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Topic: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency. (Read 1692 times) previous topic - next topic
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DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Hi.

I want to occasioanally connect my laptop to my hifi to attempt to make music using a daw and midi keyboard. I am having issue with lag. I have installed the Asio audio drivers so my issue is with speedy interface. I am trying to avoid spending money on a Focusrite Scarlett (or indeed anything if I can help it!).

My favoured solution is Bluetooth but even using the newer aptX Low Latency codec it's too laggy to be usable. I've also tried using the headphone output but it's noisy, low sound quality and the jack connection is too fragile.

My hifi has an optical in. I'd really like to use this. My laptop has USB C, HDMI and Thunderbolt outputs. Is there someway I can use one of these outputs to inexpensively connect to the optical in for a lag-free experience? (Thundebolt seems to be out as the connectors are mind bogglingly expensive!).

Thanks for any help. If there is a better place to ask please let me know.
Just step sideways....

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #1 –
High quality USB sound "cards" are cheap and easily available, this would solve the problem of your headphone output.  You might even find one which has optical.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #2 –
Quote from: ModelCitizen on
I want to occasioanally connect my laptop to my hifi to attempt to make music using a daw and midi keyboard.
...
My hifi has an optical in. I'd really like to use this.
So looks like you don't need other stuff including analog I/O and such.
https://www.amazon.com/USB-Optical-Audio-Adapter/s?k=USB+to+Optical+Audio+Adapter

[1] No, don't ask me which adapter is the best, I don't know.
[2] These products most likely don't come with dedicated ASIO drivers, you may need a generic driver like ASIO4ALL or FlexASIO

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #3 –
Thanks @bennetng

A USB to Optical looks good but some of them say they are analogue to digital converters which is confusing as I
want to take a digital signal from my laptop to the optical input of my hifi DAC. I'm also quite unclear about the latency of these devices and if they'd be fast enough for a keyboard input. Have you used them?

Most of them seem to be USB2 connectors whereas my laptop only has USB3... but I'm sure I'll find some USB3 versions when I look a bit harder.
Just step sideways....

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #4 –
Quote from: ModelCitizen on
A USB to Optical looks good but some of them say they are analogue to digital converters which is confusing as I
want to take a digital signal from my laptop to the optical input of my hifi DAC.
It is a search result by using keywords. If the search returned irrelevant results you should have the intelligence to filter them out. Focus on the products you need.

Quote
I'm also quite unclear about the latency of these devices and if they'd be fast enough for a keyboard input. Have you used them?
In your original question you specifically mentioned you are unwilling to pay for something like a Focusrite Scarlett so I offered some cheaper alternatives. Even something like a Scarlett is on the economic side of studio interface world. If you want something cheap and excellent you have to do the research on your own, for example, use the product's name/model and search for reviews. There is no free lunch and I am not going to do this for you.

Quote
Most of them seem to be USB2 connectors whereas my laptop only has USB3... but I'm sure I'll find some USB3 versions when I look a bit harder.
USB2 is fully compatible with USB3. If the connector's shape is different you can use an adapter.

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #5 –
Well thanks for the reply again. The question was all about finding a low latency device so I'm a little unsure why you'd respond with USB to Optical to adaptor if you had no idea if they were low latency.

BTW. Why are you so unremittingly horrible?
Just step sideways....

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #6 –
Quote from: ModelCitizen on
Well thanks for the reply again.
Quote
BTW. Why are you so unremittingly horrible?
Don't pretend to be polite, I think it is horrible as well.

As I already mentioned in my previous reply:
Quote from: bennetng on
[1] No, don't ask me which adapter is the best, I don't know.
[2] These products most likely don't come with dedicated ASIO drivers, you may need a generic driver like ASIO4ALL or FlexASIO
A dedicated studio interface with a dedicated driver (like the Scarletts) will give more confidence in latency. But if you put cost into consideration then it is up to you to decide. Also, assumed you have already looked into the specs of these interfaces, the ones equipped with optical outputs are even more expensive.

As for USB3, I would give you an example like this:
https://rme-audio.de/digiface-usb.html
It is a USB2 interface with 66 channels. The optical interface has a variation called ADAT and is capable of transmitting 8 channels by using a single cable, so 8 optical ports with the headphone output there are totally 66 channels. So you can have an idea why USB3 is not used on those amazon adapters. This RME Digiface must be one of the lowest latency USB to optical interface in the market, if you are willing to pay, get it.

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #7 –
Quote
I have installed the Asio audio drivers so my issue is with speedy interface.
Your interface should have ASIO drivers.  (ASO4ALL may be an improvement over standard Windows drivers but it's not true ASIO.)

With ASIO you can adjust buffer size which is the main contributor to latency.  A buffer is also a delay.

You NEED buffers because your multitasking operating system is always multitasking and interrupting, even if you are only running one application.   So it's usually "other stuff" that determines the best latency you can get.   A smaller buffer gives you lower latency but depending on what's going-on in the background if the buffers are too small you get buffer overflow (recording) or buffer underflow (playback/monitoring) and a glitch in your audio.

MIDI, real-time effects, and Bluetooth will add their own latency.

There is a FREE online book called Glitch Free about optimizing your computer for audio.

IMO - The BEST solution is to monitor yourself without going through the computer.  Then latency doesn't matter.   Many interfaces have zero-latency direct-hardware monitoring.   But with a keyboard, you need one that generates audio as well as MIDI (not just a MIDI controller) and what you're hearing won't sound exactly your DAW's virtual instrument(s).    Of course, you also can't use any real-time effects in your monitoring path.

