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Topic: Amp recommendation (Read 20176 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #25 –
Quote from: kode54 on
Why is it a "hidden" link?

Because it is part of the URL, which is hidden.

Quote
The color is different, and there is a faint underline. Hell, quoting the post even makes the BBcode visible in the reply editor.

Yup, that is what I call clear - hidden until one decides to reply to it. NOT!

It is not searchable, and is not visible in the clear text of the page.

That all said, I would hesitate using a Tripath amp as a reference in a DBT due to the fact that IME they have higher than usual distortion within a few dB or clipping, and they can have source impedance issues.

That all said, its not cheap amps that make me fearful - a LM3886 -based amp would be more acceptable.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #26 –
Are links clear enough now? Feel free to go back and check them. If necessary, I can make them color cycle in hues that clash with the current theme, just in case they're not already visible enough.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #27 –
Quote from: kode54 on
Are links clear enough now? Feel free to go back and check them. If necessary, I can make them color cycle in hues that clash with the current theme, just in case they're not already visible enough.

Had that been in place a few days back, there would have been no problem.  Thanks.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #28 –
Quote from: silverprout on
Quote from: Slipstreem on
Try putting your existing amplifier (when it's behaving itself) up against one of these in a properly controlled DBT at sensible listening levels before assuming that spending a fortune is obligatory.

Ignore all subjective reviews as they are all completely meaningless.

I've got one and it sound great !
But i've got a hissing issue when the main pot is above 12h00 with switching PSUs... the PSU choice is critical.

But now, you also have this one with a Texas Instruments chip :
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/Breeze-Audio-HIFI-2-0-stereophonic-digital-power-amplifier-TPA-3116-High-price-material-version-50WX2/32771154570.html?spm=2114.06010108.8.5.mJ5H8B

And it have the beautiful thick aluminium enclosure for 20$


Does that box say Sperkers instead of Speakers? That's quite a mistake!

At this moment I have B&W CM10 s2 speakers. The 20 watt amp is under the minimum recommended amp power. I'm not willing to risk my tweeters on the €3600 speakers because of overloading the amp.

Right now I'm satisfied with the setup I have now.

I have bi-amped the speakers, for the simple reason that overloading the low end section can normally kill the tweeter (square waves). Using a separate amp will reduce the risk. The main transformer is the same, but the amps are separate.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Fairy on

At this moment I have B&W CM10 s2 speakers. The 20 watt amp is under the minimum recommended amp power. I'm not willing to risk my tweeters on the €3600 speakers because of overloading the amp.


I have bi-amped the speakers, for the simple reason that overloading the low end section can normally kill the tweeter (square waves). Using a separate amp will reduce the risk. The main transformer is the same, but the amps are separate.


I hope that you are aware that the self-serving story that is told by dealers and reviewers (reviewers are just salesmen with a different job title) ab out too-small amplifiers damaging tweeters is an audiophile myth.

It sounds like a believable story and I have to admit that I gave it credibility until I had a chance to test it out. As it usually works out, it is almost always a myth and often reality is the exact reverse of it.

The basic idea is that a too small amplifier will clip at a level that will produce square waves that are full of harmonics and the harmonics will burn out or at least damage delicate tweeters in high quality speaker systems.

How many ways is this wrong?

First off, tweeters have become far more robust for several reasons:

(1) Improved materials, particularly the adhesives used to glue them together.
(2) A sea change in selling audio which resulted in a increased emphasis on reliability. One word: Warranties, and three words:  relaxed return policies.
(3) Crossovers with higher slopes becoming more common, keeping LF out of the tweeters.
(4) General forward motion of technology - more experience leads to more wisdom and better practices.
(5) Digital recordings don't have the inherent high frequency dynamic limits of analog media, so recordings whose contents stress the tweeters more are much more common.

