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Topic: Low-end and brightness (Read 8135 times) previous topic - next topic
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Low-end and brightness

Just a question. Is it true that if the bass is thin or anemic sounding in the room that it can affect ones perception of 'brightness'? What I mean to say is, if the bass is poor, it can perceptually affect the entire spectrum, including the top-end?

I would think that lacking a good bass foundation might skewer the perception towards the top-end but I could be wrong on that.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #2 –
I'd say  no, but it probably depends on the sophistication of the listener and the listener's definition of "brightness".

And of course without a fixed volume reference, cutting to low-half of the frequency range is no different from boosting the high-half.  Or (again without a volume reference), cutting/shelving everything below 100Hz by 6dB is no different from boosting the frequencies above 100Hz by 6dB.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #3 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
I'd say  no, but it probably depends on the sophistication of the listener and the listener's definition of "brightness".


Treble predominance. If the bass is weak in the room, let's say because the speakers have a lack of bass and the listener thinks it sounds trebly, could that anemic bass precipitate the perception of 'brightness', due to the biasing effects of a skewed frequency response?

I've worked with graphics EQ's in the past and I know that if I turn down a few sliders in the bass range (below 80 hz) that it can make the sound sound 'thin'. So I thought I would ask this question because I find it interesting. If adding a subwoofer would have far-reaching implications on ones perception of the entire spectrum, not just on the bass range itself.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #5 –
Maybe the question should be, how much low end signal does it take to mask high end signal?

Low-end and brightness

Reply #6 –
Again, I say a sophisticated listener would identify the lack of bass.    An audio engineer who mixes for a living could probably exactly  identify the problem.

I don't use an equalizer every day but I can probably identify 4 or 5 frequency bands and I'm 100% sure I can identify 3 bands (bass, mids, highs).

Quote
...and the listener thinks it sounds trebly, could that anemic bass precipitate the perception of 'brightness', due to the biasing effects of a skewed frequency response?

...that it can make the sound sound 'thin'.
You have to be careful with the terminology unless you are in the company of someone who "speaks the same language". 

To me "trebley" or "bright" could include a fair amount of midrange...  i.e. 1kHz  is in the mid range but I'd say a 1kHz tone is "high pitched".

Sometimes I'll say "dull", "bright", "muffled", etc., but usually I like to include more specific scientific/engineering terminology for clarity.

It's better if we can get more specific and say things like, "The deep bass is missing", or "I don't hear anything below around 80Hz."  Whaddya Mean The Sound Is Fluffy?

Low-end and brightness

Reply #7 –
Also, in some genres you wouldn't notice a big difference attenuating sub bass, either because there is not much there to begin with, or the producers make use of an effect called "missing fundamental".
"I hear it when I see it."

Low-end and brightness

Reply #8 –
Quote from: greynol on
No appreciation for mid-range?

Do you find sound from the telephone bright?

GSM should carry stuff from about 200 Hz to about 3.1 Khz, which should sound boring (but good enough) for voice (possibly not bright enough) and extremely boring for music (Most likely too bright). Or whats the question?
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Low-end and brightness

Reply #9 –
Okay, I thought adding a subwoofer could give the perception of a fuller sound. Not having this fullness, due to a lack of bass at the listening position, could depending on the situation, make the sound 'thin', and hence the higher frequencies would be more noticeable as a result, hence possible brightness.

If I'm wrong I'll gladly accept it and move on.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #10 –
It might help if you stopped using words like 'fuller' and 'thin' to describe sound. The nearest I'd guess you mean in these is in the mid-range?

I can always tell when there's a lack of bass, for example moving from my stereo downstairs which has floorstanders and going to my bedroom which has smaller 'bookshelf' type speakers. But, that's just it, it's just missing some bass and that's how I'd describe it. It isn't any brighter. This is a good test for me as both speakers have the same tweeters and mid drivers, the floorstanders just having an extra bass driver.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #11 –
Quote from: probedb on
It might help if you stopped using words like 'fuller' and 'thin' to describe sound. The nearest I'd guess you mean in these is in the mid-range?

