Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: What CBR is transparent on your music? (Read 10661 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #25 –
Somewhere between 160 CBR and 192 CBR using LAME.

(or Q2.5 Vorbis VBR)

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #26 –
Quote
Transparent is such a loaded word. 

Since you aren't going to get transparency from MP3, I'm going to say --alt-preset cbr 160. Maybe 192 because that bitrate has been so indoctrinated in our minds as "transparent". But really, 160kbps CBR will do the job unless you are bent on serious listening. If you use 256 or something it just seems like a waste for a flawed format that bitrate can't even save.

Whoa!!! That's the way to make friends with the LAME developers

Personally I notice flaws using 192 CBR. Sometimes even with 256 I have noticed slight differences to the original - usually only with music I know intimately well (e.g. an album you have had for years and know every vocal bit, every guitar phrase and tone by heart). I think without using VBR you'd have to go with 320 kbps CBR (well, you can't go higher and still be compatible can you?) but I personally don't use the alt preset settings for CBR. I'd determine your own lowpass setting for one - this is an individual thing determined by your hearing ability. I use the following 320 kbps CBR commandline (after a fair bit of research and questioning here) with LAME 3.90.2:

-b320 -m j -h --nspsytune --nssafejoint -Z -X 1,3 --athtype 2 --lowpass 19

An added advantage to the lowpass 19 is that the remaining frequencies can be better encoded (cf. lowpass 21).

I defy anyone listening to music to tell the difference between lowpass 19 and lowpass 21.

You can search on this forum for the properties of the other switches.

RD.
*
The Probel with Troublems
*

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #27 –
--ap cbr 192 is usually transparent for me.
Hard work might not kill you, but why take any chances?

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #28 –
DELETED

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #29 –
Quote
Quote

but preset standard should be transparent for 99% of all ears.

cheers

Preset standard is not transparent on most "metal". It is transparent on some "electronic" music though each style/song has different bit requirements.

I think that's probably not accurate; to 99% of listeners (i.e. talk to an average person who downloads mp3s), even fraunhoefer 192 CBR is transparent on most metal.  I listen to a *lot* of music, and I certainly can't tell the difference between preset standard and the original CD on the vast majority of music (pretty much everything except a few of the MPEG test samples actually, and even then only on repeated close listening).

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #30 –
DELETED

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #31 –
Quote
I use the following 320 kbps CBR commandline (after a fair bit of research and questioning here) with LAME 3.90.2:

-b320 -m j -h --nspsytune --nssafejoint -Z -X 1,3 --athtype 2 --lowpass 19



I thought that for that version of LAME, --alt-preset insane was the best 320 CBR commandline. Am I wrong?

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #32 –
Quote
Quote
I use the following 320 kbps CBR commandline (after a fair bit of research and questioning here) with LAME 3.90.2:

-b320 -m j -h --nspsytune --nssafejoint -Z -X 1,3 --athtype 2 --lowpass 19



I thought that for that version of LAME, --alt-preset insane was the best 320 CBR commandline. Am I wrong? 

No, you're not. Although his commandline resembles the --api switches a bit, i'd use --api anyhow. And don't forget that he can't access any of the code-level tweaks that Dibrom utilized for the alt-presets.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #33 –
Quote
Whoa!!! That's the way to make friends with the LAME developers

I don't think the LAME developers are going to deny that MP3 has some flaws in the area of transparent high bitrate encoding.

PS. Have you tried --alt-preset insane?

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #34 –
Quote
I'd have to say 224 or better 256. If someone remembers the legendary r3mix listening test  , the optimized 192 CBR setting was the one with the most obvious audible artifacts for most people (me included).

Yes. ABR 224 didn't do well either, so CBR 224 is probably a no go too. CBR 256 was (on average) transparent.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #35 –
Quote
The music I listen to such as "technical deathmetal" "thrash/speed metal" I can tell the difference,it is subtle but it is there.


I'm interested in samples where it fails. Metal has tended to bloat bitrate, but usually there were little or few problems getting things transparent.

(Even more so because you're using 'I'm an amateur musician' as an argument, and experience has thought me those are far from being the most reliable listeners.)

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #36 –
Quote
Quote

The music I listen to such as "technical deathmetal" "thrash/speed metal" I can tell the difference,it is subtle but it is there.


I'm interested in samples where it fails. Metal has tended to bloat bitrate, but usually there were little or few problems getting things transparent.

(Even more so because you're using 'I'm an amateur musician' as an argument, and experience has thought me those are far from being the most reliable listeners.)

