HydrogenAudio

Hydrogenaudio Forum => Listening Tests => Topic started by: rjamorim on 2003-06-04 22:53:38

Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-04 22:53:38
I just started a new public listening test.
Addition: a specific web site for the test has been created: http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/ (http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/)

The purpose is to find what encoder performs best encoding AAC at 128kbps

The encoders and parameters tested are:
Psytel AACenc 2.15  -br 128
Ahead/Nero 5.5.10.35  128kbps CBR, high quality
Sorenson Squeeze 3.5 (FhG Pro) 128kbps
Apple QuickTime 6.3 (Dolby) 128kbps high quality
FAAC 1.17b -a 64  (64kbps/channel)

--Who should take the test?

Anyone interested in AAC quality, or people that have no interest but would like to help making this test better.
You don't need excellent hearing, but some good gear is welcome (headphones are must-have).

--How do I take the test?

Download ABC/HR + the readme file here (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/abc-hr.zip) or here (http://audio.ciara.us/rarewares/abc-hr.zip). If you already have ABC/HR, get the readme here (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/Readme.txt).
Further instructions, and links to the sample packages, are inside the readme.

For people using BitTorrent: I strongly suggest you download using it.
The torrents are available here:
http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/ (http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/)
It would help me save bandwidth and you will probably download faster too

The average size of the sample packages is 4Mb. It sums to 47Mb, all the 12 packages.

Edit: For those that already downloaded packages, read here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=2&t=10107&st=25&#entry102177)

--I'm on Linux/MacOS/something other than Windows. Can I take the test?

You can. But you won't be able to use the ABC/HR utility, that is Win32 only. Since the reference file must be hidden (That's the HR in the name), tests performed without it wouldn't be valid. So, I can't plot your scores against others. But your comments on sample quality and artifacts would still be welcome.

--When will the test finish?

The test is scheduled to end on June 15. This date may be extended if proved necessary.

If you have any other question, please post in this thread.

Thank-you very much,

Roberto.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-04 22:55:38
Just something I think should be clarified:

Don't post your test results before the test is finished

For several reasons, that practice would be harmful to the test.

Thanks for understanding.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Frank Klemm on 2003-06-04 23:28:28
Why are links nearly invisible? I setup Mozilla to display links as underlined blue text, but in HA it is only underlined and
gray like the rest of the text.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-04 23:37:01
Quote
Why are links nearly invisible? I setup Mozilla to display links as underlined blue text, but in HA it is only underlined and
gray like the rest of the text.

Here are the full links, if someone is having problem with the "here"s

ABC/HR: http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/abc-hr.zip (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/abc-hr.zip)  or
http://audio.ciara.us/rarewares/abc-hr.zip (http://audio.ciara.us/rarewares/abc-hr.zip)

Readme: http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/Readme.txt (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/Readme.txt)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Dibrom on 2003-06-04 23:57:01
.torrent's of all the files:

http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/ (http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: JohnV on 2003-06-05 00:10:57
Quote
.torrent's of all the files:

http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/ (http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/)

A BitTorrent client is really a simple plugin application that enables your Windows, OS/X, or Unix/Linux machine to participate in swarms. These swarms of traffic facilitate file sharing.

The simplest .torrent client for Windows:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/bittorr....1.exe?download (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/bittorrent/bittorrent-3.2.1.exe?download)
Just install it and you should be able to download from the torrent links using your browser.

More advanced client:
http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/ (http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Dibrom on 2003-06-05 00:12:48
Quote
Quote
.torrent's of all the files:

http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/ (http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/)

A BitTorrent client is really a simple plugin application that enables your Windows, OS/X, or Unix/Linux machine to participate in swarms. These swarms of traffic facilitate file sharing.

The simplest .torrent client for Windows:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/bittorr....1.exe?download (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/bittorrent/bittorrent-3.2.1.exe?download)
Just install it and you should be able to download from the torrent links.

Oh, and if you want to do this and help share the bandwidth burden, please leave the download client open after it finishes.  This creates a torrent "seed" which is what helps to propogate the file throughout the swarm.  The more seeds, the faster everyone downloads.

