HydrogenAudio

Lossless Audio Compression => WavPack => Topic started by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-15 16:29:31

Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-15 16:29:31
Hello, All!
Does anyone know how to create iso.wv image using mkisofs?
Comand mkisofs -r -J -o mydisc.iso.wv myfolder does not work. 
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-15 19:51:03
Let's see, "mkisofs"… What function does that name suggest: "Make ISO", perhaps? Not anything else, for example "Take the files in this folder and make them into a WavPack image", if that's even what you want. I've never heard of such a thing as an "iso.wv image".

From the official mkisofs manual page (http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/man/cdrecord/mkisofs.8.html):
Quote
mkisofs is effectively a pre-mastering program to generate an ISO-9660/JOLIET/HFS/UDF hybrid filesystem.

Not an audio image (WavPack compressed or otherwise), cue sheet, or anything else.

I'd suggest that you be clearer about what you want, but I think you may need to do some basic research to know what you want.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-16 10:58:09
I've never heard of such a thing as an "iso.wv image".

If you never heard about a such thing it's does not mean, that a such thing is not exist   
If you do not believe, I can upload a such file, which you can mount/burn as native ISO image and  listen in foobar such as sound file.
And my goal is understand which parameters of ISO image I need to use to make a such file.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: bryant on 2010-03-16 15:07:37
I would be interested in downloading and trying such a file (for obvious reasons). 

I have never seen one either, but I just searched and see they're somewhat common (but I could not find a torrent for one that worked).

Thanks,
David
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-16 15:15:15
I would be interested in downloading and trying such a file (for obvious reasons). 

I have never seen one either, but I just searched and see they're somewhat common (but I could not find a torrent for one that worked).

Thanks,
David

I sent you link. See you private messages.
P.S.: David, your codec is the best IMHO. 
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: lvqcl on 2010-03-16 16:46:51
IIRC .WV file should be the very first file inside .ISO container. That's all (never tried to make such files though).
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: greynol on 2010-03-16 17:36:57
I'm having this debate elsewhere.  The point is that red book audio is not ISO.  I'm of the opinion that it is simply a misuse of the term "ISO image" when it is used to describe audio.

To the notion, "If you never heard about a such thing it's does not mean, that a such thing is not exist," that the misuse is common does not make it correct.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: skamp on 2010-03-17 09:56:41
Well, will someone please explain in detail what it is?
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 10:03:50
Well, will someone please explain in detail what it is?

iso.wv - it is method to store WavPack audiofile + log + cue + JPEGS + etc inside ISO image. You can easily try to search in Google  torrents in this format and test it in foobar. And it's works.
P.S.: It's not RedBook.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-17 10:16:04
Since (I hope) no one would want to burn a CD from such an 'image', I can only assume that the perceived benefit is the archiving of multiple files into one, without redundant (and ineffective) compression. In that case, I'd argue that using a regular archiver in 'store' mode would be more logical--but trying to apply logic to piracy in such a way is probably futile.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: itisljar on 2010-03-17 12:07:51
It is not ISO image; it is wv + cue + whatever file inside zip file.

Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 12:26:18
It is not ISO image; it is wv + cue + whatever file inside zip file.

Look at this:
file Vladimir_Vysotskiy_-_Luchshee_Tom_1_CD1_\(2008_eac_wv_cue_log_covers_tags\)_by_doremi.iso.wv
Vladimir_Vysotskiy_-_Luchshee_Tom_1_CD1_(2008_eac_wv_cue_log_covers_tags)_by_doremi.iso.wv: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data '\302\340\350\350 \302\361\366\350 - \313\367\345 \362\354'


It's ISO9660 file - not archive. In fact, it's not an AudioCD (Red Book), it is DATA CD. So, if you burn it, you will get a DATA CD with files (wv + cue + whatever) inside.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 12:49:15
Since (I hope) no one would want to burn a CD from such an 'image', I can only assume that the perceived benefit is the archiving of multiple files into one, without redundant (and ineffective) compression. In that case, I'd argue that using a regular archiver in 'store' mode would be more logical--but trying to apply logic to piracy in such a way is probably futile.

