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Topic: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss? (Read 6619 times) previous topic - next topic
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How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Hey guys, I want to prevent NIHL (Noise induced hearing loss) when listening with my headphones, and was wondering if there was a way to measure my gear so I know the maximum safe listening level. I've got a JDS The Element hooked up to my PC which is set at 98% speaker level in Windows. What I'm thinking is that I want to put a little "maximum safe volume" marker on the JDS Element so that I know that if I turn the knob beyond that marker, there is risk of damaging my hearing.

Please let me know how I can achieve this, or if there is another, better way. Thanks in advance!

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #1 –
You can research OSHA regulations for workplace noise exposure.  They generally are of the "X dB for no more than Y hours" form.  With headphones it's very easy to exceed these levels.  You'd need to place your headphones while attached to all your equipment on a "dummy" measurement head to capture the SPL at the ear.  This is not particularly convenient for most people.  You can get a rough reading by using an SPL level app on your phone.  Stick the phone mic right into the ear cup and close it off as best possible with your hand.  Again, this is going to be a "rough and ready" reading.  If in doubt, turn it down!

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #2 –
Do you have an SPL meter?  A phone app is better than nothing but I doubt that the mic built into a phone is calibrated.

Headphone levels are hard to measure but if you play around with an SPL meter in "real life" for a few days you should be able to get a feel for loudness and for what's safe.

If you "feel deaf" temporarily after listening that's a Temporary Threshold Shift, you are listening too loud and over time your hearing may not completely recover.   (If you are not experiencing a TTS, you may still be listening too loud and slowly accumulating hearing loss.)

Quote
What I'm thinking is that I want to put a little "maximum safe volume" marker on the JDS Element
That's not reliable because some recordings are louder than others, and some styles of music are louder than others.    (Although it will help of you use ReplayGain.)

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #3 –
My method is:
don't set it very loud all the time.

My alternative method is:
If you feel a small suspicion it might be too loud, don't notch it down a little, but turn it down a lot, let your ears adjust for 10-30 seconds, then bring it back up (if necessary). The level is almost guaranteed to be significantly less than before.

But "don't set it very loud all the time" is still good advice, because I feel you can hear when you're playing your music loudly.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
You can research OSHA regulations for workplace noise exposure.  They generally are of the "X dB for no more than Y hours" form.  With headphones it's very easy to exceed these levels.  You'd need to place your headphones while attached to all your equipment on a "dummy" measurement head to capture the SPL at the ear.  This is not particularly convenient for most people.  You can get a rough reading by using an SPL level app on your phone.  Stick the phone mic right into the ear cup and close it off as best possible with your hand.  Again, this is going to be a "rough and ready" reading.  If in doubt, turn it down!

Quote from: DVDdoug on
Do you have an SPL meter?  A phone app is better than nothing but I doubt that the mic built into a phone is calibrated.

Headphone levels are hard to measure but if you play around with an SPL meter in "real life" for a few days you should be able to get a feel for loudness and for what's safe.

If you "feel deaf" temporarily after listening that's a Temporary Threshold Shift, you are listening too loud and over time your hearing may not completely recover.  (If you are not experiencing a TTS, you may still be listening too loud and slowly accumulating hearing loss.)

Okay, I'll download an app on my phone for now. If I want a more precise measurement, would you guys recommend an SPL meter or should I go for something completely different? I'd be willing to spend some money on a useful measurement instrument but not insane amounts. I just want something reliable, and if an SPL meter won't do me any good anyhow then I'd rather not waste time and money on it.

Thanks for the TTS tip, but I would very much like to prevent that from occuring!!!

Quote
That's not reliable because some recordings are louder than others, and some styles of music are louder than others.    (Although it will help of you use ReplayGain.)

I use Replaygain so music should be level. I guess I could do further measurements while I'm gaming and watching movies and plot all my measurements to find out where the average loudness falls. I'm guessing at some point if you turn down the volume enough it doesn't matter how loud the recording is, the dynamics will not be able to reach above a certain volume (hope you can understand).

Quote from: dhromed on
My method is:
don't set it very loud all the time.

