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Topic: pc volume controls confusing me (Read 2904 times) previous topic - next topic
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pc volume controls confusing me

Heres all the volume controls I have to figure out howto set:


Winamp 2.80

Master volume
Preamp on EQ
K scale on mpc plugin

SBPCI 128 mixer volume controls:

Wave volume
Master volume
Bass master volume
Treble master volume

Speakers

volume knob on front speakers
----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok so there I have 8 diff volume controls to set, 10 if using rear speakers........

So needless to say, I find this very confusing. Which control should I use to set master volume on the pc? The master volume on the PCI128 mixer or the master volume on the speakers? I set the Wave volume control on the mixer to 100%

I don't know how I should set the Bass and treble on the mixer.

1. Isn't it the job of the winamp EQ(and not the pci128 mixer) to set Bass and Treble?
2. Since not every sound aplication has an EQ, and (I usually like a little more bass than treble) I set the bass a little higher than the treble, but then when I use winamp and its eq I guess I'm boosting the bass twice if I boost it on the mixer and the winamp eq.
3. Does bass and treble controls also control the midrange freq's on the mixer?
4. To set all freqencies to output evenly on mixer should I set Bass and Treble controls to high, low, or middle?
e.g.

Bass  (High)  Treble
|=|                  |=|
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |

Bass (Middle) Treble
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|=|                  |=|
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |

Bass  (Low)  Treble
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|  |                  |  |
|=|                  |=|

I'm using the k14 setting for the mpc plugin, because its sounds louder than k20(k20 seems to quiet) and because it works properly with the vis plugins.  I set the master volume on winamp to 100% What I find weird is that when I use waveout changing this control changes the wave volume control on pxi128 mixer, but when I use directsound it does not. I am using direct sound. I keep the winamp preamp control (on the eq) in the middle.  Isn't the winamp preamp the same as the mpc K setting?
------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope I haven't confused anybody more than I'm already confused 
Thx for any articles or advice on this.
Lastly it seams there are too many volume controls and some should be eliminated either by winamp, or creative, or windows.
"I have learned a lesson from the lessons I have learned"

pc volume controls confusing me

Reply #1 –
Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
Heres all the volume controls I have to figure out howto set:


>Winamp 2.80

>Master volume
100 %

>Preamp on EQ
Middle

>K scale on mpc plugin
I don't know

>SBPCI 128 mixer volume controls:

>Wave volume
100%

>Master volume
100%, but be careful to plug your speakers in the line out, NOT the speaker out if there is one. Otherwise it will be too loud.
The speaker out provides enough current to directly drive external speakers. Your speakers having a volume control, they must be amplified, like all PC speakers. Therefore they get their current from a plug of their own.

>Bass master volume
In general, middle, with creative soundcards.

>Treble master volume
Middle

>Speakers

>volume knob on front speakers

Use it to set the listening volume.

Not all soundcards behave the same. If the sound is saturated even at low volume, try to lower the master volume of the SB128 mixer and see if it solves the problem. If so, decrease it a little more, in order to get some room, and let it there, continuing to use the speaker volume for usual volume setting.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
1. Isn't it the job of the winamp EQ(and not the pci128 mixer) to set Bass and Treble?


No, in fact, bass and treble settings are very problematic in digital audio, because increasing any frequency leads to potential saturation (called clipping), because a digital signal must be at the maximum level to get the best quality to begin with. So nothing can be increased any more.
That why Naoki Shibata's super equalizer plugin for example, only allows you to decrease the frequencies.
I don't know if the SB128 mixer is analog or digital. I think it was analog on the SB64. Therefore there should be no problem with the mixer's bass and treble setting.
However, if there were no setting on the soundcard, you might want to play with Winamp's ones.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
2. Since not every sound aplication has an EQ, and (I usually like a little more bass than treble) I set the bass a little higher than the treble, but then when I use winamp and its eq I guess I'm boosting the bass twice if I boost it on the mixer and the winamp eq.


That's right. Stay with the mixer settings. It will set bass even for other sources than Winamp, like Windows Media player, DVDs, quicktime, games, etc.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
3. Does bass and treble controls also control the midrange freq's on the mixer?


I'm not sure I understand you, but increasing both would be like decreasing mediums, and lowering both like increasing mediums.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
4. To set all freqencies to output evenly on mixer should I set Bass and Treble controls to high, low, or middle?


Middle on the SB64AWE, middle on the SB64V, middle on the SB Live. So I guess it's also middle on the SB128. They all have a mixer of their own.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
What I find weird is that when I use waveout changing this control changes the wave volume control on pxi128 mixer, but when I use directsound it does not.


By default, Winamp volume control does not change anything to the data, it is just passed to the audio device as an additional command.
When you use Waveout, the device is your soundcard, so Winamp just asks your soundcard to set the volume. I guess that DirectX is capable of setting the volume itself too.
If you want Winamp volume to work inside Winamp, use the "alt setting method" in Winamp waveout options.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
I am using direct sound. I keep the winamp preamp control (on the eq) in the middle.  Isn't the winamp preamp the same as the mpc K setting?


I don't know.

Quote
Originally posted by Infrared Archer
it seams there are too many volume controls and some should be eliminated either by winamp, or creative, or windows.