If you want to create a perminent "mirror" of the files without having 12 seperate download boxes open, you can either download: http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/ (http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/) and point the incoming dir to where your .torrents are, then attempt to start downloading them again (overwritting the old ones), and this will create seeds and share the files.  The other option is to download the bittorrent sources ( http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html (http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html) ), making sure to have python installed on your system, and launch "btlaunchmany.py <somedir>" or "btlaunchmanycurses.py <somedir>" on the dir with all the .torrents.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: SometimesWarrior on 2003-06-05 00:52:00
Any way to provide a random link generator (of the 13 .torrent's) so that all the samples get an equal number of tests?

Also, are these .torrent's the only way to download the files right now?
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: SometimesWarrior on 2003-06-05 00:59:48
Quote
If you want to create a perminent "mirror" of the files without having 12 seperate download boxes open, you can either download: http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/ (http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/) and point the incoming dir to where your .torrents are, then attempt to start downloading them again (overwritting the old ones), and this will create seeds and share the files. 

I downloaded BT++ v0.5.4, set the Incoming dir to where the .torrent's already are, did Add Torrent -> from URL (and pasted the ha.org url), but nothing seemed to happen when I clicked OK. Nothing listed under Transfers or History. Will this program work properly if I'm behind a firewall, or do I have to open some ports?
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-05 01:02:26
Quote
Any way to provide a random link generator (of the 13 .torrent's) so that all the samples get an equal number of tests?


Unfortunately, I think it's too late now to come with such solution. Hopefully, people will pick up samples randomly, and whenever possible pick them all.

BTW, there are 12 torrents.

Quote
Also, are these .torrent's the only way to download the files right now?


The links to download the .zip files form a server are inside the readme file.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Dibrom on 2003-06-05 01:09:35
Quote
Quote
If you want to create a perminent "mirror" of the files without having 12 seperate download boxes open, you can either download: http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/ (http://btplusplus.sourceforge.net/) and point the incoming dir to where your .torrents are, then attempt to start downloading them again (overwritting the old ones), and this will create seeds and share the files. 

I downloaded BT++ v0.5.4, set the Incoming dir to where the .torrent's already are, did Add Torrent -> from URL (and pasted the ha.org url), but nothing seemed to happen when I clicked OK. Nothing listed under Transfers or History. Will this program work properly if I'm behind a firewall, or do I have to open some ports?

You need to open some ports probably (from the faq: http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/FAQ.html (http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/FAQ.html) ):

Quote
I'm behind a firewall/NAT, can I use BitTorrent?

    Yes, but you will get better performance if other peers can connect to you. By default, BitTorrent listens on port 6881, trying incrementially higher ports if it's unable to bind. It gives up after 6889 (the port range is configurable.) It's up to you to figure out how to poke a hole in your firewall/NAT.


For more info you might try:

http://www.filesoup.com/faq.html (http://www.filesoup.com/faq.html)

or

http://smiler.no-ip.org/BT/BTFAQ.php (http://smiler.no-ip.org/BT/BTFAQ.php)

or

http://smiler.no-ip.org/BT/BTTutorial.php (http://smiler.no-ip.org/BT/BTTutorial.php)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: SometimesWarrior on 2003-06-05 01:22:35
Quote
Unfortunately, I think it's too late now to come with such solution. Hopefully, people will pick up samples randomly, and whenever possible pick them all.

BTW, there are 12 torrents.

Whoops, too many programming assignments... I start all my counts at zero now.

Quote
Quote
Also, are these .torrent's the only way to download the files right now?

The links to download the .zip files form a server are inside the readme file.

It turns out, the BitTorrent client is actually pleasing to use; I was foolishly expecting it to be something obtrusive, although I should have higher expectations of the HA admins. It's very transparent! What a nice implementation of  distributed downloading. Plus, the author looks eerily like a friend of mine.

Quote
You need to open some ports probably.

Okay, the original BitTorrent client was showing some upload activity before did anything to the firewall, but I opened the ports anyway.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-05 09:38:02
All done and sent.