My alternative method is:
If you feel a small suspicion it might be too loud, don't notch it down a little, but turn it down a lot, let your ears adjust for 10-30 seconds, then bring it back up (if necessary). The level is almost guaranteed to be significantly less than before.

But "don't set it very loud all the time" is still good advice, because I feel you can hear when you're playing your music loudly.

Thanks. I must remember not to play it loud, I just feel like I can easily be caught up in some great music and then turn it up to really experience the great parts. And since your ears adapt to the loudness, suddenly you've been listening for hours at a high volume! This is why I want to try and prevent this subjective judgement of loudness and just put a marker on the volume knob so I can precisely know, "this far and no further!".

And thank you all for your replies, much appreciated.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #5 –
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.
It's apparent that you will always get that 'ringing' in your ears after visiting a live concert, and that's for certain probably not healthy if done on a regular basis. But how on Earth you'd get those decibels at home?
Just choose what is comfortable enough and enjoy. As a teen, I always thought "the louder, the better" --be it in my speakers or headphones.
I'm not a teen anymore and my hearing is not impaired by experiments in youth at all.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Leo 69 on
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.

Wow, I'm amazed at this viewpoint because I always considered hydrogenaudio to be an objective forum based on science and not on anecdotal evidence.

Obviously I completely disagree with your statement, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion because I find the scientific evidence for the correlation between exposure to loud noise (e.g. through listening at a concert or through headphones) and hearing loss to be overwhelming. So, the premise of this thread is, of course, that such a correlation does indeed exist, and I would very much like the focus to be on a solution to my original question.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #7 –
Quote
And since your ears adapt to the loudness, suddenly you've been listening for hours at a high volume!
And that would be a temporary threshold shift.   (Although your brain can adjust too, at levels that may not be harmful.)

Quote
It's apparent that you will always get that 'ringing' in your ears after visiting a live concert, and that's for certain probably not healthy if done on a regular basis. But how on Earth you'd get those decibels at home?
You haven't seen the 8-foot speaker stack in my living room!  :D  :D    (I do have big speakers but I don't really "utilize" them at home.)

Just about any headphone can go loud enough to damage your hearing, and probably loud enough to cause ringing your ears after a couple of hours.   There are (voluntary?) standards for portable devices and laptops.    But, different headphones have different sensitivity and some equipment isn't artificially limited.  

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #8 –
Okay so I downloaded an SPL app, but it needs to be calibrated either using backroom noise or pink noise tuned using an...SPL meter. Another issue is that the headphone cup is too small to fit my smartphone phone mic. So, I think I'll buy an SPL meter. Any brand/model suggestions?

EDIT: Also, I checked OSHA regulations and they suggest a maximum of 85dBA for 8 hours a day.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Openmusic on
Also, I checked OSHA regulations and they suggest a maximum of 85dBA for 8 hours a day.
This surprises me. 85dB is louder than you think. I've wouldn't want to be exposed to that 8 hours a day!

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
Quote from: Openmusic on
Also, I checked OSHA regulations and they suggest a maximum of 85dBA for 8 hours a day.
This surprises me. 85dB is louder than you think. I've wouldn't want to be exposed to that 8 hours a day!

That's good, means you can enjoy your music at a pleasant level without damaging your hearing!

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
Quote from: Openmusic on
Also, I checked OSHA regulations and they suggest a maximum of 85dBA for 8 hours a day.
This surprises me. 85dB is louder than you think. I've wouldn't want to be exposed to that 8 hours a day!