I would recommend that you to try and see how it works, and only then judge what you have never heard of. 
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 12:58:58
IIRC .WV file should be the very first file inside .ISO container. That's all (never tried to make such files though).

I know about this limitation. I used -sort option of mikisofs. But result is the same: file is playing, but no tracks showed and no pictures showed in foobar. Even if CUESHEET is embedded in WavPack file with -w "CUESHEET=@file.cue".
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-17 13:59:05
Since (I hope) no one would want to burn a CD from such an 'image', I can only assume that the perceived benefit is the archiving of multiple files into one, without redundant (and ineffective) compression. In that case, I'd argue that using a regular archiver in 'store' mode would be more logical--but trying to apply logic to piracy in such a way is probably futile.

I would recommend that you to try and see how it works, and only then judge what you have never heard of. 

You're missing the point: I now have heard of it, and think it's rather silly, due to it being by nature an illogical way to store audio data.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 14:26:51
Since (I hope) no one would want to burn a CD from such an 'image', I can only assume that the perceived benefit is the archiving of multiple files into one, without redundant (and ineffective) compression. In that case, I'd argue that using a regular archiver in 'store' mode would be more logical--but trying to apply logic to piracy in such a way is probably futile.

I would recommend that you to try and see how it works, and only then judge what you have never heard of. 

You're missing the point: I now have heard of it, and think it's rather silly, due to it being by nature an illogical way to store audio data.

I understand your theory. You argue and criticize without understanding, in practice, what it is. This is even more stupid from my point of view. You first try to use it, and only then to criticize. Okay? I am willing to practical suggestions on the topic. Your messages do not contain any alternative solutions.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-17 14:35:51
I understand what it is: storing an audio CD image and related files inside a data CD image, presumably for the sole purpose of bundling the files together (it certainly wouldn't make sense to burn a data CD from the ISO). As I have said, that is not what ISO images are designed for; people distributing (of course completely legal) releases in this way would do better to use a regular archiver, and thus avoid confusing (completely legal) downloaders between different CD and image formats.

For these reasons, I have no desire to try it--nor must I to form an opinion, which I really doubt would change if I did.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 15:00:05
I understand what it is: storing an audio CD image and related files inside a data CD image, presumably for the sole purpose of bundling the files together (it certainly wouldn't make sense to burn a data CD from the ISO). As I have said, that is not what ISO images are designed for; people distributing (of course completely legal) releases in this way would do better to use a regular archiver, and thus avoid confusing (completely legal) downloaders between different CD and image formats.

For these reasons, I have no desire to try it--nor must I to form an opinion, which I really doubt would change if I did.

Your mistake in that you don't understand main feature: you can at the same time use this file for playback in foobar2000 (without needing to extract data!)  and  as archive (if you will decide to burn CD). So, for example:
If you want to play this  -> you just open it in foobar2000 and you will get possibility play all tracks + possibility to view covers. NO NEED TO DO.
If you want to burn CD -> you just open it in 7-zip and extract cuesheet + wavpack. After you can burn AudioCD.
I hope, now you understand...
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-17 15:14:05
I see your point, but still don't think ISO is the best format. I know some players can play uncompressed archives in a similar way, but not whether foobar2000 can. IMO, extracting files is trivial, so workarounds like this are unnecessary.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 15:22:02
I see your point, but still don't think ISO is the best format. I know some players can play uncompressed archives in a similar way, but not whether foobar2000 can. IMO, extracting files is trivial, so workarounds like this are unnecessary.

If you have 7-zip, WinZIP, or WinRAR it's not a problem to extract data from iso.wv. But if you just want to playback tracks + view covers -> you have only ONE file. And you don't need to do anything. And this is advantage. But If you know how to create the similar using other type of archive (not ISO!) -- I will be glad to know how to do it. Could you explain me how to do it?
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: skamp on 2010-03-17 15:40:07
But If you know how to create the similar using other type of archive (not ISO!) -- I will be glad to know how to do it. Could you explain me how to do it?

