HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => Audio Hardware => Topic started by: azoth on 2012-12-17 15:25:34

Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-17 15:25:34
Hi All,

I've optimised my headphone search into a metaphorical cul-de-sac 

I've viewed the graph comparisons, read the subjective listener impressions, viewed (but not listened to) models instore and generally spent far too much time trying to make an informed decision about my first set of proper high end headphones.

I've owned rather nice IEMs (Phonaks, Hifimans, Shures), swapped a few headphone amps and spent far too much time reading audiophile blogs. Then I got a bit bored of the fanboyism and went off in search of something sensibly priced, well built and neutral.

I'm looking for a pair of neutral, highly detailed headphones for general home listening, primarily for prog metal, post rock, electronica, classical (modern composition) and world music. Basically anything featured in The Wire magazine. I'm not a bass head an didn't rate Sennheiser Momentums, Sennheiser Amperiors and UE6000s (passive mode) when I tested them out recently - too much booming bass. Having said that I do like well defined, articulate bass, just in intended quantities, not boosted because its the current trend.

Right now I intend to power my headphones with a Minibox E+, but in the near future I want to get an O2 / ODAC combo - a chain that ensures that I hear my music without colouring, exactly as the recording engineer intended. So the final piece of the puzzle is which pair of headphones to get. Based on my neutral / detailed requirement I've been gravitating towards the Sennheiser HD600, but there's something that makes me balk at spending 300 quid on a 16 year old headphone which used to cost a hundred quid+ less a few years ago. I understand the benefits of driver matching, the amazing sound signature, etc but I'm wondering if for the money I can do a bit better.

I've also considered the Hifiman HE-400 and HE-500 series, though the 500s are getting very pricy and I'd rather not spend THAT much on headphones. Although buying the 500s via Head Direct's ebay store makes the price a bit more palatable. Basically I'd say top end of my budget is about £400 if I can get away with it (though spending less is of course welcome).

Am I missing anything for consideration ? Or have I covered all the bases ? Someone considered Beyer DT880s, but they have non-removable cables and I figure that being able to swap cables means being able to fix parts of the headphone that fail.

Your advice is much appreciated.

Azoth
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: extrabigmehdi on 2012-12-17 16:03:51
I've been gravitating towards the Sennheiser HD600, but there's something that makes me balk at spending 300 quid on a 16 year old headphone which used to cost a hundred quid+ less a few years ago.


Sennheiser is a brand that became a bit too popular. It's way too much hyped, often recommended by people that have no clue of what are other offerings from other brands.  So, off course Sennheiser raise  prices. Sennheiser also create new models, in order  to justify even bigger prices, but the improvements can be controverted, I  saw lot of bashing regarding the 1000$ hd700.

Quote
Someone considered Beyer DT880s, but they have non-removable cables


You know I  got a hard lesson with the srh940. They come with removable cables. But cracks appeared on the headband,
and according to many review, they'll break soon or later.  So in that case , having removable cables doesn't matter much.
The beyer have reputation of good build quality , just take care of them.


Quote
I've also considered the Hifiman HE-400

An affordable orthodynamic headphone , I'd try them if I  could.

Quote
I'm looking for a pair of neutral, highly detailed headphones for general home listening, primarily for prog metal, post rock, electronica, classical (modern composition) and world music.

You might look at head-fi too.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-17 16:16:42
Quote
I've also considered the Hifiman HE-400
An affordable orthodynamic headphone , I'd try them if I  could.


Yes, I might get an opportunity to, but here in the UK they're sold for strictly £395, which is of course a little pricier than in the states.

Quote
I'm looking for a pair of neutral, highly detailed headphones for general home listening, primarily for prog metal, post rock, electronica, classical (modern composition) and world music.

You might look at head-fi too.


I'm rather reluctant to be honest - their signal to noise ratio is too high for me. Lots of people trying to justify expensive purchases without much factual information i.e. measurements to back it up.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: extrabigmehdi on 2012-12-17 16:33:24
I'm rather reluctant to be honest - their signal to noise ratio is too high for me. Lots of people trying to justify expensive purchases without much factual information i.e. measurements to back it up.


Well, the hd800 has good measurements almost everywhere, except they have some treble emphasis.
I  wouldn't be surprised if some people would hate them, their sound is a bit particular.
All I  know is that orthodynamics usually excels on bass , so you'd probably appreciate the he-400 for  electronica.

