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Topic: Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test (Read 29430 times) previous topic - next topic
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Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

I thought it may be a good idea to devote a topic to this.


Suggestion:

If people can post their bitrates like this (in addition to their analysis)

{bitrate1, bitrate2, ... , bitraten}

I may combine all the bitrates easily and make a combined analysis which will be more accurate.


Edit: Added suggestion

Edit 2: If the ones who have created excel sheets for bitrates, it would be great to have access to the files.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #1 –
I will be using these samples in all my bitrate tests.

Code: [Select]
bol	Silver Sun	1	120
bol	Silver Sun	2	111
bol	Silver Sun	3	122
bol	Silver Sun	4	119
bol	Silver Sun	5	134
bol	Silver Sun	6	126
bol	Silver Sun	7	116
bol	Silver Sun	8	118
bol	Silver Sun	9	108
Dream Theater	Images and Words	1	129
Dream Theater	Images and Words	2	132
Dream Theater	Images and Words	3	130
Dream Theater	Images and Words	4	127
Dream Theater	Images and Words	5	133
Dream Theater	Images and Words	6	131
Dream Theater	Images and Words	7	117
Dream Theater	Images and Words	8	132
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	1	130
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	2	133
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	3	130
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	4	119
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	5	129
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	6	133
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	7	125
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	8	133
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	9	134
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	10	130
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	11	132
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	12	126
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	1	114
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	2	122
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	3	120
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	4	117
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	5	119
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	6	116
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	7	120
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	8	117
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	9	115
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	10	118
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	11	120
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	12	113
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	13	122
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	14	119
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	15	116
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	16	118
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	17	118
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	18	117
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	1	126
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	2	115
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	3	122
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	4	113
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	5	120
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	6	115
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	7	123
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	8	112
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	9	118
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	10	108
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	11	112
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	12	126
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	13	117
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	14	116
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	15	117
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	16	127
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	17	123
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	18	124
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	19	121
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	1	118
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	2	118
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	3	126
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	4	125
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	5	115
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	6	128
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	7	121
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	8	114
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	9	116
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	10	121
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	11	130
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	12	130
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	13	122
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	14	116
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	15	120
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	16	117
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	17	116
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	18	113
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	19	117
Schtimm	Featuring...	1	107
Schtimm	Featuring...	2	117
Schtimm	Featuring...	3	123
Schtimm	Featuring...	4	113
Schtimm	Featuring...	5	132
Schtimm	Featuring...	6	114
Schtimm	Featuring...	7	93
Schtimm	Featuring...	8	120
Schtimm	Featuring...	9	118
Schtimm	Featuring...	10	126
Schtimm	Featuring...	11	140
Schtimm	Featuring...	12	120
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	1	120
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	2	119
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	3	109
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	4	136
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	5	125
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	6	120
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	7	145
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	8	126
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	9	125
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	10	122
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	11	123
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	1	120
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	2	125
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	3	128
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	4	134
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	5	138
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	6	128
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	7	138
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	8	116
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	9	128
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	10	124
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	1	133
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	2	145
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	3	125
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	4	136
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	5	132
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	6	106
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	7	97
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	8	124
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	9	138
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	10	129
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	11	120
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	12	145
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	13	125
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	14	117
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	15	143
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	16	121
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	17	141
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	1	137
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	2	97
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	3	119
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	4	127
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	5	111
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	6	133
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	7	125
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	8	101
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	9	119
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	10	122
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	11	111
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	12	89
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	13	90
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	14	75
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	15	79
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	16	134
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	17	128
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	18	121
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	19	86
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	20	95
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	21	119
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	22	110
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	23	109



