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Topic: [TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S (Read 16301 times) previous topic - next topic
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[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: mzil on
It may be "dual" but its mono, as is every other *current* production AVR*, despite it being inexpensive to implement as stereo had they wanted to. Yamaha, perhaps one of the last to offer a stereo sub out option, did away with that silliness and although their multiple sub outs may still be colored red and white, there is no option for L/R stereo any longer.

On this particular Pioneer the "dual" sub outs are merely an internal Y-cord. There is no provisions for controlling level or delay on them independently, as there is on some units, for instance with SubEQ HT.

*some prepros which cater to audiophile woo may offer it, I'm not sure.

Yes, I have publicly lamented the fact that Preouts ACH, which were standard on my circa 2005 VSX-815 (which I bought for <$300 IIRC), are now only available on near top of the line AVRs (for way more than $300! new).
Luckily all 3 of my AVRs (HK DPR-2001, the above Pioneer and Yamaha RX-A800) have preouts all channels. I would not buy an AVR without that feature.
So the bad news is you either pay >$600 new....or buy used for ACH preouts. Which gives you the ability to run stereo subs by utilizing the LR main preouts (full ranged signal too, which I prefer for post filtering). The outputs (line/speaker) are simultaneously active, so the mains can still be driven by the internal amps, if desired, but of course, with no high pass (which I also desire).


Modern AVR power amps are so clean that using the amp output (attenuated properly) as a preamp output is completely fair play.

This is being done by the car sound guys all the time, and they have a wide variety of tools that will also work with home audio.

Their tools may seem a little crude and lack a little credibility and panache for use by picky audio guys.

I am going to be integrating active speakers (JBL Pro LSR308s) with my Denon AVR shortly, so the problem is right in my lap!

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Modern AVR power amps are so clean that using the amp output (attenuated properly) as a preamp output is completely fair play.
This is being done by the car sound guys all the time, and they have a wide variety of tools that will also work with home audio.
Their tools may seem a little crude and lack a little credibility and panache for use by picky audio guys.

Yes, one can go that route too, but there are still a boatload (most (?)) of subs that include high (speaker) level inputs already, including Daytons nice performing, very inexpensive ones for an example. So no need for that.
The problem is that the high pass for the mains would have to passive, unless they were capable enough.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I am going to be integrating active speakers (JBL Pro LSR308s) with my Denon AVR shortly, so the problem is right in my lap!

Those are nice performers, look capable of being run down into the low 50s upper 40s, but of course I would want to cross much higher and integrate with stereo subs. I prefer full ranged mains myself.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #2 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Modern AVR power amps are so clean that using the amp output (attenuated properly) as a preamp output is completely fair play.
This is being done by the car sound guys all the time, and they have a wide variety of tools that will also work with home audio.
Their tools may seem a little crude and lack a little credibility and panache for use by picky audio guys.

Yes, one can go that route too, but there are still a boatload (most (?)) of subs that include high (speaker) level inputs already, including Daytons nice performing, very inexpensive ones for an example. So no need for that.


That wasn't the issue since every AVR I know of  has line level and only line level subwoofer outputs. The only exceptions I know of are pseudo-AVRs that come with low end HTIBs.

I will take this opportunity to allude to my bad experiences with subwoofers with speaker level inputs. I actually used that feature on my Paradigm sub when my systemn was based on a Stereo Receiver, and it was far from optimum. Simply upgrading to an AVR with actual bass management and using its crossovers was a major sound quality upgrade - based on the identical same subwoofer and main speakers. One probable cause is exactly what you say below:

Quote
The problem is that the high pass for the mains would have to passive, unless they were capable enough.


The facts I subscribe to suggest that unless the performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so. Even the mains such as those by DefTech and others that allege they contain built in subwoofers are in fact too limited in terms of their performance for even fairly modest systems by my standards. 

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I am going to be integrating active speakers (JBL Pro LSR308s) with my Denon AVR shortly, so the problem is right in my lap!


Those are nice performers, look capable of being run down into the low 50s upper 40s, but of course I would want to cross much higher and integrate with stereo subs. I prefer full ranged mains myself.

Quote

I doubt that these LSR 308s  will ever see any significant input below 60 or 80 Hz since this system has 2 12' subwoofers and is due for the addition of a third  push-pull dual 15" driver based sub.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
That wasn't the issue since every AVR I know of  has line level and only line level subwoofer outputs.

Yep. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Line level subwoofer outputs in mono. Now we're back to where we started.
Boom bang crash, you're all set.
But not I.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I will take this opportunity to allude to my bad experiences with subwoofers with speaker level inputs. I actually used that feature on my Paradigm sub when my systemn was based on a Stereo Receiver, and it was far from optimum.

Right. Optimum, as mentioned previously, is ACH pre outs. Non-optimum, but still viable, is speaker level output, stereo. Into speaker level input, stereo.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The facts I subscribe to suggest that unless the performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so.