Just get the dt-880 then, they are well-known, and usually praised.
Forget about the removable cable, I  never got problem with cable. I  was more concerned
by the 3.5 mm thin  phone connector, but if you take care ....
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-17 16:41:57
Just get the dt-880 then, they are well-known, and usually praised.
Forget about the removable cable, I  never got problem with cable. I  was more concerned
by the 3.5 mm thin  phone connector, but if you take care ....


They're on the list of considerations - thank you for sharing your experience with the cable, nice to know it isn't much of a problem.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Carledwards on 2012-12-17 17:25:17
All things considered, the HD600 really is a good choice, if a bit over-priced. It's hard to imagine a person looking for quality, reasonably neutral cans being disappointed.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Nessuno on 2012-12-17 18:12:54
If you feel like opting for an IEM, my advice is for an Etymotic HF5 (http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/hf5.html). They sell them for about 150 euro, rated impedance is 16 ohm and they are maybe the most neutral and detailed headphone, regardless of the price (excluded the ones of the Etymotic ER4 series, which anyway cost about twice as much).
Consider that with the aid of an equalizer, a neutral headphone with reasonable THD measures can mimic nearly every other sound signature.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-17 19:33:24
All things considered, the HD600 really is a good choice, if a bit over-priced. It's hard to imagine a person looking for quality, reasonably neutral cans being disappointed.


Thanks, it nice to know I'm in the right area. Its just a shame they've become so pricy. I don't mind paying more for quality, but here it feels like the price is artificially inflated by Sennheiser.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: extrabigmehdi on 2012-12-17 20:01:25
All things considered, the HD600 really is a good choice, if a bit over-priced. It's hard to imagine a person looking for quality, reasonably neutral cans being disappointed.


Thanks, it nice to know I'm in the right area. Its just a shame they've become so pricy. I don't mind paying more for quality, but here it feels like the price is artificially inflated by Sennheiser.



The hd600 is often considered one of the most neutral headphone.
However, I  think they are other qualities that makes a good headphone, and for instance the dt-880 is known to be detailed.
The hd600 is probably a good headphone, but I  don't want to let Sennheiser think it was right to raise the prices.
In fact , from what I've understood, Sennheiser didn't exactly raise the prices, but enforced the msrp , i.e  Sennheiser doesn't allow stores to sell a headphone for cheaper than a fixed price.
If you want absolutely the hd600, you could buy a used one at head-fi or elsewhere and save some money.
If you "neutral" above all, the closed brainwavz hm5, was praised for this, and is a relatively cheap closed alternative.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: gregs1104 on 2012-12-18 08:45:21
I have many of the popular brands here--from Cheap Grados to moderate Sennheiser and AKG models--and most of the time when I'm at home I have on my Beyerdynamic phones.  Check out the Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro.  Those do have a detachable cable.  And they have a bass adjustment feature that lets you tune that in particular to your taste.  I haven't heard them in person yet, being relatively new, but they're not too expensive.  (Headroom suggests a large price increasing is coming in 2013)

I thought Sennhesier pricing was reasonable when I bought my HD580 models many years ago.  I don't think I could justify a HD600 nowadays though.  The value just isn't there anymore.

All my portable/in-ear listening is done on the Shure 500-series models I bought a few years ago, forget which one exactly.  Those weren't cheap, but they make me happy to listen to even when I connect them right to my inexpensive portable player.  I had a funny moment recently.  A friend who isn't very into audio wanted to audition new headphone models, was willing to spend a hit $100 to $150 to get better sound.  Her friends were recommending Bose and the like.  We all brought our headphones along for a party to let her hear the options.  She listened to all of them and commented to everyone what she thought.  I got a one-word review:  "wow".
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-18 09:58:43
Would £240 be a reasonable cost for a brand new HD600 ? Its more than it was a few years back but the lowest of the current crop of prices. MSRP is £370.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: evereux on 2012-12-18 10:26:02
I'm gobsmacked at the price hike of the HD600.    I've had mine for several years now (still going strong) and paid ~£120 for them.

I've several sets of headphones and my preference in ascending order: Etymotic ER4P (the most over-rated headphone ever IMO), Shure SE530 / Sennheiser HD25, Sennheiser HD600. I paid the least for the Sennheiser HD600 and they're still my favourite for reasons of comfort as well as sound!
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-18 13:04:59
I'm gobsmacked at the price hike of the HD600.    I've had mine for several years now (still going strong) and paid ~£120 for them.


