Where is your "relevant stuff”?

I already said I’m agnostic on Winer’s claims.

Quote

This article is meant mainly as a rebuttal to those who believe that early reflections enhance sound quality in a typical home-sized listening room.
Some audiophiles believe that reflections in a listening room enhance spaciousness....played back in a small untreated room, the strong early reflections drown out the larger sounding reverb in the recording. This makes the music sound smaller and narrower, not larger and wider. One common myth is that rooms used mainly for playing stereo music should be treated differently, and less, than home theater rooms.
The value of absorbers at reflection points is standard for professional listeners, and should likewise be the goal for an audiophile or home theater enthusiast who wants a listening environment as excellent as a million dollar control room. Anything less and you won't experience the same clarity and quality as the mix engineers heard when creating the music or movie soundtrack.
Stereo creates a virtual center channel, so for someone sitting in the middle there's no real difference between having a center speaker or not.
As far as I know Dr. Toole is not a recording engineer, and he hasn't mixed music professionally if at all. I don't think he's a musician either, so that probably affect his opinions. Floyd's statements about early reflections defy my own personal experience, and the experience of almost every other audio engineer I know. Floyd claims that early reflections increase clarity, and cites research that proves "people" prefer the sound of music with early reflections present. But of those tested, how many were experienced listeners and how many were regular folk with no particular interest in audio and music? If the tests included "civilians" who don't listen for a living or even as a hobby, it's difficult to accept the results.

Please don’t label me “believer”

I agree that the switching time need not be super-fast. I would argue it depends on the level of processing, from sensory to perceptual to cognitive, of the sound.

Quote from: bobbaker on 2015-11-26 14:32:05

Where is your "relevant stuff”?

Unfortunately it will be incomprehensible to you/your ilk, but here it is.
For perhaps something you might comprehend.

most of the evidence that Toole relies on was not developed using DBTs 
One difference is my 30+ years of experience with actually trying to DBT speakers. 
In general the differences between speakers are easy enough to hear.

treatments have audible effects and if you manage them well they can improve SQ 
Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics
are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations. 

It has been conclusively proven that casual sighted listening evaluations are 100% susceptible to false positives 

Net effect: zero

[...]

Well, why is it assumed necessary? Because it is necessary.

Or rather, it is not assumed, it is known.

Go into a relatively empty, typical rectangular room with flat hard walls, floor, ceiling and you'll know why.

Quote from: xnor on 2015-11-26 15:52:39

Or rather, it is not assumed, it is known.

Go into a relatively empty, typical rectangular room with flat hard walls, floor, ceiling and you'll know why.

Not if you are stone deaf.  That may explain the surprising recent skeptical comments about room acoustics - the commentators are stone deaf and don't hear the natural differences in the acoustics of various rooms that the rest of us hear.

Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime?
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.

I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2015-11-27 10:27:22

Not if you are stone deaf.  That may explain the surprising recent skeptical comments about room acoustics - the commentators are stone deaf and don't hear the natural differences in the acoustics of various rooms that the rest of us hear.

Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime?
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.

I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.

Obviously AJ, you can't tell the difference between people with deficient ears, and those who can't hear at all. Put on the pointed cap, sit in the corner, listen carefully (which we know you don't do based on your fiascos with the videos I posted) and be quiet.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2015-11-27 10:27:22

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.

Again AJ the existence and benefits of listener training has been validated with DBTs, so this is another area where you are exposing your ignrorance.
Uh oh.

I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.(7/2014)

Obviously AJ, you can't tell the difference between people with deficient ears, and those who can't hear at all.

which we know you don't do based on your fiascos with the videos I posted

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2015-11-27 10:27:22

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.

Again AJ the existence and benefits of listener training has been validated with DBTs, so this is another area where you are exposing your ignrorance.
Uh oh.

Granted, an extreme example.

uploads

It all depends on the room.

In my experience, nearly all room need substantial absorption, though, though, though, [/size]though, though

Quote from: xnor on 2015-11-27 19:27:20

Granted, an extreme example.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Quote from: xnor on 2015-11-27 19:27:20

uploads

Those aren't the droids we're looking for. Try here instead.

The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2015-11-28 10:48:57

The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published

Yep and completely unbeknownst to you,

where one would find reliable, blind test evidence for "treatments" efficacy...if it exists.
Completely opposite of:

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2015-11-27 14:52:04

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

..and is therefore utterly useless.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.

someone such as your self AJ that has shown themselves to be completely deaf or so hearing disabled

Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime?
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.
I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.

most of the audiophile/studiophile world sees no need for DBTs involving room acoustics and loudspeakers, due to the large and readily audible nature of these changes

Quote from: ajinfla on 2015-11-27 22:23:30

Quote from: xnor on 2015-11-27 19:27:20

Granted, an extreme example.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Quote from: xnor on 2015-11-27 19:27:20

uploads

Those aren't the droids we're looking for. Try here instead.

The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published, and is therefore utterly useless.

I call this example extreme

Quote from: xnor on 2015-11-28 14:34:54

<man stuffed with straw>

Ok

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-the...ml#post37191770