It's around the level of some lawn equipment such as riding lawn mowers.  At that level you basically can't hear yourself talk.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #12 –
 most official recommendations are aimed to limit work related damages. they're not magical values to keep perfect ears until we die, but more like compromises between shutting down most factories for being too loud, and having people sue their boss all year long.
instead of feeling reassured by a number, which isn't always easy to do anyway, I would suggest to simply follow the basic rules of "don't be an idiot":
if it feels real loud, then it's too loud.
if there is already a lot of noise, don't cover it with even louder music (I'm thinking blasting the radio in a noisy car, headphones on planes...), instead get some ear plugs if the noises alone feels loud.
if you want to enjoy something at a loud level, do it, having some fun sometimes isn't such a bad idea, but make an effort not to make it last long, and remember to go back to reasonable volume levels right after. or even better, take sound breaks as often as possible, for 10seconds, for 5mn, for a night, they're all good to take. might not help for permanent damages, but the eardrum can't stop moving if there is sound, so a moment at calm can certainly have some impact on listening fatigue. if only to give a break to the muscle dampening the eardrum under loud pressure.


what Leo said is a troll (or pure ignorance?) and should be treated as such of course.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #13 –
There is no music that is worth losing your hearing for.

I don't about you but 40% volume on iPhone with IEMs is already plenty loud for me, never felt the need to go higher.

I'm 29, took good care of my hearing and and can only hear 12KHz at best, and I have no idea what 20KHz even sounds like since I never got ears tested as a child (I have a nephew who can't even hear anything at all at birth - thanks to our shitty family genetics). To be honest I'm pretty pissed by those who can abuse their ears or much older and can still hear better than I do.

Protect your ears (and teeth) people.

As a side rant, I always chuckle whenever people say how advanced medical science is, when we can't even cure something as minor as tinnitus.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Openmusic on
Quote from: Leo 69 on
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.

Obviously I completely disagree with your statement, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion because I find the scientific evidence for the correlation between exposure to loud noise (e.g. through listening at a concert or through headphones) and hearing loss to be overwhelming.

Please link me to scientific evidence that is overwhelming. I want to see actual scientific studies.

Quote from: castleofargh on
what Leo said is a troll (or pure ignorance?) and should be treated as such of course.

Neither. My message is that what is comfortable for you in regard to loudness, that exactly is your happy medium. Organism knows better, it is not stupid. The main thesis of this thread is to indirectly accuse the organism of its stupidity, which is certainly beyond ridiculous.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #15 –
Quote
Please link me to scientific evidence that is overwhelming. I want to see actual scientific studies.

I can't be bothered to search for scientific articles right now, but let me just get this straight, you don't believe in NIHL, so you think you would be perfectly fine standing next to a jet plane taking off? You don't believe that exposure to noise at 125 dB will give you physical pain? You don't believe that your eardrums will burst with exposure to 140 dB?

This is truly remarkable. It's like talking to a believer in flat earth theory.

Quote
Organism knows better, it is not stupid.

My organism wants to eat pizza and drink soda all day while remaining as immobile as possible. I dare say it does not know better and relying on it would be stupid.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Openmusic on
Quote
Please link me to scientific evidence that is overwhelming. I want to see actual scientific studies.

I can't be bothered to search for scientific articles right now, but let me just get this straight, you don't believe in NIHL, so you think you would be perfectly fine standing next to a jet plane taking off? You don't believe that exposure to noise at 125 dB will give you physical pain? You don't believe that your eardrums will burst with exposure to 140 dB?

This is truly remarkable. It's like talking to a believer in flat earth theory.

I know that a gunshot near your ear can leave you half deaf even permanently. I'm asking you for studies, where listening to loud music through headphones can cause any harm. I say it won't do any harm, since you will not tolerate high volume for a long time and will want to notch it down anyway at some point. Ask your brain why would it want to do that.

Quote
My organism wants to eat pizza and drink soda all day while remaining as immobile as possible. I dare say it does not know better and relying on it would be stupid.

I'm talking about self-preservation. Two integral parts of self-preservation is PAIN and FEAR.
When your ears are in PAIN from loudness, you will want to turn the volume down automatically.

Eating pizza, drinking soda and remaining immobile will inevitably lead to pain (various diseases) and fear (for your health). It's just a matter of damaging process being prolonged up until the point where you will finally start taking care of yourself.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #17 –
Google "permanent threshold shift" and studies if you're looking for scientific evidence.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Leo 69 on
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.

Absolutely true - they're both the same kind of hoax, which is to say: none at all.