I guess some of the price hike can be attributed to the pound getting devalued in the last decade, and its buying power isn't what it used to be. Some of it is probably Sennheiser taking advantage of the hype and enforcing their ridiculous MSRP policy.

£240 is just about palatable for a HD600 for me right now. The DT880 Beyers are only 20 quid less in most places. And the Hifimans are certainly pricier. Are the DT880s and the H600s the only neutral headphones out there then ? The Brainwavz HM5 and all its OEM derivatives (in fact I believe the HM5 itself is a Joga/Yoga derivative) look like great value and are supposed to be neutral but I've read about some sort of 'echo' about their sound that keeps making people return them / sell them on.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: extrabigmehdi on 2012-12-18 19:34:07
Are the DT880s and the H600s the only neutral headphones out there then ?


Well, if you have a little bit time, you can see all the assessments done by the website en.goldenears.net.
For each headphone, there's a page for pics, and a page for measurements.
If you look at end of measurements, there's a section called "reviewer's opinion".
On this section, there's two properties rated "treble relative to midrange"
and "bass relative to midrange".  If they are both rated 0, you can consider headphone as neutral.

Here's for instance the link to hd600:
http://en.goldenears.net/8072 (http://en.goldenears.net/8072)

and dt 880:
http://en.goldenears.net/11302 (http://en.goldenears.net/11302)

But neutrality is not all that matters, otherwise how sennheiser could dare to sell the hd800 (bright). ?


Quote
are supposed to be neutral but I've read about some sort of 'echo' about their sound

I  guess it's a kind of flaw that not everyone notice, just like sibilance.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Porcus on 2012-12-18 20:26:06
I own a pair of ER-4's. They don't reach 20Hz, that's for s(h)ure, but they have taught me not to judge in-ears until you have tested them with both foam and flangs.

Otherwise ... I'd suggest to check out Grado (been a few years since I did myself though). Cheap tweaks are discussed around the 'net: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/evalu...dified-ear-pads (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/evaluation-grado-stock-and-modified-ear-pads)
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-18 20:26:27
Are the DT880s and the H600s the only neutral headphones out there then ?


Well, if you have a little bit time, you can see all the assessments done by the website en.goldenears.net.
For each headphone, there's a page for pics, and a page for measurements.
If you look at end of measurements, there's a section called "reviewer's opinion".
On this section, there's two properties rated "treble relative to midrange"
and "bass relative to midrange".  If they are both rated 0, you can consider headphone as neutral.

Here's for instance the link to hd600:
http://en.goldenears.net/8072 (http://en.goldenears.net/8072)

and dt 880:
http://en.goldenears.net/11302 (http://en.goldenears.net/11302)

But neutrality is not all that matters, otherwise how sennheiser could dare to sell the hd800 (bright). ?


Quote
are supposed to be neutral but I've read about some sort of 'echo' about their sound

I  guess it's a kind of flaw that not everyone notice, just like sibilance.


Well the HD600s and the 600ohm Beyers certainly come out neutral !
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: sorabji on 2012-12-18 20:50:36
Hifiman HE500's are very good, save the peak @ ~10K preceeded by a significant dip.  Excellent bass.  A little heavy on the head.

Sennheiser HD600 and 650 are also well worth consideration, bass is the weakest with these.  Very comfortable.  Look for used in good condition.

A sleeper is the Koss ESP-950, (better than the above imo) which can be had for ~$600 if you are patient looking.  Comfortable and lightweight.  Some have reported reliability problems, although I haven't had any and they have a good warranty.

Head Fi is mostly a waste of time.  It's chock full of people obsessed with wire and other similar  assorted woo-woo.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: mzil on 2012-12-18 20:56:19
I own a pair of ER-4's. They don't reach 20Hz, that's for s(h)ure, but they have taught me not to judge in-ears until you have tested them with both foam and flangs.


In addition to plug style, insertion depth and the quality of seal play a part with them. Also, unlike most headphones, ER4's don't have an elevated bass response, however their bass extension makes it to 20 Hz with just a few dB loss and they still has considerable output down to the lower limit of most graphs:

http://www.headphone.com/headphones/etymotic-er-4s.php (http://www.headphone.com/headphones/etymotic-er-4s.php)

There's also different flavors of ER4 and how they differ is specifically in frequency response.

To some listeners their first impression might be "Wow, these have very little bass" and that's indicative of a poor seal. Once corrected, the same listener might say, "Well that's much better now, however there still seems to be more treble and less bass than I'm used to" and that's because they don't artificially raise the bass like almost all other headphones do in the bass, compared to say 1 kHz.