Secondly, the basic premise that a clipped wave will always have more high frequency content than program material off of media can be false.  As recordings because more compressed, and the music became more errr, modern...  We can easily encounter recordings that have more high frequency content than a square ware. For example, we have recordings that are clipped as played, so if clipped music damages tweeters it can easily happen no matter how powerful the amplifier is. 

Thirdly, the very idea that a much smaller amplifier is somehow more likely to damage speakers than a far larger amplifier seems wrong, just based on common sense.  Fact is that in the days of tubes it was the rare power amp or receiver that put out more than 50 watts, and 20 watts or so was a common max.  Saying that an amp with less than 30 watts actual clean output will damage speakers is a lot like saying "Don't use this speaker with tubed amps", and when did you ever hear someone say that?

Here is reality: Powerful amplifiers with operators that are somehow insensitive to bad sound are what burns out speakers.  A speaker generally starts sounding bad when you stress it hard enough to damage it.  Onecommon  way that speakers get damaged is systems with overly powerful amplifiers and a slip of the fingers operating the volume control, or someone hot-plugging equipment (intentionally or not) etc.

The idea that too small amplifiers are dangerous because they have an abnormally strong tendency to fry speakers is a myth.  There are some isolated boundary conditions where it can happen, but in general fried speakers are the results of amplifiers with excessive power.




Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #31 –
Quote from: silverprout on
Size is a nonsense today.
A modern chipamp is able to deliver 600W RMS and can handle 17 Amps of current in a package of 6mm x14mm
http://www.ti.com/product/tpa3255/datasheet



Interestingly enough there is nothing on the web that I can find about either professional or amateur use of this part.  TI has a number of papers about it.  Their notes about output filter design seem especially good, but they make the point about how critical this part of the system can become.

There is an Australian amateur's article about someone who used the lower-power predecessor TPA3251 , but it seems to have very low technical content. TPA 3251 DIY project ovderview

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Interestingly enough there is nothing on the web that I can find about either professional or amateur use of this part.  TI has a number of papers about it.  Their notes about output filter design seem especially good, but they make the point about how critical this part of the system can become.There is an Australian amateur's article about someone who used the lower-power predecessor TPA3251 , but it seems to have very low technical content. TPA 3251 DIY project ovderview

These chips are extremely powerfull and the market target seems blurry...
Who needs 175W or 350W with a 12V supply except for car audio... but not enough powerfull for them IMHO.
In a normal domestic room a small TPA3110 is often enough and it operates filterless, i've bought one stereo amp on ebay 1.40$  :D

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #33 –
Quote from: silverprout on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Interestingly enough there is nothing on the web that I can find about either professional or amateur use of this part.  TI has a number of papers about it.  Their notes about output filter design seem especially good, but they make the point about how critical this part of the system can become.There is an Australian amateur's article about someone who used the lower-power predecessor TPA3251 , but it seems to have very low technical content. TPA 3251 DIY project ovderview

These chips are extremely powerfull and the market target seems blurry...
Who needs 175W or 350W with a 12V supply except for car audio... but not enough powerfull for them IMHO.
In a normal domestic room a small TPA3110 is often enough and it operates filterless, i've bought one stereo amp on ebay 1.40$  :D

Looking at the data sheets, these are hardly limited to 12 volts. More like VCC = 56 volts may be the limit.

And, if pushed hard, they aren't the totally cleanest items around, so using them derated might give better numbers, if not better sound.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: silverprout on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Interestingly enough there is nothing on the web that I can find about either professional or amateur use of this part.  TI has a number of papers about it.  Their notes about output filter design seem especially good, but they make the point about how critical this part of the system can become.There is an Australian amateur's article about someone who used the lower-power predecessor TPA3251 , but it seems to have very low technical content. TPA 3251 DIY project ovderview

These chips are extremely powerfull and the market target seems blurry...
Who needs 175W or 350W with a 12V supply except for car audio... but not enough powerfull for them IMHO.
In a normal domestic room a small TPA3110 is often enough and it operates filterless, i've bought one stereo amp on ebay 1.40$  :D
Looking at the data sheets, these are hardly limited to 12 volts. More like VCC = 56 volts may be the limit.
And, if pushed hard, they aren't the totally cleanest items around, so using them derated might give better numbers, if not better sound.