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #8 –
Quote from: ModelCitizen on
A USB to Optical looks good but some of them say they are analogue to digital converters which is confusing as I
want to take a digital signal from my laptop to the optical input of my hifi DAC.
Which in particular?  Unless you are specific, how can anyone comment?

Are you sure the "analogue to digital" part is not the audio input interface?

Quote
I'm also quite unclear about the latency of these devices and if they'd be fast enough for a keyboard input.

You will get the lowest latency from an analogue connection.  Adapting between serial digital standards generally requires at least a small amount of buffering to reformat the packet, so going USB to TOSLink (or whatever) and then TOSLink to analogue (in your amp) will be slower than USB to analogue.  Not that it should amount to very much.

The best latency would be from an audio card on the PCI bus, but you said you're using a laptop, so unless it has PCIe...

Quote
Most of them seem to be USB2 connectors whereas my laptop only has USB3... but I'm sure I'll find some USB3 versions when I look a bit harder.
As stated above, that's a non-problem.  Are you honestly saying you've never plugged a USB2 device into a USB3 port (or vice versa)?
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #9 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
I have installed the Asio audio drivers so my issue is with speedy interface.
Your interface should have ASIO drivers.  (ASO4ALL may be an improvement over standard Windows drivers but it's not true ASIO.)

With ASIO you can adjust buffer size which is the main contributor to latency.  A buffer is also a delay.

You NEED buffers because your multitasking operating system is always multitasking and interrupting, even if you are only running one application.   So it's usually "other stuff" that determines the best latency you can get.   A smaller buffer gives you lower latency but depending on what's going-on in the background if the buffers are too small you get buffer overflow (recording) or buffer underflow (playback/monitoring) and a glitch in your audio.

MIDI, real-time effects, and Bluetooth will add their own latency.

There is a FREE online book called Glitch Free about optimizing your computer for audio.

IMO - The BEST solution is to monitor yourself without going through the computer.  Then latency doesn't matter.   Many interfaces have zero-latency direct-hardware monitoring.   But with a keyboard, you need one that generates audio as well as MIDI (not just a MIDI controller) and what you're hearing won't sound exactly your DAW's virtual instrument(s).    Of course, you also can't use any real-time effects in your monitoring path.

Thanks @DVDDoug. That's was very useful. It looks like my understanding of this is wrong. As I have already set the laptop up to serve the DAW (as well as it is able) and installed the Asio4All drivers I thought the only task left was to get the signals to the amplifer as quickly as possible.

I just want to have a bit of fun jamming with the DAW in the lounge when the mood takes me and this means as little set up and preparation as possible. Ideally I'd just plug a lead into the laptop and be off. This why I first tried Bluetooth. Dead simple and enables me to fidget around a lot on the sofa... but the delay meant that jamming along was not possible.

It's beginning to look like my best option might be to move my Focusrite Scarlett from the office to the lounge and get a 2m lead. This is a bit of a shame as my hifi is a bit unusual and doesn't take well to analogue inputs and I really wanted to use the DAC in the streamer because anything that comes out of the streamer sounds gorgeous.

I might try a USB 3 to optical cable if I can find one just to see what it's like. I can always return it if it's crap.

So, thanks!

And to the other two respondants who mentioned the compatibility of USB 2 and USB 3. Thanks, I'd assumed USB3 would be better than USB 2
Just step sideways....

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #10 –
Quote from: ModelCitizen on
I really wanted to use the DAC in the streamer because anything that comes out of the streamer sounds gorgeous.
If you really do mean "streamer" (which I take to mean a client served over the network), that's going to be horrible lag-wise.

Quote from: ModelCitizen on
And to the other two respondants who mentioned the compatibility of USB 2 and USB 3. Thanks, I'd assumed USB3 would be better than USB 2
USB3 is better than USB2, but that doesn't mean USB2 isn't up to the task at hand.  I mean, 480Mbps is hardly to be sniffed at.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ModelCitizen on
And to the other two respondants who mentioned the compatibility of USB 2 and USB 3. Thanks, I'd assumed USB3 would be better than USB 2
Just to be clear, connector shape is not a reliable indicator of the transmission protocol. So you can try to find a product with Type-C connector to avoid the use of an adapter or buying a compatible cable, but it does not mean the protocol is USB3.
X

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #12 –
To the best of my knowledge, it is not about USB 1,2 or 3 but about UAC1 or UAC2.
USB Audio Class 1 (1998) requires Full Speed (12 Mb/s). This is typical USB1 so even when USB2 came around, UAC1 simple sticks to USB1 in Full Speed.
Likewise UAC2 (2009) uses High Speed (480 Mb/s). Even if the bus allows for USB3, it simply stick to USB2 in High Speed.
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: DAW. Connect laptop to hifi. Best way to reduce latency.

Reply #13 –
Surprisingly, HDMI might be the way to go as graphics integrated audio tends to be low latency. For testing connect your laptop to HDMI monitor with audio (or TV with low latency mode like Gaming), configure your DAW to use your integrated graphics audio interface over ASIO or WASAPI with buffer as low as possible without underruns, and go from there. I have no experience with video over Thunderbolt or USB-C but if your laptop supports it you may be lucky too - I suspect that they simply multiplex or even pass on certain pins low latency HDMI or DisplayPort protocols...