Just wanted to say the more I use Cases's simple Meier Crossfeed component, the happier I am! It's the simplest, quickest to setup, and best sounding of all the different Crossfeed components and VST plugins I have tried. I use HD600's (fed by Crookwood mastering DAC and amp) with the Crossfeed component set to 4. It's a pretty subtle change but just perfect for getting that "outside your head" feeling away, without any detrimental effect on the music. Definitely feels more like speakers, definitely sounds more natural, and definitely helps with listening fatigue.
Just wanted to plug it a bit, as I feel it's so good!
Case, would you like to talk a little bit more about exactly what it's doing? Is it just mixing some L into R and R into L (essentially just "monoing" the stereo image a bit), or are EQ and delay also involved?
You can read the theory behind this crossfeed from its author here (http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm). I can't take any credit other than turning people's work into a foobar2000 component.
Thanks, was reading that article earlier, after I posted. Can you tell me what the different settings from 1 to 10 are doing, are they just an "amount" control? I tend to find I like it on 3 or 4 the most, with my HD600s.
I downloaded and installed the plugin, was prompted that foobar would need to re-start, which it did, but I don't see any controls to activate or use it. I see it in my list of installed components. The documentation page on line seems empty. How do I use it?
my guess is that it would appear on the DSP manager page in the main playback preferences.
my guess is that it would appear on the DSP manager page in the main playback preferences.
I just tried this with my Beyer DT880's and found it pleasing. I'll probably do some more listening. Thanks!
my guess is that it would appear on the DSP manager page in the main playback preferences.
Thanks. From there I was able to move it from the available to active DSPs and configure the user selectable level, from 1 to 10 , but is this the
normal way to use this control with no visual indicator it is active or way to control it from the main screen? Is level 1 effectively the same as bypassed? Sorry, I'm new to using this stuff.
DSPs don't generally have UI elements, mzil. The built-in equalizer is an exception. This DSP is always altering the signal when it's in the active DSP list. If you are testing it with speakers you probably won't hear any change. Speakers already naturally do what the DSP simulates.
At level one there's only very little crossfeed between the channels and this should match the standard mode in the hardware implementation. As the level is increased the crossfeed between the channels increases linearly. I don't know how closely it matches the hardware version but it seems good enough to me. Somewhere in the half way of the level slider the effect seems very close to the strong mode samples on Meier Audio's site.
Thanks Case! The more I listen the more I like it, but am finding I am gradually turning it down, started liking it on 5, then 4, and now really digging 3 and 2, just enough to get the "outside/inside your really wide head" feeling away, whilst still maintaining a nice stereo width. Psycho-acoustically it REALLY appears to throw the image forward in front of you, just like a pair of speakers. Very cool!
At level one there's only very little crossfeed between the channels
Thanks, Case. Having an actual "0" level on that slider would be nifty, where you have effectively bypassed it even though the DSP itself is still actively in the loop, much like almost all equalizers can be set to "flat" instantly (or at the very least all the sliders can be put to 0 dB gain manually) for quick, A/B comparative purposes.
Another feature request I have would be for a numerical value (option) instead of just some arbitray 1-10 scale. Say, " X dB reduction of channel separation, re. 1 kHz" even if that's perhaps actually an overly simplistic representation of what is occurring.
I like it's simplicity, please don't go feature creeping! It just works and works so well, no need to change anything, and incredibly easy to Bypass or A/B by switching from "Active" to "Available" in the DSP Manager.
...easy to Bypass or A/B by switching from "Active" to "Available" in the DSP Manager.
True, it seems to save the configuration when you do that. I don't think all DSP's do.
Case, are you using the original Standard version of the Meier Crossfeed algorithm, or the Extended version, as mentioned here:
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm (http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm)
Despite what I said yesterday, it might be cool to be able to switch between them!
There also seem to be various "bass enhanced" versions discussed too:
http://headwize.com/?page_id=774 (http://headwize.com/?page_id=774)
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm (http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm)
Or are they just the same as the Extended version?
Once again thanks, this component has been truly appreciated here over the last few days!
If you are testing it with speakers you probably won't hear any change. Speakers already naturally do what the DSP simulates.
Without invoking TOS#8, I have become aware of forgetting to disable the plugin whilst "doing" a speaker listening session.
Indeed a great plugin, thank you
Me too, kept wondering why either Elephant no longer stopped ISPs with OS engaged, or my RME Digicheck meter had suddenly become over-sensitive to ISPs. I had of course left the Meier Crossfeed filter in for about a week of FB2K speaker listening, without realising! Lowering the output volume digitally by about a dB cures it. Almost as bad as when you are making EQ settings for ten minutes before realising it's in Bypass...