Music is not usually mixed taking the ER4's accurate bass reproduction into account so that's why many dismiss the ER4s as "too bright" and "bass shy".
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Porcus on 2012-12-19 01:35:19
I guess the OP will only be satisfied by the lack of boominess, but the measurements of the ER-4 surprise me.  There are signals which are well audible on other equipment, that I cannot at all hear on my ER-4P pair. (My other headphones are Stax Lambda (not known for boom!), and my loudspeakers are reasonably flat at the bottom, when I get past the resonance hump of my room. I have quite narrow ear canals though, it may be a factor, but certainly not to loose fit.)

Here is a piece of music that will shake some diaphragms for testing.  Don't play loud first time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SqdcrH2pOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SqdcrH2pOE)
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: azoth on 2012-12-20 10:52:31
Thank you all for your replies, you've given me a lot to think about :-)
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2012-12-20 13:21:18
I own a pair of ER-4's. They don't reach 20Hz, that's for s(h)ure, but they have taught me not to judge in-ears until you have tested them with both foam and flangs.


I bought a pair of ER4s some years back and they were also a big disappointment.  It has been several years since I bought any IEMs so I don't know what of the current batch is hot and what is not. Some of the nicest-sounding  IEMs I've ever had were from Futuresonics.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: mzil on 2012-12-21 00:19:49
...the measurements of the ER-4 surprise me.  There are signals which are well audible on other equipment, that I cannot at all hear on my ER-4P pair.


Have you tried them wet?
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Nessuno on 2012-12-21 08:13:41
...the measurements of the ER-4 surprise me.  There are signals which are well audible on other equipment, that I cannot at all hear on my ER-4P pair.


Have you tried them wet?

You mean... the flanges, I suppose!
I have a pair of Etys HF3 (the plugs are the same), and for the fist week after the purchase I thought I had wasted my money. Then, by chance, I found the perfect match: I used the smallest tri-flange plug, which is normally far too small to seal my ear canal, but with the outmost (biggest) flange reversed (as shown in the manual when they explain how to replace them): now I LOVE them! With classical, the deepest bass, say organ pedal or bigger strings, are perfect and so the rest.
And, yes, wetting a little the outer rubber surface eases the sealing process.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: AndyH-ha on 2012-12-21 08:35:11
My experience is based on the HD600 set I own. Maybe there is something wrong with it, but if so it does not show in any other aspect of performance.

I record LPs and cassettes, then clean up the recordings. Primarily I try to get rid of the media defects. Many of the older LPs have pretty high background noise. In particular, older recordings originally made to tape can have very audible tape hiss. Opinions vary on what should be done about this but I know it is generally possible to significantly reduce the hiss without hurting the music, and I find such recordings much more enjoyable without the hiss.

I used my Sennheiser HD600s for some years is some confusion. I processed the tape hiss, and any other HF noise to an inconsequential level on many recordings only to find the hiss still quite pronounced once the recording was on CD and playing on my living room speakers. I got into the habit of writing samples to CD-RW so I could test them on the speakers in order to get adequate NR in the final result.

The headphones were supposed to be so great, it could not be them, so I didn't know what else to do. Then I woke up one day, got a headphone extension cord, and found that outside my computer room, with the door closed, where I could no longer hear the computer fans, I could hear the hiss reasonably well on the headphones.

Then I tried a pair of Sony MDR-V900s. The hiss was considerably louder. The Sonys are closed back, the Sennheisers open back, but my listening position in the hallway seemed more than adequately quiet to accommodate open back phones. When I tried the Sony's in my normal seat near the computer, the hiss was still more audible than it was with the Sennheisers in the hallway where I could not hear the computer. Switching to the Sony's for repair work obviated the need to make test CDs.

On the replaceable cables: I've had trouble with two HD600 cables, in spite of taking pains to route the cables so they don't get pulled, stepped on, or otherwise abused. I had a pair of Audio Technicia phones for 15+ years with no cable problems. Eventually the AT headphones practically collapsed into a pile of dust but the cable was still fine. The AT cable was much heavier (but never a comfort problem) and highly coiled. It was not very long until stretched.  It stretched quite a long distance but never had drooping cable to get caught on things, which probably added significantly to its reliability.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: extrabigmehdi on 2012-12-21 13:06:23
I record LPs and cassettes, then clean up the recordings.[...]
I used my Sennheiser HD600s for some years is some confusion. I processed the tape hiss, and any other HF noise to an inconsequential level on many recordings only to find the hiss still quite pronounced once the recording was on CD and playing on my living room speakers.


