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Topic: How much does gear differ really? (Read 5621 times) previous topic - next topic
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How much does gear differ really?

Hi there,

Some of you could know me from Head-fi (ruben123), where I found it got "too hot under my feet" as they say it here. Discussing science is for the devil.

So now Ive come at a place where I could be sure to get an answer to my liking, I can ask the same question again, though a little different.

How much does gear differ from each other? This excludes the speakers/headphones. It is totally about DAPs, amps, CD players etc etc

Take audiophile DAPs. I believed most differences heard by audiophiles came from sighted tests or impedance mismatches, but then I saw a frequency response graphic from such a player that looked like a wave, instead of almost flat from 20-20k. So there could be actual differences heard. How far is this going? I have never perceived my cd player to sound any else than my phone, pc or sound card, but if for instance phone and audiophile companies eq their devices by software, that could explain something. But is that true? Also Arny told me that amplifiers (specifically the Behringer amp test) could sound audibly else. How?

As far as audio(phile) tests go, Im not sure how to actually believe them as I have a hard time hearing differences between two IEMs (with same sound signature of course). After a few seconds of listening, I completely forgot how the other one sounded. With that in mind it seems almost impossible to compare headphones at all as you always have to "switch" what causes some time to get lost.

With all this in mind it's almost impossible to buy audio gear. Fortunately a flat eq'ed device like a Sansa Clip is not expensive though. (and transducers are not flat either, so does it really matter if your source isnt completely flat?)

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #1
How much does gear differ from each other?

Quite a bit.

This excludes the speakers/headphones. It is totally about DAPs, amps, CD players etc etc

Front end electronics that convert or multiply voltages won't have a "sound", unless made to do so (deliberately or accidentally) or malfunctioning. Anything is possible, but generally speaking, non-pathological electronics are indistinguishable to ears without peeking. When peeking is allowed, all bets are off.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #2
How did you find two IEM's with the same sound signature?  Were they the same model?

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #3
Quote
After a few seconds of listening, I completely forgot how the other one sounded. With that in mind it seems almost impossible to compare headphones at all as you always have to "switch" what causes some time to get lost.

Right...    A couple of things can happen.    If you can hear a difference immediately but the next day you can't tell if you are listening to "A" or "B", then it doesn't make sense to upgrade or pay more for the better sounding one.    But I'm not always perfectly rational, and I might pay a penny or a dollar more for the one that sounds better in a short-term A/B comparison. 

Another thing that can happen is you might hear a defect and after listening for awhile it starts to sound normal.    If you've ever played-around with an equalizer, you might have boosted the bass and/or treble and when it sounds better boost a little more, and then maybe you come back the next day and you realize you over-did it.  Pro mixing & mastering engineers usually keep a known-good reference recording handy to "re-calibrate their ears".    Many years ago I was trying to repair a car stereo that was distorted.    It was pretty bad but after awhile I started to question if I was really hearing distortion.    After taking a break I could hear the distortion again.  (I don't remember if I listened to anything that wasn't broken during the break.) 

I was reading a review of the new Gibson monitors in Recording Magazine.    The reviewer says, "I burned them in for 48 hours before doing any serious listening;  The woofers did loosen up just a bit, nicely mellowing an initial midrange harshness."    I don't believe THAT!  I think his PERCPTION changed!    And of course, he didn't burn them in one at a time to A/B a burned-in one to a non burned-in one.    And, I really HOPE he's wrong!  I hope Gibson isn't building such an unstable design...  If the midrange is noticeably reduced in 48 hours there might be no midrange at all after 6 months or a year! 

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #4
Hi there,

Some of you could know me from Head-fi (ruben123), where I found it got "too hot under my feet" as they say it here. Discussing science is for the devil.

So now Ive come at a place where I could be sure to get an answer to my liking, I can ask the same question again, though a little different.

How much does gear differ from each other? This excludes the speakers/headphones. It is totally about DAPs, amps, CD players etc etc


Check out Archimago's gear comparisons.  Measurable differences are often found, and often so small/out of audible band, as to be insignificant to sound.

http://archimago.blogspot.com

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #5
I hesitate to post this, because I am far from sure that it is acceptable on this site. No blind testing or measurement of any kind was done.

In my experience of auditioning a DAC, for possible purchase from a friend, I found that I could not comfortably listen to it at all. It had the effect of punching me in the ears (headphones) and giving me a headache. I literally felt and winced at some vocals.

I have seen perceived differences vanish even in casual, unscientific, blind testing. I find it hard to believe that such a physically-felt difference could disappear, but I was only able to A/B=test sighted, and with time gaps to switch the computer-source config. I wish I could, at least, have had someone else do the switching for me, but that was not possible.

I haven't named the item. That would seem appropriate on an audiophile forum, where could all then pile in to the usual I-hear-it/I-don't-hear-it/you-must-be-deaf arguments that are not appropriate here. It is a piece of equipment from a young company with a devoted and growing following.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #6
I have noticed that over the years, as differences in electronic audio devices have become vanishingly small, the one glaring exception has been headphone amplifiers. For some reason, even very inexpensive devices can have excellent headphone amplifiers, while fairly expensive products have amplifiers that perform poorly, especially with low impedance headphones.

You should try testing the DAC in question with speakers and see if the problem disappears.

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #7
It is totally about DAPs, amps, CD players etc etc

Amps differ significantly in power, power can make a difference.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #8
@Thad: So that would be Schiit I guess.

--

A trivial reason why headphone amps can sound different is due to their output impedance. Most common result of high output impedance is a bass boost like effect with dynamic headphones, but frequency response deviations can be all over the place especially with in-ears that have multiple drivers, crossovers ...

"I hear it when I see it."

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #9
... ... ...

You should try testing the DAC in question with speakers and see if the problem disappears.


I did, and the experience was much better, but headphones are my primary listening device, so it didn't change the not-buying decision.


@Thad: So that would be Schiit I guess.

... ... ...


The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #10
Hi there all, great to see so many comments already.

How I found two IEMs with same sound signature (not 100% the same!): I owned a pair of IEMs for some years and bought out of curiosity a pair from the internet. When it arrived I "heard" that sound before and compared the two. One had a tad more bass and just a bit more treble (both warm earphones), but after a minute listening you totally forgot which I listened to. The differences were big enough to hear, but once I listened any longer than few seconds, my brain "forgot" the differences and both sounded the same.

I looked at Archimado, nice website. Sure going to read more from them.

So the consensus here is that most devices (have to) sound ruler flat. Question about some devices having a not flat FR keeps though, do manufacturers implant a sort of EQ in their software?

And what about the magical boxes, called headphone amps? You hear the craziest claims, better instrument separation, sound stage and dynamics. "Amplifier not only increases the volume, but also gives more power to the diaphragm so they perform better"
For sure I dont believe any of that audiophile talk as a science student myself. If your source gives you enough volume, why would you need an amplifier? Sure if you want more bass, louder volume etc you could need an amp, but else?

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #11
My measurements show that various audio gear do behave differently with the same set of test signals. The more difficult question is whether those differences affect listening experience - http://soundexpert.org/portable-players
keeping audio clear together - soundexpert.org

 

How much does gear differ really?

Reply #12
My measurements show that various audio gear do behave differently with the same set of test signals. The more difficult question is whether those differences affect listening experience - http://soundexpert.org/portable-players



That's hardly a news flash. In general the various channels of multichannel gear all measure a little bit different.

The essence is not measuring differences but finding which differences that are meaningful.