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Topic: USB transient noise with external DAC (Read 26901 times) previous topic - next topic
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USB transient noise with external DAC

My system is as follows:

Intel NUC (Realtek ALC283), Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC, B&K EX 4420 power amp (2x200 @ 8 ohms), B&W speakers.

If I use the USB input on the Modi during boot, shutdown and wake from sleep there is a very loud pop coming through the speakers.  There are no problems while playing music.  The volume of the pop is in the "will it blow my speakers" range.

This problem is also observed with a MacBook Pro (Late 2013, Haswell).  The Mac was on battery power at the time.  I only verified the start up and shutdown noise, not the wake up.  My conclusion is these kinds of USB transient noises exist in most computers and the problem is somewhere else.

Workaround #1:  The Modi has a Toslink imput.  That gets rid of USB and the noise which comes with it.  I can't even begin to detect a difference in sound quality between Toslink and USB.  The downside is optical signals originate with the ALC283 which can't do 88.2K and optical 192K is not reliable (verified).

Workaround #2:  The Modi is connected directly to a high gain/high current amplifier with no input gain control.  I put an old NAD preamp between the amp and DAC and set the volume control for my typical listening levels with the volume on the foobar2000 app at maximum.  The transient pops don't go away but they are attenuated about 15db.  The noise level is best described as a minor annoyance.

Questions:

Is anyone in this forum using a USB DAC hooked up to an amplifier or integrated amplifier and having a similar experience?

Are there any other workarounds?  I have read a lot of comments about the Modi and have not seen this complaint.  Most are from headphone users who probably take them off to avoid transient noises and besides their headphone amp has a volume control.  Once attenuated the USB pops are still audible, so I am surprised nobody has mentioned them.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #1 –
More...  I set the Mac up (on battery power) and connected to the preamp (plugged into a different AC circuit than the modi) through Modi via USB.  Using the headphone amp in the preamp I verified there are no pops going into or out of sleep, but the boot and shutdown transient pops are louder than in Windows.  The best I can say is the Modi just passes these transients through when on USB.  Lucky I have the Toslink option.  I wish there was a way to get rid of the noise when waking from sleep on the NUC.  I tried all kinds of bios settings and none helped.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #2 –
Quote from: eagleray on
If I use the USB input on the Modi during boot, shutdown and wake from sleep there is a very loud pop coming through the speakers.  There are no problems while playing music.  The volume of the pop is in the "will it blow my speakers" range.


Request an RMA or refund.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #3 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: eagleray on
If I use the USB input on the Modi during boot, shutdown and wake from sleep there is a very loud pop coming through the speakers.  There are no problems while playing music.  The volume of the pop is in the "will it blow my speakers" range.


Request an RMA or refund.

Are you sure it is defective?  It works very well on Toslink.  If I send it back there is a 15% restocking fee.  That and 2 way shipping is $45.  Can you suggest a USB DAC in the same price range that does 88.2 and 192 without any problems?

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #4 –
I agree with saratoga, sounds like your unit has a fault.

Have you contacted Schiit audio support?
Try and get Schiit to RMA the unit and get a replacement.
Who are you and how did you get in here ?
I'm a locksmith, I'm a locksmith.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #5 –
Quote from: A_Man_Eating_Duck on
I agree with saratoga, sounds like your unit has a fault.

Have you contacted Schiit audio support?
Try and get Schiit to RMA the unit and get a replacement.

I have some contact with Schitt, but I think the tech does not fully understand the problem.  Will try again tomorrow.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #6 –
Quote from: eagleray on
My system is as follows:

Intel NUC (Realtek ALC283), Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC, B&K EX 4420 power amp (2x200 @ 8 ohms), B&W speakers.

If I use the USB input on the Modi during boot, shutdown and wake from sleep there is a very loud pop coming through the speakers.  There are no problems while playing music.  The volume of the pop is in the "will it blow my speakers" range.

This problem is also observed with a MacBook Pro (Late 2013, Haswell).  The Mac was on battery power at the time.  I only verified the start up and shutdown noise, not the wake up.  My conclusion is these kinds of USB transient noises exist in most computers and the problem is somewhere else.

Workaround #1:  The Modi has a Toslink imput.  That gets rid of USB and the noise which comes with it.  I can't even begin to detect a difference in sound quality between Toslink and USB.  The downside is optical signals originate with the ALC283 which can't do 88.2K and optical 192K is not reliable (verified).

Workaround #2:  The Modi is connected directly to a high gain/high current amplifier with no input gain control.  I put an old NAD preamp between the amp and DAC and set the volume control for my typical listening levels with the volume on the foobar2000 app at maximum.  The transient pops don't go away but they are attenuated about 15db.  The noise level is best described as a minor annoyance.

Questions:

Is anyone in this forum using a USB DAC hooked up to an amplifier or integrated amplifier and having a similar experience?

