Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Amp recommendation (Read 20162 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Amp recommendation

Some amplifier advice needed

Hello,

To begin with. I have a stereo setup with a Denon AVR-2308 and a MF V-DACII. the rest is digital (Wavpack).
The speakers I use are B&W 603 s3 speakers.

The AVR is running in PureDirect mode and is connected bi-wired to the speakers.

Now the AVR is having issues at certain moments it does not work correctly, like the radio mode is silent. Which is only fixable with a knock on the AVR unit or when waiting for a long time it heals itself. suddenly (not always) Opening up the AVR and reconnecting everything didn't help.
Also when this happens the remote control signals are ignored. Reset is not fixing it.

I'm thinking about replacing the unit. It is a 7.1 AVR, but I have just 2 speakers and I don't want any surround.

I'm looking for a (2nd hand) integrated amp that is affordable and just plain stereo and (preferably) better than the AVR I am using right now. Are there any recommendations or things to consider when buying an amp?
There is only one thing I really do need and that is a remote control where I can change the volume. For the rest I only need it to be an amplifier, but a good one that is future proof in the way that it can drive larger speakers like B&W 800 series in the future.
I see many amplifiers that have great reviews, but they are like 60 watts. I think my speakers need at least a 100 watt amplifier, or am I totally wrong there?

I'd like to keep under the 1000 euro's if possible. Does something like that exist?

I have been looking at the NAD S300 2n hand, but I really have no idea what to buy. There are so many brands around...
There is always that risk to buy an amp 2n hand without any guarantees.......

Thanks!

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Fairy on
I see many amplifiers that have great reviews, but they are like 60 watts. I think my speakers need at least a 100 watt amplifier, or am I totally wrong there?

You don't need nearly as much power as you think you do. As an example, If the sensitivity rating of your speakers is 90dB/1W@1M, that's ~108dB at normal listening distance (2 meters) from 60 watts. And that would be continuous output, the peak output could be as much as 100 watts or more, which would peak at 110dB at the same distance, way louder than any reasonable person would or should be playing in their home.

Most people barely use 10 watts from their amplifiers, at normal-to-loud listening levels.

Quote from: Fairy on
I'd like to keep under the 1000 euro's if possible. Does something like that exist?

I have been looking at the NAD S300 2n hand, but I really have no idea what to buy. There are so many brands around...
There is always that risk to buy an amp 2n hand without any guarantees.......

For €1000 you could get a very nice amplfier brand new, such as an NAD C356 or C375, which have more power than you will probably ever need. You could even get the C368 "hybrid digital" model, if you want something a little more modern technology-wise.

Or one of Yamaha's very nice stereo amplifiers, with their beautiful brushed aluminium fronts.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #3 –
In your price range you should easily be able to find a receiver with 100W or more.   Integrated amplifiers are "specialty items" and the price can vary all over the place, but a new one would generally cost more than an "equivalent" receiver.   (Professional power amps can easily be found for less than $1 USD per Watt, but that's not what you are looking for.)

As in KozmoNaut's example, the difference between 60W and 100W is 2.2dB.    (A power factor of two is 3dB and a power factor of 4 is 6dB.)

Quote
The speakers I use are B&W 603 s3 speakers.

... but a good one that is future proof in the way that it can drive larger speakers like B&W 800 series in the future.
Both speakers are rated for 90dB at 1M with 2.83V*, so they will play equally loud with the same power.   The larger speaker is rated for higher power so it can go louder with a bigger amp.



*  2.83V into 8-Ohms is 1 Watt.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #6 –
Thanks for the answers.

I'm looking for an amp to love for the next few years so I rather spend a little more on an amp that I really like instead of an amp that.... well.... I don't know how to describe, but with a smaller amp.... It's all so subjective. A more powerful amp gives somewhat more confidence.

I've seen good reviews of the NAD C375BEE, but then on WhatHifi I've read:
Struggles to engage
lacks power, punch and dynamics
hardens at loud volumes

Makes me in doubt again.

Even the Yamaha (expensive) amp's like the A-S2000 are highly rated but others just say it's crap.

Off course I like setups with monoblocks and preamps, but that's way out of my league :)

I love music and I would like to do the least concessions. I don't want fancy stuff like DSP's onboard. Only fancy thing I really love is the Yamaha VU meters but not for that price :) Also the NAD digital input on a daughterboard would be ideal for me, but I don't know if the amp suits me. It's a bit of a guess buying 2nd hand so I would love to hear from people who own NAD devices.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #7 –
HiFi magazines depend on advertising revenue from the manufacturers so no reviews from them can be seen as objective or reliable. All their reviews could be summarised as "not bad, but if you could spend a bit more, you would be really happy". They should be ignored.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #8 –
The reality is that this has absolutely  nothing to do with audible sound quality and everything to do with bling. I don't see how this forum can be of any help to people who are unwilling to shed placebophile tendencies.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #9 –
Another nice Yamaha is the Yamaha R-N402D, which has all the modern stuff, while looking decent in silver. Gapless FLAC and ALAC support and DAB+ is also nice. But costs more.

