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Topic: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over (Read 55370 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #75 –
Check posts 47 and 56.

Me trolling? No you're confusing me with ajinfla

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #76 –
Quote from: botface on
Check posts 47 and 56.

But your first post was post 20, and said nothing about locality. Iguess I  eventually smoked out the truth.

I did a little research, and found that a high proportion of the titles initially offered in the UK were classical.

But offerings are not the same thing as sales. Classical sales were slipping even back then in the US. The CD probably helped prop them up for a while. They are again slipping.

I recall that one of the first CD offerings of any kind in the US was from the top-selling (worldwide) UK group Dire Straits, and  the pressings were imported to the US from Europe.

I also found comments by "A Rykodisk staffer" saying that they were unable to meet demand in theearly- mid-80s  because so much of the  world available CD production capacity was tied up making Dire Straits CDs. This pretty well agrees with my recollections from the day.

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #77 –
That pretty much agrees with my recollections too. Having said that the sales history graph is obviously incorrect as it shows zero CD sales in 1983. The media sales history by format doesn't say anything about genre and neither of them have any bearing on the reasons for CD's sales figures.

The Dire Straits album you refer to is probably Brothers In Arms but that wasn't released until 1985 so maybe you have another title in mind. Brothers In Arms certainly sold in large numbers on CD at the time

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #78 –
Quote from: botface on
That pretty much agrees with my recollections too.
Except you have gone beyond "recollection" and alleged "secret" polling data that showed UK classical fans weren't drawn by CD SQ, but primarily, convenience. It's well known folklore created by vinyl clutchers in their bubble. They insist that to this day, vinyl/analog is the ultimate SQ, rather than anything digital. That's of course a preference, not debatable. But concocted objective support to prop up a preference, like top secret polling data, is certainly debatable.
Believers fabricate their own "facts" in their bubble about a lot of things like this.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #79 –
Nowhere in this thread has botface said anything that can be construed as him believing that vinyl sound quality is as good or better than CD, so I'm perplexed as to why Arny and AJ seem to have jumped to that conclusion. All botface ever said was that there were other factors in addition to sound quality alone that drove the replacement of vinyl with CD.

In this big bad world controlled by multinational corporations, the idea that perhaps CD triumphed over vinyl because commercial interests forced it to be that way seems eminently plausible. In my opinion, the record companies saw that in the long run they would enjoy greater profit margins from CDs than from LPs and tapes, and so it was in their interest to drive the market that way. My own experience was that I stopped buying LPs because pressing quality nose-dived. An obvious possible reason for this is that there might have been some kind of conspiracy by the industry to encourage people towards CD. If there was, then it certainly worked on me!

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #80 –
Quote from: botface on
And it's true that classical music lovers were the most enthusiastic early adopters but the main reasons mentioned at the time were a lower noise floor and the ability to play a complete work without having to turn over rather than sound quality itself

Quote from: cliveb on
Nowhere in this thread has botface said anything that can be construed as him believing that vinyl sound quality is as good or better than CD
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #81 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: botface on
And it's true that classical music lovers were the most enthusiastic early adopters but the main reasons mentioned at the time were a lower noise floor and the ability to play a complete work without having to turn over rather than sound quality itself

Quote from: cliveb on
Nowhere in this thread has botface said anything that can be construed as him believing that vinyl sound quality is as good or better than CD
Why does the first quote from botface imply he thinks vinyl's sound quality is as good as CD?

He simply states that there were other reasons that were more significant than the improved sound quality - nowhere does he deny the fact that sound quality was indeed better.

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #84 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Nowhere in this thread has botface said anything that can be construed as him believing that vinyl sound quality is as good or better than CD, so I'm perplexed as to why Arny and AJ seem to have jumped to that conclusion.

I can only speak for myself, and what I read of AJ's. I see no such concusion.

Quote
All botface ever said was that there were other factors in addition to sound quality alone that drove the replacement of vinyl with CD.

In general, I totally agree. However, you are making the logical error or aggregation. You've taken a number of different statements, some agreed-on and some not, and wrapping them into one package. Thus you have dumbed-down the discussion to a straw man.

Quote
In this big bad world controlled by multinational corporations, the idea that perhaps CD triumphed over vinyl because commercial interests forced it to be that way seems eminently plausible.