bitrates

{120, 111, 122, 119, 134, 126, 116, 118, 108, 129, 132, 130, 127, 133, 131, 117, 132, 130, 133, 130, 119, 129, 133, 125, 133, 134, 130, 132, 126, 114, 122, 120, 117, 119, 116, 120, 117, 115, 118, 120, 113, 122, 119, 116, 118, 118, 117, 126, 115, 122, 113, 120, 115, 123, 112, 118, 108, 112, 126, 117, 116, 117, 127, 123, 124, 121, 118, 118, 126, 125, 115, 128, 121, 114, 116, 121, 130, 130, 122, 116, 120, 117, 116, 113, 117, 107, 117, 123, 113, 132, 114, 93, 120, 118, 126, 140, 120, 120, 119, 109, 136, 125, 120, 145, 126, 125, 122, 123, 120, 125, 128, 134, 138, 128, 138, 116, 128, 124, 133, 145, 125, 136, 132, 106, 97, 124, 138, 129, 120, 145, 125, 117, 143, 121, 141, 137, 97, 119, 127, 111, 133, 125, 101, 119, 122, 111, 89, 90, 75, 79, 134, 128, 121, 86, 95, 119, 110, 109}



bol - Silver Sun: Experimental Jazz
Dream Theater: Progressive rock/metal
Schtimm: Jazz with some rock elements ans some balads
LotR soundtrack: classical
That's Jazz: Jazz

Results for Vorbis q 4:

Mean: 120.9 kbps
Median 120.5 kbps
Standard Deviation: 11.5 kbps
Sample Range: 70 kbps
Mean Deviation: 8.2 kbps
Quartile Deviation: 6.0 kbps

Quartiles: 1:116.0, 2: 120.5, 3: 128.0

Student-t 0.95 confidence interval [119.1, 122.7]
Student-t 0.99 confidence interval [118.5, 123.3]

Student-t two-sided hypothesis test vs. 128 kbps:
P-value: 1.30*10^(-12)


Preliminary conclusion: q 4 is not appropriate.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #2 –
[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT WMA VBR BITRATE[/span][/b]

I'm currently encoding different tracks, and it reminds me issues I've noticed during my summer listening tests. WMA bitrate is often wrong.
- foobar2000 0.8 component was never trustable. With VBR, results are amazingly distorted
- MrQuestionMan 0.71 (I downloaded the latest release from the server last hour) is much better, but sometimes wrong. I discovered something new: the estimated bitrate never goes below 88 kbps and never beyond 176 kbps (exactly the double: coïncidence?)

The full table of complete tracks (I haven't reported all value for MrQM, because I have to do it by hand - but I've uploaded the html files generated by the app.)

Code: [Select]
TRACK	LENGTH		SIZE		BITRATE	BITRATE	BITRATE
			WMA 50		hand	fb2k	MQM0.71