The hd600 are often described as "forgiving" , i.e it subdue flaws of bad/old recordings such like hiss in particular. This makes the listening experience more pleasant,
but these headphones are a bad choice if  you work with them for denoising.
Try to get an "unforgiving" headphone instead, such like the k701.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Porcus on 2012-12-21 15:37:51
...the measurements of the ER-4 surprise me.  There are signals which are well audible on other equipment, that I cannot at all hear on my ER-4P pair.


Have you tried them wet?


Oh, your dirty mind ... or was it my own.

I pointed out that the flangs/foams did matter, and I also have molded silicone fittings for them. Especially the latter do require a tight wet fit.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: mzil on 2012-12-21 16:38:26
Oh, your dirty mind ... or was it my own. .

Ha-ha.

I may have worded that oddly.

For people unfamiliar with etymotics, they advise trying them wet. It is mentioned in the manual and this video:

[Considering they felt they needed to make a video, mentioning repeatedly that some people have trouble getting a good seal, and how it weakens the bass.....hmmm...]

etymotic insertion guide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KwXEqe6Gq4)

Perhaps a tell tale test for a good seal is to listen to a 20 Hz tone? If you don't hear it, you don't have a good seal.

Oddly there are reasons to avoid custom ear molds. I have to run out now but I will try to get back to this later. Caio.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: mzil on 2012-12-27 03:31:25
Oddly there are reasons to avoid custom ear molds. I have to run out now but I will try to get back to this later. Ciao.


I looked but couldn't find the article I mentioned. Sorry. Considering Etymotic now seems to promote custom ear molds and provides support in finding an audiologist to take impressions, I can see why they would have reason to yank the article from their extensive library, I had read many years back (1980s?). [I reminds me of how many speaker makers provide bi-wire speakers posts, even though they know it is just audio mythology and woo, but they feel they have to bend to market demands.] Everyone assumes "customized is always better" but this paper I read explained it's actually a mixed bag.
---

I downloaded some sine waves from here and indeed using 30Hz is a good test for ear seal in both ears with my Etymotics:

http://www.realmofexcursion.com/downloads.htm (http://www.realmofexcursion.com/downloads.htm)

I don't recommend 20 Hz because the results are ambiguous since it is the threshold where we no longer hear sound, we feel it. (Pinna motion, hairs on your skin wiggling, and loose clothing flapping. None of which occurs with IEM's!)

I also found a great free app for my iphone (Android support too, I think) which is by far the best manual equalizer control I have ever experienced. I gave a gentle rise to the frequency response below 1 kHz, say +8dB at 32 Hz, and it made my Etymotics sound much fuller and more akin to nearly all the other elevated bass curves we see at those headphone sites which record them using B&K H.A.T.S. , KEMAR, etc. Check it out. Here's the i-device version:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/denon-audio/id520604518?mt=8 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/denon-audio/id520604518?mt=8)

Ignore the silly presets and go straight to manual. Note you can add many more bands (29 or 30 in total, I think) by tapping at a point between two others. You also can drag points off screen to remove them and build a simple "tilt control" with just two. Different curves can be stored as presets.

The flexibility and control is astounding. I think everyone should try it out regardless of headphone brand.

P.S. "Q" (slope) can be controlled by placing bands at different distances from the band of interest, and asymmetrically on its two sides if need be, so in that sense this equalizer is actually more flexible than most parametric equalizers.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Mach-X on 2012-12-27 08:58:19
One thing to remember - music is mixed to be played in a room with speakers which elevates some bass and attenuate upper mid/treble. Perfectly linear headphones might sound "weak" or a little on the "bright" side...which is why most sets have some sort of "smiley" curve. Unless you plan to do some eq after the fact. I use some sennheiser iems and still boost freqs below 40 hz and dip the 4khz band a touch.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: johnb on 2012-12-27 09:43:50
One thing to remember - music is mixed to be played in a room with speakers which elevates some bass and attenuate upper mid/treble. Perfectly linear headphones might sound "weak" or a little on the "bright" side...which is why most sets have some sort of "smiley" curve. Unless you plan to do some eq after the fact. I use some sennheiser iems and still boost freqs below 40 hz and dip the 4khz band a touch.