Takes about 2hrs for all samples, more if you want to be more carefull.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: SometimesWarrior on 2003-06-05 11:20:45
Quote
All done and sent.

Takes about 2hrs for all samples, more if you want to be more carefull.

It took me two hours to do two samples! Some of those are really hard to ABX... I refuse to admit that 128kbps can ever be transparent! 
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: unit22 on 2003-06-05 12:22:11
Quote
But your comments on sample quality and artifacts would still be welcome.

All samples # 3 did not work on a Mac with QT 6.3 Pro
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Paspro on 2003-06-05 15:14:16
Done and e-mailed.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: BadHorsie on 2003-06-05 15:27:05
Quote
Why are links nearly invisible? I setup Mozilla to display links as underlined blue text, but in HA it is only underlined and
gray like the rest of the text.

... maybe stylesheets? 

line 19 and 20 to be more specific.

BadHorsie
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Caleb on 2003-06-05 16:05:08
Quote
Why are links nearly invisible? I setup Mozilla to display links as underlined blue text, but in HA it is only underlined and
gray like the rest of the text.

I think it's because Mozilla can't (or won't) override CSS that this forum uses.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: danchr on 2003-06-05 16:47:20
Quote
--I'm on Linux/MacOS/something other than Windows. Can I take the test?

You can. But you won't be able to use the ABC/HR utility, that is Win32 only. Since the reference file must be hidden (That's the HR in the name), tests performed without it wouldn't be valid. So, I can't plot your scores against others. But your comments on sample quality and artifacts would still be welcome.

Good things come to those who wait  Summer vacations are coming up, and depending on how much time is spent on design and doing it The Right Way, I refuse to believe that writing an ABC/HR app could take much more than a day to a week
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-05 17:27:01
Quote
Good things come to those who wait  Summer vacations are coming up, and depending on how much time is spent on design and doing it The Right Way, I refuse to believe that writing an ABC/HR app could take much more than a day to a week

That would surely be extremely welcome, Dan.

Looking forward to that.

@everyone that already sent me test results: thanks a lot.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-05 21:34:08
Quote
All samples # 3 did not work on a Mac with QT 6.3 Pro

Yeah, QT for Win chokes on them here too.

I recently added a FAAD2 OSX compile to RareWares. I suggest you try it, it will probably work.

http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/faad_OSX.tgz (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/faad_OSX.tgz)

Thanks to the fella that compiled this and prefers to remain anonymous (you know who you are)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: robert on 2003-06-05 21:41:55
Quote
Yeah, QT for Win chokes on them here too.

oh boy, every time you talk about QT I get fooled again.
me thinking of Qt (http://www.trolltech.com)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-06 01:14:57
Quote
oh boy, every time you talk about QT I get fooled again.
me thinking of Qt (http://www.trolltech.com)

Hehe. Sorry. 

A request: Is there any Slashdot insider here?

I would be very grateful if someone can post there about this test, and link to this page:

http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/ (http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/)

Thank-you

Roberto.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ExUser on 2003-06-06 01:21:52
Quote
I think it's because Mozilla can't (or won't) override CSS that this forum uses.

Doesn't "!important" work?
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: den on 2003-06-06 03:40:04
Sorry to ask this so late into the test, but...

Quote
The encoders and parameters tested are:
Psytel AACenc 2.15 -br 128


Why this, and not aacenc -streaming instead? 

The tested option shows a high frequency cut off at 15505 Hz, while the -streaming cuts off at 18500 Hz. Also, isn't the general opinion to go for VBR rather than CBR? 

I guess I'm showing my ignorance of most things AAC here, and perhaps the above is chosen to provide a level playing field amongst all the encoders, but aren't you looking for the best available AAC at around the 128 kbit mark? Certainly in my own testing, aacenc always gets close to 128 kbit with the -streaming profile.

Or perhaps -br 128 is the best choice with aacenc rather than -streaming quality wise?

I'm a little confused.

Den.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-06 04:14:16
Indeed, VBR is best for AAC.

But using VBR profiles leads to issue of fairness. The most obvious is that CBR can't theoretically compete with VBR.