I've upgraded my TPA 3110 to the TPA3118 (2,6$) and finally upgraded to the TDA8932 (3,51$) in order to have balanced inputs without any modifications... i'm going on the expensive side 8)
The circuit that you've mentionned before seems to me to be an extreme component choice. The small ebay amplifiers coil filters are able to keep their inductance in the 5% range on the whole chipamp intensity capability, it seems perfectly sized.
I've probably need some explanations about why some people choose gigantic (amp rating) coils when the small cheap ebay chipamps coils are able to keep their inductance really well in the tolerances above 4A when the TDA8932 intensity protection shutdown is under 4A.
 

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #35 –
Quote from: silverprout on

In a normal domestic room a small TPA3110 is often enough and it operates filterless, i've bought one stereo amp on ebay 1.40$  :D

Looking at the data sheets, these are hardly limited to 12 volts. More like VCC = 56 volts may be the limit.
And, if pushed hard, they aren't the totally cleanest items around, so using them derated might give better numbers, if not better sound.
I've upgraded my TPA 3110 to the TPA3118 (2,6$) and finally upgraded to the TDA8932 (3,51$) in order to have balanced inputs without any modifications... i'm going on the expensive side 8)
The circuit that you've mentionned before seems to me to be an extreme component choice. The small ebay amplifiers coil filters are able to keep their inductance in the 5% range on the whole chipamp intensity capability, it seems perfectly sized.
I've probably need some explanations about why some people choose gigantic (amp rating) coils when the small cheap ebay chipamps coils are able to keep their inductance really well in the tolerances above 4A when the TDA8932 intensity protection shutdown is under 4A.

My first foray into the low cost, low power chip amp world is one of those eBay "TDA7492P-50W-50W-Bluetooth-4-0-Audio-Receiver-Digital-Amplifier-Board-case" that sell for about $15 assembled including a slick little clear plastic case.  I added a 12 volt 5 amp switchmode power supply cord wart (eBay, < $7).  The rest of the system is BT music being sent from a Samsung S5 cell phone that I rescued from the family junk pile, legally jail broke, and loaded up with a 32 GB uSD card with a few thousand high-bitrate MP3 files that I made from my CDs.  The speakers right now are a pair of legacy Radio Shack 40-5000 Mini-Maximus metal enclosure speakers with the Audax clone plastic cone/dome tweeters.  Probably the best tunes for dollar ration I've ever owned.


Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #37 –
Quote from: silverprout on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Audax clone plastic cone/dome tweeters

Vintage old French loudspeakers drivers  8)  witch model please  :D  ?

The drivers are marked "D7 Malaysia". They resemble the current  Audax TW010E1.

In the day there were many versions of this well-engineered highly inexpensive tweeter ($2-3), best known to me as the TW-80.

Back in the day they were mercilessly cloned all over the Pacific rim. The one in my speakers appears to be a Malaysian clone.

Harmon bought Audax and then they temporarily suspended selling bare drivers, but I see that they are back at it at places like Madisound.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Harmon bought Audax and then they temporarily suspended selling bare drivers, but I see that they are back at it at places like Madisound.

You should avoid sibilant voices with theses small mylar tweeters... it's painful ::) , but amazing with grainy baritones :D
Theses models had been deveolpped as an alternative cheap choice for entry level loudspeakers, the classic 1' domes are better but also very boring sometimes.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #39 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Quote from: Fairy on
I see many amplifiers that have great reviews, but they are like 60 watts. I think my speakers need at least a 100 watt amplifier, or am I totally wrong there?

You don't need nearly as much power as you think you do. As an example, If the sensitivity rating of your speakers is 90dB/1W@1M, that's ~108dB at normal listening distance (2 meters) from 60 watts. And that would be continuous output, the peak output could be as much as 100 watts or more, which would peak at 110dB at the same distance, way louder than any reasonable person would or should be playing in their home.