Or rather use the Meier Crossfeed available with Rockbox 
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Nessuno on 2012-12-27 11:09:23
One thing to remember - music is mixed to be played in a room with speakers

http://www.etymotic.com/technology/hwmra.html (http://www.etymotic.com/technology/hwmra.html)

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=diffuse+field+equalization (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=diffuse+field+equalization)

Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: markanini on 2012-12-27 13:47:51
Diffusie field EQ doesnt really adress Mach-X concern. He's talking about something like a slight downward slope response that's popular among audiophiles. Each to their own but crossfeed does more to bridge the gap between headphone listening vs speakers in the room. It's worth mentioning xnors crossfeed: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=90764 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=90764)
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Nessuno on 2012-12-27 18:20:16
Diffusie field EQ doesnt really adress Mach-X concern. He's talking about something like a slight downward slope response that's popular among audiophiles. Each to their own but crossfeed does more to bridge the gap between headphone listening vs speakers in the room

In fact the first of the links I gave is about a compensation in FR that Etymotic adds in its IEMs to usual DFE curve: "This modification (approximately 5 dB at 10 kHz) is necessary to avoid earphones sounding too bright on commercial recordings."

About crossfeed, I have to say I never found a crossfeed algorithm actually convincing (unfortunately can't try xnor's because I don't use FB2K), at least with decent classical stereo recordings. Maybe only with some early stereo pop recordings from the sixties with excessive left-right separation.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: markanini on 2012-12-27 19:04:02
In fact the first of the links I gave is about a compensation in FR that Etymotic adds in its IEMs to usual DFE curve: "This modification (approximately 5 dB at 10 kHz) is necessary to avoid earphones sounding too bright on commercial recordings."

I agree with the point you made with your links. The way Mach-X talks about it could lead you to think that headphones known to be linear(ER4, 7506) would be bad for listening to music or require EQ-ing which isnt really the case. It also overlooks factors like how they shape or your ears can effect the perceived freq response or in the case of IEMs how good the seal is.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: mzil on 2012-12-27 21:58:59
Oddly there are reasons to avoid custom ear molds. I have to run out now but I will try to get back to this later. Ciao.


I looked but couldn't find the article I mentioned. Sorry. Considering Etymotic now seems to promote custom ear molds and provides support in finding an audiologist to take impressions, I can see why they would have reason to yank the article from their extensive library, I had read many years back (1980s?). [I reminds me of how many speaker makers provide bi-wire speakers posts, even though they know it is just audio mythology and woo, but they feel they have to bend to market demands.] Everyone assumes "customized is always better" but this paper I read explained it's actually a mixed bag.



CORRECTION: I found it! Here it is:

http://www.e-a-r.com/pdf/hearingcons/HP%20FAQ%2015.pdf (http://www.e-a-r.com/pdf/hearingcons/HP%20FAQ%2015.pdf)

P.S. The author has co-written (at least one) scholarly paper with Dr. Killion, Etymotic's founder and chief scientist, so he isn't a nobody. [I haven't read it but here it is, if anyone cares]:
http://www.etymotic.com/publications/erl-0017-1989.pdf (http://www.etymotic.com/publications/erl-0017-1989.pdf)
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Stop the Noise on 2012-12-28 04:31:41
I've owned a number of different cans over the years and the best way to pick one is listen to a few in your price range with music you're familiar with.

Everyone's ear is 'different' and we have different tastes so you might prefer a certain 'sound'.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Nessuno on 2012-12-28 17:51:38
Everyone's ear is 'different' and we have different tastes so you might prefer a certain 'sound'.

That's obvious, but starting from a neutral one (i.e. designed to be perceived flat) is easier to equalize it to better suit your tastes than to fight against a "bump" somewhere in the FR you might not like in the first place.

And your tastes might even change slightly from day to day or from track to track.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Stop the Noise on 2012-12-28 21:58:59
Everyone's ear is 'different' and we have different tastes so you might prefer a certain 'sound'.

That's obvious, but starting from a neutral one (i.e. designed to be perceived flat) is easier to equalize it to better suit your tastes than to fight against a "bump" somewhere in the FR you might not like in the first place.

And your tastes might even change slightly from day to day or from track to track.


Agree with all your points Nessuno.

Auditioning is still important to 'hear' a wrong fit.
Title: High end headphone advice needed !
Post by: Nessuno on 2012-12-29 10:14:44
Auditioning is still important to 'hear' a wrong fit.

Right, but unfortunately not always possible: where I live, for example, you can't even buy the great majority of current headphone industry production in a real shop, let alone listening to them.