Google "scientific evidence for music induced hearing loss" and start reading.  Numerous scientific studies to read, which should keep you busy for a while.  Then you can google "scientific evidence for climate change" and spend another few days un-learning some erroneous assumptions.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Nichttaub on
Quote from: Leo 69 on
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.

Absolutely true - they're both the same kind of hoax, which is to say: none at all.

Google "scientific evidence for music induced hearing loss" and start reading.  Numerous scientific studies to read, which should keep you busy for a while.  Then you can google "scientific evidence for climate change" and spend another few days un-learning some erroneous assumptions.

Thanks. This is what I've googled for you (notice: you haven't provided a single link to me). Enjoy your reading.

http://www.tonedeaf.com.au/293620/loud-music-doesnt-damage-hearing-it-protects-them-ear-study-reveals.htm
http://gizmodo.com/5643667/loud-music-doesnt-affect-hearing-as-much-as-previously-thought
http://thejetstreamjournal.com/2241/in-depth-articles/crushing-the-myth-that-headphones-destroy-hearing/

https://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Leo 69 on
tps://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

There's an easy way to spot the ones that promote junk science. Look for the use of 1998 as the division between before and after. The anomalously high temperature of 1998 makes the rate of temperature rise before 1998 look anomalously high, and the rate after 1998 to look anomalously low.

They also fail to explain how 15 of the 16 warmest years since recording began have occurred since 2001.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Leo 69 on
Quote from: Nichttaub on
Quote from: Leo 69 on
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.

Absolutely true - they're both the same kind of hoax, which is to say: none at all.

Google "scientific evidence for music induced hearing loss" and start reading.  Numerous scientific studies to read, which should keep you busy for a while.  Then you can google "scientific evidence for climate change" and spend another few days un-learning some erroneous assumptions.

Thanks. This is what I've googled for you (notice: you haven't provided a single link to me). Enjoy your reading.

http://www.tonedeaf.com.au/293620/loud-music-doesnt-damage-hearing-it-protects-them-ear-study-reveals.htm

Interesting. The article you cite says:

"University of NSW professor Gary Housley has quashed the myth that when we experience temporary hearing loss after being exposed to loud music at a concert it is causing permanent damage, as Nine News reports."

But it is a paraphrase of a paraphrase of a...   Momma told me to be careful with paraphrases and always try to get original source material. ;-)

What does the good Doctor say for himself?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378595516303070

"Exposure to intense sound or noise can result in purely temporary threshold shift (TTS), or leave a residual permanent threshold shift (PTS) along with alterations in growth functions of auditory nerve output. Recent research has revealed a number of mechanisms that contribute to noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL). The principle cause of NIHL is damage to cochlear hair cells and associated synaptopathy. Contributions to TTS include reversible damage to hair cell (HC) stereocilia or synapses, while moderate TTS reflects protective purinergic hearing adaptation. PTS represents permanent damage to or loss of HCs and synapses. While the substrates of HC damage are complex, they include the accumulation of reactive oxygen species and the active stimulation of intracellular stress pathways, leading to programmed and/or necrotic cell death. Permanent damage to cochlear neurons can also contribute to the effects of NIHL, in addition to HC damage. These mechanisms have translational potential for pharmacological intervention and provide multiple opportunities to prevent HC damage or to rescue HCs and spiral ganglion neurons that have suffered injury. This paper reviews advances in our understanding of cellular mechanisms that contribute to NIHL and their potential for therapeutic manipulation."

Looks to me like he's saying that listening to loud sounds can permanently damage your ears, no?

Quote
http://gizmodo.com/5643667/loud-music-doesnt-affect-hearing-as-much-as-previously-thought

If I woere you, I'd read what I quote before you post it because right up front it says:

"It's worth bearing in mind that prolonged exposure to excessively loud music will do damage to your hearing..."

What's unclear about that? It says loud sounds can damage your hearing.

Quote
http://thejetstreamjournal.com/2241/in-depth-articles/crushing-the-myth-that-headphones-destroy-hearing/

What it really says is that headphones won't necessarily harm your hearing, it is loudness levels that if too high, will permanently damage your hearing.