A01...	178 sec.	3328447		149,6	184	147
A02...	347 sec.	6400283		147,6	161	146
A03...	417 sec.	11802033	226,4	250	175
A04...	250 sec.	5699455		182,4	185	175
A05...	155 sec.	1940941		100,2	149	99
E01...	1130 sec.	11364861	80,5	186	88
E02...	406 sec.	7154839		141,0	181	139
E03...	41 sec.		826969		161,4	158	158
E04...	850 sec.	10838415	102,0	194	101
E05...	314 sec.	6000541		152,9	180	151
E06...	700 sec.	11798675	134,8	163	133
E07...	664 sec.	8071831		97,3	122	96
E08...	590 sec.	9719365		131,8	147	130
E09...	374 sec.	6333041		135,5	159	134
E10...	350 sec.	6552955		149,8	160	148
E11...	1244 sec.	28247721	181,7	233	176
E12...	775 sec.	11143431	115,0	156	
E13...	408 sec.	7523027		147,5	174	
E14...	493 sec.	8578517		139,2	174	
E15...	69 sec.		1141381		132,3	134	
E16...	86 sec.		1725145		160,5	166	
E17...	222 sec.	4742973		170,9	191	
E18...	141 sec.	2547035		144,5	158	
E19...	2014 sec.	27563831	109,5	174	
E20...	146 sec.	1159649		63,5	76	88	
E21...	630 sec.	9948515		126,3	176	
E22...	747 sec.	15696179	168,1	178	
E23...	385 sec.	5942451		123,5	150	
E24...	444 sec.	5911261		106,5	152	
E25...	464 sec.	9269857		159,8	180
E26...	156 sec.	2874869		147,4	165
E27...	212 sec.	3454303		130,4	160	128
E28...	507 sec.	11474623	181,1	191	175
E29...	391 sec.	6023299		123,2	174	122
E30...	703 sec.	14465747	164,6	189
E31...	157 sec.	2982629		152,0	160
E32...	181 sec.	2740269		121,1	145
E33...	195 sec.	3328515		136,6	148
E34...	161 sec.	2789579		138,6	150
E35...	162 sec.	2668353		131,8	138
E36...	189 sec.	3472171		147,0	163
E37...	286 sec.	4074219		114,0	129
E38...	635 sec.	10842041	136,6	161
E39...	311 sec.	5466219		140,6	169
E40...	827 sec.	13581713	131,4	155
E41...	237 sec.	3288269		111,0	131
E42...	124 sec.	1604067		103,5	124
E43...	328 sec.	5856917		142,9	169
E44...	174 sec.	2699831		124,1	140
E45...	220 sec.	3827005		139,2	139
E46...	185 sec.	3490115		150,9	172
E47...	29 sec.		579971		160,0	161
E48...	333 sec.	5515697		132,5	157
E49...	69 sec.		1473637		170,9	173
E50...	44 sec.		930251		169,1	172
E51...	328 sec.	6611233		161,2	165
E52...	88 sec.		1671277		151,9	157
E53...	286 sec.	5982465		167,3	176
E54...	138 sec.	2955613		171,3	178
E55...	206 sec.	3970629		154,2	158
E56...	1163 sec.	24417423	168,0	184
E57...	100 sec.	2147261		171,8	181
E58...	71 sec.		1451195		163,5	163
E59...	175 sec.	3090461		141,3	145
E60...	157 sec.	3301423		168,2	177
S01...	273 sec.	4249273		124,5	137
S02...	681 sec.	11861459	139,3	184
S03...	1770 sec.	26525665	119,9	175
S04...	277 sec.	4621963		133,5	148
S05...	353 sec.	6957063		157,7	187
S06...	440 sec.	5318565		96,7	137
S07...	240 sec.	4002195		133,4	159
S08...	237 sec.	4347909		146,8	169
S09...	298 sec.	4150597		111,4	159