Wouldn't Matroska be better suited for that?
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 15:49:38
But If you know how to create the similar using other type of archive (not ISO!) -- I will be glad to know how to do it. Could you explain me how to do it?

Wouldn't Matroska be better suited for that?

Waiting for explanation from you with REAL EXAMPLE.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-17 15:54:23
I've read that files in an uncompressed archive are playable without prior extraction in a player that skips the archive header. I seem to recall reading of MP3 files in a 'store' ZIP, which could be played as a single track, but I'm not sure.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 16:08:32
I've read that files in an uncompressed archive are playable without prior extraction in a player that skips the archive header. I seem to recall reading of MP3 files in a 'store' ZIP, which could be played as a single track, but I'm not sure.

Let's agree as follows: you find a method that allows to playback (without unpacking!) WavPack + CUE. Covers should also be visible. Next step - you will try it and sure that it works. After you get a full explanation how to use your method. And we'll look at it as an alternative. Ok? No theory, only practice. Ok? If your method will be better - I will agree to use it and forget about iso.wv. But it must be a real thing and not just a theory. Waiting for REAL THINGS from you. 
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 16:18:38
DEARS! LET'S TALK ABOUT ONLY THE REAL THINGS! 
If you have an alternate idea --> please show REAL EXAMPLE. If you know how to create iso.wv --> please show REAL EXAMPLE.
Let's stop to talk about theory. PLEASE!!! 
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-03-17 16:24:46
Three bags full, sir…

Stating my opinion that ISO is not the best format to spare people the horror of having to extract audio files before using them does not mandate that I suggest or design a better one, but I'll suggest one anyway: the original CD. Over and out.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-17 16:33:30
Three bags full, sir…

Stating my opinion that ISO is not the best format to spare people the horror of having to extract audio files before using them does not mandate that I suggest or design a better one, but I'll suggest one anyway: the original CD. Over and out.

I agree with you: original CD - the best. But It's offtopic, sir... Please stop to flood...
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: skamp on 2010-03-17 18:01:25
Waiting for explanation from you with REAL EXAMPLE.

Matroska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroska) is a multimedia container that can mix audio, video, images and other arbitrary types of files.
I know Foobar can play audio matroska files (.mka) and display cover artwork from those. I tried it a few years ago, it worked.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: WonderSlug on 2010-03-17 18:15:53
It is not ISO image; it is wv + cue + whatever file inside zip file.

Look at this:
file Vladimir_Vysotskiy_-_Luchshee_Tom_1_CD1_\(2008_eac_wv_cue_log_covers_tags\)_by_doremi.iso.wv
Vladimir_Vysotskiy_-_Luchshee_Tom_1_CD1_(2008_eac_wv_cue_log_covers_tags)_by_doremi.iso.wv: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data '\302\340\350\350 \302\361\366\350 - \313\367\345 \362\354'


It's ISO9660 file - not archive. In fact, it's not an AudioCD (Red Book), it is DATA CD. So, if you burn it, you will get a DATA CD with files (wv + cue + whatever) inside.


In that case, couldn't you just use a program like Nero, to burn all those .wv, .cue, .jpg, etc. files to an ISO image by using the destination as "Image Recorder CD-R/CD-RW" ?

That will create an ISO file with all that inside of it.

Then rename the file to .iso.wv
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: Fandango on 2010-03-17 18:48:34
I guess multi-session images would be one way of putting the wavpack file at the beginning, i.e. first session.

But I wonder why a player would support such a file if not because of a bug. What if that bug gets fixed? You can't play back those ISO images anymore.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: odyssey on 2010-03-17 21:05:19
But If you know how to create the similar using other type of archive (not ISO!) -- I will be glad to know how to do it. Could you explain me how to do it?

