using the native interface (just my regular cd-rom)


This is exactly what I did with one of my boxes, and have not had any problems (with volume). Interestingly, on the playback box, there is no cd burner, so I have no idea where the ASPI interface came from (m$ probably). The CD-ROM drive didn't come with a driver. My point is that if this is really an issue for you, you might try to reformat/reinstall and do window$ up again...

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #8 –
First, where this volume control comes from ? I've got Windows 98, and there's no volume control nor any "digital playback setting" in the control panel.
Then each soundcard installed had its own volume controls. The CD one being the volume control of the analog plug that is on the soundcard.

I think that your CD volume control is part of a Windows driver that exists only with Windows versions allowing CD digital playback to be enabled from the control panel.
Can people having the "digital playback" setting in the control panel (I don't know where) tell which Windows' got it, if it comes with a volume setting, and if all's well extracting with that volume setting being controlled by a third party CD player ?

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #9 –
digital playback is available on win2k and winxp (control panel->system->device manager->drive properties). however, the volume is controlled by the "normal" cd audio volume setting. with some sound cards, there is also a "cd digital" setting, but it only affects the volume of an internal spdif connector on the card.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #10 –
Quote
Originally posted by macdaddy: (...)I have no idea where the ASPI interface came from (m$ probably). The CD-ROM drive didn't come with a driver. My point is that if this is really an issue for you, you might try to reformat/reinstall and do window$ up again...
Well, since everything works fine in EAC with the "external" aspi driver I never knew of until now, I see no reason to change anything in my setup . No problems extracting cdda here. My hunch is that some burning software installed this without asking.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #11 –
Hi All !

Quote
First, where this volume control comes from ? I've got Windows 98, and there's no volume control

I've got Windows 98 SE (Second Edition) - it's a 1999 version of W98, like Windows 95 OSR 2 was a '96 version of original W95.

Quote
there is also a "cd digital" setting, but it only affects the volume of an internal spdif connector on the card.

Yeah, I was also sure it was ... But I have no spdif connector cable installed !

Quote
nor any "digital playback setting" in the control panel.
It must be one of things added in SE. Btw, this setting's name  may sound different in original English version - I use a russian one 

Quote
Then each soundcard installed had its own volume controls. The CD one being the volume control of the analog plug that is on the soundcard.

The setting available in the taskbar's Volume Control doesn't seem to affect my rips, so no problem here.

Quote
I think you've been ripping in analog mode or something…

No, I rip in secure mode.

P.S. I'll boot with ASUS dos drivers today and see if it will change anything.  Btw, does anybody here also have ASUS S-400 or S-500 drives ?

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #12 –
I agree with NeoRenegade on this one, you (deranger) are ripping in analog mode. I'm almost 100% sure of this.

It's just like when you copy from a CD player to a MiniDisc; if you use something else than an optical/coaxial connection between CD/MiniDisc, you will get an analog copy which is affected by the sound volume you've set on your CD-player.

I don't think Secure/Paranoid/Synchronized/Burst modes in EAC have anything to do with this. Seems like analog/digital access to your CD drive is messed up in some way on your system.

Somebody in this forum brought up the subject of ASPI in this thread. In Audiograbber, you can choose between the ASPI and Analog method of ripping, which draws me to this conclusion: maybe your system lacks an ASPI layer, forcing EAC to rip each CD in analog mode? As far as I know, there isn't any "native" interface on Win98, right? Try downloading and installing the ASPI layer from Adaptec and see if the problem persists.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #13 –
Quote
Originally posted by deranger
The setting available in the taskbar's Volume Control doesn't seem to affect my rips, so no problem here.


So... anyone else with a volume control somewhere for digital playback ???

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #14 –
Yes, I do have to agree with NeoRenegade on this issue. It seems that you are "ripping" using analog mode, this is where you play the sound and then record the sound, thus giving you the effect of volume/dithering change that you have experienced.

Using digital extraction, uses the system ASPI or Native NT interface, to interface and read digital audio from the CD. This is done over the IDE and system bus thus being purely digital.

Using Windows ME, in the CD settings in Control Panel you can also change the way Windows reads audio CDs. You can change it from Digital reading to standard analog reading which requires the cable to be connected from sound card to CD ROM drive, whereas digital reading will work if your CD drive works in Windows (it works depending on how good of a drive you have to "rip" DA off the CD).

On the point of Win98 not having an ASPI layer, which in fact it does. But the ASPI layer included is terribly old, and I suggest everyone upgrade it.