S10...	105 sec.	1734201		132,1	158
S11...	133 sec.	1815137		109,2	114
S12...	189 sec.	2816631		119,2	123
S13...	100 sec.	1635401		130,8	133
S14...	211 sec.	3844929		145,8	149
S15...	150 sec.	2713205		144,7	165
S16...	165 sec.	1985885		96,3	102
S17...	288 sec.	6220447		172,8	183
S18...	125 sec.	2048585		131,1	140
S19...	481 sec.	6903699		114,8	160
S20...	264 sec.	4648847		140,9	154
S21...	229 sec.	4522987		158,0	164
S22...	531 sec.	7887205		118,8	146
S23...	508 sec.	9503517		149,7	176
S24...	22 sec.		324009		117,8	123
S25...	546 sec.	7810939		114,4	144
S26...	615 sec.	6711161		87,3	138
S27...	1842 sec.	20091779	87,3	151
S28...	106 sec.	1204389		90,9	98
S29...	440 sec.	5673275		103,2	137	
S30...	823 sec.	7668367		74,5	175	88
S31...	823 sec.	7668367		74,5	175	88
S32...	214 sec.	3041231		113,7	156	
S33...	312 sec.	5430299		139,2	166	
S34...	470 sec.	6800385		115,8	146	
S35...	952 sec.	13496903	113,4	159	
S36...	275 sec.	5079935		147,8	156	
S37...	140 sec.	2600915		148,6	164	
S38...	229 sec.	5151591		180,0	185	
S39...	185 sec.	2915395		126,1	136	
S40...	32 sec.		835913		209,0	204	175
S41...	163 sec.	3085923		151,5	179	
S42...	533 sec.	8587653		128,9	151	
S43...	196 sec.	4163659		169,9	170	
S44...	87 sec.		1110023		102,1	114	
S45...	129 sec.	1393057		86,4	133
S46...	373 sec.	4716637		101,2	185
S47...	594 sec.	8659737		116,6	184
S48...	612 sec.	10383973	135,7	175
S49...	547 sec.	8053399		117,8	154
S50...	244 sec.	3723827		122,1	136
S51...	208 sec.	4513927		173,6	179
S52...	152 sec.	2717699		143,0	161
S53...	859 sec.	8422827		78,4	144	88
S54...	427 sec.	4164579		78,0	127	88
S55...	843 sec.	8234183		78,1	133	88
V01...	422 sec.	8142699		154,4	173
V02...	290 sec.	6431481		177,4	188
V03...	423 sec.	2934307		55,5	72
V04...	218 sec.	4891127		179,5	193
V05...	313 sec.	6225037		159,1	184
V06...	160 sec.	3736965		186,8	187
V07...	705 sec.	15435595	175,2	185
V08...	2073 sec.	25323553	97,7	219
V09...	168 sec.	3328403		158,5	162
V10...	284 sec.	5546931		156,3	171
V11...	1124 sec.	20573831	146,4	180
V12...	204 sec.	3530601		138,5	145
V13...	342 sec.	6876199		160,8	188
V14...	417 sec.	8928433		171,3	176
V15...	86 sec.		1401869		130,4	140
V16...	376 sec.	6130995		130,4	151
V17...	21 sec.		265639		101,2	118
V18...	612 sec.	11915063	155,8	174
V19...	570 sec.	12287561	172,5	179
V20...	353 sec.	6669707		151,2	184
V21...	79 sec.		1352447		137,0	171
V22...	215 sec.	4042505		150,4	171	
V23...	657 sec.	9984543		121,6	149	
V24...	430 sec.	8533365		158,8	177	
V25...	218 sec.	4693567		172,2	171	
V26...	233 sec.	3804607		130,6	147	
V27...	106 sec.	2290969		172,9	170	
V28...	92 sec.		1644349		143,0	164	
V29...	200 sec.	4410625		176,4	178	
V30...	326 sec.	5870379		144,1	151	