Wouldn't Matroska be better suited for that?

Waiting for explanation from you with REAL EXAMPLE.

So, how about iTunes LP? I think the format (or at least the idea of it) is great and similar to what you want to achieve. It is effectively stored in just a .zip archive (renamed) and AFAIR consists of some DHTML to provide navigation. Only downside could be restraints to formats etc, but I have never played with it so I don't know. Eventually when HD-AAC (SLS) comes around it may provide lossless compression out-of-the-box.

Would be nice with a tool to create these LP-files using pre-defined themes or something like that... And a player (foobar2000 especially) that supports it fully (well foobar2000 will at least be able to read the archive no matter what).
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: odyssey on 2010-03-17 22:43:49
If just the format defined albumcover...
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: Fandango on 2010-03-17 22:51:59
So, how about iTunes LP?

It needs a better name. 

Besides thread starter already said he wants to know about iso.wv only. Because it seems he wants to upload CD rips with some filesharing program. It seems the only people in the world who would want to listen to such a joke of a "file format" are some filesharers.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: greynol on 2010-03-17 23:02:46
...and then we get flooded with posts asking for help with their downloadz.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-18 07:35:39
It is not ISO image; it is wv + cue + whatever file inside zip file.

Look at this:
file Vladimir_Vysotskiy_-_Luchshee_Tom_1_CD1_\(2008_eac_wv_cue_log_covers_tags\)_by_doremi.iso.wv
Vladimir_Vysotskiy_-_Luchshee_Tom_1_CD1_(2008_eac_wv_cue_log_covers_tags)_by_doremi.iso.wv: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data '\302\340\350\350 \302\361\366\350 - \313\367\345 \362\354'


It's ISO9660 file - not archive. In fact, it's not an AudioCD (Red Book), it is DATA CD. So, if you burn it, you will get a DATA CD with files (wv + cue + whatever) inside.


In that case, couldn't you just use a program like Nero, to burn all those .wv, .cue, .jpg, etc. files to an ISO image by using the destination as "Image Recorder CD-R/CD-RW" ?

That will create an ISO file with all that inside of it.

Then rename the file to .iso.wv

Thank you for your answer 
Forgive me for my indiscretion, but I would like to make a remark: I am a certified IT-professional with higher engineering education, but not a beginner. For me not important question of finding a specific program, which I could make such a file. For me, it is important to understand exactly what options should be used in order to get the result. For example, ISO9660 level, Joilet, Rock Ridge, UDF and so on. And it would be nice to know about other similar decisions. And if they exist, I would like to have them complete technical information with real examples, not just an idea. Therefore, if anyone of you really know in detail what he said - please write about it. If there are links to technical documentation - please leads them. Otherwise, it will be just flood. Sorry if someone hurt. I have no purpose to brag, I just want to find the answer to my question.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-18 07:43:44
I guess multi-session images would be one way of putting the wavpack file at the beginning, i.e. first session.

But I wonder why a player would support such a file if not because of a bug. What if that bug gets fixed? You can't play back those ISO images anymore.

Multisession?
It's really good idea! THANKS! I will try to test it. And I think this feature - it's not a bug. I will also ask developer(s) of foobar2000 about this.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-18 07:52:33
If just the format defined albumcover...

Do you really try to create this by yourself?
Look at the documentation of format on http://www.apple.com/itunes/lp-and-extras/ (http://www.apple.com/itunes/lp-and-extras/) . IMHO it's much easy to use iso.wv. 
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-18 09:36:58
Waiting for explanation from you with REAL EXAMPLE.

Matroska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroska) is a multimedia container that can mix audio, video, images and other arbitrary types of files.
I know Foobar can play audio matroska files (.mka) and display cover artwork from those. I tried it a few years ago, it worked.