It's the simplest, quickest to setup, and best sounding of all the different Crossfeed components and VST plugins I have tried.
As this opinion should be subjective, i add mine experience as well. The only "near-realistic" feeling of listening with speakers i could only achieve with xfeed (xnor) and VST TB Isone (J. Breebaart), Case's
component comes not even close. You've to use higher quality headphones and hours of listening of various genres to adjust them properly, but the result is uncomparable to everything else I've tried before,
IMHO. xfeed is excellent plugin, i hope xnor didn't forget it and will improve it further with more features.
I didn't like the xnor one a few months back when I tried a lot of them out. Seem to remember it being very fiddly to set up. I will give it another go on your recommendation though! I do really like the simplicity and sound of Case's Meier one. Horses for courses I guess.
Why would I need to use higher quality headphones to get my current headphones (which I am very happy with and have no intention of upgrading) sounding better? That seems Bass Ackwards to me... Just sayin'!
Not tried Isone but I should as TB plugins are great and I use his Dither every day, but I remember it being a bit of pain to get VST plugins working in FB2K.
At the end of the day, the Case one does what it says on the tin, and sounds great doing it, in my humble opinion of course.
As every head/ears are of different size and shape, solutions like M. Rhoades's Crossfeed, Case's plugin or BS2B with no adjustable shape of attenuated frequency spectrum of one channel mixed to another, are not universal for everybody. The two i mentioned before are capable of doing this to some degree, but you've to spend a time to setup them.
In general, better headphones with near-flat frequency response discover feeling differences between crossfeeders easier than cheap crap, but I didn't write you need one.
Case, are you using the original Standard version of the Meier Crossfeed algorithm, or the Extended version, as mentioned here:
I believe it's the extended version based on what the person who converted the hardware design to C code has written. But frankly the math behind the operation isn't too clear to me.
jaro1, crossfeed doesn't try to simulate speaker sound. It only fixes the unnaturally large stereo separation of headphones. Typical crossfeeds always alter the sound beyond recognition. This one doesn't.
jaro1, crossfeed doesn't try to simulate speaker sound. It only fixes the unnaturally large stereo separation of headphones. Typical crossfeeds always alter the sound beyond recognition. This one doesn't.
A little strange explanation.. Your component mixes attenuated frequency spectrum of each channel to another one with very similar shape BS2B plugin has. Both alter the sound beyond recognition, imo.
To live up meaning of words "fixing unnaturaly large stereo separation of headphones" maybe just narrowing stereo field without mixing (izotope ozone plugin for winamp/wmp) or
mixing just attenuated but complete channel to another (skipyrich's channel mixer) should be enough. but such implementations don't work for me at all.
That is just play with meanings of words, only designs and goals/expectations of plugin developers/users is what matters here. By direct comparison of many implementations i came to conclusion,
that right "stereo speaker listening simulation" plugins with not simplified design and more setting options, give me pleasant and "near-natural" listening experience with headphones
(my head/ears/headphones!). From all fb2k plugins known to me, just xfeed after correct setup meets this for me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for all you guys/developers here at HA forum and look forward to every new creation or improvement in areas i'm interested in.
I've to strongly revise my comments favouring xfeed above Case's crossfeed. After extensive testing of various genres for couple of weeks with some full-size open ref. headphones and loudspeakers listening sessions I'm concerned to state I was completelly wrong. I was able to reach suboptimal settings on both components and the latter one was much better in every aspect (frequencies degradation, sources localization etc..).
I didn't have access to better headphones before and jumped to incorrect conclusions, what I'm sorry about.
There you go! :) I was using HD600s all along (and still am), and in all my tests over the period of a few months back then, I found Case's Crossfeed to be the most pleasing sounding when A/Bing with the others (and I still do!) I've now reduced the setting even further and only ever use it on 1 or 2. There's a clear difference (and for the positive) with it engaged, compared to bypassed, when listening on cans. So it still works well for me and have seen no need to try anything else for a long time now. Highly recommended!
Contrary to what Case wrote few comments above, the author of software conversion presumably used the math corresponding to standard crossfeed version in this component. He doesn't have plans to change the software code to simulate extended version as he probably doesn't know the PCB layout differences with the standard version circuit.
Its a shame as there are advantages in better positioning of sources in acoustic soundstage according to Jan Meier. Laicly, according the pictures from Meier's website it doesn't look for such drastic code change (extending relative amplitude and inter-aural delay into higher frequencies), but it probably is..