Yeah I'm new to this mp3 encoding stuff a complete "noob" so to speak so I'm definantely no expert. But from what I've gathered so far when I encode in "extreme" it sounds just about the same as a cd. When I encode in "standard" it sounds just about the same as a cd also exept it seems to lack an almost imperceptible amount of "clarity" or "crispness" compared to "extreme"

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #37 –
You ought to do a blind test, aka ABX, to make sure that that isn't a placebo effect, Granny.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #38 –
I just recorded a song using Media Jukebox with Lame at the VBR normal setting.  I recorded the same song as a 'wav' file to compare instantly with the mp3 copy.  I can't really tell a difference.  If there is a difference, it's not relevant. Some people may have better ears than I and can hear a difference.  Therefore, to switch to other codecs that are not usable on portable players doesn't make sense to me.  I have a Creative Jukebox that I have loaded with MP3 music.  I can't see throwing the Jukebox away and use another codec that won't play on my jukebox because in theory it is better (like Ogg and MPC, etc).  I guess everyone has to decide for themselves.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #39 –
Quote
You ought to do a blind test, aka ABX, to make sure that that isn't a placebo effect, Granny.

Yeah your probably right about the placebo effect since I'm new to mp3 making, just started a week ago I think I may have been a little too eager to spout off before I knew what I was talking about. I just did a comparison with a NEVERMORE song in standard and extreme and I really cant tell the difference between the two.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #40 –
Quote
Quote
Whoa!!! That's the way to make friends with the LAME developers

I don't think the LAME developers are going to deny that MP3 has some flaws in the area of transparent high bitrate encoding.

PS. Have you tried --alt-preset insane?

I have not tried --alt-preset insane. I didn't think the code level tweaks applied much for CBR. If you noticed, my commandline:

-b320 -m j -h --nspsytune --nssafejoint -Z -X 1,3 --athtype 2 --lowpass 19

contains just about everything that is in -api anyway (I did a pretty indepth check of these forums). Who knows what is not in mine but is in -api? The reason I chose mine was that I knew exactly which switches were set and what they apparently do. I didn't think that -Z, -X 1,3 were in -api and people like JohnV who seems to know what he is on about suggested these as possible improvements. As I stated before I wanted a lower lowpass because I can't tell the difference with 19 and 21. True you can also do this in -api but I like to know the settings.

RD.
*
The Probel with Troublems
*

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #41 –
Quote
I have not tried --alt-preset insane. I didn't think the code level tweaks applied much for CBR.


I think they do, but I don't know for sure which ones do. Would have to look at the code or ask Dibrom.

Quote
I didn't think that -Z, -X 1,3 were in -api and people like JohnV who seems to know what he is on about suggested these as possible improvements.


I think at least -Z and -X3 are in API. Don't know about -X1 (or if it's any good).

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #42 –
Quote
I didn't think the code level tweaks applied much for CBR.

--alt-preset insane uses code-level tweaks that you can't access via command-line switches.

Try "--alt-preset insane --no-preset-tune".

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #43 –
I use the following settings for the best quality (LAME v3.90.3):

--alt-preset insane -ms -d -c

Description:
--alt-preset insane, To get all the tweaks that are not available on the command line (uses 320 cbr).

(The rest of the settings "override" what the insane preset gives you)

-ms, True stereo mode - using joint stereo will give you a bit more quality at the cost of less stereo separation.  To me accurate stereo separation is very important.  And yes, I can hear a difference between joint stereo and true stereo at this bit-rate on some music - the music sounds fine (mp3 encoding wise) but it seems kind of mono in some areas, the music doesn't leap out from the right or left channels.

-d, Allows the left and right channels to use different block types, which is sort of like a VBR between the left and right channels - applying the bit rate to the channel that needs it most but still keeping a constant bit-rate.

-c, Marks the encoded file as copyrighted - I use this because I believe anything that is encoded is copyrighted material.

I also use AudioGrabber and Normalize all my music to 98% before encoding.  This can be done using LAME with the "-scale 0.93" switch but I prefer to let AudioGrabber do the work since it process the entire file in RAM before writing the wave file to disk for encoding.

Hope that helps.

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #44 –
Quote
Hope that helps.
you will have to hide in the mountains for a week or two after this post  B) , before that search the forum for joint stereo and/or normalization to name the two.
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #45 –
192 if I stress myself. But 160 is very fine as well.
 

What CBR is transparent on your music?

Reply #46 –
If I want to do "critical" listening, (which, by the way, I hardly ever do anymore),
I put the original CD into the stereo and skip the computer altogether.
For mobile/portable use, and "casual" listening, I do --alt-preset standard.

Dex