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Topic: how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison? (Read 3820 times) previous topic - next topic
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how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

I  got to thinking about this when replying to a recent Audioholics editorial that reported results of a comparative listening session using vinyl and CD (and FLAC) sources. 


Is there a feasible method for  level-matching such a comparison to within 0.2dB?  I assume that the 'CD' would have to be a straight digitized version of the LP output , so that different mastering is not an issue.  I wonder also if one would have to have some test tones on the LP ...with music (constantly changing signal) I would think it would be very tough?

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #1 –
I spotted that article yesterday and got the impression that it was not intended to be a serious comparison. The messages I gleaned from it were:
1) chicks dig vinyl(!)
2) wine, food and music can go together well.

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Is there a feasible method for  level-matching such a comparison to within 0.2dB?  I assume that the 'CD' would have to be a straight digitized version of the LP output , so that different mastering is not an issue.  I wonder also if one would have to have some test tones on the LP ...with music (constantly changing signal) I would think it would be very tough?

If you can lay your hands on a meter (or an oscilloscope) with a peak hold feature, then ordinary music should be fine.

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #3 –
Play the same piece of music on both and record the voltage.

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #4 –
Quote
Is there a feasible method for level-matching such a comparison to within 0.2dB?
Not easy "at home" and probably not necessary*, but...

Of course, you need level/volume control on one or the other.  Connect your preamp-out to line-in on your soundcard and record it.  Then do the same with the CD output.  Now check the average level of both files with an audio editor.  Adjust & repeat 'till the average levels match.

Quote
I assume that the 'CD' would have to be a straight digitized version of the LP output, so that different mastering is not an issue.
It depends on the goal of the experiment.    If your goal is to see if a CD can be made to sound like vinyl, yes that's the way to do it.  It's been done, and yes you can make a CD sound like vinyl, but you can't make vinyl sound like CD.



* In the "real world" (where CDs & MP3s are not made from vinyl)  records sound obviously different from CD with or without level matching (even if from the same master).    Vinyl surface noise is the first thing you'll notice.  Getting the levels perfectly matched isn't going to eliminate vinyl (and preamp) noise.  You don't have to be a golden ear audiophile to hear the noise, so no one is going to question your "results".    In an A/B or ABX test, you'll probably also hear frequency response differences and possibly distortion differences.

On the other hand... If you want to compare CD (or WAV) to FLAC, you MUST level match because there will be no difference other than levels (on the same hardware, etc.).  And if you CLAIM to hear a difference, EVERYBODY HERE is going to question your results!

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Is there a feasible method for  level-matching such a comparison to within 0.2dB?

Even having a scope or meter to monitor the actual levels, using the gear mentioned in that showdown, the answer is "No". He said the level matching was, *ahem*, "a breeze" thanks to the 1dB level changes of the Oppo 105 disc player used, which of course just isn't fine enough to match the fixed level of the phono.

Almost all consumer gear, including virtually all modern day receivers, have volume increments of either the 1 dB or .5 dB, at best. Other gear would need to be installed in the signal path to have .1 or .2 dB precision.

I remember fiddling with some Sony recording equipment which had .1 dB output level increments, but other than such devices, I think an analog knob would need to be inserted somewhere in the signal path.

This fundamental problem has made precisely matched hardware comparisons virtually impossible for average Joes, for some time.

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #6 –
Why not do what Meyer and Moran did?

This is really about whether you can transparently digitize and reconstruct source XXX using 44.1/16 as a delivery format, right?

What is the point in re-inventing the wheel when there a perfectly good experiment has already been designed?

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
You don't have to be a golden ear audiophile to hear the noise
If someone said that about mp3, you would hear the shouts of TOS8 half way around the world!

It's quite hard to hear any vinyl noise when the music is playing - assuming that music is typical pop music. Ticks and pops sometimes, but not the noise/rumble. Distortion too, but that's mainly worn records and/or poor turntables and/or near the end of the disc.

Plenty of samples in this thread...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=71960

especially the ones from Cavaille now at...
http://www.mediafire.com/?59m192uz8mq09
...which are excellent. The explanation of how they were done (not particularly good equipment, but an interesting transfer technique) is on this page...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....afire&st=50

Cheers,
David.

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #8 –
I've had similar experiences to those described in the article (but without the food!).

Some of it is due to sighted tests and getting carried away.
Some of it is due to certain vinyl and/or certain vinyl playback systems giving a slightly "larger than life" quality to the reproduction.
Some of it is due to a slight preference for a little noise and/or distortion.
Some of it is due to the CD version being badly or carelessly mastered.

I think most true vinyl fans would be horrified at how flat most master tapes sound.

I still enjoy vinyl though.

I'm not sure "chicks dig vinyl" though Hotsoup - my wife has a very strong opinion about my record collection and it's not that!

Cheers,
David.

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: mzil on
Quote from: krabapple on
Is there a feasible method for  level-matching such a comparison to within 0.2dB?

Even having a scope or meter to monitor the actual levels, using the gear mentioned in that showdown, the answer is "No". He said the level matching was, *ahem*, "a breeze" thanks to the 1dB level changes of the Oppo 105 disc player used, which of course just isn't fine enough to match the fixed level of the phono.



True, but what he meant by 'level  matching' in that article  was 'by ear', so the fineness issue is already moot there ;>


 

how to level match a vinyl vs CD comparison?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: greynol on
Why not do what Meyer and Moran did?

This is really about whether you can transparently digitize and reconstruct source XXX using 44.1/16 as a delivery format, right?

What is the point in re-inventing the wheel when there a perfectly good experiment has already been designed?



Yes, I already stipulated that the 'CD' here would have to be a digitization of the LP (and not, as DeSalla used, a commercial CD version of something that existed on LP).  But even when you digitize the LP, you still are dealing with pre-set digital 'record' and 'play' levels.  So you still have to level match the outputs from the two inputs..like M& M did

Quote
For the CD loop we used a well-regarded professional
CD recorder with real-time monitoring. Levels in both
channels were matched to within 0.1 dB using a very
high-performance adjustable analog gain stage, which was
always in the 16/44.1 signal path..