Congratulations! That's another one of your references that argues against your apparent hypothesis.

No way does it say that loud sounds can't hurt your hearing.

Quote
https://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

Irrelevant to a discussion of audio.  Its about global warming which is a much, much more subtle effect.   If you read your own references, several say that overly loud sounds will permanently damage your ears. I think one may have said that people can see the damage to hearing hair cells with a microscope.  In any case, that is also true.  How much direct evidence does one need?

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: pdq on
Quote from: Leo 69 on
tps://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

There's an easy way to spot the ones that promote junk science. Look for the use of 1998 as the division between before and after. The anomalously high temperature of 1998 makes the rate of temperature rise before 1998 look anomalously high, and the rate after 1998 to look anomalously low.

More to the point, correlation is not the same as causality.

Quote
They also fail to explain how 15 of the 16 warmest years since recording began have occurred since 2001.



They shouldn't need to because we know a goodly number of reasons why that happens and has happened without any help from man.  

For example, there was obviously a lot of steady warming after The Little Ice Age because many of the symptoms of that little affair have disappeared.  That was only a few 100's of years back.

For example, the geological record seems to show that the temperature of the earth's atmosphere, as well as its chemical make up, has gone through dramatic changes long before The Industrial Age.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not denying the possibility of actual human-induced global warming, it is just the there seems to be an abundance of questionable arguments on both sides.   Since global warming can have such disastrous effects on humans, we ought to try to keep it under control.  The obvious reasons for ignoring it seem to be greed, greed, and oh by the way greed.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Leo 69 on
I've always considered loss of hearing due to excessive loudness (volume) the same kind of hoax as the global warming is.

Wow. I'm reading a book about how and why people believe in obvioiusly wonrg things, and this would be a good example of such a thing.

Quote
It's apparent that you will always get that 'ringing' in your ears after visiting a live concert,

That's false. I've been to dozens of live concerts without any ear ringing.  Of course I'm broad minded enough to listen to a little classical music from time to time.  That can help, although ear damage due to loud sounds is a common problem with professional classical musicians and not just the ones that play instruments like percussion and brass that we normally think of as being loud.

Quote
and that's for certain probably not healthy if done on a regular basis.

In the extreme cases, its not healthy if you do that just once.

Quote
But how on Earth you'd get those decibels at home?

An audio system with good dynamic range.

And headphones.

Just crank 'er up!

Quote
Just choose what is comfortable enough and enjoy.

That can work for a lot of people, but there are also a lot of people who for whatever reason really like music played ear-damagingly loud. It turns out to be like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you turn the music up too lound, after a while you will damage your ears such that you have to turn it up way loud  to hear enough of it with your damaged ears, to enjoy it.

Quote
As a teen, I always thought "the louder, the better" --be it in my speakers or headphones.

Good chance that might have damaged your ears.

Quote
I'm not a teen anymore and my hearing is not impaired by experiments in youth at all.

Based on what objective measure?

However, just as George Burns smoked like a chimney and lived to be 100, most people who smoke are suffering the bad effects by the time they are 65.  Some people can take stupid risks and just don't get hurt.

Re: How to measure and set safe listening level to prevent hearing loss?

Reply #24 –
The most trained and sensitive persons are able too feel their stapedian reflex and the tension on the ossicular chain.
The stapedian muscle stay in tension few seconds after each sound agression, releasing his mechnical force progessively, this tension tame the dynamics of the music by limiting the motion of the ossicular chain and the ear drum.
In this case the reflex for thoses who don't feel it accurately their stapedian reflex is to raise the volume to restore the dynamics again and again... this muscle is going to tired out, stop to protect you from yourself and serious cochlea damages occur.

There is a simple technique, put a calibrated microphone near you ear and then snap you fingers as fas as your arm can.
Snap your fingers many times as loud as you can (i'm 80dB, MJ was 100dB)
Then when you are listening to your music snap your fingers (as far as you can) and you must hear it well even in the loudest passages of your music.
If you can't hear it... stop immediately your music and wait few minutes for the stapedian muscle recovering.