That's what we get when everything is compatible with everything. With one volume control, there would be much less compatibility.
Examples :
without wav volume, your CD could sound different than your MP3s
Without master volume, no way to properly use headphones on the soundcard
Winamp volume... well I admit that it quite unuseful 
The preamp volume is there to work together with the EQ. You can boost frequencies, and decrease the preamp volume accordingly in order not to clip the sound.

pc volume controls confusing me

Reply #2 –
Yep, Pio got it pretty much right if you ask me.

Except, I wouldn't set any of the volumes to 100%... to avoid overamplification and clipping, I have heard that you don't want to raise any of the volumes for Master or Wave higher than 70%. I have them at 50% right now, and with my Sony headphones, that is deafeningly loud.

I am using the WinAmp DirectSound plugin, and I currently have its volume control set to ~30% for listening. Ideally, I would like it if WinAmp's volume control was adjusting the Wave mixer volume on my soundcard... I much prefer the DirectSound plugin over the waveOut plugin for other reasons, so I'm sticking to it.

Basically, the DirectSound volume simply decreases the volume being sent out. What I mean by this is that if you have the DirectSound volume to 100%, it would be identical to using the waveOut plugin. Changing the Wave mixer volume on your soundcard would still have an effect on your music volume if you're using DirectSound.


If you're using ReplayGain on your MPCs, then the K setting adjusts the volume that the plugin is adjusting to. (ReplayGain will raise or lower the volume of your songs so that they match). The higher the K setting, the more headroom you have, meaning that there is a lower chance of clipping the audio. I read that Hydrogen Audio recommends K14 because it has just enough headroom for listening purposes. Reading the help on the MPC decoder, it is recommended to use K24 if you are using 24-bit recording equipment... I assume this is to guarantee the best sound with no clipping on equipment that has very high dynamic range. (It has nothing to do with the fact that K24 and 24-bit have the same number!  )

The Preamp setting on winamp's equalizer has absolutely nothing to do with the K setting. Setting the Preamp to +6dB would be like changing each frequency to +6. The reason this is used is, like Pio said, to prevent amplifying frequencies when you raise them in the equalizer. This provides more range of values for your frequencies (ie, the largest difference between two frequencies can be 40dB instead of just 20 while still preventing clipping from amplification). Ideally, if you have a frequency (let's use 60Hz as an example) set to +4, then you want the preamp at -4... this will leave 60Hz at +0, and change all other frequencies to -4. Yes, it will be quieter, but it will prevent the equalizer from amplifying the frequency beyond its limit.

I don't know what Pio was saying about digital recording having to be at max volume... You can have a song that has very little sound at high frequencies, and it will not clip if you raise them... but other songs can have lots of sound at those frequencies, and amplifying them will cause clipping.

I currently have the equalizer disabled, and use the Treble and Bass settings of the soundcard to adjust the sound to the way I like it. I really have no idea why, so I can't explain this or back it up, but it seems that the sound doesn't clip when you raise the treble or bass on the soundcard's settings, unlike the winamp eq.... they can clip your speakers if they aren't very good, but they don't clip the signal. Somebody please let me know if I am wrong.

btw, I am using a SoundBlaster Live.
 

pc volume controls confusing me

Reply #3 –
Quote
Originally posted by paranoos
I wouldn't set any of the volumes to 100%... to avoid overamplification and clipping,


The wave volume at least is the same kind as DirectSound : 100 % means to pass the data by without changing its level.
The main volume could be a little tricky.
On the SB live, having both master and wave at 100% playing wavs leads to the exact same volume in the digital output as the lossless digital output of a standalone CD player. Therefore all volume controls act as attenuators.
But the analog output behaviour can be special.
First if it is a speaker/headphone output, it can be too loud, as it is the same a a speaker output on a standalone ampli. You don't plug your headphones into the speaker plug do you ? I tried once.
Second, even if it's not, we don't know what maximum line out level the manufacturer decided to use. Maybe a very loud level is chosen in order to use with headphones (though the nominal line out voltage is already quite loud for headphones. I do mean the voltage, you won't get anything from a real line out since there is no current).
In this case, the master volume should be decreased.

Last, the mixer itself is 32 bits. I don't know how they are mapped, and how they are connected to the DAC, but imagine, and that would be sensible, that there are 12 LSB and 4 MSB added to the original 16 bits, and then only 1 MSB is cut when the signal is mapped into the 16 bits DAC. 3 added MSB would remain in the nominal range, that would allow +18 db gain from the source (the original 16 bits being shifted).
In this case, the nominal use would be to set the volumes to -18 db. The maximum output would be deafening (18 db more than nominal), but there would be no clipping using the bass/treble settings.
In this case, setting the master volume to 100% would be indeed unsuited.

Quote
Originally posted by paranoos
it seems that the sound doesn't clip when you raise the treble or bass on the soundcard's settings, unlike the winamp eq.... they can clip your speakers if they aren't very good, but they don't clip the signal.


If you have your other volumes around 30%, you get quite some margin for bass/treble amplification anyway. But when I used the digital out with all volumes at 100%, the bass/treble settings of the SB live (digital AC97) actually clipped the sound in the digital output, as expected since the signal was already normalized.
I didn't check the analog output, now that I think of it...