Are there any other workarounds?  I have read a lot of comments about the Modi and have not seen this complaint.  Most are from headphone users who probably take them off to avoid transient noises and besides their headphone amp has a volume control.  Once attenuated the USB pops are still audible, so I am surprised nobody has mentioned them.

The power management that you've specified in your OS settings is probably totally removing power from the the USB interface to the DAC  when the computer goes into suspend mode.

When you use the TOSLink input, the DAC is no doubt receiving power by some other means than the USB interface, and so, no pops.

Given that it is well known that the high bitrate formats that you can't use with TOSLINK have no audible benefit,  it will look to many around here that you are making life hard for yourself for no logical reason.

It may be possible that if you use an external power supply when you are running in USB mode, the pops may go away.

Another work around includes changing the power settings on your computer to avoid the suspend mode, or avoid dropping the power to USB devices when the computer does go into suspend mode (if possible).

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: eagleray on
My system is as follows:

Intel NUC (Realtek ALC283), Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC, B&K EX 4420 power amp (2x200 @ 8 ohms), B&W speakers.

If I use the USB input on the Modi during boot, shutdown and wake from sleep there is a very loud pop coming through the speakers.  There are no problems while playing music.  The volume of the pop is in the "will it blow my speakers" range.

This problem is also observed with a MacBook Pro (Late 2013, Haswell).  The Mac was on battery power at the time.  I only verified the start up and shutdown noise, not the wake up.  My conclusion is these kinds of USB transient noises exist in most computers and the problem is somewhere else.

Workaround #1:  The Modi has a Toslink imput.  That gets rid of USB and the noise which comes with it.  I can't even begin to detect a difference in sound quality between Toslink and USB.  The downside is optical signals originate with the ALC283 which can't do 88.2K and optical 192K is not reliable (verified).

Workaround #2:  The Modi is connected directly to a high gain/high current amplifier with no input gain control.  I put an old NAD preamp between the amp and DAC and set the volume control for my typical listening levels with the volume on the foobar2000 app at maximum.  The transient pops don't go away but they are attenuated about 15db.  The noise level is best described as a minor annoyance.

Questions:

Is anyone in this forum using a USB DAC hooked up to an amplifier or integrated amplifier and having a similar experience?

Are there any other workarounds?  I have read a lot of comments about the Modi and have not seen this complaint.  Most are from headphone users who probably take them off to avoid transient noises and besides their headphone amp has a volume control.  Once attenuated the USB pops are still audible, so I am surprised nobody has mentioned them.

The power management that you've specified in your OS settings is probably totally removing power from the the USB interface to the DAC  when the computer goes into suspend mode.

When you use the TOSLink input, the DAC is no doubt receiving power by some other means than the USB interface, and so, no pops.

Given that it is well known that the high bitrate formats that you can't use with TOSLINK have no audible benefit,  it will look to many around here that you are making life hard for yourself for no logical reason.

It may be possible that if you use an external power supply when you are running in USB mode, the pops may go away.

Another work around includes changing the power settings on your computer to avoid the suspend mode, or avoid dropping the power to USB devices when the computer does go into suspend mode (if possible).


The Modi 2 Uber has an external power supply.  I tried every USB power setting imaginable and also tried using the charging port.  Nothing helped.  Most power problems with USB powered dac's involve disconnecting, failure to connect or static during playback.  Either the DAC here is failing to filter out something that it should filter out, or when it handshakes with the computer over USB it is making a noise.  I researched this purchase and could not find anyone with this problem.  Playback was satisfactory.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #8 –
What length usb cable are you using? nothing excessivly long?

I had USB detection issues with a AudioEngine D1 on my main computer when i used any 1m cable, it however worked fine on my laptop with the same cable. If i used the suppiled 0.6m usb cable it worked fine.
Who are you and how did you get in here ?
I'm a locksmith, I'm a locksmith.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #9 –
Quote from: A_Man_Eating_Duck on
What length usb cable are you using? nothing excessivly long?

I had USB detection issues with a AudioEngine D1 on my main computer when i used any 1m cable, it however worked fine on my laptop with the same cable. If i used the suppiled 0.6m usb cable it worked fine.

I used a 3' cable and there were no detection issues.  There were no interruptions when music was playing.  The problem were very loud transient pops during boot, shutdown (NUC and MC) and NUC, wake from sleep (NUC only). 

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #10 –
Quote from: eagleray on

The Modi 2 Uber has an external power supply. 

Which then may be intepreted as meaning that the transient is not due to the DAC becoming totally unpowered. Removing the power from the interface seems to be enough to cause a transient at the output, which suggests deficient design or construction.

Quote
I tried every USB power setting imaginable and also tried using the charging port.  Nothing helped. 