Besides, sometimes the same VBR profile can end outputting 100kbps on a sample, 150 on other.  Now, comparing 150 to 128 to 100 is kinda useless. "Yeah, Psytel at 150 is better than QuickTime at 128. So what? Can it compete toe-to-toe?"

It's like when people criticized you because you were comparing Wavpack at 280 versus MPC at 190  (or something like that)

The proverbial apples vs. oranges.


now - I plan to extend this test later, comparing the best AAC encoder vs. MPC, Vorbis, MP3 and WMA. If the winner is a CBR-only codec, like SOrenson or QuickTime, we have a problem - it's unfair to compare it to MPC, that is VBR-only. So, I would end up taking this CBR winner and conduct a quick test against the highest-ranked VBR-capable encoder. And hope the VBR encodes win. >_<

But those are still just plans, and I'm working with JohnV to figure all that out.

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: den on 2003-06-06 06:31:18
Thanks Roberto. Makes sense, level playing field and all that.

Congrats on organising the test. Good stuff!

Apples and oranges, apples and oranges... It's all coming back to me now.

Den.  >_<
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-06 06:55:35
[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']I'm a moron[/span]

Damn. ff123 just brought to my attention that the offsets haven't been corrected, therefore some people might have taken offset-induced artifacts as encoder artifacts (what's a flaw in the test, of course)

I take full responsability in the error, and I'm very sorry.

Some people might have to take the test again, else their results can't be usable (I'll get in touch with each one of you through e-mail. Again, very sorry). Some others seem to have ignored the offset issues and concentrated on encoder artifacs, fortunately.

New packages with corrected config files are being uploaded to the server.

For those that already downloaded the packages, you don't need to download the corrected ones - just download this file and decompress it on ABC/HR's directory, overwriting the faulty configs:
http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/newconfigs.zip (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/newconfigs.zip)

heh, maybe I was hoping too much to have the first listening test I conduced error free. Living and learning...

Thanks a lot for your support and, once again (for the last time), my apologies.

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Gecko on 2003-06-06 16:07:22
All done, results sent. I only tested one sample set without offset correction (but I didn't notice).

I would be very interested in the follow-up high quality test.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Anacondo on 2003-06-06 23:35:00
Quote
--I'm on Linux/MacOS/something other than Windows. Can I take the test?  You can. But you won't be able to use the ABC/HR utility, that is Win32 only. Since the reference file must be hidden (That's the HR in the name), tests performed without it wouldn't be valid. So, I can't plot your scores against others. But your comments on sample quality and artifacts would still be welcome.


I've just come across with this: http://www.beryllium.net/~remco/linabx/ (http://www.beryllium.net/~remco/linabx/)

Then I remembered this test and the Linux issue, so maybe someone might find it useful. I haven't tried it myself, but looks good. It seems to be based on PCABX.

Cheers.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-07 11:57:11
My results are trickling in (7 so far).  How are you doing for listeners?  You'll probably want at least a dozen results per sample.  It would probably be much nicer if the number of listeners was double that or more.

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-07 12:16:50
Quote
I've just come across with this: http://www.beryllium.net/~remco/linabx/ (http://www.beryllium.net/~remco/linabx/)

Then I remembered this test and the Linux issue, so maybe someone might find it useful. I haven't tried it myself, but looks good. It seems to be based on PCABX.

There's a very good ABX program for Linux included with LAME.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-07 14:23:36
Quote
My results are trickling in (7 so far).  How are you doing for listeners?  You'll probably want at least a dozen results per sample.  It would probably be much nicer if the number of listeners was double that or more.

So far, 5 people answered with full result sets, and 3 with partial results.

Also, some people said they would take their time and answer next week.

Hopefully, people will have some free time this weekend to participate in the test, at least with some of the samples.

Thanks a lot to everyone that participated so far.

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ErikS on 2003-06-07 16:04:30
Yes, we do have more time for fun like this now... Just started today with two of them.

But what's wrong with the software? In the ABX window when having played one part many times I get a click at the end of the selection. It goes away if I change the slider slightly but comes back after a couple of times more. I would rate this bug as "Very annoying" on that scale.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-07 19:17:11
Quote
Yes, we do have more time for fun like this now... Just started today with two of them.