MEAN					137,2	161,0	129
					perso	fb2k	MQM
=> foobar2000 "copy command" can't be used (difference= +24 kbps!)
=> the average bitrate I computed (137,2) is a simple mean of the 150 values; MrQM compute the bitrate differently and it takes the length into consideration [I avoid this, it distorts the representativity of the gallery; see for more information about how the gallery was builded].


The bitrate corresponds to WMA 9.1 [Std] VBR 50 mode.
1 Kb = 1000 bits

- MrQuestionMan html table - alphabetical
- MrQuestionMan html table - sorted by bitrate

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #3 –
Ok... I made estimates for lame 3.97b1 with -V 5 --vbr-new

Code: [Select]
bol	Silver Sun	1	120	119
bol	Silver Sun	2	111	110
bol	Silver Sun	3	122	125
bol	Silver Sun	4	119	133
bol	Silver Sun	5	134	146
bol	Silver Sun	6	126	126
bol	Silver Sun	7	116	119
bol	Silver Sun	8	118	128
bol	Silver Sun	9	108	102
Dream Theater	Images and Words	1	129	142
Dream Theater	Images and Words	2	132	144
Dream Theater	Images and Words	3	130	140
Dream Theater	Images and Words	4	127	139
Dream Theater	Images and Words	5	133	134
Dream Theater	Images and Words	6	131	138
Dream Theater	Images and Words	7	117	130
Dream Theater	Images and Words	8	132	139
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	1	130	120
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	2	133	144
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	3	130	137
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	4	119	110
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	5	129	139
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	6	133	145
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	7	125	136
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	8	133	146
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	9	134	148
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	10	130	144
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	11	132	140
Dream Theater	Scenes from a Memory	12	126	140
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	1	114	133
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	2	122	122
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	3	120	132
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	4	117	139
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	5	119	139
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	6	116	136
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	7	120	143
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	8	117	132
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	9	115	140
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	10	118	130
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	11	120	133
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	12	113	137
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	13	122	147
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	14	119	136
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	15	116	131
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	16	118	136
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	17	118	131
Howard Shore	Fellowship of the Ring	18	117	123
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	1	126	142
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	2	115	115
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	3	122	137
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	4	113	126
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	5	120	140
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	6	115	123
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	7	123	134
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	8	112	123
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	9	118	137
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	10	108	129
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	11	112	121
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	12	126	144
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	13	117	124
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	14	116	120
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	15	117	138
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	16	127	150
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	17	123	146
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	18	124	133
Howard Shore	The Two Towers	19	121	133
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	1	118	126
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	2	118	122
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	3	126	141
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	4	125	141
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	5	115	122
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	6	128	145
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	7	121	129
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	8	114	121
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	9	116	119
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	10	121	136
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	11	130	143
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	12	130	142
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	13	122	133
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	14	116	123
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	15	120	134
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	16	117	142
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	17	116	121
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	18	113	121
Howard Shore	The Return of the King	19	117	111
Schtimm	Featuring...	1	107	102
Schtimm	Featuring...	2	117	117
Schtimm	Featuring...	3	123	133
Schtimm	Featuring...	4	113	107
Schtimm	Featuring...	5	132	134
Schtimm	Featuring...	6	114	126
Schtimm	Featuring...	7	93	97
Schtimm	Featuring...	8	120	140
Schtimm	Featuring...	9	118	120
Schtimm	Featuring...	10	126	138
Schtimm	Featuring...	11	140	144
Schtimm	Featuring...	12	120	127
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	1	120	132
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	2	119	121
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	3	109	120
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	4	136	150
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	5	125	142
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	6	120	161
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	7	145	139
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	8	126	147
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	9	125	134
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	10	122	132
Schtimm	plays Mrakoslav Vragosh	11	123	130
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	1	120	134
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	2	125	151
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	3	128	133
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	4	134	148
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	5	138	159
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	6	128	126
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	7	138	142
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	8	116	131
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	9	128	149
Schtimm	The Alcoholovefi Collection	10	124	145
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	1	133	150
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	2	145	153
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	3	125	155
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	4	136	147
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	5	132	153
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	6	106	136
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	7	97	86
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	8	124	128
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	9	138	142
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	10	129	134
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	11	120	126
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	12	145	148
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	13	125	147
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	14	117	151
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	15	143	161
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	16	121	118
VA	That's Jazz CD 1	17	141	158
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	1	137	151
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	2	97	85
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	3	119	141
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	4	127	155
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	5	111	137
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	6	133	150
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	7	125	154
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	8	101	86
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	9	119	126
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	10	122	152
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	11	111	125
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	12	89	76
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	13	90	85
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	14	75	80
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	15	79	65
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	16	134	149
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	17	128	136
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	18	121	136
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	19	86	81
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	20	95	84
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	21	119	139
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	22	110	129
VA	That's Jazz CD 2	23	109	109