Even turning off the suspend feature for the whole PC?  If you are not running it off battery power, why uses suspend at all if it is causing trouble?

Also, what's the problem with using the DAC's TOSLINK input?

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #11 –
I suspect that the turn-on pop may be the OS initializing the USB device.  I have similar on both the several laptops and the OrangePi I'm currently using. My solution was to simply leave the Pi on all the time.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: eagleray on

The Modi 2 Uber has an external power supply.

Which then may be intepreted as meaning that the transient is not due to the DAC becoming totally unpowered. Removing the power from the interface seems to be enough to cause a transient at the output, which suggests deficient design or construction.

Quote
I tried every USB power setting imaginable and also tried using the charging port.  Nothing helped.

Even turning off the suspend feature for the whole PC?  If you are not running it off battery power, why uses suspend at all if it is causing trouble?

Also, what's the problem with using the DAC's TOSLINK input?


Not sure what you are suggesting.  If I let the computer run 24/7 the pop would rarely happen, but the problem is still there.  Allowing the computer to sleep when not in use results in a longer life for the hard drive.   Toslink did not support 88.2 or 192k.  It also uses the weird Realtek 44.1 to 48 resample method where every 12th (or so) frame is skipped resulting in 3900 blank frames per second.  I don't know if this is audible.  Then again, how different is the external DAC from the ALC 283.  There was also a click when music started playing on foobar2000.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #13 –
Quote from: jayplesset on
I suspect that the turn-on pop may be the OS initializing the USB device.  I have similar on both the several laptops and the OrangePi I'm currently using. My solution was to simply leave the Pi on all the time.

How loud were the transients?  Was it a little puff or a gunshot?  I can live with a little puff, although if it is also when the computer wakes that is annoying.   I guess it is a matter of degree.  This issue does not get discussed much because probably the transient noises are not loud for most systems.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #14 –
 "Toslink did not support 88.2 or 192k"

The Toslink standard says 24/96 max
However, modern hardware can do better.
24/176 runs reliable on my system, 24/192 is unstable.

88.2 is probably a limitation in the onboard audio and/or Windows.
It looks like the Modi does nothing to shield the DAC from noise over the USB.
http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/computer-activity-can-impact-dac-performance.22/
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #15 –
Quote from: eagleray on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: eagleray on

 I tried every USB power setting imaginable and also tried using the charging port.  Nothing helped.

Even turning off the suspend feature for the whole PC?  If you are not running it off battery power, why uses suspend at all if it is causing trouble?

Also, what's the problem with using the DAC's TOSLINK input?


Not sure what you are suggesting.

You are aware that it is a simple matter to turn Suspend completely off for the whole PC, right?

Quote
  If I let the computer run 24/7 the pop would rarely happen, but the problem is still there.

If there  is a simple user setting that alleviates the problem, where's the beef?

Quote
Allowing the computer to sleep when not in use results in a longer life for the hard drive.

False on several counts.

One thing that falsifies the above statement is that HDD power is controlled by completely different settings than Suspend for the whole computer. So, you can have the HDD go to sleep in a manner of speaking, without putting the whole rest of the PC to sleep.

The second fact that falsifies the above statement is that HDD's are designed to spin indefinitely, and can actually receive more wear and have their life shortened far more seriously by turning them on and off too many times.

Quote
Toslink did not support 88.2 or 192k. 

So what? DBTs show that those formats have no inherent sonic advantages or even spund different.

Quote
It also uses the weird Realtek 44.1 to 48 resample method where every 12th (or so) frame is skipped resulting in 3900 blank frames per second.

So what? Where are the DBTs & technical measurements  show that this is actually an audible problem? Looks like another problem that scares some small boys but nobody thinks is actually serious enough to test properly.

Quote
I don't know if this is audible.

The high sample rates have been tested many times, and found to be no problem at all.

The frame dropping is probably not a problem. Its not a problem until someone shows it is, unless we are going back to the dark ages and cowering in dark corners every time someone makes up a hypothesis that they (and everbody else) don't think is worth their effort to give  a good test.

Quote
  Then again, how different is the external DAC from the ALC 283.

Depends on the facts of the matter - where is the relevant evidence - relevant technical measurements and good listening tests? Seeing none, it would again seem that nobody thinks its enough of a problem to be worth spending maybe an hour testing.

Quote
There was also a click when music started playing on foobar2000.

Really? How big of a click? Maybe the click was due to slipshod editing of the audio file.

This PC I'm typing on has a Realtek ALC887 chip. No problems with FOOBAR2000.

I have a box of some of the best pro audio interfaces ever made (Lynx, M-Audio, eMu, Focusright, etc.) in the next room, which I would plug right in if there were an audible problem.


Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #16 –
I really love it when someone asks me what the problem is and then takes issue with every word I say while lecturing me on computer hardware and other irrelevant speculations.  However, the one time he agrees with me, on the need to have an external DAC in the first place, the quote is missing.