There you go, negating the fact that CD finally gave us a medium that was soncially transparent and allowed the art to shine though.

Quote
In my opinion, the record companies saw that in the long run they would enjoy greater profit margins from CDs than from LPs and tapes,

That is hard to argue with because it is exactly what happened.

Quote
and so it was in their interest to drive the market that way.

This sort of false claim reminds me of a certain governmental top executive we have here in the US. He seems to think that if he tweets it, it is done.  Life is not that simple!

Look at how his "tweet it and it will be done" strategy worked for him with  Health Care!

The same is true with any product  You bring it to the market, you put it into the best light you can, but in the end you can't force people to buy it against their will. 

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My own experience was that I stopped buying LPs because pressing quality nose-dived.

IME it was a dive from a low board.

Quote
An obvious possible reason for this is that there might have been some kind of conspiracy by the industry to encourage people towards CD. If there was, then it certainly worked on me!

In a way what actually happened supports my model of market acceptance. The major companies abandoned the LP, but a  market remained. New sources of supply sprang up to meet the needs of that market. If the remaining market was large and there was pent-up demand, the niche providers would have been able to backfill the artificial void and restore LP sales to what they were.

Never happened. In fact all that remains is a tiny niche - a vapor of what the LP market used to be. Heck, the cassette with all of its failings had already taken almost half the market.  There was never any throttling of the cassette market. When people could get CDs of their favorite music, the market for both cassettes and LPs disappeared for all practical purposes.

There is copious and very clear evidence that a true resurgence of LP sales  never happened.

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #86 –
Quote
Lame attempt to turn a statsitical glitch into eternal truth...
Nah. Classic Strawman. You seem to have a need to always be right no matter the facts, like a certain president you disdain. Well guess what- you have something in common with him. I merely put up the link since someone mentioned streaming and I had previously heard about that particular event. Suck it up.

********************

Someone mentioned that to get the LP to be quiet, you have to roll off the highs which simply has not been my experience at all. Just for fun, years back I spec'ced out my phono equalizer to 100KHz, and my line section to 400KHz (IOW I get quiet LPs and no rolloff).

I'm convinced at this point that those here who complain about noise must not treat their LP surfaces very well, and from other threads on this site, I'm starting to think they have compromised pickups too. Neither are good for noise. Any format has to be respected; its not a good idea to scratch up the surface of a CD, why would it be OK to do that to an LP??

I'm not saying the LP is as quiet as a CD (although it can get close) but to those that think the format is dreadful due to ticks and pops and whatnot, you seem to be conflating your personal experience as a universal truth. If your LP rig is not sounding as good as your CDP then you know its got a problem and the problem isn't the format. IOW it should sound excellent with very little difference from the CD.

On high end audio websites I see that others have similar experiences to mine, but on this site that seems to be rare.

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There is copious and very clear evidence that a true resurgence of LP sales  never happened.
That's actually really funny that you actually put that up on a site that demands a bit more rigor. Irony is still in.

Obviously you can't cause your hand to move and google 'vinyl' resurgence', and like Trump, you apparently think mainstream reporting is fake news, unless you have a very special short-bus meaning for the word 'true' of which no-one was previously aware:
https://www.forbes.com/vinyl/#3fe172deebdd
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanpassman/2017/01/12/vinyl-is-officially-booming-the-new-billion-dollar-music-business/#3501e4934054
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/13/vinyl-is-vintage-and-the-future-as-new-generation-warms-to-an-old-music-form.html

..and so on, google 'vinyl resergence' and Suck. It. Up.

Of course, since this doesn't fit your world view, it must be #fakenews right?

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #87 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
If your LP rig is not sounding as good as your CDP then you know its got a problem and the problem isn't the format. IOW it should sound excellent with very little difference from the CD.
Actually if your "audiophile" rig can't clearly demonstrate the superiority of CD/digital over LP with classical music, then it's typical low info audiophile garbage.
But not surprising.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #88 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Please discuss your experiences in the largest CD market in the world, if you know where it is.

Japan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_music_industry_market_share_data


The land of the rising LaserDisc!