Here in Norway they turn off all national FM radio stations during 2017 (as first country in the world), leaving only DAB+ and internet radio, so an FM only receiver like the Yamaha-R-S202 is a no-go here.
/Edit: I noticed there is a  R-S202D version (with DAB+) as well. The rest of the receiver lineup is FM only, though.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Fairy on

then on WhatHifi I've read:
Struggles to engage
lacks power, punch and dynamics
hardens at loud volumes

Makes me in doubt again.
Those are classic symptoms of audiophile disorder, a byproduct of Dunning-Kruger. No doubt.
That or they were using the wrong wires.
If you "fret" about that stuff, why are you asking sane people for advice?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Fairy on

then on WhatHifi I've read:
Struggles to engage
lacks power, punch and dynamics
hardens at loud volumes

Makes me in doubt again.
Those are classic symptoms of audiophile disorder, a byproduct of Dunning-Kruger. No doubt.
That or they were using the wrong wires.
If you "fret" about that stuff, why are you asking sane people for advice?


I'm just trying to make the right decision... I'm not a placebophile. I'm trying to get the reviews into perspective and see what amp would be the best choice for me.

I like to have a bit of headroom when it comes to power.
A remote control is a must have.
Only stereo is needed. bi-wiring is a pré
I don't care if it is like a christmas tree or has only one power led.

I quoted the review to see if these arguments have any reasonable meaning or are just biased comments by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. From a hifi review site you should expect they know somewhat about audio don't they?

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Fairy on
I'm not a placebophile. I'm trying to get the reviews into perspective
Maybe you're in denial. Sane people don't put stock in daydream believers fantasies in print.

Quote from: Fairy on
I like to have a bit of headroom when it comes to power.
A remote control is a must have.
Only stereo is needed.
There's going to be a lot of options for <1k euro.
Pick the one with all needed features, that looks best to you.
Yamaha has been mentioned. They know a thing or two about music/amplification after nearly 130 years.

Quote from: Fairy on
bi-wiring is a pré
It's placebophile nonsense. What did you claim to be?

Quote from: Fairy on
From a hifi review site you should expect they know somewhat about audio don't they?
No.

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #13 –
Quote from: ajinfla on

Quote from: Fairy on
bi-wiring is a pré
It's placebophile nonsense. What did you claim to be?

That's a thing I wanted to play with. Mijn current AVR does support bi-wiring and it is connected that way.
Why does B&W provide bi-wiring to most of their speakers?

Just a question, what kind of amp do you (in general) use as the main living room stereo setup?

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Fairy on
That's a thing I wanted to play with.
Not a good sign.

Quote from: Fairy on
Mijn current AVR does support bi-wiring and it is connected that way.
You've confused buywiring with bi-amping.
Anything with a terminal can be buywired. Or triwired. Or quad wired, etc.

Quote from: Fairy on
Why does B&W provide bi-wiring to most of their speakers?
Those are for bi-amping, though I'm sure they know audiophiles will use them for nonsense like buywiring.

Quote from: Fairy on
Just a question, what kind of amp do you (in general) use as the main living room stereo setup?
I don't, my stereo speakers are active. For HT I use a Yamaha AVR.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Fairy on
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Fairy on

then on WhatHifi I've read:
Struggles to engage
lacks power, punch and dynamics
hardens at loud volumes

Sounds like placebophile bilge - which is what you will find for sure on just about any audiophile forum or in a published review.

When you are reading a subjective review, ask yourself how does their review procedure compare to the  FAQ's on HA about DBTs?

This is a trick question, because in almost every case you will find that the review you are checking misses just about every kind of control that a subjective test requires. 

In short the required controls are:

(1) Level matching. Give me two mismatched amps which is all that anybody listenes to these days in reviews, and I will ace a blind listening test. Yup, I'm 70 and had further hearing losses due to chemotherapy.  The audible differences that are built into their listening test are generally that audible to me if I recreate them.

(2) Time synching the music so that the listening sessions are all based on the same music. Almost none are.  Again, does it have to be a news flash that different music sounds different? Apparently, so.

(3) Concealment of the true identity of the product being listened to during the test.  It's OK to know what you are listening until you start the formal comparison.

Quote
Makes me in doubt again.

Those are classic symptoms of audiophile disorder, a byproduct of Dunning-Kruger. No doubt.

Agreed.

Quote
That or they were using the wrong wires.


Generally not a problem.  When in doubt use 12 gauge pure copper stranded low voltage wire (CL2 or CL3). That stuff actually costs a little bit more! ;-)

Quote
If you "fret" about that stuff, why are you asking sane people for advice?