I do not what the problem that you have when you use EAC in secure mode and it modifies the volume of the resulting file. I am suggesting to you to check your system configuration fro digital audio extraction.

Cheers and hope this helps
AgentMil
-=MusePack... Living Audio Compression=-

Honda - The Power of Dreams

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #15 –
I guess it would be very noticable if deranger were ripping in analog mode. Extraction speed = 1.0x and no multi-read error correction. However I haven't yet seen anyone able to reproduce the problem. Maybe try and install the adaptec aspi drivers and use them?

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #16 –
Quote
Originally posted by Pio2001


So... anyone else with a volume control somewhere for digital playback ???


I don't think I've seen that in any of the OSes I've used either (DOS+Win 3.11 and all the way up to Win XP, with the exclusion of Windows NT). Only seen a volume control for analog playback...

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #17 –
Hi All ! Thank U for your support, but ... I've downloaded and installed Adaptec ASPI v.4.70 (it really installed 4.60, btw) and the problem still stays

Maybe I should also try to change a CD driver - by default it is © by Microsoft, 5-5-1999 ? Then  where can I download it ?
There are only old dos drivers on Asustek sites.

Quote
I guess it would be very noticable if deranger were ripping in analog mode. Extraction speed = 1.0x and no multi-read error correction.

Yes, my extraction speeds are usually 4x - 9x ! And error correction works ok !

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #18 –
Hmm, using the method of deduction: it's not the ASPI layer, it's not EAC, it's not any setting in Windows... and apparently not analog ripping...

Leaving two possible solutions (if you still want to use that CD drive), as far as I can see: 1. upgrading the drivers, 2. upgrading the firmware.

For 1, try Windows Update. If no CD driver is reported to be in need of an update, try searching for it manually here: Microsoft Download Center?

Now for 2, go to this page: The firmware page and download and install the firmware that matches your CD drive's make/model exactly.

If you are able to do both a driver update and a firmware update, and it didn't help at all, I'd either contact Asustek and ask them for possible solutions, or I'd just replace the drive. (Contacting Microsoft and asking about a possible new Windows driver might also be a good idea.)

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #19 –
YEEEEEK !!!! :eek:

He's right ! How can I have missed that ?
Exactly where he said, look :

Control Panel / Multimedia / Audio CD / Volume setting !

I can't enable digital playback, and nor Winamp nor this settings have any effect on the sound here. But maybe if I could enable digital reading ...

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #20 –
Hello !

Quote
go to this page: The firmware page and download and install the firmware that matches your CD drive's make/model exactly.

It seems that ASUStek drives are un-firmware-upgradeable
At least there are no firmware for any ASUS devices, including my S-400.

Quote
try Windows Update. If no CD driver is reported to be in need of an update, try searching for it manually here: Microsoft Download Center

I couldn't find anything useful here... Only maybe the poll at their cite where they asked if I liked their service  I asked my queston there, but do you think they can answer it ?

Quote
YEEEEEK !!!! Exactly where he said, look : 

Hi Pio2001, I'm glad you've found it at last

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #21 –
I've made a test using 'Depeche Mode - The Singles '86 - '98', EAC 0.9 Beta 2 and Windows XP. Changing the CD volume from the Control Panel, I ripped the track #11, 'Everything Counts (Live)'. Moving the volume slider from top, mid and bottom produced the same rip, CRC 6348898C and peak level at 98.8% with a quality of 100% .

edit: I've digital extraction activated at the Control Panel.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #22 –
That's not the problem,

Quote
The main idea of what I wrote above is that the volume setting NEEDS to be initialised by cd-player (WinAmp), before it starts to cause any problems with the rippers. And if I don't run WinAmp, that volume setting doesn't affect EAC at all !


You must change the CD volume with Winamp first (default CD input plugin of Winamp 2, I guess)

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #23 –
I tried to do that, but since I'm using the native 'mode' under Windows XP, I must eject the disc after changing the volume with Winamp and before loading EAC. After all that, the rip was OK but I don't know if this procedure doesn't recreate the problem, so I'm going to install an ASPI driver for testing.

Are you sure that your cd-ripper gives you EXACT copies ?

Reply #24 –
Hi !

I've boot DOS and ran some old (made in 1993) cd-ripper.
The result it gave was the same as with  EAC + 100% volume setting.  Well, at least I can be sure that with 100% volume setting my rips are ok ! Or the evil Asus fools me again, this time even under dos...