Are there any plans on making a vst version of this plugin so that it can be used with jriver or any other players/audio production software supporting vst?
I had to be once again more cautious in my expressions comparing xfeed vs mc ::), its really not that straightforward. While mc has advantage at maintaining freq responce to much higher degree, it really isn't fundamentally aimed as speakers simulator as meaning that it's out of head (front-rear space) effect isn't close to xfeed ::), what is it's (xfeed) biggest strength.
According to what is expected, one would prefer one or the other, for me optimal is at combining the math of both components together. Question is which one'd be easier to modify to achieve this effect.
Yeah, that doesn't really bother me as I'm not looking for a crossfeed plugin to "sound like speakers", I have a pair of ATCs for that! ;) I really just want something that is going to take that "stretched inside my head" feeling away from my HD600 headphones, and the Meier Crossfeed does that really well on either 1 or 2 settings. I'm not really into the whole idea of "speaker virtualisation" etc., which is why I've never found things like TB Isone of any use, or to sound any good. Especially things that add reverb, I just hate the sound and idea of it. Want speakers, use speakers, cos no amount of artificial reverb is gonna sound authentic.
Maybe I'll have another look at XFeed now though!
For users with absolute fidelity as top priority, crossfeeds are usually components they try to avoid and "m.c." is likely the only digestible one for them. Counterparts don't care about disadvantages of all those 3D enhancers and Dolby Headphone effects and just enjoy what they hear.
I find myself near "m.c." with less fidelity-strict approach of stereo speaker simulation. xfeed with "natural crossfeed" ideas of "m.c." in simplistic terms crossfeed applied just to off-center instrument placements or m.c. with more customizable parameters, would be my components of choice.
From what you wrote, just stay with m.c..
I regret there seems no more interest from developers themselves, just few user comments/laments :-( but anyway, i'm very grateful to Xnor, Case and Boris for their components.
I'd love a VST version too, for when I'm doing audio work on headphones.
I also recently find myself wishing for a setting between 1 and 2. 1 is still a little too wide, 2 works great on most things, but I reckon somewhere in between would suit most material. Any chance of an update?
New version available!
Case, thanks for this great component, was using bs2b before and i really prefer this :3
Thank you, this is just fab! :)
So the old "1" is now "10" and "2" is 20, right? So good to be able to have exactly the in-between setting I wanted ("15" in the new version, I think?)
That's correct, darkflame23.
Shinsekai beat me to answering while I was trying to find how to add attachment...
I'm a VST newbie but I tried putting something together. First VST plugin of this DSP is attached. It's made with SDK version 2.4 and it seems to work at least in Audition.
Oh, all my dreams are coming true, thank you so much Shinsekai and Case! Listeing to Pink Floyd's "Meddle" on my HD600s right now as I type this, with it set to 15, and a custom EQ curve in TDR SlickEQ M, just perfect! Will be happy to beta test the VST version as it'll get used a LOT during late night mastering sessions when I can't crank the ATCs!
Can we share the link for the VST, or would you prefer I point people here?
The link on my site's temp dir is temporary. I uploaded it as an attachment to my earlier post until I figure out where to put it.
Coolio, just trying it out in AudioMulch, working fine, no crashes or weird behaviour so far.
Case, is the plugin prone to clipping?
I wonder how much I have to turn the volume down in FB2K to prevent clipping.
I imagine that in the worst case it will double the signal amplitude in the other channel, which would give -6dB as the safest pre-amp setting.
Done a lot of research into this. Yes, the crossfeed plug will clip if the source file is very close to 0dBfs (99.9% of music these days), and in my experiments I needed to turn the worst offenders down about 4-5dB in order to prevent actual clipping, and inter-sample peaks. I put a gain plugin at -6dB in the chain before Case's plug, and forget about it, but it might be nice if this feature was built in. Any chance of that for the next version?
I checked my entire FLAC library and found the highest peak difference to be +7.12 dB with crossfeed strength at maximum. With the default strength 10 the track peak increased by 1.72 dB and with strength 20 the increase was +2.6 dB.
Using ReplayGain is not only smart for fixing volume differences between albums or tracks but also because it solves almost all clipping worries. This worst offender track for example has album gain -11.552052 dB and track gain -11.821412 dB.
I don't think the crossfeed component should include any clipping preventions. There's nothing it can do that would be as good as the Advanced Limiter DSP that comes with foobar2000. And you should only use the limiter as a last step in the DSP chain.
Thanks Case. I never have the Crossfeed above 20, and the overs are far fewer at lower settings, I think. I don't use ReplayGain (mostly listen to albums and adjust levels by hand), but I'll take another look at the Advanced Limiter. I always put dither last in the chain, as am presuming Crossfeed works in 32 or 64 bit float, but my converters are fixed 24bit (I know there are huge debates about whether one should dither from 64 or 32 to 24, or from floating to fixed point, but it's just the way I always do it in my mastering chain).
Hi Case. I just wanted to say thanks. I compared your xfeed with Redline Monitor, TB Isone, Head-fit and VnoPhone. By far I like yours most. I am using it in conjunction with Sonarworks Reference 3 and VstHost. Headphones are Beyerdynamics DT880Pro. Setting is at 25.
Hi,
Does anyone know if this is just a -13dB low shelf filter in the 'difference' component of/ between the two channels?
I've looked at the page that explains it but I can't see how that corresponds to the RC circuit on that page.
Case will need to provide info on how he coded it. It's still the only crossfeed plugin I've found that sounds natural.
I just knew about this plugin today while searching for crossfeed and binaural plugins and I could use some help if you don't mind:
I see there's just a fader from 0 to 100, and that most of you people use between 10 and 25, so what is the best number to emulate two speakers set in an typical equilateral triangle way?
There is no exact figure, just move the fader until it sounds closest to two speakers set in an equilateral triangle way.
The problem is that I don't have (and never had) speakers, so I thought anyone here could help me on this matter.
No plugin or settings can make headphones sound like speakers. The purpose is to only reduce channel separation without altering the sound. If you have music that sounds annoying as only one ear hears certain instruments, tweak the mixing strength until the separation is no longer annoying and leave it there.
. . . tweak the mixing strength until the separation is no longer annoying and leave it there.
Got it, thanks.
Hi there,
I am looking for a 64bit Meyer Crossfeed VST plugin which I could use with the latest Equalizer Apo version.
(I always receive the error that the version which could be downloaded here is 32bit and a 64bit dll is required.)
Does anyone know where I could find such a version?
Thanks a lot.
Cheers
I made a 64-bit version in October last year and it can be downloaded from http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/temp/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/temp/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip). When I made it I tested it in various VST hosts and while it worked fine in others, Equalizer APO crashed if one tried to access configuration. This component relies on the host to draw the sliders it needs and it looked like EqAPO didn't support that.
Thanks.
I found out that the Peace GUI EqAPO has a MeierCrossfeed functionality.
You can change the Strength parameter in Equalizer APO by editing the command. Note that a space must be appended by enclosing it in double quotes because the current plugin expects it. The value is 0.1 by default and has a range of 0 to 1.
Example command
VSTPlugin: Library MeierCrossfeed.dll "Strength " 0.1
Hey guys, I'm new to headphones but not to hi-fi. I really like the crossfeed idea. Does Case's Meier Crossfeed tool work with Audirvana? I'm using Tidal as my source and Audirvana is the only player that works with it.
I just downloaded the zip file. I must be completely ignorant, I don't know how to use this. A window popped up with a bunch of code and it says at the top : This program cannot be run in DOS mode.
How do I get this plugin to work?
Did you download the FB2K component, or the VST plugin version? The component you should should just be able to double click and it will automatically install, for the VST version you'll need a VST plugin host such as a DAW. No need to install VST version into FB2K when there's a native component version available.
I really love 20 on my Etymotic ER4SR, I can finally listen to metal without it sound like wall of mush fighting for space.
May I ask for the source code? (the part which does the actual processing)
I'm going to try replicating the effect to use in another player (not competing with foobar, as it's mainly for different platforms where foobar can't be run normally), and if I ever release that at all, it'll be open source & free and with the proper credits, of course.
I believe it's the extended version based on what the person who converted the hardware design to C code has written. But frankly the math behind the operation isn't too clear to me.
Is that piece in public access somewhere?
Oh, I think I found it. It's in the Rockbox source code. https://github.com/Rockbox/rockbox/blob/d64ff86fb6be22875cfae054f8a878dbd8b1472b/lib/rbcodec/dsp/crossfeed.c#L233
Can you please confirm or deny that the algorithm used in this component is the same as in Rockbox?
Here's the sources of the component if you wish to take a look anyway.
Thank you so much!
Hi Case,
I'm afraid the link to the 64bit version is dead. Would you please post another link. Also, as a note, I've been using the 32bit version on Win7 64bit computer with some, though limited success. The crossfeed function does work, but only the left channel moves towards the center -- the right channel remains static. All to say that I'd sure be interested in trying the 64bit version. Help appreciated.
@rontokyo
foobar2000 v2.0 32bit 64bit
provided as standard
(https://i.imgur.com/sCVvsiJ.png)
Thanks
@Air KEN. According to the notes in the component repository, the Meier crossfeed only works on 32bit machines [though I've had some success with it on my 64bit Win7]. Are you saying that the Meier crossfeed in fact supports 64bit machines as well?
Meier Crossfeed
https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_meiercf
https://foobar.hyv.fi/1.4/?view=foo_dsp_meiercf
What download site are you talking about?
for old version.
Why not try it yourself with a portable installation?
According to the notes in the component repository, the Meier crossfeed only works on 32bit machines [though I've had some success with it on my 64bit Win7]. Are you saying that the Meier crossfeed in fact supports 64bit machines as well?
In fb2k v2 it is built-in as a part of Standard DSP Array. So, yes, it "supports 64bit machines". Just go to DSP Manager and add "Meier Crossfeed" to Active DSPs.
What download site are you talking about?
for old version.
Why not try it yourself with a portable installation?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Qe3xVzaxV0BVQHDu5qXXj6R9a35KTRg/view?usp=drive_link
I was unable to post the image, but checking the image uploaded to Drive you'll notice that it's stated: "Supported processor architecture: x86 32-bit."
Apologies, but it should've been clear that I'm currently using the Meier crossfeed plugin.
@Bogozo,
I think the problem I'm having with the Meier xfeed may be that I haven't updated to v.2 of foobar2k. Hmm. Think I'll do that now :-). Thanks.
Reply #62 https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,108412.msg1031148.html#msg1031148
There is no download site because it is standard equipment.
Try foobar2000 v2.0 64bit portable installation
I updated to v.2 [32bit] and was "notified" during the installation that my "current" version of Meier crossfeed was outdated and could not be imported. And opening the new installation I could see that in Foobar v.2, as you've mentioned, Meier crossfeed is installed as standard. Using it now and it works properly.
Two questions: one, I read on another site that the the Meier crossfeed does not work in the 64bit version of v.2 [and for that reason I installed the 32bit version]. Can you verify if that's true. And two, why do you recommend the portable install? Thanks again.
Because it is easy to introduce a portable installation.
You can add as many as you want.
Uninstalling is just deleting the folder.
This is recommended for TEST.
I'm using 64bit.
It's easy to install, so it's faster and more reliable to try it yourself
Sounds easy enough. I'll give it a go. Thanks.
Portable installation:
Start Setup。
https://foobar2000.xrea.jp/up/files/up1590.png
Select Portable installation。
https://foobar2000.xrea.jp/up/files/up1591.png
The default installation destination is Desktop. Do not specify any other folder.
https://foobar2000.xrea.jp/up/files/up1592.png
Uncheck boot.
https://foobar2000.xrea.jp/up/files/up1593.png
Save the "foobar2000" folder created on the desktop in a folder created such as "foobar2000 v2.x Portable".
When using it, create a folder such as "foobar2000 v2.x Portable-02" and put the "foobar2000" folder there to create a shortcut. Please put it in any folder.
Now you can add any number of portable installations. Especially useful for Test.
Update just overwrites the foobar2000 folder with the foobar2000 folder.
I made a 64-bit version in October last year and it can be downloaded from http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/temp/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/temp/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip). When I made it I tested it in various VST hosts and while it worked fine in others, Equalizer APO crashed if one tried to access configuration. This component relies on the host to draw the sliders it needs and it looked like EqAPO didn't support that.
Could you share the 64-bit version of the MeierCrosfeed VST plugin with me, please? I use it's 32-bit version in Reaper and it works great. I think 64-bit version is supposed to work even better and faster with my 4-core CPU.
Could you share the 64-bit version of the MeierCrosfeed VST plugin with me, please? I use it's 32-bit version in Reaper and it works great. I think 64-bit version is supposed to work even better and faster with my 4-core CPU.
https://hyv.fi/files/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip (https://hyv.fi/files/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip)
Could you share the 64-bit version of the MeierCrosfeed VST plugin with me, please? I use it's 32-bit version in Reaper and it works great. I think 64-bit version is supposed to work even better and faster with my 4-core CPU.
https://hyv.fi/files/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip (https://hyv.fi/files/MeierCrossfeedVSTx64.zip)
Appreciate you! This one works great in Reaper