DRM Issues -- with my own music

Topic: DRM Issues -- with my own music (Read 4845 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

2005-01-28 08:37:33

I've also asked this question on the Minidisc forum but can't get any satisfactory answers there so am hoping the more knowlegeable people on this Forum might have an answer here.

I use minidisc recorders for recording live music -- I love the small very convevient portable HI-MD units and the quality is superb -- the new HI-MD units also allow you to record Digitally in PCM (lossless).

The problem now starts when you want to copy to computer and edit / or whatever.

Sony seems to be absolutely paranoid about copying music so the result of this is you can download (or is it upload) your music to ONE COMPUTER ONLY.

I have real problems with this as

a) On the road I use a laptop. When I get back to the studio I want to process / remix or whatever on any available computer in the Network --- can't be done unless you transfer back from computer into the minidisc machine and then copy back again and there again you can only use 1 computer --- so unless you get some very expensive real pro stuff which allows you ro bypass SCMS you've had it --you can't even let anothe band member edit a part of the recording on another machine --this stupid DRM restricts you to 1 COMPUTER AT A TIME. Grrrrrrhhhhh.

b) if you get a computer crash (anybody ever used Windoze without a crash / re-install) then when you restore / recover windows from a backup image like GHOST then Sony trashes your music library saying --These tracks originated from a Different computer -- can't process.

c) Can't copy digitally again unless you do it in real time -- a pain if you want to distribute say 50 copies as samplers etc.

I understand the problems of piracy --but surely legitimate musicians should be allowed to freely DISTRIBUTE THEIR OWN MUSIC -- I own the rights --not Sony etc. and you can't help a computer crash --but it shouldn't trash your library on restore either.

There seem to be a lot of knowlegeable audiophiles on this board so hopefully some of you might have come up against this problem and dealt with it. If you have I would be really greatful for some solutions that don't involve buying expensive professional decks or doing it in Real time.

Thanks

(Mods -- if this is posted in the wrong Forum area please move it).

-K

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #1 – 2005-01-28 11:58:07

scrap Sony and don't look back. They deserve it 100%.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #2 – 2005-01-28 13:33:47

Quote

scrap Sony and don't look back. They deserve it 100%.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=268854"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Then throw away your CDs, they've all been developed by Sony.

Quote

I use minidisc recorders for recording live music -- I love the small very convevient portable HI-MD units and the quality is superb -- the new HI-MD units also allow you to record Digitally in PCM (lossless).

Surely ?
I tend to not trust Sony: They say their HIMDs, MDs or whatever "support" wav, but in reality it's a trancoding process to MD-ATRAC. As far as I know, HI-MD can store any data file (thus also wav or lossless codecs), but can't do anything with them except transferring back to a computer.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #3 – 2005-01-28 13:44:58

Quote

I tend to not trust Sony: They say their HIMDs, MDs or whatever "support" wav, but in reality it's a trancoding process to MD-ATRAC. As far as I know, HI-MD can store any data file (thus also wav or lossless codecs), but can't do anything with them except transferring back to a computer.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=268872"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is pcm.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #4 – 2005-01-28 14:05:03

[OT] actually, CD was developed both by sony and philips, so you only need to throw out half your discs, or cut all of them in half... [/OT]

to be more useful, there may be something on this page that can help you. i don't own a MD recorder, so i can't vouch for these. i just googled "spdif scms hack" as the most likely way to remove scms. it turned up this page, so you might get lucky.

http://www.minidisc.org/part_hacking.html

in particular, this one looks interesting:

http://members.aol.com/BorusSylt/scms.htm

"Martin Borus has an interesting method of preventing SCMS by making a digital recording look like an analog one."

...just read the page and it basically says you can prevent the TOC being written (and thus the SCMS being written) by instead of hitting "stop" while duplicating the source, hit pause and remove the battery.

it also says "use at your own risk", so please don't flame me.

whether this help you or not i don't know, but it might at least help you with further gigs.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #5 – 2005-01-28 14:38:52

Quote

It is pcm.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What format is it then instead of ATRAC ? A special lossless codec, usable only with MD, like ATRAC ?

Quote

[OT] actually, CD was developed both by sony and philips, so you only need to throw out half your discs, or cut all of them in half... [/OT]

Quote

in particular, this one looks interesting:
[a href="http://members.aol.com/BorusSylt/scms.htm]http://members.aol.com/BorusSylt/scms.htm[/url]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=268880"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think you've missed the point, but the method described there should indeed work. I'll test it at once.
My own way of disabling TOC writing (standalone MD-recorder):
Usually, TOC writing is performed when ejecting the MD or turning the recorder off. So after the recording, suddenly disable the power supply, thus no TOC writing can be done. If you now enable the power supply again, TOC writing will be performed immediately. So before you do this, press "reset" at the recorder's back panel to clear the recorder's memory and to delete the saved TOC there. (One of my recorders has reset, the other one has a true off-switch. They're there because MD recorders are already such complex that they sometimes behave like a computer: They may work no longer properly, 'crash' like a OS does etc.)

quoted from this site:

Quote

In case you're interested how I found this out: I had a digital recording made from a CD. This MD suddenly gave me a TOC error, so I restored it by copying a different TOC onto it. Afterwards I was surprised to see that the SCMS protection was gone. (and so were the track marks, so don't do this with valuable recordings, kids!)