I can always tell when there's a lack of bass, for example moving from my stereo downstairs which has floorstanders and going to my bedroom which has smaller 'bookshelf' type speakers. But, that's just it, it's just missing some bass and that's how I'd describe it. It isn't any brighter. This is a good test for me as both speakers have the same tweeters and mid drivers, the floorstanders just having an extra bass driver.


I don't know how else to describe it? Most people use sound descriptions, and that's how I would describe it based on my perception of that sound. I can't say it's upper mid-range, or the lower-mids. To me, the bass sounds lacking down low giving me the perception of 'thin sound'.

Now it's not difficult to understand what I mean by 'thin' in this context. If you high-pass speakers from 80 hz and down it can sound 'thin' too (bass light, or whatever).

So again, if the bass range below 80 Hz is lacking, due to room acoustics, or placement issues, can that exasperate the perception of too much energy higher up the frequency range?

Low-end and brightness

Reply #12 –
I think you need to review that dress optical illusion that was doing the rounds a few weeks ago, along with older optical illusions where our perception of a colour is utterly changed by its background. Of course, it is not meant to be a direct comparison, or analogy, even, but a reminder that the presence of one thing affects our perception of others.

Weren't you talking about EQ some time back? This stuff is easy enough to experiment with.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Low-end and brightness

Reply #13 –
I don't think so, unless you try to compensate the loss in bass by increasing volume.

Maybe there is a slight shift in attention towards treble.. but if you then also attenuate treble you will be left with mids-dominated sound. Maybe some people actually prefer that over balanced mids and highs..
"I hear it when I see it."

Low-end and brightness

Reply #14 –
Quote from: xnor on
I don't think so, unless you try to compensate the loss in bass by increasing volume.

Maybe there is a slight shift in attention towards treble.. but if you then also attenuate treble you will be left with mids-dominated sound. Maybe some people actually prefer that over balanced mids and highs..


Yes, I'm not suggesting that the treble or upper-mids or whatever are actually increasing or anything, but merely that the perception of anemic bass can lead one to focusing more on the upper range, which can result in the subjective terms I mentioned earlier. I don't know if I'm making sense here or not. Sorry if I'm not.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #15 –
I once tested a few headphones, and went from a pair with dramatically overemphasized bass to one with more reasonable low-end output. Because I'd gotten used to the first pair, the second one sounded a bit lightweight for a minute, until my brain adjusted, and then all required bass was again fine and accounted for.

Yeah, if you reduce bass, it's going to sound weird at first and your gut feeling will scream oh no this is terrible when it's actually okay and you merely need to adjust. Same for adding a wad of bass with a subwoofer (which I hate, personally)

What is too much and too little? Only you can say what you like and dislike. Just make sure you say it based on experiences with different hardware and EQ, and after giving yourself a minute to get used to a change. They say the HD555 is a little low on bass... but it's all there and I'm fine with it.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #16 –
Quote from: dhromed on
Yeah, if you reduce bass, it's going to sound weird at first and your gut feeling will scream oh no this is terrible when it's actually okay and you merely need to adjust. Same for adding a wad of bass with a subwoofer (which I hate, personally)


That's what most people do when they first get a subwoofer, they crank it up to boom and thunder as much as possible, which can be incredibly aggravating (but it's very impolite to fiddle other people's knobs without their permission).

I was guilty of this myself, at least at first. Now my subs are adjusted so I basically forget they're even there, because they just integrate seamlessly into the overall sound and don't draw attention to themselves.

It makes a definite difference whether they're on or off, but it's not like everything else sounds 'thin' without them, it just ends up lacking the very deepest bass notes, so they not strictly essential, but they provide a nice 'foundation'.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #17 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Quote from: dhromed on
Yeah, if you reduce bass, it's going to sound weird at first and your gut feeling will scream oh no this is terrible when it's actually okay and you merely need to adjust. Same for adding a wad of bass with a subwoofer (which I hate, personally)


That's what most people do when they first get a subwoofer, they crank it up to boom and thunder as much as possible, which can be incredibly aggravating (but it's very impolite to fiddle other people's knobs without their permission).