I tried to use Matroska and I successfully create an audio with cue. But cover artwork not showed. Could you please explain, how to do it visible?
P.S.: I think, that it will be better than iso.wv if cover artwork will works.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: skamp on 2010-03-18 09:44:23
I tried to use Matroska and I successfully create an audio with cue. But cover artwork not showed. Could you please explain, how to do it visible?
P.S.: I think, that it will be better than iso.wv if cover artwork will works.

IIRC, you need the "Album Art Panel for matroska" (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components_0.9/Album_Art_Panel_for_matroska_%28foo_uie_albumart_mka%29) component.
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-18 10:04:13
I tried to use Matroska and I successfully create an audio with cue. But cover artwork not showed. Could you please explain, how to do it visible?
P.S.: I think, that it will be better than iso.wv if cover artwork will works.

IIRC, you need the "Album Art Panel for matroska" (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components_0.9/Album_Art_Panel_for_matroska_%28foo_uie_albumart_mka%29) component.

I found that in case of foobar2000 v. 1.0.1 mka opens without any problems. If cover art named as cover.jpg(png) - it's showed. If I try to load component Art Panel --> I receive error. May be album art is already supported?
Also several questions:
1. Is it possible to playback this file in other players and OSes? I know, that Mastroska is cross-platform, but Audacious on my Linux desktop does not open it.
2. What about supporting of mka on PDA, MacOS & Linux?
3. Is it possible to view more than one file as cover art? (I mean front, back, disc pictures).
Title: iso.wv creation with mkisofs
Post by: vasiukoff on 2010-03-19 10:13:07
Dears,

Now I understand how it works (thanks to David ) and want to explain to other people how to use WavPack with file containers or media containers (thanks to Skamp). Probably it will be interesting for all.

Besides thread starter already said he wants to know about iso.wv only. Because it seems he wants to upload CD rips with some filesharing program. It seems the only people in the world who would want to listen to such a joke of a "file format" are some filesharers.


I'm not agree with Fandango — my goal just make an images of my legal CD's for myself.

I. File containers.

How it works and why it works.


But I wonder why a player would support such a file if not because of a bug. What if that bug gets fixed? You can't play back those ISO images anymore.


It works because the WavPack decoder library (and command-line program) will skip up to 1 MB of "garbage" looking for a WavPack header before giving up. So, if «garbage» smaller than 1MB and it's data — data of file container — it will works normally and it's not a bug. This allows to use several types of a such containers: ZIP, 7-ZIP (without compression, of course) etc and ISO9660.

Advantage of ZIP, 7-ZIP etc in that you can easily prepare a such image. Just make at the first time archive (for example, with 7-zip) with only WV file and then append to this archive other data — WV file will be in the «head» of archive. After that rename it into .WV and append to this file tags (CUE+Art Cover) with your favorite tag editor (for example, mp3tag and foobar2000).

Advantage of ISO9660 (comparing with ZIP, 7-ZIP etc) in that you can use it also like  DATA CD image: you can burn it (as DATA CD), you can play with it using Daemon tools, you can open it by WinRAR, WinZIP, 7-ZIP like ordinary archive. It's just a little bit more possibilities than using ZIP, 7-ZIP etc. Creation algorithm is the same: first time you add WV file and after you append to ISO9660 image other data. Rockridge and Joilet recommended. If you wnat to use mkisofs you must use it with -sort option. So, command like:

mkisofs -sort sort.txt -r -J -o myfile.iso.wv myfolderwithalldata

will works correctly. See man mkisofs for details.

Summary of advantages:



Summary of disadvantages:


II. Media container Matroska.

Martoska is developed especially to store in one file several different files.

How to use

Easiest way on Windows OS - you need to install mkvtoolnix and MkvExtractGUI (see http://www.matroska.org/ (http://www.matroska.org/) ) for pack and unpack matroska audio files (mka). See original Matroska  documentation how to do it.
Note: to make a cover of disc just attach image with name cover.(jpg|png).

Summary of advantages:


Summary of disadvantages:


NOTE
Foobar2000 works normally with all of described methods.


Best regards,
Artem.