But what's wrong with the software? In the ABX window when having played one part many times I get a click at the end of the selection. It goes away if I change the slider slightly but comes back after a couple of times more. I would rate this bug as "Very annoying" on that scale.

EricS,

Can you PM me with the name of the song, and which codec number it is?  I'll try to see if I can duplicate this on my machine.  Also the particular starting and ending times you were using.  In the ABX window, which side was the sample and which side was the reference?

If this clicking happens with every song, and with every codec, and no matter what portion you've selected, etc., just reply to this thread.

How many times do you have to play the part before it starts clicking?

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ErikS on 2003-06-08 02:54:32
It happened with both samples I have tried so far. And no matter which selection I was playing. It came after around say 30-50 switches in the abx window. And once it was there and after I changed the selection slightly to make it go away temporarily, it came back sooner - maybe 10-15 switches. I had B set to the reference. Have a TB Santa Cruz if that helps any...

I'll send you a PM if I can find out something more about  it.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-08 03:13:35
Quote
It happened with both samples I have tried so far. And no matter which selection I was playing. It came after around say 30-50 switches in the abx window. And once it was there and after I changed the selection slightly to make it go away temporarily, it came back sooner - maybe 10-15 switches. I had B set to the reference. Have a TB Santa Cruz if that helps any...

I'll send you a PM if I can find out something more about  it.

So you're switching between A, B, and X, and after 30 to 50 times of pressing any one of these buttons, you start to hear clicking, is that right?

Have you tried something similar using PCABX?  If it happens with that program, it might not be related to ABC/HR.

I will try it out now to see what happens on my machine.

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-08 03:56:17
I can't verify the problem.  I made a small selection of about 1 second and played it all the way through without pressing the stop button.  Then I just hit A, B, or X, 50 or more times.  Does this approximate what you're doing?

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-08 06:32:10
EricS,

One thing you might try for troubleshooting:  change all the offsets to 0 (there should be two in each of the new config files which are not 0).  Perhaps the clicking is related to or caused by the offset processing ABC/HR does.

Another thing to try:  does the clicking happen when you switch many times in the main (abc/hr) window, or just in the abx window?

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ErikS on 2003-06-08 11:04:56
Ok. It turned out to be an error by me. So these last few messages can safely be ignored/removed...
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: AndyMutz on 2003-06-08 12:17:14
i'm downloading the sample files right now and i will conduct the test past the next few days

btw, i'm not new to this forum, i'm just not posting anything

-andy-
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: guruboolez on 2003-06-09 01:00:53
Quote
Hopefully, people will have some free time this weekend to participate in the test, at least with some of the samples.

Found time today. I sent you result  , and some comments  . I hope you can take a look to them. Anyway, thank you for this test. We need to have clear ideas on the quality reached by the publicly available aac/mp4 codec.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-09 13:40:25
Bump
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: askoff on 2003-06-09 16:15:12
So when can we expect to see some results?
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-09 16:40:34
Quote
So when can we expect to see some results?

According to the first post, next Sunday.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 02:20:12
I'd like to thank whoever posted about the test on slashdot.

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?...tid=141&tid=188 (http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/09/2249239&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: mpcfiend on 2003-06-10 03:09:50
Quote
I'd like to thank whoever posted about the test on slashdot.


On behalf of Dibrom, or the community?

Slashdottings are not fun. 
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 03:11:35
Quote
On behalf of Dibrom, or the community?

Slashdottings are not fun.  

In behalf of the test, of course. Test quality will increase if more people participate in it.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Dibrom on 2003-06-10 03:41:00
Just a few of the gems so far in the /. comments

http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl...031&cid=6157272 (http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&cid=6157272)
http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl...031&cid=6157415 (http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&cid=6157415)
http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl...031&cid=6157454 (http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&cid=6157454)
http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl...031&cid=6157462 (http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&cid=6157462)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 03:53:07
Great ones. But I think the winner is link #2
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: tangent on 2003-06-10 04:06:48
damnit, where are my mod points when i need them...
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Delirium on 2003-06-10 04:06:51
My favorite:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&...ead&cid=6157145 (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&threshold=-1&commentsort=3&tid=141&tid=188&mode=thread&cid=6157145)

"Whenever I rip a CD, I encode it into mathematically loseless MP3s" (emphasis his)

Hmm.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: atici on 2003-06-10 04:21:45
I love Hydrogen Audio!