I'm just trying to make the right decision... I'm not a placebophile. I'm trying to get the reviews into perspective and see what amp would be the best choice for me.

Reading and believing placebophile reviews is just as harmful as being a placebophile.

Quote
I like to have a bit of headroom when it comes to power.
A remote control is a must have.
Only stereo is needed. bi-wiring is a pré
I don't care if it is like a christmas tree or has only one power led.

I quoted the review to see if these arguments have any reasonable meaning or are just biased comments by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. From a hifi review site you should expect they know somewhat about audio don't they?

I think the discussion points by AJ and I pretty well debunk the usual suspects.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Fairy on
Quote from: ajinfla on

Quote from: Fairy on
bi-wiring is a pré
It's placebophile nonsense. What did you claim to be?

That's a thing I wanted to play with.

That presumes that you will do proper listening tests, right.

Quote
My current AVR does support bi-wiring and it is connected that way.

Sorry to hear that the placebophile hook is already set

Unfortuantely it appears that B&W are co-conspirators:

B&W Offical user manual from their web site

"There are 2 linked pairs of terminals on the back of the
speaker. For conventional connection (above left), the
terminal links should remain in place (as delivered) and
just one pair of terminals connected to the amplifier. For
bi-wire connection (above right), the terminal links should
be removed and each pair of terminals connected to the
amplifier independently. Bi-wiring can improve the resolution
of low-level detail


Quote
Why does B&W provide bi-wiring to most of their speakers?

They are pandering to the placebophiles that they feel makes up a lot of their market. Sad.  Engineering analysis, lab measurements and reliable listening tests show that the widely-hyped benefits of biwriring are placebophile blather as long as the speaker cables meet minimal standards, which I gave an overkill version of in another post.


Quote
Just a question, what kind of amp do you (in general) use as the main living room stereo setup?

A mid-line Denon AVR that drives the balanced line level inputs of powered speakers.  It actually is loaded by relatively small resistors with many times the resistance (and therefore only a tiny fraction of the load) of regular speakers.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Fairy on
I've seen good reviews of the NAD C375BEE, but then on WhatHifi I've read:
Struggles to engage
lacks power, punch and dynamics
hardens at loud volumes

Makes me in doubt again.
Why? How could a sane person take these guys serious?

whathifi.com is full with audiophile nonsense.

Source
Quote
Helps tie instruments together
Aids dynamics and musicality
Source
Quote
Warm, engaging and open presentation

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Fairy on
A more powerful amp gives somewhat more confidence.

Quote from: Fairy on
I've seen good reviews of the NAD C375BEE, but then on WhatHifi I've read:
Struggles to engage
lacks power, punch and dynamics
hardens at loud volumes

Quote from: Fairy on
Even the Yamaha (expensive) amp's like the A-S2000 are highly rated but others just say it's crap.

Quote from: Fairy on
Off [sic] course I like setups with monoblocks and preamps

Quote from: Fairy on
NAD digital input on a daughterboard would be ideal for me

Quote from: Fairy on
I like to have a bit of headroom when it comes to power.

Quote from: Fairy on
Only stereo is needed. bi-wiring is a pré

Quote from: Fairy on
From a hifi review site you should expect they know somewhat about audio don't they?

Quote from: CiTay on
-> 8.

Hydrogenaudio is supposed to be an objectively minded community that relies on double-blind testing and relevant methods of comparison in discussion about sound quality. The usual "audiophile" speak of non-audio related terms which are completely subjective and open to redefinition on a whim, are useless for any sort of progression in discussion.

This rule is the very core of Hydrogenaudio, so it is very important that you follow it.

Here is a discussion explaining why
Subjective vs Objective opinions

You can read how to easily perform double blind listening tests here :
What is a blind ABX test ?

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #20 –
Try putting your existing amplifier (when it's behaving itself) up against one of these in a properly controlled DBT at sensible listening levels before assuming that spending a fortune is obligatory.

Ignore all subjective reviews as they are all completely meaningless.

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Slipstreem on
Try putting your existing amplifier (when it's behaving itself) up against one of these in a properly controlled DBT at sensible listening levels before assuming that spending a fortune is obligatory.

Ignore all subjective reviews as they are all completely meaningless.

I've got one and it sound great !
But i've got a hissing issue when the main pot is above 12h00 with switching PSUs... the PSU choice is critical.

But now, you also have this one with a Texas Instruments chip :
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/Breeze-Audio-HIFI-2-0-stereophonic-digital-power-amplifier-TPA-3116-High-price-material-version-50WX2/32771154570.html?spm=2114.06010108.8.5.mJ5H8B

And it have the beautiful thick aluminium enclosure for 20$

Re: Amp recommendation

Reply #24 –
Why is it a "hidden" link? The color is different, and there is a faint underline. Hell, quoting the post even makes the BBcode visible in the reply editor.