Well, the facts I subscribe to, are not for modest goals. Full ranged mains are required when the goals are quite immodest.
YMMV.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I doubt that these LSR 308s  will ever see any significant input below 60 or 80 Hz since this system has 2 12' subwoofers and is due for the addition of a third  push-pull dual 15" driver based sub.

Good luck integrating your onsets.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #5 –
The dinosaurs became extinct.

Maybe poor marketing too.
You could ask jj over on AVS, but he probably wouldn't want to call out his old company, any more than his old bosses.
Whatever. Logic7 still lives....and my 8 trillion songs are all stereo. Well, mostly  .

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #7 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
The dinosaurs became extinct.


In my history of the development of audio and the current industry direction, it is the alleged full range speakers (that as a rule come way short of duplicating the bass extension and cleanliness of good subwoofers) that are the dinosaurs.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I don't see any reliable facts in that article.

You missed the fact that 5 Snell Type Vs were used by jj? It's there in the article Arny, look 'em up. Big floorstanders, good to at least 40hz. For very good reason. His DIY speakers are quite similar, maybe even larger, dual 10 WMTMW affairs.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Perhaps you could either clarify or further substantiate?


It was preceded by my links in post #25, in this very thread. Please don't RichB me, give them a read Arny. Take your time, a wealth of info there, but I parsed to at least where to start. As noted, can't direct link, or quote from PPTs. So yes, a bit of effort on your part is required. At least do that, please.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #9 –
Try this also from jj's PPTs "Soundfields vs. Human Hearing", slide 35
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #10 –
JJ makes reference to an AES preprint for PSR- would you happen to have the reference? I do a lot of recording and would love to experiment with it.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #11 –
Quote from: SIY on
JJ makes reference to an AES preprint for PSR- would you happen to have the reference? I do a lot of recording and would love to experiment with it.


SY, this is the actual paper: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136
Some detail: http://www2.ensc.sfu.ca/~ljilja/cnl/guests/cvetkovic.pdf
7 mic sphere mixed down to 5ch, so there's proprietary hardware/software involved me thinks. Probably not too repeatable.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #12 –
AJ, mucous garcias!

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
What global truth should be discerned from that fact?

No solving world peace and hunger either. But it does put your facts and definition of "modest systems"....
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The facts I subscribe to suggest that unless the performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so.

...into some question.
My view is a bit more nuanced and that there may be some dissent regarding all this.
Perhaps you could provide some substantiation of these Arnie-global-truth-facts of yours? Thanks.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #15 –
How does the MiniDSP sound, anyway? I have been contemplating getting one for bass management. problem was I couldn't get a straight answer on their board about how low and steep it could correct.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #16 –
Quote from: NigelinNY on
How does the MiniDSP sound, anyway? t.

A MiniDSP, being an equalizer sounds a lot of different ways. ;-)
Quote
I have been contemplating getting one for bass management. problem was I couldn't get a straight answer on their board about how low and steep it could correc


That is implicitly described in the tech specs for the plug-ins.  For example:

http://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/Pr...V%20plug-in.pdf

The crossover specs are:

Butterworth up to 8th order (6 to 48dB/oct)
Linkwitz-Riley up to 8th order (12 to 48dB/oct)
Bessel - 2nd order - Bypass per filter

The Parametric eq specs are:

6 EQ bands per input, 6 EQ bands per output
Frequency, Gain, Q configurable, Peak of Shelf (low/high)
Per-band bypass feature

It also has an advanced programming mode that exposes the biquads that are actually used to implement the filters.

There is a different plug-in that implements graphic eqs.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
What global truth should be discerned from that fact?

No solving world peace and hunger either. But it does put your facts and definition of "modest systems"....
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The facts I subscribe to suggest that unless the performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so.

...into some question.


Only in the land of very weak proof.

JJ picks some legacy high performance speakers for a demonstration, and someone else is trying to fluff the event up into a global rule about the superiority of full-range speakers?

Come on! ;-)

Quote
My view is a bit more nuanced and that there may be some dissent regarding all this.


Come on AJ. You are manufacturer who seems to be wanting to allege the superiority or at least the utility of your products.

Quote
Perhaps you could provide some substantiation of these Arnie-global-truth-facts of yours? Thanks.


I could, but so much has been written on the topic that I don't feel the need to do other people's research for them.

In this case the speakers that seems to have JJ chosen fail the requirement for being full-range speakers in this review:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeake...nell/index.html

"In terms of extension, the C/V went impressively low, but didn't do all that much in my room below 35Hz or so."  (page 2)



[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
JJ picks some legacy high performance speakers for a demonstration, and someone else is trying to fluff the event up into a global rule about the superiority of full-range speakers?

Only in your overheated imagination does this become "global rule about superiority".
It is was a specific example of a system, that directly contradicts your handwaving about "when performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so."
The PPT link, slide 35 explains why, as does Dr Greisingers papers.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I could, but so much has been written on the topic that I don't feel the need to do other people's research for them.

IOW, you can't substantiate it, because it's baseless handwaving. Well, now we're getting somewhere. 
Do you follow your own specious rules? Are your mains crossed at 60hz? Are your subs all mono?