Most people barely use 10 watts from their amplifiers, at normal-to-loud listening levels.

Quote from: Fairy on
I'd like to keep under the 1000 euro's if possible. Does something like that exist?

I have been looking at the NAD S300 2n hand, but I really have no idea what to buy. There are so many brands around...
There is always that risk to buy an amp 2n hand without any guarantees.......

For €1000 you could get a very nice amplfier brand new, such as an NAD C356 or C375, which have more power than you will probably ever need. You could even get the C368 "hybrid digital" model, if you want something a little more modern technology-wise.

Or one of Yamaha's very nice stereo amplifiers, with their beautiful brushed aluminium fronts.

I've made the decision and went to the store where I recently bought my CM10 s2's. They provided me with VERY good aftersales. I had a bad tweeter in my new speaker and they fixed it at my home for free (the store is 60kilometers away from my house!). When I asked some info on a TV wallmount I got a brand new one for free that he had sitting in his vehice.

Ontopic: I went to the store because I was interested in a Rotel amp, but went home with NAD C388 amplifier. Couldn't be happier!
No nonsense amplifier, just a few buttons, nice screen, Hypex amps, plenty of inputs and Bluetooth connection (Apt-x) + app.

Way more power than I ever need with 150w+150w, but I wanted something futureproof!

Nice thing to see it is almost fully digital and very efficient. Idling at 24 watts (My denon was 80 watts). Even after playing quite loud for a long time it stays cold to the touch. Also the power draw barely rises when playing music loud.

The only negative thing I found was that with the app you have a volume slider and you can accidently swipe that to full blast so easy. I reported that to NAD and they passed that comment to development. Also the app doesn't work on my smartphone (Tried Samsung S5 and S6) but works fine on a tablet. Bluetooth works fine any time (Laptop, HTPC, Phone, Tablet you name it).

I got rid of the BI-AMP cables. The NAD is very straightforward. BI-Wiring is possible (A+B) but in my opinion that's nonsense, also there is a risk someone other than me operating the amp and accidently turning off the woofers and blowing my tweeters, no thanks :) The only thing I miss from my Denon was, with the Denon I could set a maximum dB volume level. The NAD can go all the way up, but via the remote control this goes very smooth and a bit slow.

Now I'm waiting for the delivery if the USB > SP-DIF unit.  The onboard SPDIF on my HTPC is not okay. Sometimes I start a song and I get a lot of static noise mixed in. Restarting the song and it's over.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Fairy on
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Quote from: Fairy on
I see many amplifiers that have great reviews, but they are like 60 watts. I think my speakers need at least a 100 watt amplifier, or am I totally wrong there?

You don't need nearly as much power as you think you do. As an example, If the sensitivity rating of your speakers is 90dB/1W@1M, that's ~108dB at normal listening distance (2 meters) from 60 watts. And that would be continuous output, the peak output could be as much as 100 watts or more, which would peak at 110dB at the same distance, way louder than any reasonable person would or should be playing in their home.

Most people barely use 10 watts from their amplifiers, at normal-to-loud listening levels.

Quote from: Fairy on
I'd like to keep under the 1000 euro's if possible. Does something like that exist?

I have been looking at the NAD S300 2n hand, but I really have no idea what to buy. There are so many brands around...
There is always that risk to buy an amp 2n hand without any guarantees.......

For €1000 you could get a very nice amplfier brand new, such as an NAD C356 or C375, which have more power than you will probably ever need. You could even get the C368 "hybrid digital" model, if you want something a little more modern technology-wise.

Or one of Yamaha's very nice stereo amplifiers, with their beautiful brushed aluminium fronts.

I've made the decision and went to the store where I recently bought my CM10 s2's. They provided me with VERY good aftersales. I had a bad tweeter in my new speaker and they fixed it at my home for free (the store is 60kilometers away from my house!). When I asked some info on a TV wallmount I got a brand new one for free that he had sitting in his vehice.