How the hell did he write a new TOC, but no new audio ?

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #6 – 2005-01-28 15:26:21

Using an scms remover doesn't help. You need to upload files to a computer using SonicStage and then convert files to wav using either himdrenderer (analog & digital recordings) or Sony's Wav converter (only supports recording from analog sources). These wav files don't contain any kind of drm.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #7 – 2005-01-28 18:12:32

This might be a dumb question but does the sony software let you burn your music? because then you could just burn and rip and it shouldnt' be a problem if it really is lossless.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #8 – 2005-01-28 20:38:09

Quote

This might be a dumb question but does the sony software let you burn your music? because then you could just burn and rip and it shouldnt' be a problem if it really is lossless.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sony software even allows you to convert directly to wav. See [a href="http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/walkmanmc/wav.html]http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/walkmanmc/wav.html[/url]

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #9 – 2005-01-28 22:31:06

Quote

Quote
This might be a dumb question but does the sony software let you burn your music? because then you could just burn and rip and it shouldnt' be a problem if it really is lossless.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sony software even allows you to convert directly to wav. See [a href="http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/walkmanmc/wav.html]http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/walkmanmc/wav.html[/url]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=268984"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This misses the point -- SS (Sonic Stage) will allow you to copy music to ONE and only ONE computer which is the problem if we want to edit different parts of the recording on different machines.

Also if you get a computer crash and have to restore your Windows installation or re-format your disk you can't then re-copy the music from your Minidisc to the computer.

You can only play it and copy in Real Time saving it as a WAV file either from an Optical output (which most portable minidiscs don't have) or play it via the USB and Sony's Sonic stage recorded as a WAV file and then fiddle around with a Wave editor such as in NERO.

A real pain but the minidisc is so portable and convenient and can record live gigs at very high quality (including lossless PCM) it's worth using in spite of the DRM hassles.

It's SONY's total paranoia about piracy which is hampering this format.

What is crazy is high end pro gear doesn't have the SCMS / DRM issues and we all know that Piracy is rampant in China and Asia where this high end stuff is used. Individual musicians shouldn't have all these problems copying their OWN music.

Cheers

-K

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #10 – 2005-01-31 03:20:10

Quote

It's SONY's total paranoia about piracy which is hampering this format.

little off topic here, but Sony have gone bye-bye ever since they got into the motion picture industry. for god's sake, these were the people suing them over the VCR all those years ago.

it's been said that consumer electronics companies live off the ability to make copies and use them on as many devices (made by that company of course) as possible. Sony seem to be shooting themselves in the feet.

indeed, the only thing i'd consider buying thats made by Sony is DVD recordables, because they're damn good. even with MD recorders, Sharp are known to make a better one.

..back on topic: did the TOC hacking work? if the only way to get the data off is through USB or optical in realtime, then by all means do that. get the stuff onto CDs as soon as possible, then you're free to do what you like.

some kind soul should come up with a firmware hack that turns on all the MD features that should have been there from the start

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #11 – 2005-01-31 03:32:13

What's funny is that manufacturers such as Sony claim SCMS as a product feature, i.e. something that you as a consumer would want. Get your bowl of acronym soup.

DRM Issues -- with my own music

Reply #12 – 2005-01-31 14:35:38

Quote

even with MD recorders, Sharp are known to make a better one.

Be careful. In Germany we have an idependent test magazine (no advertisement), founded by a former government; they didn't rank sharp generally better than Sony. Also sharp only (or mostly) produces MD-portables, no standalone recorders.

Quote

..back on topic: did the TOC hacking work? if the only way to get the data off is through USB or optical in realtime, then by all means do that. get the stuff onto CDs as soon as possible, then you're free to do what you like.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=269576"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It works!
A thing I think I should explain here:
The SCMS system consists of two steps:
-the general copy bit = "this audio is protected by copyright law" It is automatically set when an audio recorder (home or portable) records from an analogue source. It can be disabled when burning audio CDs and when using a soundcard's digital output. It is alway set on factory-pressed CDs.
-the additional copy bit = "this audio has already been copied digitally" If set on an audio recorder's digital input, it prevents the recording. It is automatically set during recording if the "general copy bit" is set. If this isn't the case, then the according audio is considered free material and can be recorded again and again, an infinite number of generation copies is possible, as long as all copies are digital.

Quote

What's funny is that manufacturers such as Sony claim SCMS as a product feature, i.e. something that you as a consumer would want. Get your bowl of acronym soup.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=269578"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed; in Sony style the say. "You can be sure that you always have the best quality, because you have the original." (SACD marketing trick)

Notice