Perhaps the solution to the problem is leaving the computer off all the time.  That makes as much sense as leaving it on all the time.  Besides, it would keep me off the internet.  I could take a walk, smell the flowers and hear the birds sing.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Roseval on
"Toslink did not support 88.2 or 192k"

The Toslink standard says 24/96 max
However, modern hardware can do better.
24/176 runs reliable on my system, 24/192 is unstable.

88.2 is probably a limitation in the onboard audio and/or Windows.
It looks like the Modi does nothing to shield the DAC from noise over the USB.
http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/computer-activity-can-impact-dac-performance.22/


88.2 is indeed a limitation of the onboard DAC.  I tested 192 and it did not work reliably.  It could be silly, but why buy an external DAC and run it on Toslink when that interface keeps one within the limitations of the onboard DAC?  The real issue here is the USB connection was making a very loud noise when it connected or disconnected.  Even with the volume turned down about 15 db it was a loud thump.  I could leave the computer on forever, but eventually it has to be rebooted for updates and the like.  It's a pain to have to remember to turn the amplifier off for that every time.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #18 –
Quote from: eagleray on

88.2 is indeed a limitation of the onboard DAC.  I tested 192 and it did not work reliably.  It could be silly, but why buy an external DAC and run it on Toslink when that interface keeps one within the limitations of the onboard DAC? 

Using an external DAC connected via TOSLINK avoids just about all of the innumerable potential limitations of using the onboard DAC which is completely bypasssed.

Quote
The real issue here is the USB connection was making a very loud noise when it connected or disconnected.  Even with the volume turned down about 15 db it was a loud thump.  I could leave the computer on forever, but eventually it has to be rebooted for updates and the like.  It's a pain to have to remember to turn the amplifier off for that every time.

The discussion seems to be caught in a circle. There is an available work-around involving the SP/DIF output of the PC's audio interface.

Does someone need to don a Cardinal's robe and bless you for spending the money that is apparently burning a hole in your pocket on a new DAC? ;-)

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #19 –
Arnold, what is your problem?  You have more unsubstantiated opinions than someone running for President.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #20 –
Quote from: eagleray on
Arnold, what is your problem?  You have more unsubstantiated opinions than someone running for President.

Please prove that claim since it raises exactly the issue of substantiation of opinions.

Please provide just  one unsubstantiated opinion of mine from this thread..

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: eagleray on
Arnold, what is your problem?  You have more unsubstantiated opinions than someone running for President.



Please prove that claim since it raises exactly the issue of substantiation of opinions.

Please provide just  one unsubstantiated opinion of mine from this thread..

All of them.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #22 –
I don't understand why people are suggesting workarounds for what is obviously broken hardware.  The device is generating a dangerous result during normal operation of a PC.  This is not his problem, just RMA it. 

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #23 –
Quote from: saratoga on
I don't understand why people are suggesting workarounds for what is obviously broken hardware.  The device is generating a dangerous result during normal operation of a PC.  This is not his problem, just RMA it. 

I sent it back yesterday.  At a minimum I will lose $25 for two way shipping.  There is a restocking fee of $22.50, but it will be waived if the manufacturer agrees the unit was defective, but they are already trying to game that.

Even without an external DAC my NUC makes a few barely audible thuds when rebooting.  That is when plugged directly into a 200 w power amp with no input attenuation.  Using USB with the Modi turned elevated the noise to speaker blowing levels.  The tech at Schlitt ventured the lack of an input control was the problem, but when I put one in line and set it for my normal listening level (-15 db) the transient noises were still very loud.  It was something line bouncing a basketball on the floor of an indoor court.  That can't be normal, and if it was everyone would be complaining about it, but I can't find the complaints, so it must not be normal.

Re: USB transient noise with external DAC

Reply #24 –
Quote from: eagleray on
I sent it back yesterday.  At a minimum I will lose $25 for two way shipping.  There is a restocking fee of $22.50, but it will be waived if the manufacturer agrees the unit was defective, but they are already trying to game that.

Sounds like a good company to buy products from.

Quote from: eagleray on
Even without an external DAC my NUC makes a few barely audible thuds when rebooting.  That is when plugged directly into a 200 w power amp with no input attenuation.  Using USB with the Modi turned elevated the noise to speaker blowing levels.  The tech at Schlitt ventured the lack of an input control was the problem, but when I put one in line and set it for my normal listening level (-15 db) the transient noises were still very loud.  It was something line bouncing a basketball on the floor of an indoor court.  That can't be normal, and if it was everyone would be complaining about it, but I can't find the complaints, so it must not be normal.

When you set a clock on a DAC you usually mute the line out amplifier so that all the glitching while the circuit synchronizes is blocked.  It sounds like that isn't happened for whatever reason.