Had to say it. Probably the closest to "troll-free" environment in the net.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: mmortal03 on 2003-06-10 05:05:30
Quote
Quote
I'd like to thank whoever posted about the test on slashdot.


On behalf of Dibrom, or the community?

Slashdottings are not fun.   

Well, we might get a whole lot of new support now at this board, lol.  This is some BIG exposure.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Daybreak on 2003-06-10 05:16:16
Oh well, what does one expect? Slashdot is/was never really well known for the depth of their comments... Too many uninformed people making too many dumb comments.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-10 06:25:07
I just posted an announcement to the Usenet audio groups:

rec.audio.high-end
rec.audio.opinion
uk.rec.audio
rec.audio.pro
rec.audio.misc
rec.audio.pro

Hopefully, this will net a few more participants.

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: bond on 2003-06-10 07:14:11
i tried to make the test but uhh my ears seem to be too bad (or untrained), i cant really hear many differences 
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 07:23:50
Thanks a lot, ff123.

Jamie Benchimol will come after you. 



@bond: all results are welcome.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: dev0 on 2003-06-10 07:46:36
BTW. It was me (with a little helo of Garf ) submitting it to slashdot. You should have told me about that special page before though, Rjamorim.

dev0
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 08:14:02
Quote
BTW. It was me (with a little helo of Garf ) submitting it to slashdot. You should have told me about that special page before though, Rjamorim.

Ah, that's OK

Thanks a lot to both of you.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-10 11:56:56
Is it me or did not many people actually click through to the test? (Or to HA in general)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Tripwire on 2003-06-10 13:03:15
Trying to do a serious test, calling people from /. isn't a good idea. Even though it is a blind test, those folks will likely introduce (intentionally) false results.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-10 13:25:39
It's pretty tough to break the test to favor your favorite result. You'd actually need some knowledge about ABC/HR and MP4 and some time, and I assume most people that have it wont be retarded enough to try to fuck up the test.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: dev0 on 2003-06-10 14:06:32
Hmm, obviously not many did. Disappointing... I expected more even if it is slashdot.

dev0
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Tripwire on 2003-06-10 14:16:04
Quote
and I assume most people that have it wont be retarded enough to try to fuck up the test.

There are a small percentage of smart people at Slashdot, no doubt, but the majority there gives me a freakin' headache, so I have a rather uncomfortable feeling having them to evaluate something.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-10 14:18:50
Quote
There are a small percentage of smart people at Slashdot, no doubt, but the majority there gives me a freakin' headache, so I have a rather uncomfortable feeling having them to evaluate something.

The test is designed to be solid against false positives and negatives by both smart and less smart people. Don't worry
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: verloren on 2003-06-10 14:37:16
Quote
Is it me or did not many people actually click through to the test? (Or to HA in general)

I switched on Slashdot this morning and saw the headline, and had visions of my hosting service having a melted machine on their hands (audio.ciara.us is mine).  But there was very little extra traffic.  Now all I have to do is wait for my pulse to drop to normal again!

Cheers, Paul
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ff123 on 2003-06-10 16:00:33
Quote
Quote
Is it me or did not many people actually click through to the test? (Or to HA in general)

I switched on Slashdot this morning and saw the headline, and had visions of my hosting service having a melted machine on their hands (audio.ciara.us is mine).  But there was very little extra traffic.  Now all I have to do is wait for my pulse to drop to normal again!

Cheers, Paul

I'd estimate about 500 Meg were uploaded from my PC overnight via BitTorrent, so people are getting the test files.

I haven't seen my Usenet posting yet; I'm wondering if it got nixed by some spam filter?

ff123
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: tangent on 2003-06-10 17:28:50
Quote
There are a small percentage of smart people at Slashdot, no doubt, but the majority there gives me a freakin' headache, so I have a rather uncomfortable feeling having them to evaluate something.