bitrates

{119, 110, 125, 133, 146, 126, 119, 128, 102, 142, 144, 140, 139, 134, 138, 130, 139, 120, 144, 137, 110, 139, 145, 136, 146, 148, 144, 140, 140, 133, 122, 132, 139, 139, 136, 143, 132, 140, 130, 133, 137, 147, 136, 131, 136, 131, 123, 142, 115, 137, 126, 140, 123, 134, 123, 137, 129, 121, 144, 124, 120, 138, 150, 146, 133, 133, 126, 122, 141, 141, 122, 145, 129, 121, 119, 136, 143, 142, 133, 123, 134, 142, 121, 121, 111, 102, 117, 133, 107, 134, 126, 97, 140, 120, 138, 144, 127, 132, 121, 120, 150, 142, 161, 139, 147, 134, 132, 130, 134, 151, 133, 148, 159, 126, 142, 131, 149, 145, 150, 153, 155, 147, 153, 136, 86, 128, 142, 134, 126, 148, 147, 151, 161, 118, 158, 151, 85, 141, 155, 137, 150, 154, 86, 126, 152, 125, 76, 85, 80, 65, 149, 136, 136, 81, 84, 139, 129, 109}

Analysis:

Track by track analysis:

Mean: 131.7 kbps
Median: 134 kbps
Quartiles: 1: 124, 2: 134, 3: 142
Range: 96 kbps (!!)
Standard Deviation: 17.4 kbps
Mean Deviation: 12.6 kbps
Quartile Deviation: 9 kbps

Student-t 0.95 confidence interval [128.9, 134.4]

Student-t 0.99 confidence interval [128.1, 135.3]

Student-t two-sided hypothesis test vs. 128 kbps:
P-value: 0.00879



Conclusion: More samples are needed (imo) to conclude this, but it's as close as we can come anyhow.


Edit: THe latter of the two bitrates are the lame bitrates.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #4 –
I am going to do a similar analysis with gurubolez' data for WMA.

(On a side note, how do you configure foobar2k for WMA, gurubolez?)

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #5 –
Quote
WMA bitrate is often wrong.

I, too, have noticed this...Dbpoweramp's tooltip is incorrect, as is Foobar 0.83 and the latest Winamp.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #6 –
Quote
On a side note, how do you configure foobar2k for WMA, gurubolez?)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm using [a href="http://www.vuplayer.com/]VU Player[/url] to encode my WavPack tracks into WMA VBR. So I can't answer.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote
WMA bitrate is often wrong.

I, too, have noticed this...Dbpoweramp's tooltip is incorrect, as is Foobar 0.83 and the latest Winamp.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343551"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is a common problem of the crappy WMA implementation, where it reports the "Maximum Bitrate" value from the header instead of the actuall average bitrate.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #8 –
Yea, I'd be first in line to blame Microsoft on that, when all the other formats get it right.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #9 –
I believe some kind of tolerance level need to be selected:

Something like [124, 132] is accepted, and the confidence intervals need to have a nonempty intersection with the chosen interval to be appropriate.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #10 –
I don't think that 128 kbps will the targeted bitrate. iTunes AAC and LAME -V5 are both encoding at ~133...135 kbps, and the current Nero encoder also go beyond 128 kbps. Something like [128...138] is more likely I'd say.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #11 –
I agree, and if that is the targeted bitrate, your test is appropriately an extensive pre-test. However, Sebastian Mares should be the arbitrer.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #12 –
We will probably use ABR. We'll have an improved encoder ready for the test, but it's not ready for pure VBR yet.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #13 –
Stats for gurubolez' data for WMA 50

