Re: Seedeclip4 Mediaplayer entry deleted, edits undone and user blocked. Why?
Reply #20 – 2017-01-09 17:07:59
I now had a look at the rejected wiki article, and I side with those who find it deficient.I agree, I would remove or considerably shorten the section entitled 'Does clipping affect me?", I think I may have copied that bit in accidentally. Without that section I consider it fairly balanced. I have no problem at all with people wanting to change, alter, discuss anything. Why should I? What I object to is immediate and infinite bans without thought, consideration, knowledge or conforming to the Wiki policy itself. Now it just looks stupid with mistakes in it. Additionally the deletion of the SeeDeClip4 entry in the media server list was uncalled for. It is, after all, a media server, even if a mod does dislike me. I also note that no one has added Groovebasin since I mentioned it - it seems to be a very small, random list. I don't like the notion that clipping is something that can be fixed. The article makes it clear that it is guesswork, but I think the problem is more fundamental than that. Once the material is clipped, the damage is done, and nothing can undo it. People should not be given the impression that repair is possible. The audible effects of clipping may be made more agreeable in some cases, but the result is a matter of taste. In this sense, any product that advertises itself as a declipper is stifling expectations it can't fulfill.Again I agree, and to prove that I agree could you please read the last part of the post directly above yours? We have also progressed way beyond the point where mastering just results in clipping. Quite often these days you can't say whether the material is clipped, because the processing has become much more sophisticated. Mastering tools can play tricks with phase, and with frequency-selective dynamic processing, to increase the subjective loudness without causing simple clipping. The chances of undoing this are even more remote. It starts " Reply #17 – Today at 05:16:37 PM" The main point in Reply #17 was that I wrote a declipper around 12 years ago, but this year I finished a free software tool that tells you how well mastered the tracks are. This is how I know that all or most modern pop is clipped BTW, I have it on my screen in a big list. Additionally even in modern pop there is still simple clipping, compression with simple clipping and all the combinations in between - some modern tracks are easy to declip and look and sound pretty good afterwards. But yes, the information is lost, and the new information added to fill the vacuum (clip) is by definition, not the original. Personally I much prefer listening to the declipped version though. It is a bit ironic that we have a discussion about this now, as the time when simple clipping started to become a serious problem in CD mastering lies more that 15 years ago. In the arms race for higher loudness, the declippers seem hopelessly outdated.The discussion was had 15 years ago, and every year since. Last year I had a thought that if people could SEE the waveform they were playing they might realise something, somewhere might be wrong, because nothing else has worked. It's also rather sad that my initial attempts to spread this new idea - aimed at creating a groundswell of protest and demands for better sound - and planted right in the middle of the group who are most affected by it - was immediately greeted with deletions, banning and hostility. If a hobby audio site is happy with 15bit CD quality - where the missing bit is the most significant one - who am I to suggest how to move forward in HiFi? No one else cares, I listen to the best sound I can - based on better waveforms than anyone here has access to, so why do I bother? The decline of the HiFi industry has followed a close path with the degradation of dynamics in music. By removing any benefit HiFi had over the car radio the nation has - quite naturally - stopped buying HiFi. Because with modern pop - why would you? I have the huge benefit over todays buyers because I actually like the old stuff - which I can obtain in pretty good shape if I dodge the 'remasters', the next generation will never know good HiFi or sound. Short summary: I think that a declipper isn't a suitable weapon in the war that has been going on for two decades now. I wouldn't like to have a wiki article that conveys the false notion that it is.Agreed, which is why it's not just a declipper (and the free version doesn't declip BTW). It's a music server that shows you the mastering quality of each track so you can select the good ones. Also - about that wiki article - I couldn't find a 'Loudness War' entry in the Wiki (another huge omission?) and the 'Clipping' entry was inaccurate anyway so I fixed and added to that. I didn't want to spend too much time and effort editing the Wiki to add the history of the loudness war because I wanted to see any responses and comments to the additions I had made. As I was immediately banned and all traces of my edits deleted this turned out to be a Very Wise Move... Now I've answered all of your points, could you perhaps explain what you contributed to fighting the Loudness War as you've obviously been aware of it for some time?