Score: -1, Troll

Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: verloren on 2003-06-10 17:35:23
Quote
I'd estimate about 500 Meg were uploaded from my PC overnight via BitTorrent, so people are getting the test files.

I guessed that a lot of people would use BitTorrent, it being /.  And of course I'm the second mirror, which helps!

I'd guess maybe 100MB was grabbed from my site at the most.

Cheers, Paul
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 17:45:27
Quote
Is it me or did not many people actually click through to the test? (Or to HA in general)

I'm not sure, but about 2 hours after the test had been announced on slashdot, I had five e-mails with results in my mailbox, from five different people.

They could have been slashdotters, but it could also have been a coincidence.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-10 17:48:31
Quote
I guessed that a lot of people would use BitTorrent, it being /.  And of course I'm the second mirror, which helps!

I'd guess maybe 100MB was grabbed from my site at the most.

Cheers, Paul

Hello, Paul. Sorry for not informing you before.

Indeed, thankfully people are using bittorrent more, and besides I added another mirror to the test (thanks to Menno).

And, from your stats page, it seems to me that people consumed 1Gb+ of bandwidth. :B

Thanks a lot for your support.

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: verloren on 2003-06-10 18:53:07
Quote
Hello, Paul. Sorry for not informing you before.

And, from your stats page, it seems to me that people consumed 1Gb+ of bandwidth. :B
Regards;

Roberto.

For the test as a whole that's true, but over the last two days (i.e when the /. article has been up) they've only used about 10MB (now that I read it more closely!)

And no apology needed - the space and bandwidth is being put to good use!

Cheers, Paul
(edit - too much quoting!)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: askoff on 2003-06-10 19:12:39
Hurray! Now i got things rolling. Just visited at ff123 artifact training page and after that artifacts just jumped in my ears...
It's hard to be a newbie.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Differenciam on 2003-06-10 22:01:24
Quote
My favorite:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&...ead&cid=6157145 (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=67031&threshold=-1&commentsort=3&tid=141&tid=188&mode=thread&cid=6157145)

"Whenever I rip a CD, I encode it into mathematically loseless MP3s" (emphasis his)

Hmm.

I saw that too. What is he referring to? The best guess I had was cracking MP3 encoders so that they went up to 1411k... 

I'll get these and try 'em out.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: ErikS on 2003-06-13 09:15:08
The end date 15:th still holds? There will be enough results by then?
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: mpcfiend on 2003-06-13 09:46:00
Quote
Hurray! Now i got things rolling. Just visited at ff123 artifact training page and after that artifacts just jumped in my ears...


This is **NOT** a good thing for you! It's kinda too bad you can't turn back the clock.

I started kicking myself as soon as I gained the ears to be annoyed with apx and api. Listening for artifacts is kinda like taking up smoking cause you're curious. Ya just can't quit!
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: askoff on 2003-06-13 15:50:41
Quote
Quote
Hurray! Now i got things rolling. Just visited at ff123 artifact training page and after that artifacts just jumped in my ears...


This is **NOT** a good thing for you! It's kinda too bad you can't turn back the clock.

I started kicking myself as soon as I gained the ears to be annoyed with apx and api. Listening for artifacts is kinda like taking up smoking cause you're curious. Ya just can't quit! 

Maybay you are right. I should stop this before i have to find all my CD:s and rerip everythin under 256kbps mp3's. Luckily i quit smoking two years a go after trying it couple of years... Yes we all can do it
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: den on 2003-06-14 10:53:02
Phew, just got them knocked over. 

Great stuff Roberto. Looking forward to the results, and then the big comparison against the other 128 kbit lossy codecs...  B)

Den.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-15 04:00:44
Hello.

I'd like to inform that the test finish won't be postponed. In 24 hours counting from now (at midnight Brazilian time, 4AM GMT, 8PM Pacific time), I'll close the test, delete the sample packages from the servers, won't accept any more sample scores and will start calculating the results.