Did the CD really gain momentum until the record industry raised LP prices to the expensive CD price? IIRC (the thread is way into anecdote-land already):
On my (the East) side of the Atlantic, the industry made a quick 50 percent price increase (first by claiming that CDs were so expensive to produce, and then by increasing LP prices to CD levels) - and then the "full price" tag did not move much for thirty years. 

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #89 –
Quote from: cliveb on
FWIW, and this is purely anecdotal...

When I started using CDs around 1985, I bought classical on CD and continued buying rock on vinyl. I did this for pretty much exactly the reasons botface describes: the ability to hear a complete work without having to change sides/LPs, and for the lower noise floor.

I finally switched to buying rock on CD when I became exasperated at having to return too many faulty vinyl pressings, not for sound quality reasons per se. That said, I guess you could argue that a pressing fault - ie. big clicks and pops - is the ultimate example of poor sound quality.

Hmm.  Anecdotally, I embraced CD *immediately* in the early 1980s for sound quality reasons, even though I had a good 'midfi' turntable  (Systemdek IIx, with a Shure V15 III cart).  *I even bought CDs before I had  CD player*.  I cared about sound quality FAR MORE than the length capacity.   Everyone else I know did too (though everyone liked the idea of not having to 'flip over' the disc/tape)

You and botface are UK folk.  Maybe there was a difference there compared to the States (a much larger market). Here, as technically clueless audiophiles are wont to remind us forever, the format was marketed as 'Perfect Sound Forever'


Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #90 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
Lame attempt to turn a statsitical glitch into eternal truth...
Nah. Classic Strawman. You seem to have a need to always be right no matter the facts, like a certain president you disdain. Well guess what- you have something in common with him. I merely put up the link since someone mentioned streaming and I had previously heard about that particular event. Suck it up.

********************

Someone mentioned that to get the LP to be quiet, you have to roll off the highs which simply has not been my experience at all. Just for fun, years back I spec'ced out my phono equalizer to 100KHz, and my line section to 400KHz (IOW I get quiet LPs and no rolloff).

I'm convinced at this point that those here who complain about noise must not treat their LP surfaces very well, and from other threads on this site, I'm starting to think they have compromised pickups too. Neither are good for noise. Any format has to be respected; its not a good idea to scratch up the surface of a CD, why would it be OK to do that to an LP??


Oh for f*ck's sake, just stop this special pleading for vinyl.  It's entirely possible for a normally-used CD (even with visible scratches) to sound like an LP that has been treated with the utmost TLC (which is unreasonable to expect of a mass market format, but whatever) -- *if* the mastering engineer so chooses.    The CD format is both more immune to rough handling and more capable of offering audio faithful to the master source within the audible range,  than vinyl. Full stop. Anyone who claims otherwise is prevaricating.  Preference for vinyl has to do entirely with the comforts of packaging, ritual, euphonic distortion (which can also be fully rendered on CD), and more recently , cultural cachet (hipness).  NOT objectively superior quality. 
 

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #91 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Someone mentioned that to get the LP to be quiet, you have to roll off the highs which simply has not been my experience at all.

The high end roll off need not be in the gear.

 I'm still trying to figure out why some people say they can't hear the incessant surface noise that is inherent in vinyl.

 OTOH they say that ear damage is pretty common...

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #92 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Oh for f*ck's sake, just stop this special pleading for vinyl.
Though he has no sig identifying his interests, as all such should (See "Loudspeaker Manufacturer" there? Yup), he's "in the biz", so cut him some slack for pitching vinyl.
I've heard countless "audiophile" uber high end vinyl based systems. When they say they can't hear the difference between vinyl and CD spec digital playing full orchestra pieces, I believe them. With their systems and ears, it's most likely true.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #93 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: krabapple on
Oh for f*ck's sake, just stop this special pleading for vinyl.
Though he has no sig identifying his interests, as all such should (See "Loudspeaker Manufacturer" there? Yup), he's "in the biz", so cut him some slack for pitching vinyl.
I've heard countless "audiophile" uber high end vinyl based systems. When they say they can't hear the difference between vinyl and CD spec digital playing full orchestra pieces, I believe them. With their systems and ears, it's most likely true.

cheers,

AJ

Well, sure. I've heard terrific-sounding vinyl setups too -- though if you mean 'loud parts of full orchestral pieces' I don't think that's necessarily the best way to illustrate the different capabilities of the two formats  (CD excels at low-level reproduction and pitch stability, to name two things, so those would best be highlighted by something like a sustained note or chord that fades to silence).  Both formats can deliver spectacularly good sound.  It remains the case though that 1) vinyl discs are far more vulnerable to permanent noise-producing damage than compact discs, and  2) CD can do anything vinyl can do within the audible range, while the reverse is not true.   (And I  know you know all this already.)


Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #94 –
Quote from: krabapple on
though if you mean 'loud parts of full orchestral pieces'
I mean music, like certain orchestral works, with the widest dynamic range, deep bass (below 20hz), etc., played at realistic levels, to expose the limitations of vinyl...which electronic/rock/pop music that vinyl clutchers mainly listen to, won't expose.
Remember, not talking "preference" here, but the physical reality limits of the soundfield, that only the audiophile deaf could miss.
Oh and even lowly CD players can output the signal digitally, which allows for DSP eq at LF in the modal range to be employed, instead of wishful thinking away bass modes (or more audiophile deafness in inability to detect these real room modal problems).

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #96 –
Quote
Oh for f*ck's sake, just stop this special pleading for vinyl.

And you don't have a special pleading for digital?? Keep in mind that the OP of this topic turned out to be false- that LP sales have been and are continuing to increase. You might ask why that is, why it is that you can get LPs at Target, Best Buy and Barnes and Nobles where you couldn't at those places only 5-6 years ago.

The thing is, analog or digital can sound just fine! When I play digital at shows, my goal is to get it to sound as good as LP (IOW not bright and annoying). When I play LPs at shows, my goal is to have them be as silent and noise-free as digital. There are strengths to both formats; I started taking digital seriously about 20 years ago with the Appogee DACs. That DAC showed that digital playback finally got good enough that it stopped giving me headaches.

Before that my yardstick for assessing how good a digital system was done by seeing how long it took to get a headache. In the early days 30 seconds was sufficient (of course my hearing was better then) and it took until the 1990s before I could stay in the room all day with a strictly digital source.

That was important as I do audio for a living. When I would go to CES, sometimes the only source was digital. Playing analog was considered 'cheating' if you wanted to make your room sound good (being in the Specialty/high end part of the game, we didn't have booths on the convention floor, instead CES had us in a hotel. I started in the Las Vegas Riviera, then we got moved to the Sahara Bi-Level complex, and finally to the Alexis Park before we bailed on CES entirely).

Quote
I mean music, like certain orchestral works, with the widest dynamic range, deep bass (below 20hz), etc., played at realistic levels, to expose the limitations of vinyl...which electronic/rock/pop music that vinyl clutchers mainly listen to, won't expose.

Look out for the Verdi Requiem on the RCA Soria series. Side 1 track 2 and tell me that you don't hear some dynamic range (most systems can reproduce it...). Or the Saint Saens Organ symphony, which has sub-20Hz in the grooves- it can shake the walls.... As far as electronic music goes, try out 'Mystical Experiences' on the Blue Room label (apparently a subsidiary of B&W Loudspeakers). A favorite of mine for showing off the abilities (or lack thereof) of a system is Black Sabbath's Paranoid on the Vertigo white label. That recording has enough energy that if you try to play it at a life-like level, most systems just cack.

I think the biggest problem for the special pleading for digital crowd is that many CDs are compressed due to an expectation that they will be played in a car. LPs **these days** usually don't have that compression unless the producer is being lazy or cheap. Keeping in mind of course that almost any LP available today is a special run/limited edition; a 10,000 copy run is a pretty big run.

Quote
instead of wishful thinking away bass modes (or more audiophile deafness in inability to detect these real room modal problems).

There's a whole industry around room treatment. I know a manufacturer that builds subs that are meant to be deployed in multiples to eliminate nodes and such. Its not been my experience that audiophiles are unaware of these issues- most installations I've seen have some sort of treatment

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #97 –
Quote from: 4season on
I believe someone else on HA posted a link to these Hifi World phono cartridge frequency plots recently. I'd imagine that a cartridge like the Shure M97 would be "warmer" and more forgiving of record noise than the Ortofon 2M Red:

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/70-tests/103-cartridge-tests.html?showall=1

No-where in the article does it mention what tone arm is used nor are any higher performance cartridges used, which is disturbing, as the ability of the arm to track the cartridge is IME far more important than the actual cartridge used. But the article is quite consistent on this omission. . Additionally, this comment:
Quote
For example, the Goldring Legacy MC produces a very low 0.26mV and hiss is audible with many preamplifiers. Only a low input Z transformer with a high turns ratio can cope with this

-is false, there are a number of phono equalizers that can have good SNR numbers without an SUT; IOW direct-in.