Ontopic: I went to the store because I was interested in a Rotel amp, but went home with NAD C388 amplifier. Couldn't be happier!
No nonsense amplifier, just a few buttons, nice screen, Hypex amps, plenty of inputs and Bluetooth connection (Apt-x) + app.

Way more power than I ever need with 150w+150w, but I wanted something futureproof!

Nice thing to see it is almost fully digital and very efficient. Idling at 24 watts (My denon was 80 watts). Even after playing quite loud for a long time it stays cold to the touch. Also the power draw barely rises when playing music loud.

The only negative thing I found was that with the app you have a volume slider and you can accidently swipe that to full blast so easy. I reported that to NAD and they passed that comment to development. Also the app doesn't work on my smartphone (Tried Samsung S5 and S6) but works fine on a tablet. Bluetooth works fine any time (Laptop, HTPC, Phone, Tablet you name it).

I got rid of the BI-AMP cables. The NAD is very straightforward. BI-Wiring is possible (A+B) but in my opinion that's nonsense, also there is a risk someone other than me operating the amp and accidently turning off the woofers and blowing my tweeters, no thanks :) The only thing I miss from my Denon was, with the Denon I could set a maximum dB volume level. The NAD can go all the way up, but via the remote control this goes very smooth and a bit slow.

Now I'm waiting for the delivery if the USB > SP-DIF unit.  The onboard SPDIF on my HTPC is not okay. Sometimes I start a song and I get a lot of static noise mixed in. Restarting the song and it's over.

Listen to the music is boring, playing with it is more fun... but only when you know the rules.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #41 –
Quote from: silverprout on
Listen to the music is boring, playing with it is more fun... but only when you know the rules.

Why boring? When you have reached a certain point where every fractional improvement is very expensive and you have tried every different setup, at some moment you're fine with it.

I've at some point made the decision to buy the C388 knowing that it does it's thing, is high quality and has 3 simple parameters (Balance, Bass, Treble, which I switched off) and that all other things that can influence sound is gone, just digital input and the amplifier does it's thing. Gave me a lot peace of mind now. Only tweakable things I have left are acoustics and good/bad music. In that area there are some tweaks to be made in my living room. But I already have a fairly good room acousticwise :) .

Given the amount of time I can enjoy music (I have 2 little kids) I'm totally fine with my decision.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Fairy on
I've at some point made the decision to buy the C388 knowing that it does it's thing, is high quality and has 3 simple parameters (Balance, Bass, Treble, which I switched off) and that all other things that can influence sound is gone, just digital input and the amplifier does it's thing.

I guess you have somehow managed to listen by some means that don't involve loudspeakers. IEMs. headphones or earphones? If you still use those things, then every time you think about the sound quality of your system you should reflect on the fact that they are the majority of the actual audible influences on what you hear.

All the things mentioned above are trivial in comparison. To be as clear as possible the audible sound quality differences due to amplifiers. preamplifiers DACs and the like are generally trivial in comparison. That's not just one man's opinion, it is a well-known scientific fact whose relevance and truth has been demonstrated many times to many people.

[qutoe]
 Gave me a lot peace of mind now.
[/quote]

A false sense of security, it would seem.

Quote
Only tweakable things I have left are acoustics and good/bad music. In that area there are some tweaks to be made in my living room. But I already have a fairly good room acousticwise :) .

There are some tweaks? LOL!  You forgot about your speakers, which are el-crapola in terms of performance compared to the typical run of DACs and amps.  They are not all that good on in the world of speakers, having no bass response or well-designed directivity control.

If you haven't noticed, the world of high end speakers is dominated by essentially one speaker design. It's a 4-8" woofer and a dome tweeter that are not all that different from where technology was when these devices last received their last large scale redesign which was in the 1970s or so.

Quote
Given the amount of time I can enjoy music (I have 2 little kids) I'm totally fine with my decision.

That's good, but misses a long list s of relevant points.