{55.5, 63.5, 74.5, 74.5, 78., 78.1, 78.4, 80.5, 86.4, 87.3, 87.3, 90.9, 96.3, 96.7, 97.3, 97.7, 100.2, 101.2, 101.2, 102., 102.1, 103.2, 103.5, 106.5, 109.2, 109.5, 111., 111.4, 113.4, 113.7, 114., 114.4, 114.8, 115., 115.8, 116.6, 117.8, 117.8, 118.8, 119.2, 119.9, 121.1, 121.6, 122.1, 123.2, 123.5, 124.1, 124.5, 126.1, 126.3, 128.9, 130.4, 130.4, 130.4, 130.6, 130.8, 131.1, 131.4, 131.8, 131.8, 132.1, 132.3, 132.5, 133.4, 133.5, 134.8, 135.5, 135.7, 136.6, 136.6, 137., 138.5, 138.6, 139.2, 139.2, 139.2, 139.3, 140.6, 140.9, 141., 141.3, 142.9, 143., 143., 144.1, 144.5, 144.7, 145.8, 146.4, 146.8, 147., 147.4, 147.5, 147.6, 147.8, 148.6, 149.6, 149.7, 149.8, 150.4, 150.9, 151.2, 151.5, 151.9, 152., 152.9, 154.2, 154.4, 155.8, 156.3, 157.7, 158., 158.5, 158.8, 159.1, 159.8, 160., 160.5, 160.8, 161.2, 161.4, 163.5, 164.6, 167.3, 168., 168.1, 168.2, 169.1, 169.9, 170.9, 170.9, 171.3, 171.3, 171.8, 172.2, 172.5, 172.8, 172.9, 173.6, 175.2, 176.4, 177.4, 179.5, 180., 181.1, 181.7, 182.4, 186.8, 209., 226.4}


Mean: 137.2
Median: 139.2
Standard Deviation: 29.5
Range: 170.9
Mean Deviation: 23.3
Quartile Deviation: 20.4

Quartiles: 1: 117.8, 2: 139.2, 3: 158.5

0.95 Confidence Interval
[132.5, 142.0]

0.99 Confidence Interval
[130.9, 143.5]

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #14 –
Quote
We will probably use ABR. We'll have an improved encoder ready for the test, but it's not ready for pure VBR yet.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343641"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I suppose there is no point testing bitrates for an ABR option?

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #15 –
Estimate -q 4,25 Vorbis aoTuVb4.51`

Note: I had to drop The Two Towers album, because for some reason my cue-sheet was deleted, and I only have access to my laptop here

{106, 126, 132, 139, 127, 131, 127, 134, 135, 126, 117, 128, 125, 141, 132, 122, 124, 113, 94, 141, 126, 140, 148, 136, 139, 137, 133, 140, 138, 123, 139, 137, 140, 137, 124, 136, 140, 131, 140, 142, 136, 138, 133, 78, 100, 100, 86, 131, 124, 120, 124, 126, 119, 128, 125, 122, 124, 124, 123, 128, 126, 123, 126, 123, 127, 123, 121, 125, 127, 136, 137, 128, 122, 126, 124, 122, 120, 122, 124, 132, 132, 121, 135, 128, 120, 123, 154, 117, 144, 130, 125, 116, 136, 126, 93, 145, 116, 111, 102, 151, 89, 112, 133, 147, 126, 123, 128, 118, 138, 120, 101, 126, 123, 126, 128, 130, 125, 114, 144, 131, 127, 153, 133, 131, 127, 130, 132, 135, 141, 146, 133, 145, 122, 135, 153, 143, 114, 128, 140}


Mean: 127.5
Median: 127.0
Quartiles: 1: 123.0, 2: 127.0, 3: 136.0
Standard Deviation: 12.8
Range: 76
Mean Deviation: 9.12

0.95 Confidence Interval
[125.4, 129.7]

0.99 Confidence Interval
[124.7, 130.4]


If the test is to be made in the range [130, 138], I would suggest upping the -q switch a wee bit more.


I will do one more Vorbis estimate.



Can someone provide iTunes AAC data?

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #16 –
Here's my bitrate table. It contains 150 classical tracks - and only classical. The musical content is not representative of the upcoming testing material and is just a small part of it.
- aoTuV bitrate correspond to beta 4 (which shouldn't have changed with 4.51 at this bitrate).
- I also add aoTuV -q4,25 and LAME --athaa-sensitivity as bonus.
- the bitrate correspond to the real bitrate, not only the audio stream (i.e. the container may slightly increase the value); there are no tags in the file.

http://foobar2000.net/divers/temp/128_bitrate_classical.xls

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #17 –
Quote
I will be using these samples in all my bitrate tests.
...
bitrates