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #98 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
I mean music, like certain orchestral works, with the widest dynamic range, deep bass (below 20hz), etc., played at realistic levels, to expose the limitations of vinyl...which electronic/rock/pop music that vinyl clutchers mainly listen to, won't expose.

Look out for the Verdi Requiem on the RCA Soria series. Side 1 track 2 and tell me that you don't hear some dynamic range (most systems can reproduce it...). Or the Saint Saens Organ symphony, which has sub-20Hz in the grooves- it can shake the walls....

I don't think you really understand the point. There's an audible dynamic range on every classical recording, whatever the format: LP, CD, MP3. There's no need to mention any composition, or recording, or specific tracks.
On vinyl the maximal dynamic range is reduced compared to PCM 44,1/16 based formats. Because every time the music comes closer to silence you'll hear noise surface, pops, cracks, distortion… Something you can't ear at all with CD on normal listening conditions. The dynamic range here simply means Signal to Noise Ratio (and has nothing to do with the rather misleading DR Range).

I have more than 2500 classical CD in my own collection, and I'm used to this sound. When I had the opportunity to listen recently classical music on vinyl (it was an Oratorio from Haendel) I was very excited… and was really astonished by the high amount of noise and other defects. It's was absolutely not transparent, and the sound was clearly behind the CD version. It was simply poor. I also downloaded for "science" some high quality vinyl rip (those made with insanely expensive material and time costly preparation) which were sampled in DSD128 or PCM 192/24…32 and I thought it was a kind of joke. The noise amount is really high and the only time I wasn't disturbed by it is when the music played loudly. There were also many other sound issues mainly audible with low volume music on those "high resolution audiophile hardware" vinyl rip. The dynamic range is clearly and by far lower on classical LP than on classical CD. Especially on modern and crystal clear recordings.

I guess I could post samples but I also guess that some people will just say the vinyl rip was just poorly made by someone who can't set up properly his own turntable.

For the little story, here are the amazon sales for LP in 2004 and 2012. In 2012, 0,1% of LP sales were classical music albums. 0,1%… Which is really surprising when you know the appetite of classical music audiophiles for SACD (~50% of the whole catalog are classical stuff) or more recently Blu-Ray Audio.

Re: WSJ asks Why Vinyls Boom Is Over

Reply #99 –
Quote from: guruboolez on
Quote from: Atmasphere on


Look out for the Verdi Requiem on the RCA Soria series. Side 1 track 2 and tell me that you don't hear some dynamic range (most systems can reproduce it...). Or the Saint Saens Organ symphony, which has sub-20Hz in the grooves- it can shake the walls....


 When I had the opportunity to listen recently classical music on vinyl (it was an Oratorio from Haendel) I was very excited… and was really astonished by the high amount of noise and other defects. It's was absolutely not transparent, and the sound was clearly behind the CD version. It was simply poor. I also downloaded for "science" some high quality vinyl rip (those made with insanely expensive material and time costly preparation) which were sampled in DSD128 or PCM 192/24…32 and I thought it was a kind of joke. The noise amount is really high and the only time I wasn't disturbed by it is when the music played loudly. There were also many other sound issues mainly audible with low volume music on those "high resolution audiophile hardware" vinyl rip. The dynamic range is clearly and by far lower on classical LP than on classical CD. Especially on modern and crystal clear recordings.
I have to assume this was not your rig then.

What sort of arm and cartridge? What phono preamp was used? As I have pointed out before, the phono preamp can cause ticks and pops to sound a lot louder than they are on the LP itself. It can be the difference between 'noisy- take the record back to the shop' or 'just fine- crank it up'. If the arm is unable to track the cartridge, it can crackle and sound strained on complex passages as it mistracks. The cartridge itself might not up to the task if its older and the cantilever assembly has lost its proper suspension. So there are some variables and its important to not conflate them and your experience thereof with the media itself.