I'd like to invite anyone that didn't take the test yet to download some samples and dedicate some of your time on Sunday to participate. All scores will be very welcome. BTW, I suggest you choose packages randomly, and don't start with 1, or we might end up too many results for 1 and too few for others.

Thanks a lot for everyone who participated. If I manage to maintain my planned schedule, the extension test comparing the AAC winner to other formats will start in a month.

Kind regards;

Roberto Amorim.

Edit: BTW: Check out my updated test page:
http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/ (http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/)
Many thanks to Dibrom for creating the design baseline
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: saratoga on 2003-06-15 05:48:35
Any reason those torrents don't work?  I get nothing but tracker errors 

I'm running 4 other torrents with no trouble, so I don't think its my end.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Dibrom on 2003-06-15 06:20:57
Quote
Any reason those torrents don't work?  I get nothing but tracker errors 

I'm running 4 other torrents with no trouble, so I don't think its my end.

The tracker is offline atm, sorry.  I'll try and set it back up sometime tonight.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-16 04:01:20
[span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%']Test closed![/span]

Thanks for everybody that participated.

For those interested, here is the amount of participants:
Sample01: 18
Sample02: 13
Sample03: 13
Sample04: 15
Sample05: 15
Sample06: 14
Sample07: 13
Sample08: 11
Sample09: 14
Sample10: 12
Sample11: 12
Sample12: 14

Results will be made available ASAP at
http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/ (http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/)
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Frank Klemm on 2003-06-16 11:06:22
Quote
I just started a new public listening test.
Addition: a specific web site for the test has been created: http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/ (http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/test/)

The purpose is to find what encoder performs best encoding AAC at 128kbps

The encoders and parameters tested are:
Psytel AACenc 2.15  -br 128
Ahead/Nero 5.5.10.35  128kbps CBR, high quality
Sorenson Squeeze 3.5 (FhG Pro) 128kbps
Apple QuickTime 6.3 (Dolby) 128kbps high quality
FAAC 1.17b -a 64  (64kbps/channel)

--Who should take the test?

Anyone interested in AAC quality, or people that have no interest but would like to help making this test better.
You don't need excellent hearing, but some good gear is welcome (headphones are must-have).

--How do I take the test?

Download ABC/HR + the readme file here (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/abc-hr.zip) or here (http://audio.ciara.us/rarewares/abc-hr.zip). If you already have ABC/HR, get the readme here (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/Readme.txt).
Further instructions, and links to the sample packages, are inside the readme.

For people using BitTorrent: I strongly suggest you download using it.
The torrents are available here:
http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/ (http://static.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/AACTest/)
It would help me save bandwidth and you will probably download faster too

The average size of the sample packages is 4Mb. It sums to 47Mb, all the 12 packages.

Edit: For those that already downloaded packages, read here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=2&t=10107&st=25&#entry102177)

--I'm on Linux/MacOS/something other than Windows. Can I take the test?

You can. But you won't be able to use the ABC/HR utility, that is Win32 only. Since the reference file must be hidden (That's the HR in the name), tests performed without it wouldn't be valid. So, I can't plot your scores against others. But your comments on sample quality and artifacts would still be welcome.

--When will the test finish?

The test is scheduled to end on June 15. This date may be extended if proved necessary.

If you have any other question, please post in this thread.

Thank-you very much,

Roberto.

Where can I download the audio files? Firewall allows access on port #23 and #80.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: Garf on 2003-06-16 11:12:11
The test was closed already. Files are no longer available I think - though maybe BitTorrent works (not behind a firewall though). Edit: Nope, BitTorrent also no longer works.

They were the same ones from the 64kbps test. If you don't have those, someone can probably set you up with them.
Title: AAC@128kbps listening test - CLOSED
Post by: rjamorim on 2003-06-16 19:17:49
Quote
Where can I download the audio files? Firewall allows access on port #23 and #80.

Too bad, Frank.

Well, as you probably noticed in the post you quoted:
Quote
--When will the test finish?

The test is scheduled to end on June 15. This date may be extended if proved necessary.


Hopefully you'll be able to participate in the extension test.

Regards;

Roberto.
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