{120, 111, 122, 119, 134, 126, 116, 118, 108, 129, 132, 130, 127, 133, 131, 117, 132, 130, 133, 130, 119, 129, 133, 125, 133, 134, 130, 132, 126, 114, 122, 120, 117, 119, 116, 120, 117, 115, 118, 120, 113, 122, 119, 116, 118, 118, 117, 126, 115, 122, 113, 120, 115, 123, 112, 118, 108, 112, 126, 117, 116, 117, 127, 123, 124, 121, 118, 118, 126, 125, 115, 128, 121, 114, 116, 121, 130, 130, 122, 116, 120, 117, 116, 113, 117, 107, 117, 123, 113, 132, 114, 93, 120, 118, 126, 140, 120, 120, 119, 109, 136, 125, 120, 145, 126, 125, 122, 123, 120, 125, 128, 134, 138, 128, 138, 116, 128, 124, 133, 145, 125, 136, 132, 106, 97, 124, 138, 129, 120, 145, 125, 117, 143, 121, 141, 137, 97, 119, 127, 111, 133, 125, 101, 119, 122, 111, 89, 90, 75, 79, 134, 128, 121, 86, 95, 119, 110, 109}
...
Preliminary conclusion: q 4 is not appropriate.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=343486"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Here is a histogram of this data:

[attachment=1814:attachment]

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #18 –
Making histograms in Excel:

Select Tools -> Add-Ins...
Check Analysis ToolPak

A Data Analysis... entry will be added to the Tools dropdown menu.

Select Data Analysis->Histogram

Create the bins:
It's easier if you sort the data first from lowest to highest.
Select the data, go to Data->Sort and do an ascending sort.
Look at the lowest and highest data, then create a column of bins which cover the lowest and highest data.  A reasonable number of bins would be something like 15 to 20, depending on the amount of data you have.

Select the input range of your data

Select the input range of your bins

Click on your spreadsheet where you want the chart to go and select your output range

Check the Chart Output box.

Create your histogram.
 

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #19 –
Here is another of Vorbis aoTuVb4 q4.25 using Guru's classical music data:

NoXFeR's data is interesting because it has a large tail on the left.  Guru's data has a large tail on the right.

I think what it means is that music selection is making a big difference in the data.

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #20 –
Thanks for the histograms.
I made on my side curves to illustrate the distribution:

http://foobar2000.net/divers/temp/bitratecurve.png

WMA is going very low and very high. LAME also goes very low (and very often too).

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #22 –
I think the "maximum bitrate" (as some call it) that is stored in WMA VBR is intentional and supposed to be used to assist in determining when files need to be transcoded to lower bitrates.  Some cheesy WMA capable portables can't usually exceed 160 Kbps WMA without stuttering, for example.  (Microsoft set the bar pretty low.)  But who knows...

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #23 –
Ok, I updated the web link above, which makes it really easy for anybody to make
histograms.  As an example, I took Guru's wma50 data which NoxFeR printed out,
and pasted them into the applet at:

http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/activities/histogram/

The result is the attached gif

Bitrate estimates for the upcoming 128 kbps test

Reply #24 –
Advice to all members: if you're ill and under antibiotics, don't try to build a bitrate table or be VERY CAREFUL.

I know why I was so surprised to see WMA close to ~130 kbps with VBR 50: I used VBR 75 
I initially planed to test both VBR 50 and VBR 75, and when I computed the bitrate of what I tested first (137 kbps), I didn't see any reason to test a higher setting. But what I've just noticed is that I started to test VBR 75 and not VBR 50  137 kbps is the average bitrate of VBR 75, not VBR 50 (and classical music).
I'm currently running WMA at VBR 50, but the bitrate will probably fall below 100 kbps. It will surely confirm what I noticed this summer with my 80 and 96 kbps: there's a serious bitrate disparity between classical and "non-classical" music, which is making listening tests a bit harder to set