I was guilty of this myself, at least at first. Now my subs are adjusted so I basically forget they're even there, because they just integrate seamlessly into the overall sound and don't draw attention to themselves.

It makes a definite difference whether they're on or off, but it's not like everything else sounds 'thin' without them, it just ends up lacking the very deepest bass notes, so they not strictly essential, but they provide a nice 'foundation'.


Let's say you're using a bookshelf, and let's say they go down to around 50 Hz - 3 dB, and that you're sitting in a region where there may be a wide depression between 50-80 Hz. Let's say they sound lean in the bass on most music as a result.

At higher levels the lack of bass and the highs dominate, so there is a shift in the spectrum. Hence what I'm saying that it could be perceived as sounding 'trebly' or 'bright'. Adding a sub can restore the 'fullness' at the lower end which will not draw as much attention to the rest of the upper spectrum as a result as the spectrum of sound is more even than it was before.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Let's say you're using a bookshelf, and let's say they go down to around 50 Hz - 3 dB, and that you're sitting in a region where there may be a wide depression between 50-80 Hz. Let's say they sound lean in the bass on most music as a result.

At higher levels the lack of bass and the highs dominate, so there is a shift in the spectrum. Hence what I'm saying that it could be perceived as sounding 'trebly' or 'bright'. Adding a sub can restore the 'fullness' at the lower end which will not draw as much attention to the rest of the upper spectrum as a result as the spectrum of sound is more even than it was before.


I disagree. The low bass may be missing, but you're still getting the full spectrum from midbass upwards. So it'll sound less "full" and with less bass impact, but it won't sound more "trebly" or "bright".

To do that, you would have to attenuate the mids as well, or boost the highs specifically.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Just a question. Is it true that if the bass is thin or anemic sounding in the room that it can affect ones perception of 'brightness'? What I mean to say is, if the bass is poor, it can perceptually affect the entire spectrum, including the top-end?

I would think that lacking a good bass foundation might skewer the perception towards the top-end but I could be wrong on that.


I've definitely experienced the perception where what got cleaned up and extended was the bass, but the treble also umm seemed to coincidentally snap into focus quite a bit.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #20 –
When the same audio is presented two times, at  different levels, there is a tendency (unless the difference is large) to perceive the louder version as sounding 'better' -- not sounding 'louder'.  It is a 'misinterpretation' of the actual facts.

That is analogous to what RichB is getting at here.  Do we ever psychoacoustically misinterpret a less bassy presentation as being 'more mid/trebly' rather than 'less bassy'?

Low-end and brightness

Reply #21 –
I interpret it as having less bass.  The same thing happens when you turn the level down, though the "brightness" also subsides, depending on how you define "bright". If bright is in the area of 3k and you reduce the volume then the sound will be more bright. I don't think of bright as 3k, but whatever.

Low-end and brightness

Reply #22 –
Quote from: greynol on
I interpret it as having less bass.  The same thing happens when you turn the level down, though the "brightness" also subsides, depending on how you define "bright". If bright is in the area of 3k and you reduce the volume then the sound will be more bright. I don't think of bright as 3k, but whatever.



I think the operative word in my post is ever.  Just as with overall volume (where the *degree* of difference impacts how 'accurately'  the difference is interpreted) , does a small difference in bass always get interpreted that as just that?

(We must of course also factor in Fletcher-Munson)

Low-end and brightness

Reply #23 –
Quote
That is analogous to what RichB is getting at here. Do we ever psychoacoustically misinterpret a less bassy presentation as being 'more mid/trebly' rather than 'less bassy'?


Yes, exactly!

Low-end and brightness

Reply #24 –
And my answer is, I don't know.  I would not be surprised if it happened, for some people, when bass level differences are small.