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Come on AJ. You are manufacturer who seems to be wanting to allege the superiority or at least the utility of your products.

Right Amir. Red herrings, ad hominem and yeah, of course I have the market cornered on speakers that go down to 40hz. Brilliant.
I'm sure the tie in to mono sub outputs on AVRs is in there somewhere too. 

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
In this case the speakers that seems to have JJ chosen fail the requirement for being full-range speakers in this review:
"In terms of extension, the C/V went impressively low, but didn't do all that much in my room below 35Hz or so."  (page 2)

Right. They go below 40hz in room. Boy, you really showed me there.
The new ones (DIY) seem even larger, dual 10" woofer floorstanders.
But of course he's probably not listening to Bieber and One Direction with mono bass either, ya understand? YMMV.

Any time you're ready to present your evidence for immodest system performance mono bass and arbitrary XOs for stereo acoustic music, please present it.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #19 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
In this case the speakers that seems to have JJ chosen fail the requirement for being full-range speakers in this review:
"In terms of extension, the C/V went impressively low, but didn't do all that much in my room below 35Hz or so."  (page 2)

Right. They go below 40hz in room. Boy, you really showed me there.


Last time I looked the normal extent of system bass response for quality audio is 20 Hz (or less).

The world is full of recordings with significant audible content down to 32 Hz, so rolling off bass below 40 Hz or even 35 Hz doesn't make it except in systems with modest performance goals.

I'm actually being very modest in forming this requirement given all of the commercial recordings with significant bass below 20 Hz.


[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The world is full of recordings with significant audible content down to 32 Hz, so rolling off bass below 40 Hz or even 35 Hz doesn't make it except in systems with modest performance goals.
I'm actually being very modest in forming this requirement given all of the commercial recordings with significant bass below 20 Hz.

Pray tell, what does the above have anything to do with this claim:
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The facts I subscribe to suggest that unless the performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so.

 

The facts to support that claim??
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #21 –
There is one current A/V preamp-processor that does indeed have actual stereo sub outputs: the Emotiva XMC-1.  But it's $2000.

Edit:  I should add that in multi-channel mode of this pre-pro, all left-channel bass is redirected to the assumed "left sub", and likewise for right mains channels.  I was told by an AVS poster named Sanjay that his Lexicon pre-pro works the same way.  Not sure if that Lexicon pre-pro was influenced by Griesinger's ideas or not.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #22 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The world is full of recordings with significant audible content down to 32 Hz, so rolling off bass below 40 Hz or even 35 Hz doesn't make it except in systems with modest performance goals.
I'm actually being very modest in forming this requirement given all of the commercial recordings with significant bass below 20 Hz.

Pray tell, what does the above have anything to do with this claim:
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The facts I subscribe to suggest that unless the performance goals are modest, there are no mains that should ever be driven below 60 Hz or so.

 

The facts to support that claim??



http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php...ticle&id=16

Example: Revel F12



Notice THD for this very robust full-range speaker exceeds 3% @ 60 Hz at 95 dB SPL which is not what I'd call really loud given how insensitive the ear is to low bass.

Notice that THD skyrockets below about 150 Hz

and

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

Example:

SVS PB-13

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&...=55&mset=53

Notice that the lowest SPL tested is a very significantly higher 105 dB, and that distortion remains < 3% down to just about 20 Hz.

Please feel free to pick your own examples. I only cite these sources because they have some of the most complete info about speaker nonlinear distortion and dynamic range on the web.

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #23 –
Quote from: andy_c on
Not sure if that Lexicon pre-pro was influenced by Griesinger's ideas or not.

That would make perfect sense, since he was involved at Lexicon and I believe Logic7 sprang from all that. At LF the L-R difference is enhanced to create more separation and spaciousness. JJ clearly refers to interchannel phase differences down to around 40hz or so, I think his system may have decorrelated the bass as well, but I haven't bought the AES paper yet. Too bad he not longer posts here or he might shed some light on how it works (assuming he's allowed to now).

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

[TOS #5 (disrespectfully off-topic -> bozo bin, POOF!)] From: S

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php...ticle&id=16

Example: Revel F12


Are you at the age now where you may have already forgotten this from what, 3 weeks ago? Or is it selective memory loss? THD? Seriously?
Here's a quick refresher:

Quote
The panelists included myself (Sean Olive), Steve Temme (Listen Inc.), Dr. Earl Geddes (GedLee), Laurie Fincham (THX), Mike Klasco (Menlo Scientific), and Dr. Floyd Toole (former VP Acoustic Engineering at Harman), who served as the panel moderator. After about 30 minutes, a consensus was quickly reached on the following points:
1)
2)
3)....Popular specifications like Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IM) do not accurately reflect the distortion’s audibility and effect on the perceived sound quality of the loudspeaker.


As an aside, Arnie, the graph you posted above shows a far more alarming level at a very audible range 3k (at the bottom of the direct radiator domes operating range).
Is the speaker thus completely unusable via your "THD" standards?

Oh and btw, who exactly is advocating not using subs, below 40-50hz range??

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer