Okay I have a copy of Dave Tippers Surrounded and I was wondering how I could copy and convert the DVD-Audio part (NOT THE ONE IN THE VIDEO_TS THE REAL DVD-AUDIO PART, I already know how to extract ac3 from vob and convert it!).
Also it seems to have some copy protection called MMCP or something like that, is there a way to get rid of that ?
note: if i asked something stupid, or asked something wrong please don't flame me, as I'm totaly new to DVD-Audio!
If you succeed at ripping it, please let us know.
There is currently no way to digitally rip DVD-Audio. The only thing you can do is run the analog outs of your DVD-Audio player to your soundcard and record it.
What Cyaneyes said. The DVD Audio part is heavily encrypted, as well as encoded into a format that no (source-free) utility can play back so far.
Your best bet is to rip the ac3/dts part from the video_ts part, if any is included.
If it's possible to burn DVD Audio, how come we can't rip it back off? Or do domestic DVD burners not write data in the same format as commercial ones are done?
You can burn non-encrypted dvd-audio (the encryption is optional).
Also it seems to have some copy protection called MMCP or something like that, is there a way to get rid of that ?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301447"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's CPPM. And that's the tricky part.
You can also digitally record it with some modified DVD-A players, which are not cheap. I remember seeing another thread about this here a while ago.
You can burn non-encrypted dvd-audio (the encryption is optional).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301470"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So if it's at least possible to encrypt using available software, does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301704"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, that does not mean unencryption will be possible.
In my opinion, unencrypting of CPPM should not happen. Nowadays, there is the SACD versus DVD-Audio race. My vote is for DVD-Audio. If unencyption of commercial DVD-Audio discs would be possible, the big music labels would not prefer no more the DVD-Audio format, and SACD would get the preference.
So in order to spread DVD-Audio format, it's better to not unencrypt DVD-Audio.
So if it's at least possible to encrypt using available software, does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301704"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There's two layers of encryption. The encryption uses a media key block to authenticate the player, which itself is encrypted. The MKB is decrypted using a unique key individual to the player, and compromised keys can be disabled from decrypting future releases, rendering the audio player completely useless.
The only known way to decrpyt the MKB without a throwaway key is brute force, which apart from being incredibly time consuming would have to have a mechanism to detect when the MKB had been correctly decrypted. I believe they've also started using digital watermarking on some releases.
does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301704"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, that does not mean unencryption will be possible.
In my opinion, unencrypting of CPPM should not happen. Nowadays, there is the SACD versus DVD-Audio race. My vote is for DVD-Audio. If unencyption of commercial DVD-Audio discs would be possible, the big music labels would not prefer no more the DVD-Audio format, and SACD would get the preference.
So in order to spread DVD-Audio format, it's better to not unencrypt DVD-Audio.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301715"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.
AtW
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.
AtW
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301718"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A record executive's worst nightmare. You have to remember that most of the people this type of protection is pitched to don't actually know a lot about technology. Business is their game.
If an analyst with a shiny PhD shows you some positive looking statistics and tells you how effective this new protection is at reducing piracy, you're probably going to agree to it unless it's obscenely expensive to implement. If you went into a major record label and proposed an internet distributed format with no protection you'd get shot down the minute you walked into the boardroom.
What they don't seem to realise is the vast majority of people who download music aren't concerned with fidelity. No matter what protection you put on a disc it will be able to be reproduced somehow, even if only by analogue recording. Yes, you will lose quality but as I said to most downloaders this isn't an issue. The end result is the majority of protection schemes do little to reduce piracy but inconvenience those of us who actually pay for our music.
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.
AtW
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301718"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At least on SACD you can rip the Redbook CD layer. I am perfectly happy for consumers to not be able to rip and share hi-res content. The record company is never going to turn around and say 'here, have a master quality copy of our album to share with all your mates'. It's not as if an analogue rip of a DVD-A isn't good enough to shove on your mp3 player of choice...
At least on SACD you can rip the Redbook CD layer. I am perfectly happy for consumers to not be able to rip and share hi-res content. The record company is never going to turn around and say 'here, have a master quality copy of our album to share with all your mates'. It's not as if an analogue rip of a DVD-A isn't good enough to shove on your mp3 player of choice...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301753"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have all my music on my computer, not just my mp3-player, what if you want to have good quality and not use the damn discs all the time? As a consumer i would like the freedom of having the music on my media of choiche. To be frank, i think the industry is just alianating more consumers by making origianl products so restrictive. (why am i forced to see a stupid anti-piracy ad on my ORIGINAL dvd, when it's sure to be removed on the copy, for example).
But I guess they won't listen to me
AtW
The record company is never going to turn around and say 'here, have a master quality copy of our album to share with all your mates'. ..
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301753"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or even "here, we won't put ineffective protection methods on our media so you can listen to high fidelity audio without switching discs every 10 minutes". A man can dream.
They should just ditch both formats, IMHO, I would like to see music distributed as files, on any chosen media, not just on dvds or cds.
AtW
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301718"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I see no end to the SACD vs DVDA war.
This will confuse consumers and ultimately the industry loses.
Unless if Sony refuses to license SACD to the pornographic music industry.
(that was a Beta joke)
Forgive the potentially stupid question, but... how about using an optical cable, connect the optical-out of the DVD-A player to the optical-in of something else, and record that? Would that not be lossless?
The only thing is, I haven't played aroudn with this for long enough to guess whether the recording will include, say, all channels of the DVD-A or whether you'll just end up with Stereo sound.
Any thoughts?
buying DVD-audio = "i dont need portability"
Keep that in mind when you buy a DVD-audio the next time.
Of course - if the album/video is at least a bit popular.... there are those unnamable ways to get an unprotected copy, so that you can play it on other devices as well. It doesn't really matter which method you choose, because practicing fair-use in this case would be illegal anways.
And concerning the music/movie-*industry* - who cares? They're obsolete and to the disadvantage of the consumers and content-creators anways.
Forgive the potentially stupid question, but... how about using an optical cable, connect the optical-out of the DVD-A player to the optical-in of something else, and record that? Would that not be lossless?
The only thing is, I haven't played aroudn with this for long enough to guess whether the recording will include, say, all channels of the DVD-A or whether you'll just end up with Stereo sound.
Any thoughts?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301927"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe that there is something in the DVD-A spec that prevents it from being output digitally, so that wouldn't really work.
Forgive the potentially stupid question, but... how about using an optical cable, connect the optical-out of the DVD-A player to the optical-in of something else, and record that? Would that not be lossless?
The only thing is, I haven't played aroudn with this for long enough to guess whether the recording will include, say, all channels of the DVD-A or whether you'll just end up with Stereo sound.
Any thoughts?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301927"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe that there is something in the DVD-A spec that prevents it from being output digitally, so that wouldn't really work.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301938"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's true for SACD, but not DVD-A, IIRC. I briefly played around with a Pioneer 578a "universal" player and remember it being able to output DVD-A through the S/PDIF, though in stereo and at a 48kHz sampling rate. SACD won't give you any digital connections, period (which sort of makes the whole argument over its supposed "higher resolution" seem kind of funny!).
there's one thing I've always wondered about. If a regular DVD player everyone can buy in stores has a decryption key, why hasn't someone found a method yet to extract one of those keys and make it available for everyone. Maybe they could even find the algorithm to generate new keys...because I doubt that every DVD player has an unique key, which is stored on every DVD. I guess they just use a bunch of master keys...
Also, are computer DVD drives able to play DVD Audio? If that's the case what prevents someone from capturing the stream, kinda what they do with DRM protected files. However, since DVD-Audio is lossless you won't loose any quality in opposite to most DRM protected files...
ANd here's another thing: if that method is so effective why aren't all DVD's encrypted then? It wouldn't people prevent from burning DVD's but they could stop people from sharing ripped stuff...
ANd here's another thing: if that method is so effective why aren't all DVD's encrypted then? It wouldn't people prevent from burning DVD's but they could stop people from sharing ripped stuff...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301944"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The vast majority of commercial DVD's ARE encrypted, but unlike DVD-Video, DVD-A's encryption system is newer and has yet to be cracked. DVD-Video uses relatively weak 40-bit CSS encryption, and was cracked in 1999 or so, which delayed the launch of DVD-A. The industry, seeing that the DVD-video system had already been cracked, choose to use a newer system (CCPM) that still hasn't been defeated. The only way to "copy" a DVD-A is to capture it at a lower sampling rate in realtime, or in analog.
Moral of the story: unless you plan on never listening to a particular recording outside of your living room, don't buy DVD-A or SACD. Aside from the often-gimmicky multichannel capabilities, I've yet to see any compelling evidence that they do anything better than the plain-old CD's we've had laying around for twenty years.
does that mean in the future someone can work out a way to make it possible to unencrypt commercial discs?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301704"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, that does not mean unencryption will be possible.
In my opinion, unencrypting of CPPM should not happen. Nowadays, there is the SACD versus DVD-Audio race. My vote is for DVD-Audio. If unencyption of commercial DVD-Audio discs would be possible, the big music labels would not prefer no more the DVD-Audio format, and SACD would get the preference.
So in order to spread DVD-Audio format, it's better to not unencrypt DVD-Audio.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301715"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
SACD vs. DVD-Audio is a race that nobody cares about. Remember that LPs outsell SACD and DVD-Audio COMBINED in 2005. They are both technically somewhat interesting and commercially a bad joke. I really doubt that merely unencrypting either format can save them from the DAT/8-track/DCC/Elcasette dustbin of audio debacles.
Is there a way to rip unencrypted DVD-A then?
Also, are computer DVD drives able to play DVD Audio? If that's the case what prevents someone from capturing the stream, kinda what they do with DRM protected files. However, since DVD-Audio is lossless you won't loose any quality in opposite to most DRM protected files...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301944"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, DVD Audio discs can be played on DVD drives. The drive itself doesn't matter. Which is matter is the playing software. As far as I know, currently PowerDVD 6 and WinDVD 6 is able to play DVD Audio discs, however to play CPPM encrypted discs, a personal license key for CPPM or something similar is required, which can be purchased separately.
Is there a way to rip unencrypted DVD-A then?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302050"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Though I never tried, I think unencypted DVD-Audio discs can be copied simply extracting to an ISO, and then burning that ISO. For example with DVD Decrypter with ISO Mode.
SACD vs. DVD-Audio is a race that nobody cares about. Remember that LPs outsell SACD and DVD-Audio COMBINED in 2005. They are both technically somewhat interesting and commercially a bad joke. I really doubt that merely unencrypting either format can save them from the DAT/8-track/DCC/Elcasette dustbin of audio debacles.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302005"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
...which means that we might have seen the last global physical audio format: the CD. That's it. End of the physical media story. It's lossy stereo audio files from now on.
That would be quite sad, because multichannel, done well, is fantastic. Not that you find much fantastic multichannel on DVD-A! Also, only having lossy content available would be a great shame!
It would be interesting if some audiophile record companies could "make a go" of a dedicated high quality audio format. It would have to be based on DVD-V or DVD-A (or CD!), but without some of the red tape, and with much better use of multichannel than conventional 5.1.
You see, it's often said that audiophiles aren't a large enough number of people to support an audio format (so SACD and DVD-A are both doomed) - but surely there are enough people who care about quality to allow a niche product (that piggybacks on something mainstream) to survive? If it can be read, decoded, and played in a standard PC with a 2 or 3 of stereo sound cards, that's a good start!
Cheers,
David.
Just wondering, where is the decryption being done in standalone players? Surely it can't be integrated into the DAC? Because as long as it's being done before the data reaches the DAC all you need to do is:
- Find the signal and clock signal pins coming into the DAC
- Solder on a S/PDIF encoding chip and connector
and you have a player with an unrestricted S/PDIF out. While this obviously isn't something the average consumer is prepared to do, it's not exactly rocket science either - anyone with some electronics skills and an oscilloscope should be able to do it (although I guess you might need special soldering tools depending on the DAC's packaging, and perhaps they add extra-special tamper-proofing like a big sign above the DAC saying "this is not a DAC").
This doesn't defeat any watermarking, of course, but really - who cares? As far as I know, you can still pay cash at a music store, and nobody is going to ask for your name and address :-)
This just illustrates what I've always found to be the major problem with copy protection - the only ones who suffers from it are the consumers. With sufficient dedication, any protection can be removed. As soon as it's removed, any copies made are hassle-free, while the people who want to "do the right thing" have to jump through hoops to use the content they paid for in the way they want to - if they're able to at all.
Seriously - I have two copy-protected CDs which I've been forced to make copies of to be able to play them in my standalone DVD player. When you're selling a product which can be copied without hassle (it took me about 15 minutes in total) but refuses to play back - the purpose for which it was presumably intended - I think there's something seriously flawed with your business logic.
Just wondering, where is the decryption being done in standalone players? Surely it can't be integrated into the DAC? Because as long as it's being done before the data reaches the DAC all you need to do is:
- Find the signal and clock signal pins coming into the DAC
- Solder on a S/PDIF encoding chip and connector
and you have a player with an unrestricted S/PDIF out. While this obviously isn't something the average consumer is prepared to do, it's not exactly rocket science either - anyone with some electronics skills and an oscilloscope should be able to do it (although I guess you might need special soldering tools depending on the DAC's packaging, and perhaps they add extra-special tamper-proofing like a big sign above the DAC saying "this is not a DAC").
This has been done for a few specific DVD player models. The add-on board costs about $800.
Though I never tried, I think unencypted DVD-Audio discs can be copied simply extracting to an ISO, and then burning that ISO. For example with DVD Decrypter with ISO Mode.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302057"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But then how do you encode it with flac or wavpack or tta or whatever.
But then how do you encode it with flac or wavpack or tta or whatever.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=302078")
Extracting the sound to wav is somewhat difficult, there are specifications how DVD-Audio zone elements (AOB, SAMG, AMG, ASVS) contains the audio information. Check dvda-author software site for informations about burning DVD-Audio and specifications:
[a href="http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/]http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/[/url]
At the moment I don't know any software which can extract wav from an unencrypted DVD-Audio.
...which means that we might have seen the last global physical audio format: the CD. That's it. End of the physical media story. It's lossy stereo audio files from now on.
That would be quite sad, because multichannel, done well, is fantastic. Not that you find much fantastic multichannel on DVD-A! Also, only having lossy content available would be a great shame!
Sound can just as well be multichannel and "non-lossy" (there is some loss of information anyway i guess, you aren't going to get unlimited sample-rate) without a physical media? Playing it on computers just makes it more felxible, 5.1 not good enough? release 7.1, all you need is a small software-upgrade (and new amp and speakers )
AtW
Just wondering, where is the decryption being done in standalone players? Surely it can't be integrated into the DAC? Because as long as it's being done before the data reaches the DAC all you need to do is:
- Find the signal and clock signal pins coming into the DAC
- Solder on a S/PDIF encoding chip and connector
and you have a player with an unrestricted S/PDIF out. While this obviously isn't something the average consumer is prepared to do, it's not exactly rocket science either - anyone with some electronics skills and an oscilloscope should be able to do it (although I guess you might need special soldering tools depending on the DAC's packaging, and perhaps they add extra-special tamper-proofing like a big sign above the DAC saying "this is not a DAC").[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302060"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, this method works although it's cost is rather prohibitive and I lack the skill to perform that kind of modification myself.
Seriously - I have two copy-protected CDs which I've been forced to make copies of to be able to play them in my standalone DVD player. When you're selling a product which can be copied without hassle (it took me about 15 minutes in total) but refuses to play back - the purpose for which it was presumably intended - I think there's something seriously flawed with your business logic.
From a business point of view it isn't a terrible idea. These measures are relatively cheap to implement, and the "experts" who pitch them to the businessmen vastly overstate their effectiveness. Most of these businessmen don't realise how ineffective they are in practice. The average record executive thinks copy protection methods stop the pirates while not inconveniencing legitimate users, for the most part blissfully ignorant of the fact the opposite is true in reality.
Part of the blame lies squarely with these people for not researching the effectiveness of protection technologies, granted (getting independent advice from a non-academic is a good start). I personally feel part of the blame also lies with the "experts".
SACD vs. DVD-Audio is a race that nobody cares about. Remember that LPs outsell SACD and DVD-Audio COMBINED in 2005. They are both technically somewhat interesting and commercially a bad joke. I really doubt that merely unencrypting either format can save them from the DAT/8-track/DCC/Elcasette dustbin of audio debacles.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=302005")
...which means that we might have seen the last global physical audio format: the CD. That's it. End of the physical media story. It's lossy stereo audio files from now on.
That would be quite sad, because multichannel, done well, is fantastic. Not that you find much fantastic multichannel on DVD-A! Also, only having lossy content available would be a great shame!
Hardly, since there's still Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. on the very popular DVD format, for multichannel. There's also DSP like Dolby Pro Logic II, which works for any stereo source and I find does a very nice job of turnign stereo into 'multichannel' for many tracks. And of course compression can be lossless (WMA Lossless, FLAC, Shorten, MLP etc) as a well as lossy.
It would be interesting if some audiophile record companies could "make a go" of a dedicated high quality audio format. It would have to be based on DVD-V or DVD-A (or CD!), but without some of the red tape, and with much better use of multichannel than conventional 5.1.
[a href="http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=13391]http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Detai...px?NewsId=13391[/url]
Moral of the story: unless you plan on never listening to a particular recording outside of your living room, don't buy DVD-A or SACD. Aside from the often-gimmicky multichannel capabilities, I've yet to see any compelling evidence that they do anything better than the plain-old CD's we've had laying around for twenty years.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301964"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While I agree that the 'superiority' fo DVD-A to Redbook for stereo playback is theoretical at best, FWIW, DVD-A fans aren't *totally* confined to home listening..if they drive an Acura RL.
Hardly, since there's still Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. on the very popular DVD format, for multichannel.
I don't think 448kbps AC-3 5.1 is going to set the audiophile world alight, do you?
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Detai...px?NewsId=13391 (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=13391)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302211"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's interesting - MLP can do a lot more than is currently realised in its DVD-A incarnation, so it could probably deliver lossless 24/192 9-channel 2nd order ambisonics on BlueRay if required and implemented. I wonder if they were mad enough to put that in the standard? I wonder if anyone will be mad enough to make a recording?
Still, that's probably a long way off. What I was thinking of was an audiophile standard that could build on DVD without requiring proprietary encoding.
Cheers,
David.
Hardly, since there's still Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. on the very popular DVD format, for multichannel.
I don't think 448kbps AC-3 5.1 is going to set the audiophile world alight, do you?
The audio market doesn't depend on setting the 'audiophile' world alight. And given some of the snake oil that *does* set the audiophile world alight, that's a good thing.
IMO 'audiophile' quality sound is already available on CD...just master the damn things right.
At the moment I don't know any software which can extract wav from an unencrypted DVD-Audio.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=302082")
The Steinberg [a href="http://www.steinberg.de/ProductPage_sb0f7f.html?Product_ID=2442&Langue_ID=4]WaveLab 5[/url] software can do it. But this is a costly package aimed at professionals.
Wouldn't it be possible to create a reader that sets a computer's DVD laser to the beginning of a disk and then forces it to read and record every single byte in sequential order without any intermediary interpretation? That way, a bit-for-bit perfect DVD/DVDA ISO could be achieved without any unnecessary copy protection gymnastics.
Or -- I'm sorry -- is copying the actual disk not an issue?
Although DVDA and SACD are indeed rather prohibitive at the moment, I doubt their anti-piracy schematics will last. Too many customers are already weaned on portable media, and record/movie companies will eventually be forced to either brainwash the masses into submission or accept piracy as an inevitability. Success will come to the format, perhaps through an Apple lawsuit, or perhaps through some enterprising indie label that releases a series of unencrypted DVDAs.
Ooh! Off-topic, but take a look at this: http://www.portabledvdstore.com/pandvdpa6por.html (http://www.portabledvdstore.com/pandvdpa6por.html)
HOHOHOHO!!!!
http://www.rarewares.org/ (http://www.rarewares.org/)
Now that's really cool!
Does it rip the MLP streams directly do the HD? In that case, is there any software capable of decoding MLP streams?
Now that's really cool!
Does it rip the MLP streams directly do the HD? In that case, is there any software capable of decoding MLP streams?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310992"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure yet, but I suspect it also decodes the streams.
The only way to know for sure is testing it yourself
anyone had success in ripping DVD-A content with these programs, and if so, how?
anyone had success in ripping DVD-A content with these programs, and if so, how?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311035"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The guy that suggested these tools to me told me he had success with them.
And answering to Hamman: yes, MLPs can be decoded. dvdaripper.exe just unencrypts the AOBs, so that you can later burn them to another DVD. And ppcmripper.exe can take these unencrypted AOBs and output high quality wavs out of them.
Does it rip the MLP streams directly do the HD? In that case, is there any software capable of decoding MLP streams?[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=310992")
DVDARipper.exe decrypts the AUDIO_TS files to the hard disk. You then have to burn them to a DVD-R, thus producing an unencrypted copy of the DVD-Audio.
Then you insert that DVD-R instead of the original DVD, and use PPCMRipper.exe. It actually launches WinDVD. There, you select the track(s) you want to play (you also often have the choice between 5.1 and stereo content). You need to play the tracks in real time, and in the mean time PPCMRipper.exe extracts the audio to .wav files on the hard drive. I noticed that you need to set up WinDVD properly in order to extract the right audio (check "24bit/96kHz output" and set up the target audio system to 5.1 in the "audio center").
In the end, the whole process is quite inconvenient (rip, burn, record), but at least we can finally rip our DVD-A's.
DVDAExplorer_a7.exe can extract the original .mlp files out of the unencrypted copy of the DVD-A. The trouble is, I don't know of any software that is capable of decoding them. Even WinDVD refuses to open such files. And btw, WaveLab doesn't support that codec either, so even though you pass the unencrypted DVD-A to it, it will fail saying that the audio is in an unknown format.
I will post a sample of the ripped audio shortly for anyone to review. I'm very curious to see if it is indeed the original 24bit/92kHz audio, or a 24bit/92kHz upsample of a 16bit/48kHz downsample of the original 24bit/96kHz audio (!), since apparently WinDVD refuses to output the full resolution to anything else than the sanctionned Creative Labs Audigy soundcard (see the thread [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=31406]Digital copy of DVD-A Tracks[/url] about the issue). I'm hoping that the tools bypass that restriction somehow.
The software is still very alpha-quality, but at least it seems to work, and that's a first. Thank you very much rjamorim for providing us those tools, and a big thank you to the author.
Edit: I actually use the word "actually" way too often...
You then have to burn them to a DVD-R, thus producing an unencrypted copy of the DVD-Audio.
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It should be possible to mount it as a virtual drive with daemon tools or something similar, right?
I'd like to add my thanks also. I think I'm going to buy my first DVD-Audio disc today, solely due to the fact that I can now rip them. I'm curious to see whether it's true that the mastering on certain DVD-A titles is better than their CD counterpart (loudness race).
See, music industry? If you had treated the consumer with respect from the beginning and not used copy protection, I'd probably own a dozen or so DVD-A's by now.
In the end, the whole process is quite inconvenient (rip, burn, record), but at least we can finally rip our DVD-A's.
DVDAExplorer_a7.exe can extract the original .mlp files out of the unencrypted copy of the DVD-A.
I suspect you can mount the audio_ts in Daemon Tools and the like. Maybe that'll fool WinDVD?
The trouble is, I don't know of any software that is capable of decoding them. Even WinDVD refuses to open such files. And btw, WaveLab doesn't support that codec either, so even though you pass the unencrypted DVD-A to it, it will fail saying that the audio is in an unknown format.
Yes, unfortunately, MLP is a completely closed and proprietary format.
I will post a sample of the ripped audio shortly for anyone to review.
Excellent, thanks
I'm hoping that the tools bypass that restriction somehow.
I suspect it does, but testing it would be indeed the best way to know for sure.
Thank you very much rjamorim for providing us those tools, and a big thank you to the author.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311128"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Glad you found this useful
Now let's start the countdown until a RIAA registered letter arrives at my mailbox...
OBS: There's a caveat, according to the guy that suggested these tools for me. WinDVD won't play unencrypted and watermarked DVD-As. The logic is this:
you can play encrypted with watermarking (original)
you can play encrypted without watermarking (original)
you can play unencrypted without watermarking (home)
you can't play unencrypted with watermarking (pirate)
Strangely enough, PowerDVD will play unencrypted + watermarked streams fine.
Wow! It's a bad new for the DVD forum (but a good one for companies behind SACD).
I've three DVD-A (including 2 classical one) and I'm very interested to check them through an audio editor. Thanks for hosting the applications, Roberto.
Well I'll be buying a DVD-Audio disc tomorrow.
It would be awesome if the format actually became more popular after this new "feature" got enabled.
That would probably send a hint or two to the recording studios.
Note: I can't upload the sample in the uploads forum. Whenever I click on the "add this attachement" or "post new topic" buttons I only get an error message: "This document contains no data"... Here is the thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35330) anyway.
If it's smaller than 9Mb, send it to my e-mail. I'll host it for a while at RW.
rjamorim@yahoo.com
If it's smaller than 9Mb, send it to my e-mail. I'll host it for a while at RW.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311178"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
E-mail sent. Thanks!
Just found my Creative sampler disc, but am unable to get anything off of it using PPCM Ripper. I can extract the MLP files using the DVDAExplorer program, but as has been noted by others I can't play them. Will keep trying.
Also, I can't trick WinDVD into thinking I have 7.1 surround. I have an Audigy 2. Does anyone know how to do this?
Here we go!
http://www.rarewares.org/rja/Yes-Roundabou..._96kHz_5.1.flac (http://www.rarewares.org/rja/Yes-Roundabout-MLP_24bit_96kHz_5.1.flac)
Thanks skamp.
I'm not sure what I have to do to test its authenticity (i.e. is it the original high resolution audio or a downsample?), so people in the know, please analyse this sample ;-)
Downsample
Downsample [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311191"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's so evil...
I still don't understand this bullshit of only allowing Creative card owners to enjoy full quality.
Downsample
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311191"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How can you tell? Anyway that really sucks then.
Downsample
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311191"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How can you tell? Anyway that really sucks then.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311194"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Converted to wav and looked at it in Audition.. very clear lowpass at 24khz
That's so evil...
I still don't understand this bullshit of only allowing Creative card owners to enjoy full quality.
That sounds like a contradictio in terminis
Maybe the sample was originated from 48KHz master... 16/48 or 24/48 shouldn't be too uncommon in recording business, no?
I used DVDAExplorer on my NIN Downward Spiral Dualdisc - it says the tracks are at 48000khz and rips them to my harddisk as MLP files. I cant figure out how to play them back. Dvdaripper wont work, there isnt an MKB file in the AUDIO_TS directory on the DVD. PPCMripper can rip the tracks, they come out as 24bit/48khz though...
PPCMripper can rip the tracks, they come out as 24bit/48khz though...[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311205"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't that what you want?
Not quite what I was expecting, I thought that most DVD-As are encoded @ 96khz.
Maybe the sample was originated from 48KHz master... 16/48 or 24/48 shouldn't be too uncommon in recording business, no?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311201"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But then why upsample it to 96kHz? Just for marketting?
Downward Spiral DVD-A is 48khz. I believe that's how it was originally recorded. Remember that was a few years back now.
Converted to wav and looked at it in Audition.. very clear lowpass at 24khz
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311196"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Would you mind posting a screenshot? I've a hard time picturing what you mean (I don't know much about such things).
Maybe the sample was originated from 48KHz master... 16/48 or 24/48 shouldn't be too uncommon in recording business, no?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311201"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But then why upsample it to 96kHz? Just for marketting?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311209"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Besides multichannel, thats most of its marketing
Converted to wav and looked at it in Audition.. very clear lowpass at 24khz
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311196"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Would you mind posting a screenshot? I've a hard time picturing what you mean (I don't know much about such things).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311212"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://home.comcast.net/~jahearn79/images/lowpass.gif)
Do you happen to know any of the recording details of the clip you posted? If it's 70s Yes, it must have been analog recording. If it's later than that, it could have been recorded digitally at 48khz.
Do you happen to know any of the recording details of the clip you posted? If it's 70s Yes, it must have been analog recording. If it's later than that, it could have been recorded digitally at 48khz.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311215"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rondabout it's a piece from 1972
Do you happen to know any of the recording details of the clip you posted? If it's 70s Yes, it must have been analog recording. If it's later than that, it could have been recorded digitally at 48khz.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311215"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mmm-kay, I downloaded the evaluation program and I see the same. So I loaded the stereo mix too (still 24bit/96kHz), and it didn't show the lowpass. So I tried another DVD-A (The Doors - L.A. Woman), and it's even more obvious, the full band is used. So it's just the 5.1 mix on the "Yes - Fragile" DVD-A that has been butchered??
I wish I could upload more samples and screenshots, but I can't access my web space right now (no idea why). The point is, the tools
do work fine, they do extract genuine 96kHz audio. I'm still shocked about that Fragile 5.1 mix though
I wouldn't say it's butchered. Maybe they just didn't have enough space on the disc to include all 6 channels of the 5.1 mix in 96khz, so they made it 48.
As you said above,
I noticed that you need to set up WinDVD properly in order to extract the right audio (check "24bit/96kHz output" and set up the target audio system to 5.1 in the "audio center").
So the sample rate of the surround mix on the disc is probably 48, it just was output as 96 since you set that option.
If the stereo is fine, then nothing is being downsampled.
How long before some wizard disassembles the windvd codec and decryption code, and comes up with an open-source, self-contained extracting tool ?
I'd say 3-4 months...
Question: PPCMripper says it won't extract multichannel audio, that the disc must be decrypted first. Could anyone describe how to get the multichannel audio from these discs?
I wouldn't say it's butchered. Maybe they just didn't have enough space on the disc to include all 6 channels of the 5.1 mix in 96khz, so they made it 48.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311226"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It definitely says "Advanced Resolution Multi-Channel Surround Sound (96 kHz/24-bit)" on the back of the DVD case. I want my money back!
I wouldn't say it's butchered. Maybe they just didn't have enough space on the disc to include all 6 channels of the 5.1 mix in 96khz, so they made it 48.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311226"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It definitely says "Advanced Resolution Multi-Channel Surround Sound (96 kHz/24-bit)" on the back of the DVD case. I want my money back!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311232"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you think you'd really notice a audible difference? Doubt it.
Edit: Quote
you think you'd really notice a audible difference? Doubt it.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311234"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wouldn't go there. Why bother with DVD-A in the first place when there is already a multichannel DTS track? Anyway, that's like selling someone a CD-DA when the source is really a 192kbps MP3. Most people wouldn't notice the difference, but how would they feel about it?
It would be more like selling somebody a CD-DA with a FLAC source with a 20khz lowpass
But it is dodgy advertising, nevertheless, even if its placebo.
How come this hasn't been slashdotted yet?
How come some of these programs have had versions dating to late 2004, and they have only seemed to surface now?
OK, my webspace is available again, so I uploaded another sample (The Doors - Love Her Madly - 24bit/96kHz 5.1 (http://geeceezee.free.fr/samples/The_Doors-Love_Her_Madly-MLP_24bit_96kHz_5.1.flac)), as well as a screenshot of the frequency analysis of the ripped song:
(http://geeceezee.free.fr/screenshots/The_Doors-Love_Her_Madly-MLP_5.1.png)
That looks much better, doesn't it?
Now we can start authentic DVD-A ABX tests.
How come this hasn't been slashdotted yet?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311245"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm actually happy it hasn't been slashdotted. The longer it takes to be announced at big sites, the longer it'll take for me to be legally forced to remove it.
How come some of these programs have had versions dating to late 2004, and they have only seemed to surface now?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311247"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The developer kept VERY low profile. But a friend of him noticed his posts at a russian forum, and gave me the idea of hosting his stuff.
So the Doors sample shows that it is definitely capturing the stream directly?
Hope I'm not talking too much nonsense, but does that frequency analysis actually show that a song from The Doors has greater frequency content between 40-45 kHz than between 10-15kHz? Or is it a problem with either Audacity, the DVD-A authoring or my lack of knowledge on how to correctly read a frequency plot?
Cheers, Joey.
Hope I'm not talking too much nonsense, but does that frequency analysis actually show that a song from The Doors has greater frequency content between 40-45 kHz than between 10-15kHz? Or is it a problem with either Audacity, the DVD-A authoring or my lack of knowledge on how to correctly read a frequency plot?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311291"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, that's what it's showing. I'm seeing it too. I would say it's some kind of noise shaping, but such a thing shouldn't be necessary at all with 24 bit audio.
Does anyone else have the Creative DVD-Audio sampler disc? I am still yet to get a single thing off of it. PPCMRipper doesn't give an error, but nothing is output in the specified directory. Using WinDVD 6.0.6.56.
Does anyone else have the Creative DVD-Audio sampler disc? I am still yet to get a single thing off of it. PPCMRipper doesn't give an error, but nothing is output in the specified directory. Using WinDVD 6.0.6.56.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311305"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yup, works fine here with my Audigy 2 and sample disc with WinDVD 6. I ripped the tracks directly using PPCMRipper using the command "PPCMRipper 96000 f:\temp" and each track showed up in the directory as I played through them, it even automatically starts a new file on track change. It's just a bit of a pain since you have to allow WinDVD to play through the entire track normally.
Well obviously I'm doing something wrong, because I get nothing in the output directory. What settings are you using in WinDVD? Where are you putting the PPCMRipper application?
Hoho. Got announced at Doom9's home page.
I guess now Slashdot and the RIAA letter are only a matter of time
Well obviously I'm doing something wrong, because I get nothing in the output directory. What settings are you using in WinDVD? Where are you putting the PPCMRipper application?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311313"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Umm, I guess I'm just using the default settings in WinDVD since I haven't changed anything. It shouldn't make any difference where the PPCMRipper app is located, I have it running off of a different drive than the output location. As soon as I run PPCMRipper from the command line WinDVD opens and this text is displayed at the command prompt.
D:\Program Files\Tools\DVD-A>PPCMRipper 96000 f:\temp
PPCM Ripper Add-On for InterVideo WinDVD 5/6/7 Player. Version 0.07
D&D by MaximA, 2005.
Loading WinDVD Add-On.
Waiting for WinDVD Add-On load completion.
Attaching to GPIProxy.
GPIProxy version is 6.0.6.42.
I then select any track and hit play in WinDVD. Immediately this appears at the prompt:
Ripping 6-ch PPCM track to file f:\temp\track-42cb4faa.wav [..
and the file "track-42cb4faa.wav" is created at the target directory.
Upon closing WinDVD this appears at the prompt:
Detaching from GPIProxy.
Unloading WinDVD Add-On.
D:\Program Files\Tools\DVD-A>
And the nice 6 channel .wav file is ready and waiting for me.
Hoho. Got announced at Doom9's home page.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=311317")
That's no wonder, you made a [a href="http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96860]post[/url] about it!
I never see the "Ripping 6-ch PPCM track to file f:\temp\track-42cb4faa.wav [.." line. It says it attaches and detaches the add-on fine.
My brother has the Audigy 2 ZS + creative sampler disc. He's having the same problem. It gets to the point where it says "GPIProxy Version is 6.0.6.42" and when he try's to play a track, nothing is dumped.
I'm not sure what the problem is on his end.
-Joe
So how do I rip Multichannel?
PPCMripper will only rip 2 channel from my DVD-A disc, but DVD-A explorer will copy the mlps to my harddrive in 6 channel format.
How do I rip them out of the mlp format from the harddrive?
So how do I rip Multichannel?
PPCMripper will only rip 2 channel from my DVD-A disc, but DVD-A explorer will copy the mlps to my harddrive in 6 channel format.
How do I rip them out of the mlp format from the harddrive?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311333"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you must convince WinDVD you have a surround system, in the Audio configuration tab
I can't get it out of two channel mode - probably because WinDVD can't make heads or tails of my Echo Layla? And what exactly is the use of ripping as decrypted MLP files (via DVDAExplorer) when none of these programs can read them?
Those with Audigy 2 problems, did you notice the
4. When using this Add-On with Audigy 2 soundcard deinstall
"Creative DVD Audio Plugin for Audigy Series" first.
in the readme.txt?
Yep, didn't change anything.
Edit: Somehow it got reinstalled, ????
Anyway, removed it and it works, thanks.
I´ve read that the Creative Audigy 4 supports DVD-A up to 192KHz -> so there will be no need to remove the creativeDVD-A driver as adviced, am I right?
Question: PPCMripper says it won't extract multichannel audio, that the disc must be decrypted first. Could anyone describe how to get the multichannel audio from these discs?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311231"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What I did was rip the video portion of my disc with DVD Decrypter, rip the DVD-Audio portion with dvdaripper.exe, made an ISO out of it, and mounted it.
Since the "disc" is protection free PPCMripper should have no problems.
But DVDaripper changes the large AOBs to tracks of MLP files, and WinDVD only can playback AOBs through IFO files, so how exactly does it work?
I don't know what you were doing with DVDAripper, but I ended up with a directory full of unprotected AOBs.
DVDAExplorer is what changes them to MLPs.
Oops, sorry for the mixup.
I don't believe this DVD-A im trying to rip is CPPM protected, there is no DVDAUDIO.MKB in the Audio_TS directory, and the few tries I've done with dvdaripper have been unsuccessful, but ppcmripper rips 2ch waves just fine.
Next Question...
When you convert a Multichannel wav file to Nero AAC using foobar and foo_nero, does it have the correct channel order?
Edit: On another note, I just went to three different music stores. None stock DVD-Audio or SACD. I guess that says alot about the long term future of these formats.
I´ve read that the Creative Audigy 4 supports DVD-A up to 192KHz -> so there will be no need to remove the creativeDVD-A driver as adviced, am I right?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311342"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, you'll probably have to. The Audigy 4 and Audigy 2 ZS are identical except for the DACs.
I was able to rip an entire retail DVD-Audio to 5.1 WAV and transcode them to FLAC. Metallica - Metallica (Black Album) if anyone was wondering which album.
Edit: Here is a grab from Audition of Enter Sandman...
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6121/metallicadvdascan7gl.png)
And here is Sad But True...
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4383/metallicadvdascan20wt.png)
http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/06/1740206.shtml (http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/06/1740206.shtml)
Here we go...
http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/06/1740206.shtml (http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/06/1740206.shtml)
Here we go...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=311475")
[a href="http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=155036&cid=12996204]Here's a Slashdot comment[/url] linking to this thread. I had to link back to it. It was just too priceless. Yay for massive recursive linkfesting.
Oh bugger
EDIT: That was my post on slashdot btw...
So, what are folks using to burn the AUDIO_TS directory?
Above, someone made an ISO with the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS directory; I know Nero doesn't recognize AUDIO_TS -- is there anything that anyone else has been successful with besides Gear Pro?
http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/06/1740206.shtml (http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/06/1740206.shtml)
Here we go...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311475"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's gonna be one of them weeks, isn't it, Roberto.
Anyhoo:
I'm starting to wonder about watermarks. I wonder what'll happen if I re-watermark the watermarked audio. (I do have access to the Verance embedder.) This may cause an audible change, though I don't think we're going to be able to get rid of the watermark without screwing with the audio. The whole Verance thing is unfortunate.
At least for stereo 24/96, what you can do is create an LPCM DVD-V; most modern DVD-V players support this, and it sounds quite nice. (Even 192/24 'half sampled'). The watermark muting doesn't seem to engage: YMMV. (Even if your DVD-V player has a 192/24 dac -- some do now -- I believe the 192/24 LPCM rate is above the maximum data rate for the DVD-V spec anyways.)
Anyone have any other ideas about playback methods or venues? I could certainly see, after Creative releases their x.Fi, or using one of the other 192/24 cards on the market, you could make one hell of a high rez 'hard drive music server' out of a stack of DVD-A's.
Of course, that is, if 1) they keep producing DVD-A's after this and 2) any new versions of WinDVD become compromised and the big one 3)if the Recording Industry doesn't come down on InterVideo with the force of five thousand gods and the fire of a million suns.
I believe that #3 will occur, and it'll be so loud and violent you'll be able to hear it from space.
So, what are folks using to burn the AUDIO_TS directory?
Above, someone made an ISO with the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS directory; I know Nero doesn't recognize AUDIO_TS -- is there anything that anyone else has been successful with besides Gear Pro?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311510"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I actually used Gear Pro Mastering Edition, and saved the disc to HD. Mounted the .DV1 file using Daemon Tools and ripped from there using PPCMRipper.
So, what are folks using to burn the AUDIO_TS directory?
Above, someone made an ISO with the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS directory; I know Nero doesn't recognize AUDIO_TS -- is there anything that anyone else has been successful with besides Gear Pro?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=311510")
[a href="http://www.discwelder.com/low/low_dChrome.htm]DiscWelder Chrome II[/url]
Supports Wave, AIFF, MLP, and DSD DFF files.
seanyseansean: If you linked to RW directly, you would have had my design slashdotted (and Dibroms CSS goodness of course), that would have been cool.
Well, it's still up. Fantastic!
Ruairi
It's gonna be one of them weeks, isn't it, Roberto.
Haha. So here is the HomeBoy guy. Hello, IceDragon.
I'm starting to wonder about watermarks. I wonder what'll happen if I re-watermark the watermarked audio. (I do have access to the Verance embedder.) This may cause an audible change, though I don't think we're going to be able to get rid of the watermark without screwing with the audio. The whole Verance thing is unfortunate.
The dude that proposed that I host these tools at RW told me he can actually hear the watermark clumps in the middle of the music. So, if you rewatermark them, it's likely you'll only make quality worse :-P
At least for stereo 24/96, what you can do is create an LPCM DVD-V; most modern DVD-V players support this, and it sounds quite nice. (Even 192/24 'half sampled'). The watermark muting doesn't seem to engage: YMMV. (Even if your DVD-V player has a 192/24 dac -- some do now -- I believe the 192/24 LPCM rate is above the maximum data rate for the DVD-V spec anyways.)
Yes, that's indeed a good idea. I'm pretty sure DVD-V players can't detect Verance watermarking. (maybe DVD-a/DVD-v hybrids can?)
Of course, that is, if 1) they keep producing DVD-A's after this
Thei invested millions of dollars on DVD-A already. It would be easier and cheaper to make an scapegoat out of me and skin me alive.
2) any new versions of WinDVD become compromised and the big one
Even if Intervideo makes their player unpatcheable, you can always count on old versions. The only risk is that discs being pressed from now on might refuse WinDVD's decrypting key.
3)if the Recording Industry doesn't come down on InterVideo with the force of five thousand gods and the fire of a million suns.
Unlikely. What's Intervideo's fault if some russian hacker (always russians! These guys rock) managed to reverse engineer parts of their code? It's not like encrypting their code would be of much help if the guy is a professional hacker (and, considering the stunt he pulled, I would suppose he is)
I believe that #3 will occur, and it'll be so loud and violent you'll be able to hear it from space.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311513"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know... I can't see why IV must be punished because of this whole mess. And I don't see how could they have avoided it either.
seanyseansean: If you linked to RW directly, you would have had my design slashdotted (and Dibroms CSS goodness of course), that would have been cool.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311526"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Several articles are linking directly to RareWares. No worries, man
Excellent, lets distribute these from our free countries.
Excellent, lets distribute these from our free countries. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311532"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hehe. Well, I'm not confident on brazilian freedom that much these days. Standing up against Dolby regarding patents is one thing. Standing up against the RIAA regarding copy protection circumvention is another one, and much more serious.
If I receive a C&D letter, I'll immediately comply and take the binaries down. After all, I have nothing to gain being stubborn, and the files have been spread enough by now...
The dude that proposed that I host these tools at RW told me he can actually hear the watermark clumps in the middle of the music. So, if you rewatermark them, it's likely you'll only make quality worse :-P
Identifying the exact timing and location of these would be ... interesting. For one, to hear it. For another, to see what we could do with them.
If I receive a C&D letter, I'll immediately comply and take the binaries down. After all, I have nothing to gain being stubborn, and the files have been spread enough by now...
Hmm. Any chance of any further/newer versions before that happens?
Identifying the exact timing and location of these would be ... interesting. For one, to hear it. For another, to see what we could do with them.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311544"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ahhh... now you're talking!
Hmm. Any chance of any further/newer versions before that happens? [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311545"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not the developer, dude. Let's wait and see if he gifts us with another version soon.
So let me guess, the only way to rip this is to have a Audigy 2 card?
So let me guess, the only way to rip this is to have a Audigy 2 card?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311548"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nope, the soundcard is irrelevant.
Ahhh... now you're talking!
Working on this now. I have to run the Verance embedder in VMWare, since it actually is from a few years ago, and only likes to function under NT4, so it's kind of a bitch. But the first step here is to subtract watermarked audio from its original PCM, and see if we can find some sort of pattern.
The embedder has about five levels from weak to strong, so am starting at strong; not sure if this alters frequency or actual 'convolution', or what.
I'm not the developer, dude. Let's wait and see if he gifts us with another version soon.
I know you aren't Wise too, to make that very clear
So, what are folks using to burn the AUDIO_TS directory?
Above, someone made an ISO with the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS directory; I know Nero doesn't recognize AUDIO_TS -- is there anything that anyone else has been successful with besides Gear Pro?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311510"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Uhh, Nero will burn it just fine. You just make a DVD-Video compilation and drag the dvdaripper output into the AUDIO_TS it makes.
Uhh, Nero will burn it just fine. You just make a DVD-Video compilation and drag the dvdaripper output into the AUDIO_TS it makes.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311565"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
According to the guy that recommended me to host it at RW, DVD-As burned with Nero won't work on most players. The order in which the files are burned is important in DVD-A, and Nero - at least the version he has - doesn't know about this order.
That's why Gear is so strongly recommended in the readme.
I found the original Russian pages in Google's cache and used an online translator to translate it to english:
http://www.online-translator.com/url/tu_bo...6ipcountry%3DUS (http://www.online-translator.com/url/tu_body.asp?lang=en&promt_id=6021551586513019&url=http%3A%2F%2F72%2E14%2E207%2E104%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3A%5FnchvBm2ILQJ%3Adom%2Ehi%2Dfi%2Eru%2Fforum%2F30%2F29034%2F20%2BPPCMRipper%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox%2Da%26ipcountry%3DUS)
http://www.online-translator.com/url/tu_bo...6ipcountry%3DUS (http://www.online-translator.com/url/tu_body.asp?lang=en&promt_id=6021551586545775&url=http%3A%2F%2F72%2E14%2E207%2E104%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3AfqPtlSRHUgQJ%3Adom%2Ehi%2Dfi%2Eru%2Fforum%2F30%2F29034%2F21%2BPPCMRipper%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox%2Da%26ipcountry%3DUS)
Hope this helps
Doesn't work here. The translator header keeps being repeated down the screen.
Also, the original russian page was located here:
http://dvdaripper.narod.ru/ (http://dvdaripper.narod.ru/) (the developer pulled it down in face of the recent bru-ha-ha)
It didn't require translation.
...and it's gone
I got a phone call from a big local lawyer office (no fake, I checked the caller ID and the phone number really belongs to a lawyer office). They have been hired to make me stop distributing the DVD-A tools. It was a reasonably big talk, but I can summarize it with
They: we are giving you two choices, either you remove all references to those tools from your site now, or we'll have to take you to court.
Me: I'm already removing!
They: Thank-you for your cooperation.
Oh, well. It's been fun. I'm amazed at how well it spread in these two days (!), and I'm sure from now on you'll be able to find those tools in countless mirrors, p2p and the like.
Shine on!
R.
You did your best Roberto, nicely done.
and another chapter in the DRM book passes.
joey_mHope I'm not talking too much nonsense, but does that frequency analysis actually show that a song from The Doors has greater frequency content between 40-45 kHz than between 10-15kHz? Or is it a problem with either Audacity, the DVD-A authoring or my lack of knowledge on how to correctly read a frequency plot?
This is due to that fact, that signal and spectrum are digital.
Example:
Signal
__|______|______|
2Khz___3Khz___4Khz
Get a spectrum when every bar is at every 2Khz
What it will be ?
May be this:
________|______|_________
0Khz___2Khz___4Khz___6Kh
No.
This answer is wrong for digital representation.
Right answer will be:
=======|=====|=======
|_______|______|_______|
0Khz___2Khz___4Khz___6Kh
This is an effect of every frequency that has no exactly it's spectrum
counterpart to add a bit to every frequency in the spectrum.
So, digital spectrum can have any representation, even such a strange...
BTW:
Synaptic Line Noise, what you searched in google for ?
This freaking translator do not work, while I can read russian extremely well (because I'm russian ) so it would be interesting to see that article...
EDIT: ASCI graphs aren't my strongest talent
If you look at this spectrum analysis it looks kind of like the the content above 24000 kHz is a mirror of everything below 24000 kHz
picture link (http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.png/?id=586232)
This is an effect of every frequency that has no exactly it's spectrum
counterpart to add a bit to every frequency in the spectrum.
So, digital spectrum can have any representation, even such a strange...
Ummm.. I'd assume that the windowing was done correctly.
If you look at this spectrum analysis it looks kind of like the the content above 24000 kHz is a mirror of everything below 24000 kHz
Interesting...
This can be a mastering trick...
If you look at this spectrum analysis it looks kind of like the the content above 24000 kHz is a mirror of everything below 24000 kHz
picture link (http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.png/?id=586232)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311674"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Meet Mr. Aliasing.
If you look at this spectrum analysis it looks kind of like the the content above 24000 kHz is a mirror of everything below 24000 kHz
picture link (http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.png/?id=586232)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311674"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Meet Mr. Aliasing.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311677"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hmm, so I guess the question now is if it was mastered that way or if it's WinDVD that introduces it.
Hmm, so I guess the question now is if it was mastered that way or if it's WinDVD that introduces it.
My advice would be to test it on Metallica. These guys are always use new tech tricks. They even sell their songs in flac
EDIT: By the nature of this tools it can be the wrong samplerate selected too...
I suspect Intervideo will be contacted and asked to patch their software lest their unique key that is used to decrypt the MKB be blacklisted and prevented from decrypting future titles. Actually, they may blacklist it and assign a new one anyway to force people to upgrade to a patched version if they want to play newer titles.
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.
Here is what I got on a scan of Enter Sandman in Audition...
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7790/metallicadvdascan35mq.th.png) (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=metallicadvdascan35mq.png)
Doesn't quite look like the one posted earlier by markanini.
Here is what I got on a scan of Enter Sandman in Audition...
Hm. Doesn't seem to have much in the way of high-frequency content.... Looks like you could make it sound as good on a CD, to be honest. (Although you might miss out on 5.1 sound; is this recording multichannel?)
Here is what I got on a scan of Enter Sandman in Audition...
Hm. Doesn't seem to have much in the way of high-frequency content.... Looks like you could make it sound as good on a CD, to be honest. (Although you might miss out on 5.1 sound; is this recording multichannel?)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311760"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, it is multichannel.
...and it's gone
I got a phone call from a big local lawyer office (no fake, I checked the caller ID and the phone number really belongs to a lawyer office). They have been hired to make me stop distributing the DVD-A tools. It was a reasonably big talk, but I can summarize it with
They: we are giving you two choices, either you remove all references to those tools from your site now, or we'll have to take you to court.
Me: I'm already removing!
They: Thank-you for your cooperation.
Oh, well. It's been fun. I'm amazed at how well it spread in these two days (!), and I'm sure from now on you'll be able to find those tools in countless mirrors, p2p and the like.
Shine on!
R.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=311652")
Groovie! [a href="http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/61520]http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/61520[/url]
Groovie! http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/61520 (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/61520)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311785"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Cool.
I feel like experiencing a special moment in audio history...
Folks, especially cyaneyes (if you're still there): What about the mastering quality of DVD-As, now that you can analyse it in a wav editor ?
Jesus, these guys will end up making a martyr out of me
Now we'll have DVD Jon and DVD-A Roberto :-P
They: we are giving you two choices ...
Me: I'm already removing!
They: Thank you for your cooperation.
Oh, well. It's been fun. I'm amazed at how well it spread in these two days (!), and I'm sure from now on you'll be able to find those tools in countless mirrors, p2p and the like.
Shine on!
Hehe!
thank you very much roberto!
P.S. they've been pretty fast
Now we'll have DVD Jon and DVD-A Roberto :-P
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311798"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No offense, but I'd rather think of DVD-A MaximA
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311745"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I haven't tried it out, but I imagine it would. DVD-Audio, unlike CD-Audio, is stored as data on a DVD. Therefore it won't have the issues that CD-Audio streams have.
All you have to do to get a 6 channel version is to go into windows control panel sound settings and change your speakers to 5.1 Doesnt even matter if you have got a stereo soundcard (I do) then the app will rip the 6 channel version if thats what you choose in the dvd menu. I have done a 6 channel wav from REM's In Time DVD at 96khz and a 192khz stereo version as well. Both worked but the 192khz version came out at double speed and needed a 200% stretch resample in Audition. Anyone else have this issue with the high res stereo tracks?
EDIT: After trying another 192khz, this time from the decrypted dvd rather than the original source, it worked fine.
Halleck
you think you'd really notice a audible difference? Doubt it.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311234"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wouldn't go there. Why bother with DVD-A in the first place when there is already a multichannel DTS track
Good question. Someone should have asked the industry this a few years ago.
Recording or mastering at higher bitrates/sampling rates is technically defensible. Playback at >Redbook is probably pointless. Or do you really think you can hear stuff up above 24 kHz and need a dynamic range >96 dB for playback?
? Anyway, that's like selling someone a CD-DA when the source is really a 192kbps MP3. Most people wouldn't notice the difference, but how would they feel about it?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311239"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The difference between 'higher res' DVD-A and 48/24 is far less likely to be audible than CD-DA vs 193 kbps mp3. The analogy really doesn't hold.
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311745"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bump, I'm hoping someone can answer the questions above. Thanks.
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311745"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bump, I'm hoping someone can answer the questions above. Thanks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311942"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I highly doubt it, because the tools aren't extracting the audio the way EAC does it. The tools fire up WinDVD, which plays the audio back, and that is what is being recorded to the hard drive. I've also come to doubt the reliability of the tools: I launched PPCMRipper with '192000' as argument on 96000Hz content, and the frequency analysis of the resulting .wav files looked like as if it was genuine 192kHz content as well...
Anyway, the only way I can think of to make sure that the resulting .wav files are bit perfect copies, would be to be able to decode .mlp files (extracted with DVD-A Explorer) and compare them to the files extracted by PPCMRipper. But an MLP encoder/decoder costs $2,500, and if you had one, you wouldn't be using PPCMRipper in the first place :-/
I remember Roberto saying he had a copy of a MLP decoder: maybe he could do such a test, for the rest of us who don't own one?
I remember Roberto saying he had a copy of a MLP decoder: maybe he could do such a test, for the rest of us who don't own one?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311958"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't own a DVD-A.
And even if I did, in light of recent events, I wouldn't rip it and announce my feat.
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311745"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I imagine it would be bit-perfect, because dvdaripper is essentially copying (with decryption) some files from a DVD. Being "files", they must be identical to the source. It's like copying a .zip file from a DVD - if it's not bit-perfect then you'd have big trouble.
2) any new versions of WinDVD become compromised and the big one
Even if Intervideo makes their player unpatcheable, you can always count on old versions. The only risk is that discs being pressed from now on might refuse WinDVD's decrypting key.
A disc can't refuse a decryption key. A disc is a passive device.
Disc in the future may not contain the encrypted Media key for WinDVD's decrypting key,
so WinDVD can't calculate the Media key anymore.
Please try to use an exact language.
I imagine it would be bit-perfect, because dvdaripper is essentially copying (with decryption) some files from a DVD. Being "files", they must be identical to the source. It's like copying a .zip file from a DVD - if it's not bit-perfect then you'd have big trouble.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311989"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We're talking about the resulting .wav files, which are generated by having the decrypted DVD-A played back by WinDVD. Since I don't know exactly what's going in on during that process, I'm not sure of anything. Especially since setting up WinDVD correctly for playback is an important part of the process. Anyway it certainly can't be compared to lossless digital extraction as with .zip or .flac files.
I don't own a DVD-A.
And even if I did, in light of recent events, I wouldn't rip it and announce my feat.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311986"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The one guy who gets a copy of a MLP decoder, doesn't own a DVD-A :/
Seriously though, I understand your reserve about that, you've already taken some substantial risks by hosting the tools and advertising them on this forum. But for what it's worth, a decoder (MLPPROOF.exe in your case, if I'm not mistaken) should not leave any kind of watermarking on the resulting files...
Please try to use an exact language.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312008"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I missed you too, Frank
This is the stuff I have to deal with now:
http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png (http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png)
I wonder if being sued wouldn't have been nicer :B
This is the stuff I have to deal with now:
http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png (http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png)[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312085"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've seen this kind of behaviour for years, yet I still can't picture it IRL. What kind of moron actually talks like that? or even writes that way?
Please try to use an exact language.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312008"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I missed you too, Frank
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312076"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Roberto.
Do you still have 10 fingers on your hands? ;-)
Hi Roberto.
Do you still have 10 fingers on your hand? ;-)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312091"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Honestly, I have 10 in both my handS. Only five in each hand... :-B
Edit: And - sorry if I don't get it but - what was the purpose of that question?
Amazing, this is what I get for not visiting for a few days - I miss out the chance to properly extract my few DVDA discs.
Oh well, I guess it wouldn't make a difference anyway, on my crappy SB Live. (I'm just overly anal about it, hehe. And I can't even properly get the ac3/dts streams out of some discs either, because they are parts of the menu itself... blah)
edit: kekeke nevermind, it DID got around on the web quite fast.
We're talking about the resulting .wav files, which are generated by having the decrypted DVD-A played back by WinDVD. Since I don't know exactly what's going in on during that process, I'm not sure of anything. Especially since setting up WinDVD correctly for playback is an important part of the process. Anyway it certainly can't be compared to lossless digital extraction as with .zip or .flac files.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312011"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If a file can be perfectly copied, it can be perfectly decoded. Unless the decoder is buggy...
It's like copying a password-protected .zip file from DVD to your hard drive, removing the password, burning it on another DVD, then extracting its content. As long as the file can be perfectly copied back and forth between your hard drive and the DVD, the contents are safe.
I guess you can test its bit-perfectness by repeating the ripping process multiple times and comparing the results.
edit: typos
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=311745")
Bump, I'm hoping someone can answer the questions above. Thanks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311942"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What, am I not important enough for you to read my post?
[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368&view=findpost&p=311874]http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=311874[/url]
I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?
Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311745"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I haven't tried it out, but I imagine it would. DVD-Audio, unlike CD-Audio, is stored as data on a DVD. Therefore it won't have the issues that CD-Audio streams have.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311874"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edit: I would assume from other recent posts that this is as lossless as using an audio recording program (like TotalRecorder) to save audio from CDs. Perhaps someday the relevant parts of WinDVD could be extracted and it would be easy to make bit-perfect DVD-A rips.
Recording or mastering at higher bitrates/sampling rates is technically defensible. Playback at >Redbook is probably pointless. Or do you really think you can hear stuff up above 24 kHz and need a dynamic range >96 dB for playback?
If the only issue at hand was frequency response, then that'd be true. There are also issues of impulse response, which has been shown to be audible up to an 80khz equivalency in regards to time domain placement and soundstage; and also the fact that the "96dB" number only happens 'in a perfect world'.
It doesn't take much to make a believer out of someone who's a member of the "Good Enough Police", some of whom even say "32khz/14bit is good enough!". Again, maybe in a perfect world, with perfect mastering.
Have you ever seen an impulse, quick transient (pin drop) or series of quick transients (guitar strum) go in and out of 44.1/16, or even go into 192/24 and then be -resampled and redithered- to 44.1/16?
Try recording a 10khz square wave at 44.1/16 versus 192/24. Try looking at the pre and post echo of a 10uS 'click' at 44.1/16 vs 192/24. Record a 980hz sine at even 48/24 and resample to 44.1, and drop bit depth to 16 from 24 without dither. Look at the frequency response and aliasing. And then do the same WITH noise shaping and notice how much noise you have to *add* to shift energies in the frequency domain away from that aliasing.
This will fall on "deaf" ears I'm sure; but I"m just so tired of hearing the "44.1/16 is more than we'll EVER need" defense. Either your playback setup is as cheap as a pair of iPod earbuds, or your ACTUAL beef is with the fact that higher resolution formats and systems are either one, too "expensive", or two, too "copy protected".
44.1/16 would be an OK delivery method if the mastering steps going into it were PERFECT, and the resultant output actually *was* a slow-rolloff, 20-20khz 96dB signal. In actuality, this is rarely the case, and as I said, it would be "good" or "ok" not great. I could go on for hours about this; 44.1/16 allows for very little "wiggle room" in the final product, and on sources that are mastered in a mediocre manner, the result is horrendous.
Nothing like compressed 8-bit equivalency with a brickwall cutoff filter to sound oh-so-pleasant. (I don't know who the record companies employ to mix and master these days, but they -must- be going for the cheapest bidder or the guy with the best beer.) HR PCM has its place in the output chain beyond high frequencies and 'bat hearing'. And this sort of proof doesnt lay in the realm of voodoo and incident waves; the benefits described are strictly in the audible region.
In other words no one here have the capability to show that the copy is a bit for bit identical to the DVD-A?
Question: is it possible to rip CPPM protected DVDS discs, WITHOUT reburning them? I lack blank discs (and the required double layer discs due to the size and sector order, or even a DL burner for that matter) to do that.
Or can DAEmon mount the physical files created by Gear Pro? It does not list dv1 files as supported ones...
edit: Daemon CAN progress the dv1 files. And it plays fine in winDVD from that. With the "silence after 30 secs" protection though.
In other words no one here have the capability to show that the copy is a bit for bit identical to the DVD-A?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312149"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No one here has a proper MLP decoder, so no one can compare the decrypted files to the professional decoded ones.
so yea, I mean, no, no one can. But it would be a safe bet if you ask me.
Perhaps the author of these tools could be asked about this?
No one here has a proper MLP decoder, so no one can compare the decrypted files to the professional decoded ones.
so yea, I mean, no, no one can. But it would be a safe bet if you ask me.
Perhaps the author of these tools could be asked about this?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312153"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good luck finding him, and then, getting him to answer you
He got very, very freaked out with the publicity.
Well, I kinda thought that you could've asked this - but I guess you can't contact him anymore then.
back to ripping. Is it normal that the channels are all mixed up in the extracted wavs?
DaemonTools can mount the Gear Images
Folks, especially cyaneyes (if you're still there): What about the mastering quality of DVD-As, now that you can analyse it in a wav editor ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=311788")
Sorry.. I skipped out for a couple days
The only two samples I have access to are the Doors and Yes clips posted earlier in this thread.. I looked for DVD-As at the local music store but was unsurprisingly not sucessful at finding any.
I have an order in for a couple from an online store [a href="http://store.acousticsounds.com/category.cfm?section=dvd&id=23](AcousticSounds)[/url] that seems to stock 300-500 of them. I'm looking forward to analyzing Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing". The CD is smashed, clipped and limited to all hell (-9.78 for a prog rock album!) I don't expect the stereo DVD-A track will be much better, but I have high hopes for the 5.1 mix, which I'll then convert to stereo with foobar. I'll be sure to report back when they arrive.
I don't own a DVD-A.
And even if I did, in light of recent events, I wouldn't rip it and announce my feat.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311986"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or... maybe I'll play it safe and send you a PM.
I've got some spectral analysis pics up of some DVD-A rips I've done (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35419) if anyone's interested in seeing more...
EDIT: Previous post sounded a bit "fanboy"
Folks, especially cyaneyes (if you're still there): What about the mastering quality of DVD-As, now that you can analyse it in a wav editor ?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311788"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry.. I skipped out for a couple days
I don't mind...
The only two samples I have access to are the Doors and Yes clips posted earlier in this thread.. I looked for DVD-As at the local music store but was unsurprisingly not sucessful at finding any.
Aren't those records a bit older ones and not so suitable for that test because they're "naturally unclipressed"?
I'm looking forward to analyzing Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing". The CD is smashed, clipped and limited to all hell (-9.78 for a prog rock album!) I don't expect the stereo DVD-A track will be much better, but I have high hopes for the 5.1 mix, which I'll then convert to stereo with foobar. I'll be sure to report back when they arrive.
I yearn for your report. Unfortunately, I don't own a DVD drive, but maybe now I'll need it soon for my new DVD-As.
From the few examples that I've read about at HA (e.g. guruboolez' "Dance of death" DVD-A) they also seem to be affected by the loudness war.
I yearn for your report. Unfortunately, I don't own a DVD drive, but maybe now I'll need it soon for my new DVD-As.
From the few examples that I've read about at HA (e.g. guruboolez' "Dance of death" DVD-A) they also seem to be affected by the loudness war.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312283"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have that disc, I'll check it out.
for the record, my other disc (Linkin Park - Reanimation) sounds clear and crisp, no wonder though as it was (probably) mastered on computers to begin with, being a lame electronic remix album of LP's previous works. No clipping and the like, the difference between that and the AC3s I previously extracted are quite easily audible even on a simple set. The LFE is a bit too quite on the MLP version though, possibly because they tuned up the AC3 version to sound louder on the regular cheap DVD Video sets. Well, its only 48khz 24bit for the 5.1, and 24bit 44,1khz for the Stereo mix (!!!), so no wonder that it's not that breathtaking, it sounds better then the AC3 mainly because the latter is lossy.
I haven't done comparison between the CD version and the stereo MLP, it would be irrevelant - its stored in the same sampling rates. And it's a crap album anyway. (only has one nice track, incidentally that one is probably their only good vocal track since the EP)
Aren't those records a bit older ones and not so suitable for that test because they're "naturally unclipressed"?
From the few examples that I've read about at HA (e.g. guruboolez' "Dance of death" DVD-A) they also seem to be affected by the loudness war.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312283"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, I think the Doors and Yes examples are pretty well mastered on CD anyway.
As far as what we'll all start to find when we look at DVD-As, I imagine it's going to be a mixed bag. Mastering engineers charge by the hour, and I can't imagine that many record companies would pay to have two separate stereo masterings done. After all, they're already getting "the best" - in their minds - in the form of hypercompressed CD masterings. So they probably just have the compressed 192khz/24-bit stereo digital master (for example) resampled to one frequency for the DVD-A and 44.1 for the CD.
I think that most surround mixes will be much better. It's still more of a niche interest, and since the only place that mixing/mastering will be played will be home theater systems, the engineers can rationalize that they should match the levels of DVD movies. Also, not compressing the surround mix as much emphasizes the surround effect. If a listener hears compressed, constant loudness coming from every speaker, it's more difficult to place instruments. Less compression in surround allows room for instruments to breathe, you might say.
Of course, this all assumes competent recording practices, too! I've heard depressing stories about bands insisting that the engineer apply Waves L1 limiter
on every track of the mix. Smash the drums, smash the bass.. mix them, and then apply MORE limiting at mastering.
It's interesting to note, that as long as the disc is not watermarked, You can listen to the MLP tracks at full quality on any card, not just on a Audigy 2 - bypassing the very annoying limitation in WinDVD.
If the audio is watermarked, though, the sound will kill after 30 secs of playback as reported before.
At least, my Dance of Death DVDA disc played back even better once decrypted, then it did on the original, full 5.1 instead of just the two front speakers. (It appears that it had no watermarking)
Ok, messing around with these tools a little bit. I only have one dvd-a and it's essentially a classical recording so there's not much high-frequency content anyway - but while the wav itself comes out 96k 24bit, it looks like the actual audio was just upcoverted from 16 bit.
In Audition you can check this through Analyze > Statistics, at the bottom it'll list 'actual bit depth'. For 32 bit stuff (and since Audition sees 24 bit stuff as 32 bit ) this should read 'float'.
I'm assuming it's just a mastering error on this disc, but it's something to watch out for - it's easy to add the extra bits to make a file 24 bit but it doesn't necessarily mean the extra resolution is being put to use.
Recording or mastering at higher bitrates/sampling rates is technically defensible. Playback at >Redbook is probably pointless. Or do you really think you can hear stuff up above 24 kHz and need a dynamic range >96 dB for playback?
If the only issue at hand was frequency response, then that'd be true. There are also issues of impulse response, which has been shown to be audible up to an 80khz equivalency in regards to time domain placement and soundstage; and also the fact that the "96dB" number only happens 'in a perfect world'.
It doesn't take much to make a believer out of someone who's a member of the "Good Enough Police", some of whom even say "32khz/14bit is good enough!". Again, maybe in a perfect world, with perfect mastering.
Have you ever seen an impulse, quick transient (pin drop) or series of quick transients (guitar strum) go in and out of 44.1/16, or even go into 192/24 and then be -resampled and redithered- to 44.1/16?
Try recording a 10khz square wave at 44.1/16 versus 192/24. Try looking at the pre and post echo of a 10uS 'click' at 44.1/16 vs 192/24. Record a 980hz sine at even 48/24 and resample to 44.1, and drop bit depth to 16 from 24 without dither. Look at the frequency response and aliasing. And then do the same WITH noise shaping and notice how much noise you have to *add* to shift energies in the frequency domain away from that aliasing.
This will fall on "deaf" ears I'm sure; but I"m just so tired of hearing the "44.1/16 is more than we'll EVER need" defense. Either your playback setup is as cheap as a pair of iPod earbuds, or your ACTUAL beef is with the fact that higher resolution formats and systems are either one, too "expensive", or two, too "copy protected".
44.1/16 would be an OK delivery method if the mastering steps going into it were PERFECT, and the resultant output actually *was* a slow-rolloff, 20-20khz 96dB signal. In actuality, this is rarely the case, and as I said, it would be "good" or "ok" not great. I could go on for hours about this; 44.1/16 allows for very little "wiggle room" in the final product, and on sources that are mastered in a mediocre manner, the result is horrendous.
Nothing like compressed 8-bit equivalency with a brickwall cutoff filter to sound oh-so-pleasant. (I don't know who the record companies employ to mix and master these days, but they -must- be going for the cheapest bidder or the guy with the best beer.) HR PCM has its place in the output chain beyond high frequencies and 'bat hearing'. And this sort of proof doesnt lay in the realm of voodoo and incident waves; the benefits described are strictly in the audible region.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312138"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you're skirting rather clsoe to TOC violation with some of these claims.
Show me the DBT results that confirm the *audibility* of >22kHz stuff, preferably with musical signals, and the deaf ears will start listening. *That* is my beef. And lets' not talk about effects of bad mastering -- that's an implementation issue, not an inherent one, with 16/44.1. Nor about the old 'look how distorted a square wave is"! move. It does not require 'perfection' to implement Redbook properly.
icedragon,
that was a very clear explanation, thanks for giving that amount of detail.
From the few examples that I've read about at HA (e.g. guruboolez' "Dance of death" DVD-A) they also seem to be affected by the loudness war.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=312283")
I have that disc, I'll check it out.
I remember someone claiming that he can hear clipping (at least on the stereo track), I can't find the thread. Guruboolez asked him for some clipping positions. If you're still in this thread here, guruboolez, what did you find out ?
I think that most surround mixes will be much better. It's still more of a niche interest, and since the only place that mixing/mastering will be played will be home theater systems, the engineers can rationalize that they should match the levels of DVD movies. Also, not compressing the surround mix as much emphasizes the surround effect. If a listener hears compressed, constant loudness coming from every speaker, it's more difficult to place instruments. Less compression in surround allows room for instruments to breathe, you might say.
Oh yeah, I agree. It's even noticable on 2 channels. Hypercompression sounds like the space is filled with a mush of instruments.
Here's a direct [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33972&view=findpost&p=296934]link[/url] to a post by skamp. He ripped the 5.1 audio of a music video DVD and unfortunately, the tracks are badly compressed.
If the only issue at hand was frequency response, then that'd be true. There are also issues of impulse response, which has been shown to be audible up to an 80khz equivalency in regards to time domain placement and soundstage; and also the fact that the "96dB" number only happens 'in a perfect world'.
Right, stop there. You're heading straight into the "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" area. Really. Even if you've spent the last 20 years in a recording studio.
The accuracy of impulse responses in regards to time domain placement and sound stage has
no equivalence in the frequency domain. What you're talking about are interaural cues from transients. They work down to about 10 microseconds, which you might believe implies a frequency response of 100kHz, of a sample point spacing of 10 microseconds which implies a sampling frequency of 100kHz (and hence a frequency response of 50kHz).
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. You can represent that 10 microsecond delay between two signals using a standard 44.1kHz sampled system. Try it in Cool Edit if you don't believe me.
It doesn't take much to make a believer out of someone who's a member of the "Good Enough Police", some of whom even say "32khz/14bit is good enough!". Again, maybe in a perfect world, with perfect mastering.
It might do for me, but there are plenty here who would hear that 16kHZ low pass, and probably the time domain ringing it introduces too!
Have you ever seen an impulse, quick transient (pin drop) or series of quick transients (guitar strum) go in and out of 44.1/16, or even go into 192/24 and then be -resampled and redithered- to 44.1/16?
Yes, have you ever seen the impulse response of a real microphone? A real loudspeaker? They're not that impressive, are they? How about the impulse response of the human auditory system? It doesn't strictly have one in the linear sense, but have you seen signals the brain receives from a single audible impulse (click)?
Try recording a 10khz square wave at 44.1/16 versus 192/24. Try looking at the pre and post echo of a 10uS 'click' at 44.1/16 vs 192/24.
Better still, trying recording a 10MHz square wave - wow - it completely wrecks that! What does it prove, in audible terms? Well, I don't know - can you hear all the features of a 10MHz square wave? How about all the features of a 10us click? etc etc
You're implying an understanding of human hearing which isn't generally accepted. Of course low pass filtering a signal with high frequency components changes what it looks like - but does it change what it
sounds like?
This is the fundamental question which all your facts simply do not address.
Record a 980hz sine at even 48/24 and resample to 44.1, and drop bit depth to 16 from 24 without dither.
OK, now you're just being silly. You finally suggest an example with a sensible audible signal, but then you break one of the basics of sampling theory, show the predictable nasty results, and suggest that proves something?
Anyway, enough. The scepticism here stems from the lack of objective or even rigorous (double blind ABX) subjective proof that more than ~20kHz bandwidth is required.
If you have some new evidence on this subject, please bring it.
Cheers,
David.
You can represent that 10 microsecond delay between two signals using a standard 44.1kHz sampled system. Try it in Cool Edit if you don't believe me.
Cheers,
David.
How to do this then ?
Hi
Can someone please anonymously upload DVDARipper and PPCMRipper to a binary group somewhere on usenet? I missed it and I have about 15 DVD-A's that I would like to try it on.
TIA
You can represent that 10 microsecond delay between two signals using a standard 44.1kHz sampled system. Try it in Cool Edit if you don't believe me.
Cheers,
David.
How to do this then ?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312800"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure if CoolEdit can do this (I don't own it), but from a theoretical standpoint it is perfectly possible - just delay one signal by 0.441 samples. An implementation that supports sub-sample delay would write the output as if it were simply sampling different points on the continuous waveform.
In other words, it would be something like upsampling to 44.1 Mhz, delaying by 441 samples then downsampling back to 44.1 Khz. Although a real implementation wouldn't be nearly that slow.
I would like to rip all my DVD Audio disc and add them to my lossless CD collection.
I can create 6 mono waves, but I cannot easily combine them and compress to FLAC. I can combine them into one multichannel wav into Audition but that takes ages. I tried besweet but from 6 48/24 wav files it created one multichannel 48/16 full of static noise. On top of that I was not able to compress the Audition multichannel wav file to FLAC (in Foobar).
Could anybody suggest how to do this?
Thanks
Tomas
Next time, please start a new thread.
The kludgy solution I found to this problem was:
- Multiplex the wavs with Windows Media Encoder (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/default.aspx) into one WMA Lossless file (the AVI solution Microsoft recommends added a gap on the end of my files)
- Decode the WMA Lossless file with Microsoft's Lossless to PCM Converter (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/utilities.aspx)
- Use foobar2000's diskwriter to convert the multichannel WAV into a WAV format FLAC accepts
- Encode the WAV to FLAC
A sample 2ch DVD-Video is being posted to usenet for the forum to analyze comment on.
24 bit 96KHz stereo in a 3.8gig DVD_Video image in
alt.binaries.dvd.music
You will need a good usenet server to participate
Next time, please start a new thread.
The kludgy solution I found to this problem was:- Multiplex the wavs with Windows Media Encoder (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/default.aspx) into one WMA Lossless file (the AVI solution Microsoft recommends added a gap on the end of my files)
- Decode the WMA Lossless file with Microsoft's Lossless to PCM Converter (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/utilities.aspx)
- Use foobar2000's diskwriter to convert the multichannel WAV into a WAV format FLAC accepts
- Encode the WAV to FLAC
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313682"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I misunderstood the -s switch in ppcmripper.exe command. Without it you get multichannel wav that is compatible with FLAC frontend. No need for any muxing.
Thanks anyway.
Tomas
I'm not sure if CoolEdit can do this (I don't own it), but from a theoretical standpoint it is perfectly possible - just delay one signal by 0.441 samples. An implementation that supports sub-sample delay would write the output as if it were simply sampling different points on the continuous waveform.
In other words, it would be something like upsampling to 44.1 Mhz, delaying by 441 samples then downsampling back to 44.1 Khz. Although a real implementation wouldn't be nearly that slow.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312945"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can do exactly that in Cool Edit, but I'd choose easier numbers to prove the point! i.e. just 10x sampling, rather than 1000x.
Cool Edit's native tone generator will do sub-sample interchannel delays easily. Try generating a 20kHz sine wave with an interchannel phase difference of 30 degrees. At 44.1kHZ sampling, this is much less than 1 sample - zoon into the waveform to see how well it works.
Cheers,
David.
could someone please post hashes of the tools so people who don't feel comfortable leeching random binaries out of p2p networks can feel a bit safer?
also, http://tor.eff.org/ (http://tor.eff.org/) would provide anonymous hosting[1], with the drawback being that anyone accessing the stuff would need to use tor as well.
thanks
[1] not the guys provide it but one can setup a tor node that offers a service under a given name without being able to be traced back to an ip address.
could someone please post hashes of the tools so people who don't feel comfortable leeching random binaries out of p2p networks can feel a bit safer?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314471"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here are the md5's of the executables taken directly from rarewares when they were still there.
b5f7c4825d54997e73193cffce2f89aa *WinDVD.dll
e47e89c8ccb264be812a36cfc0256f62 *WinPCM.dll
a6860c89095ac0a32b03ee70f880d652 *DVDAExplorer_a7.exe
eb07960ac5ad3953fd32e62210c00969 *DVDARipper.exe
34a65de31d52056e5b6927907133a474 *PPCMRipper.exe
This is the stuff I have to deal with now:
http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png (http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png)[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312085"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've seen this kind of behaviour for years, yet I still can't picture it IRL. What kind of moron actually talks like that? or even writes that way?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312089"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Probably the lawyer office that made him remove the files, just to check
There is another sample rip for you all to analyze. It is posted on the usenet in:
alt binaries dvd music
I'm sure that by now, someone has noticed the channels are out of order on playback. This is because DVD-Audio's layout is LF, RF, LS, RS, C, LFE, and any PC media player uses LF, RF, C, LFE, LS, RS. So to correctly play back DVD-Audio in Foobar2000, you will need to use a WAV editor such as Audition to swap LS and C, and RS and LFE.
I'm sure that by now, someone has noticed the channels are out of order on playback. This is because DVD-Audio's layout is LF, RF, LS, RS, C, LFE, and any PC media player uses LF, RF, C, LFE, LS, RS. So to correctly play back DVD-Audio in Foobar2000, you will need to use a WAV editor such as Audition to swap LS and C, and RS and LFE.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=315627"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How do I do that?
For the people who doubt that PPCMripper really delivers bit-perfect lossless audio copies from MLP encoded DVD-audio discs, I have performed some tests using my own made DVD-audio recordings to see if this statement is true.
Conclusion: Yes, it's lossless
The original 24/96 audio files are encoding to 5.1 MLP format with MLP Encoder, subsequently burned to DVD-R with Discwelder Chrome II and finally extracted from the DVD-audio disc back to WAV format by PPCMripper. Bit-by-bit comparison of the extracted WAV files show that audio tracks are indeed exactly identical to the original files. Alignment of the tracks in a multitrack editor is however necessary to do a correct phase inversion summation check. Inaccurate DAE offsets are unfortunately present during audio extraction of DVD-audio discs as is the case for audio CD's.
When properly aligned the sum of the phase inverted copy and the original file however yield perfect cancellation (sum zero in 24 bit).
Three remarks.
1. The order of the six extracted mono WAV files after PPCMripper with the -s option is the following:
0: Lf
1: Rf
2: C
3: LFE
4: Ls
5: Rs
using the following input order group in Discwelder Chrome II: Group 1: Lf, Rf and group 2: C, LFE, Ls, Rs. The latter order is standard for PC media players, but not necessarily correct for standalone DVD players (Lf Rf Ls Rs C LFE).
Remark 2:
For continuous (live) audio tracks on DVD-audio, the method of ripping by PPCMripper is not entirely lossless. The copied tracks when sequentially glued together show gaps of 10 msec of missing audio between the separate audio tracks. This unaccuracy is probably related to limitations in the WinDVD media playback routines. Same effect of small audible gaps sometimes occurs in real-time listening of the DVD-audio discs on my PC via WinDVD.
Remark 3:
The DVDAexplorer program allows you to extract individual audio tracks in MLP format, which files turn out to be perfectly playable in the Surcode MLP decoder. However it does not seem possible to extract one big single MLP file spanning more tracks, so it is not possible to binary compare the input MLP file (normally all tracks are embedded in one single MLP file as e.g. on mine own DVD-audios) with the extracted shorter MLP files taken from the DVD-audio copy.
Software:
Windows 2000 SP4
WinDVD 5.3 including DVD-audio pack
PPCMripper 007
DVDAexplorer A7
Hope that this information is helpful and may spark some more interest in the high-resolution, but slowly dying, DVD-audio medium. But remember: please buy when you think the disc is worth its superior audio quality.
Hippo
Thanks for your input. Hopefully Remark 2 can be fixed with some sort of software wizardry.
Is there way to decode mlp?
I'm sure that by now, someone has noticed the channels are out of order on playback. This is because DVD-Audio's layout is LF, RF, LS, RS, C, LFE, and any PC media player uses LF, RF, C, LFE, LS, RS. So to correctly play back DVD-Audio in Foobar2000, you will need to use a WAV editor such as Audition to swap LS and C, and RS and LFE.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=315627")
(offtopic: Since i used this forum [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34660&hl=]before[/url] to get some info i used for developing my program i feel obliged to atleast mention it here. So im mentioning it now: announcement (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=662555#post662555))
ontopic:
Someone posted (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=690840#post690840) the following which might be interesting if you want to correct the channel order:
I thought there would be no way to fix the channel order of my ripped DVD-A files with free tools - until I found your program.
I'm trying to rip my Nine Inch Nails "With Teeth" DualDisc DVD-A disc. First of all, I didn't realize how much of a PITA this process is. I used DVDARipper to decrypt the files and put them on my hard drive. I then tried to run PPCMRipper, and realized I'd need a decrypted version on a disc for this to work, so I ripped the DVD portion as well, and made an iso using Nero, and then used Daemon Tools to mount the iso as a drive.
Here's where I start to get confused. I was able to get the multichannel wave files, and it says above that the channel alignment is all messed up. I downloaded the trial of Adobe Audition to attempt to figure this out, but am really confused. Could someone give a tutorial of the process to correct the channel alignment of these files using Adobe Audition (either from multichannel wave source files, or from 6 mono wave source files). I saw an option for a multichannel encoder in Audition, but thats as much as I was able to figure out on my own. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: this would be so much easier if there was just a Winamp (or Foobar, but for some reason I just don't like using that) plugin to play MLP files, but from what I understand MLP is a closed system so it would be impossible. Am I correct in saying this?
It's very very very closed for encoding, I'm not sure on the decoding front.
Is there way to decode mlp?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=315866")
Solution: Import the MLP files into Discwelder Chrome and burn the tracks to DVD-audio.
Even the Surcode MLP encoder/decoder does not have a straightforward option to decode MLP files to WAV format from a given MLP file. The decoding feature in the program is normally a final validity check which can be automatically started after assembly of the 6 separate mono wav files into the encoded MLP file. The resultant decoded WAV files are written back into three pairs of stereo WAV files. However it is not possible with the software to directly output WAV files from a ready-made MLP stored on the HD. It is possible to play an independently created MLP file over three stereo output devices of the computer soundcard using the Surcode MLP program in high-resolution audio, but that's all.
Perhaps it is good to mention that the Windows drivers of WinDVD still truncates all digital audio to 16 bit and 48 kHz upon playback (at least for non-Audigy soundcards) even when your soundcard hardware is capable of higher sample rates and bit resolutions. Decryption of the DVD-A discs with unrestricted digital output does not change this. This stands in contrast to the full audio quality of the WAVs that come out of PPCMripper with up to 24/192 bit resolution.
Note that on a standard 2.8-3.0 GHz PentiumIV computer the whole MLP procedure may take some total 1 hour per single hour of 24/96 5.1 music for the encoding and check-up decoding together. Actually rather slowly and thus almost in real-time computer terms with the encoding step being the slowest part of the whole process. To be honest the speed of encoding and the compression efficiency are actually rather modest compared to e.g. Monkey Audio and FLAC.
You can guess that I cannot provide the Surcode MLP encoder software to the community. If you consider to buy the program here are the cheapest prices around. In fact, you can buy a lot of DVD-A's for the money given below.
Price of the Surcode MLP encoder: $2120 (with an optional 10% discount).
Price of Discwelder Chrome II: $2540 (with an optional 10% discount).
Bundle ChromeII/Surcode MLP: $4242 (with an optional 10% discount).
See: [a href="http://www.digitalproaudio.com/store/xcart/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=22]http://www.digitalproaudio.com/store/xcart...nufacturerid=22[/url]
Surely the only purpose of seperating out the channels or using the mlp is if you want to select your tracks, or if you need to use a dvd9 rather than a dvd5 - most dvd-audio seem to fit on a dvd5, and those that are larger can be accomodated if you loose the video_ts directory. It is possible to 'rip' the entire disc and make a clone using dvdaripper - this will of course not work on a standalone player because of the watermarking, but the same will happen if you have extracted the tracks and recompiled it. Is there a trick I'm missing?
It is possible to 'rip' the entire disc and make a clone using dvdaripper - this will of course not work on a standalone player because of the watermarking, but the same will happen if you have extracted the tracks and recompiled it. Is there a trick I'm missing?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316651"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It should play in standalone player if i understood correctly.
I don't think so - the software doesn't touch the watermark, so it can't work. What you would need on top is a programme to clean out the watermark. Now if you know of one then you'd be in business.
It should play in standalone player if i understood correctly.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316809"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not exactly. Without cleaning the watermark, it will play if converted to DVD-Video. DVD-V doesn't check for the watermark. The wav files re-authored to DVD-V can be 96KHz or 48Khz stereo lossless PCM or compressed multichannel.
The trouble is the only way to get something approaching the quality for multi-channel would be to encode the wav files as DTS 5.1 96 kHz. Unfortunately only one programme has that ability - DTS Encoder Pro which costs an arm and a leg.
Has anyone figured out how to get rid of the gap between ripped dvd-a tracks? I have a few live discs and that gap is annoying! Even if DVD-A Explorer would let you grap more then one track in a chunk I think it would solve the problem.
Has anyone figured out how to get rid of the gap between ripped dvd-a tracks? I have a few live discs and that gap is annoying! Even if DVD-A Explorer would let you grap more then one track in a chunk I think it would solve the problem.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318524"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Look for DVD-A authoring software that advertises "gapless". DiscWelder does but only for wav files and not individual MLP files. For MLP to be gapless, all songs must be compressed together in one big file.
For MLP to be gapless, all songs must be compressed together in one big file.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318553"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
WTF!?
Well, with that requirement met, even VQF can be gapless!
Talk about well-engineered lossless codec... heh.
I think maybe he means "For MLP to be gapless using DiscWelder, all songs must be compressed together in one big file." I may be wrong though.
Cool well maybe that is my problem then as I am using discwelder... what are my other options and what would you recomend?
Thanks!
two questions about this process:
1) is the order of the seperate mono .wav files created by ppcmripper -s always the same? I read somewhere that different DVD-Audio discs might have different channel order.
I've ripped two discs and the order on both appear to be LF, RF, LS, RS, C, LFE.
2) I've tried to use ppcmripper to rip a 6-channel wav. The resulting wav files only playback in mono, at least according to winamp. If I look at the wav files with audacity (unfortunately, I don't have any other audio tools) it shows distinct LF and RF channels, but the LS, RS, C and LFE channels are all noted as just mono.
Is there something I need to do to get a real 5.1 channel wav with the proper channel separation? I have a couple of DVD-Audio discs and it's always bugged me that I can listen to them when I'm in linux (about 95% of my computing time), so if I can rip them, I'd be extremely happy.
Sorry for the double post.
I haven't found any good free tools to do this, but are there any free tools that will let me take 6 separate files wav filesand create a single multichannel extensible wav file?
Adobe Audition can, you can download a free trial. I don't know what features the trial version restricts, though.
I think maybe he means "For MLP to be gapless using DiscWelder, all songs must be compressed together in one big file." I may be wrong though.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318596"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, you are correct.
WTF!?
Well, with that requirement met, even VQF can be gapless!
Talk about well-engineered lossless codec... heh.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318594"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The problem is reading the disc data and decompressing it in real time in the buffer space available. The codec isn't totally to blame here.
The order of song placement on the disk is important too, that's why the docs for dvda_ripper say to not use Nero or some other non-DVDA-aware tool.
Also, I have heard inexpensive "universal" players that inserted gaps in between songs on all DVDA, even official store-bought titles. It's really annoying to hear a live concert pause for about 200 msec in between songs.
Well the player I have doesn't have the gaps on the original disc but does on the ripped disc which is very frustrating! Is there anyway to use dvda explorer or such a program to grap more then 1 song to 1 mlp file or anyway to make ppcmripper to make one long wav file instead of splitting it at each song?
Also I have been burning the dvd-a decrypted files with nero but don't seem to be having a problem.. I doubt it is causing the minor gaps in between the ripped songs but just in case it is what program should I use to burn the decrypted aob files?
Also I have been burning the dvd-a decrypted files with nero but don't seem to be having a problem.. I doubt it is causing the minor gaps in between the ripped songs but just in case it is what program should I use to burn the decrypted aob files?
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Burning the image with Nero is OK as long as you created the image with discWelder.
I don't know of an inexpensive MLP encoder, so I have been using wav files in discWelder when I need gapless.
If the songs ares from the studio, already have gaps and no watermark, the individual MLP files work great.
No i burn the decrypted aob files with nero, not what discwelder outputs. I just burn that from within discwelder. I have tried using the wav files for gapless but I get a pop inbetween each track when I do it that way.
No one has any suggestions?
Intervideo has released "version 3" of WinDVD 7 Platinum as of the end of July 2005 and disabled all DVD Audio support!! I foolishly installed this, thinking it was a bug-fix revision.
They (as usual) refused to respond to my technical support queries when I enquired as to whether the DVD audio support was removed in view of the breach of the DVDA encryption.
Thankfully the previous version was still available for download (after much searching on the web) - WinDVD.Platinum.7.0.Release.2.Build 27.071
Using a new activation key from the Intervideo website STILL didn't enable DVDA playback on this previous version however.
I was able to fudge this using the original purchase activation key by changing the PC system date to within 10 days of my initial activation key supply which I had stored in an email.
Hey presto - back to WinDVD DVDA support!
Intervideo are being very crafty.... they have updated the WinDVD website to remove all references to DVD Audio support and then were answering my technical support queries as if I wasn't configuring my PC correctly.
Heh, how utterly moronic, begin to be a bit tired of RIAA & Co screwing everybody over to keep som feeble copy-protection-scheme alive.
AtW
Hohoho. Shame on me. Now WinDVD users won't be able to enjoy this awesome new audio distribution format
Shame on RIAA and Intervideo
Hope I'm not talking too much nonsense, but does that frequency analysis actually show that a song from The Doors has greater frequency content between 40-45 kHz than between 10-15kHz? Or is it a problem with either Audacity, the DVD-A authoring or my lack of knowledge on how to correctly read a frequency plot?
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No, that's what it's showing. I'm seeing it too. I would say it's some kind of noise shaping, but such a thing shouldn't be necessary at all with 24 bit audio.
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This is merely a detail, in this thread, but though several different possibilities have been raised (aliasing..) this weirdness hasnt been really settled, has it ?
indeed noise-shaping a 24 bit audio (mastered from tapes one could argue had 24bit equivalent resolution in the first place) seems unprobable.
But then what could cause aliasing in there ?
that spectrum really rose my curiosity.
hmm, as a sidenote:
things get rapidly shared these days, most of the time in a breeze before you can even say 5414795.
but enough of poems for now.
I've just tried to rip a dvd-audio (The dvd-a that was included with the soundcard audigy 2 zs).
Anyway, when trying to rip the songs using WinDVD 6.0 DXVA & PPMCripper, the information-window in WinDVD says the DVD-A stream is 24bit@96kHz, but that the output is 16bit@48kHz!!!
What am I doing wrong?? Is it that I'm using the kx-drivers instead of the creative-drivers?
I want my 96kHz.
when trying to rip the songs using WinDVD 6.0 DXVA & PPMCripper, the information-window in WinDVD says the DVD-A stream is 24bit@96kHz, but that the output is 16bit@48kHz!!!
What am I doing wrong?? Is it that I'm using the kx-drivers instead of the creative-drivers?
I want my 96kHz.
did you actually have the correct frequency enabled?
"PPCMRipper <frequency(Hz)> <destination_directory> [-s] [-w]"
when trying to rip the songs using WinDVD 6.0 DXVA & PPMCripper, the information-window in WinDVD says the DVD-A stream is 24bit@96kHz, but that the output is 16bit@48kHz!!!
What am I doing wrong?? Is it that I'm using the kx-drivers instead of the creative-drivers?
I want my 96kHz.
did you actually have the correct frequency enabled?
"PPCMRipper <frequency(Hz)> <destination_directory> [-s] [-w]"
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Yes, think so. The sampling frequency of the dvd-a is 96kHz, at least that's what windvd claims. But it also claims that my output is only 16bits@48kHz. Is this normal when I have the audigy-card?
There is no *.mkb file on the disc, so I figure I shoulden't have to use DVDAripper to decrypt the disc.
Here is my commanline:
PPCMRipper 96000 H:\temp
WinDVD starts up, and when I'm push the play button it starts ripping.
The output file is a 6channel wav at 24bits@96kHz.
But I don't know if this file is the true 96kHz file on the dvd-a, or just an upsample from 48kHz....
Many of the files show no frequencies above 24kHz when viewed in the frequency spectral display in cool edit. But some files do show something above 24kHz...and it doesn't look like aliasing, cause that would look like a mirror of the lower freqs.
So, eihter the music on the dvd carries music that for the most part comes from sources with Fs=48kHz. (Much use of 96kHz samplin then )
Or my ripping is bad.
What does WinDVD say in the "Output"-field for you guys who have tried ripping, with an audigy-card?
James Guthrie, the sound engineer who worked on several albums from Pink Floyd (including the SACD edition of
Dark Side of the Moon), about DVD-Audio:
“If there is no high-frequency filtering in DVD-A, then how do you account for numerous titles in the marketplace that have ‘brick-wall’ filters at 20kHz?” James Guthrie added, although he declined to offer any specific examples.
A reply from Craig Anderson, DVD Development Engineer for WEA Studios:
Regarding the supposed filtering in DVD-A, it seems that Mr. Guthrie has been misinformed about the MLP process. Of the fifty-plus DVD-A titles bearing my name, none has been filtered in any way between the mastering stage and the MLP procedure.
It's funny he should say that, because the sample from Yes -
Fragile that I uploaded and analysed earlier in this thread, clearly shows (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368&view=findpost&p=311215) a brick wall filter around 24kHz. And what name did I find in the credits?
Authoring: Craig Anderson and David Dieckmann. And as far as I can tell, that DVD-A was released in 2002 (december 2 according to amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006JKLI/)).
Edit: for clarity, in case you haven't read the whole (lengthy) thread, the ripping process is unlikely to be the culprit here, since it doesn't yield the same result with other DVD-Audio discs, ripped on a single setup.
Those quotes come from the article entitled
DVD-Audio Meridian Lossless Packing: The Great Filter Debate (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/features/mlp_encode.asp), published on the 4th of july, 2003. The whole debate was about filtering high frequencies for MLP to compress the audio more efficiently.
Okay I have a copy of Dave Tippers Surrounded and I was wondering how I could copy and convert the DVD-Audio part (NOT THE ONE IN THE VIDEO_TS THE REAL DVD-AUDIO PART, I already know how to extract ac3 from vob and convert it!).
Also it seems to have some copy protection called MMCP or something like that, is there a way to get rid of that ?
note: if i asked something stupid, or asked something wrong please don't flame me, as I'm totaly new to DVD-Audio!
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If your DVD can be played with MPlayer, then u could use my audio/video transcoding tool - [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36870]MEnc[/url] to do the job. It can simply transcode DVD audio tracks to any audio compression formats on-the-fly.
Can someone help me?
I've been trying to find a version of windvd with the dvd audio pack. I've tried two versions of 5 and one of 6. All said they didn't have the dvd audio pack and sent me to the intervideo website. That gets me to windvd7 which doesn't have dvd audio anymore. What do I do to get the dvd audio pack and get it installed with windvd6?
thanks!
Bump.
Can someone help me?
I've been trying to find a version of windvd with the dvd audio pack. I've tried two versions of 5 and one of 6. All said they didn't have the dvd audio pack and sent me to the intervideo website. That gets me to windvd7 which doesn't have dvd audio anymore. What do I do to get the dvd audio pack and get it installed with windvd6?
thanks!
Using a new activation key from the Intervideo website STILL didn't enable DVDA playback on this previous version however.
I was able to fudge this using the original purchase activation key by changing the PC system date to within 10 days of my initial activation key supply which I had stored in an email.
Can someone help me?
I've been trying to find a version of windvd with the dvd audio pack. I've tried two versions of 5 and one of 6. All said they didn't have the dvd audio pack and sent me to the intervideo website. That gets me to windvd7 which doesn't have dvd audio anymore. What do I do to get the dvd audio pack and get it installed with windvd6?
thanks!
Using a new activation key from the Intervideo website STILL didn't enable DVDA playback on this previous version however.
I was able to fudge this using the original purchase activation key by changing the PC system date to within 10 days of my initial activation key supply which I had stored in an email.
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thanks narc0sys, I saw that. The problem is, I didn't know there was software out that could play dvd-audio and didn't purchase a windvd version that could. Version 7 of Windvd doesn't play it and they will only sell me the new version, so what do I do to get a version with dvd-audio playback?
Just wanted to let everyone know I finally got this working. It works well. I have 2 dvd audio discs and 1 dual-disc. I was very disappointed to learn that my two dvd audio discs did not have a high res stereo track. The "advanced resolution stereo" tracks were 16/48 in the dvd-video side. I tried my dual-disc, the new Wallflowers album. The label says both stereo and surround are 24/48. The label was correct for the surround, but the stereo is 24/96. I was dissappointed that the heavy compressesion on the cd is still present on the 24/96 tracks. While I've heard much worse compression, there are still some tracks that I think are too compressed. I tried grabbing a stereo version of the surround tracks to test. It worked, but I didn't like the way it sounded, seemed there was some weird phasing or something. Oh well, it was fun experiment.
Oops.. Didn't bother checking this thread again after reading the OP~
Fantastic news~!
However I've recently lost interest in the format after discovering that an old CD from a second-hand shop can blow both the remaster and the DVD-A out of the water when played at a realistic volume.
James Guthrie, the sound engineer who worked on several albums from Pink Floyd (including the SACD edition of Dark Side of the Moon), about DVD-Audio:
“If there is no high-frequency filtering in DVD-A, then how do you account for numerous titles in the marketplace that have ‘brick-wall’ filters at 20kHz?” James Guthrie added, although he declined to offer any specific examples.
A reply from Craig Anderson, DVD Development Engineer for WEA Studios:
Regarding the supposed filtering in DVD-A, it seems that Mr. Guthrie has been misinformed about the MLP process. Of the fifty-plus DVD-A titles bearing my name, none has been filtered in any way between the mastering stage and the MLP procedure.
It's funny he should say that, because the sample from Yes - Fragile that I uploaded and analysed earlier in this thread, clearly shows (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368&view=findpost&p=311215) a brick wall filter around 24kHz. And what name did I find in the credits? Authoring: Craig Anderson and David Dieckmann. And as far as I can tell, that DVD-A was released in 2002 (december 2 according to amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006JKLI/)).
[
IIRC Guthrie implied that ALL DVD-A had to be filtered. But IIRC from that thread, the 24 kHz filtering you saw applied only to the 5.1 mix -- someone else reported that the DVD-A 2.0 mix of Fragile has spectral content up to 96 kHz. False advertising on Rhino's part perhaps, but in any case I doubt anyone is going to hear the loss of content above 24 kHz. (or even 22, for that matter).
Re: Filtering
I recall reading (on this board perhaps) that the MLP encoding guide/manual highly recommends the pre-filtering of supersonic content for increased encoding efficiency.
Seems to me very backwards for a lossless encoder.
Re: Filtering
I recall reading (on this board perhaps) that the MLP encoding guide/manual highly recommends the pre-filtering of supersonic content for increased encoding efficiency.
Seems to me very backwards for a lossless encoder.
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SACD involves filtering out supersonic content too. Really, how much supersonic content does anyone *need*?
Anyway,according to Meridian's [a href="http://www.highfidelityreview.com/features/mlp_encode.asp]Bob Stuart[/url] ''Meridian does not advocate the use of filtering in routine DVD-Audio production or in playback; rather we encourage producers to avoid errors in source files. We are also not aware of filtering being used as part of the authoring process by any of our customers.'
and on the same page:
"In our MLP training information, we point out as a matter of information that the size of a compressed file can be adjusted by using (gentle) low-pass filtering or selection of a word size to suit the project. This is useful background information to a certain type of producer, who may want to free up space on a disc for other assets or simply understand how the process works."
IIRC Guthrie implied that ALL DVD-A had to be filtered.
Read the quote again. He asks, "
If there is no high-frequency filtering in DVD-A, then how do you account for numerous titles in the marketplace that have ‘brick-wall’ filters at 20kHz?" (emphasis added).
Numerous is hardly ALL.
But IIRC from that thread, the 24 kHz filtering you saw applied only to the 5.1 mix -- someone else reported that the DVD-A 2.0 mix of Fragile has spectral content up to 96 kHz.
That was me (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368&view=findpost&p=311225).
False advertising on Rhino's part perhaps, but in any case I doubt anyone is going to hear the loss of content above 24 kHz. (or even 22, for that matter).[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=333190")
That's another story. The fact is that brickwall filtering HAS obviously been applied on a DVD-A bearing the name of Craig Anderson.
I recall reading (on this board perhaps) that the MLP encoding guide/manual highly recommends the pre-filtering of supersonic content for increased encoding efficiency.
You can check that fact for yourself, directly from the [a href="http://www.meridian-audio.com/mlp/MLPEncoderUser.pdf]source[/url]:
If the audio data cannot be compressed within the specified peak data rate the MLP Encoder will signal an error. The producer can then use one or more options for reducing the data rate, or reducing the total space used by the recording. These include:
• Reducing the bit width of one or more channels, such as from 24-bit to 22-bit.
• Filtering one channel to LFE.
• Reducing the audio bandwidth; for example, by filtering information above some arbitrary frequency, such as 40kHz when sampling at 96kHz.
All of these options will increase the amount of compression that MLP can achieve, thus increasing the playing time or reducing the peak data rate.
(Emphasis added). I wouldn't say they
highly recommend it though.
IIRC Guthrie implied that ALL DVD-A had to be filtered.
Read the quote again. He asks, "If there is no high-frequency filtering in DVD-A, then how do you account for numerous titles in the marketplace that have ‘brick-wall’ filters at 20kHz?" (emphasis added). Numerous is hardly ALL.
Granted, but his implication was that the practice is widespread, and Kawakami implied it was *recommended* by Meridian. I think the whole thing's a red herring, since I don't believe it matters whether content above 24 kHz is included in the playback format.
False advertising on Rhino's part perhaps, but in any case I doubt anyone is going to hear the loss of content above 24 kHz. (or even 22, for that matter).[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=333190"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's another story. The fact is that brickwall filtering HAS obviously been applied on a DVD-A bearing the name of Craig Anderson.
From a listener's perspective I think it's *much* more problematic that considerable dynamic range compression has been applied to that Yes DVD-A. (to the stereo mix at least -- I haven't analyzed the surround mix)
IIRC Guthrie implied that ALL DVD-A had to be filtered.
Read the quote again. He asks, "If there is no high-frequency filtering in DVD-A, then how do you account for numerous titles in the marketplace that have ‘brick-wall’ filters at 20kHz?" (emphasis added). Numerous is hardly ALL.
Granted, but his implication was that the practice is widespread, and Kawakami implied it was *recommended* by Meridian. I think the whole thing's a red herring, since I don't believe it matters whether content above 24 kHz is included in the playback format.
Well, then one of the two improvements of DVD-A is useless then, (higher frequency-range), the other is better S/N (or dynaic range if you will). Which in my humble opinon also is of dubious real percetable value.
AtW
IIRC Guthrie implied that ALL DVD-A had to be filtered.
Read the quote again. He asks, "If there is no high-frequency filtering in DVD-A, then how do you account for numerous titles in the marketplace that have ‘brick-wall’ filters at 20kHz?" (emphasis added). Numerous is hardly ALL.
Granted, but his implication was that the practice is widespread, and Kawakami implied it was *recommended* by Meridian. I think the whole thing's a red herring, since I don't believe it matters whether content above 24 kHz is included in the playback format.
Well, then one of the two improvements of DVD-A is useless then, (higher frequency-range), the other is better S/N (or dynaic range if you will). Which in my humble opinon also is of dubious real percetable value.
AtW
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In my opinion they're *both* pointless for delivery formats (though higher sample rates make for possibly easier filtering at the D/A stage). So I don't disagree. DVD-A and SACD *are* more marketing hype than needed 'improvements' on CD, IMO. The practical value of higher sampling/bitrates seem to me to be more on the recording and production side, than the delivery side.
On a good system you should be able to hear the difference between cd and 24/96 dvd-audio stereo tracks. No one is saying we can hear frequencies that high, but the filters used for dvd-audio at 24/96 are much more gentle than that of cds. that makes a big difference.
I agree that the use of heavy peak limiting compression on dvd-audio is disappointing. The reason we are buying these discs is so we *don't* have that.
On a good system you should be able to hear the difference between cd and 24/96 dvd-audio stereo tracks. No one is saying we can hear frequencies that high, but the filters used for dvd-audio at 24/96 are much more gentle than that of cds. that makes a big difference.
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Sorry but that claim is useless unless varified by an ABX test.
On a good system you should be able to hear the difference between cd and 24/96 dvd-audio stereo tracks. No one is saying we can hear frequencies that high, but the filters used for dvd-audio at 24/96 are much more gentle than that of cds. that makes a big difference.
On a *good* system -- which I'd define as one where the CD filter implementation is good too -- I think it would be very hard to tell the difference in a blind comparison, if not impossible. This is assuming, of course, that the same sources and signal chain were used in recording up until digitization, and the same mastering stage EQ/processing etc was used , for the two versions. Which isn't guaranteed.,
So you would rather have the brickwall filters on cd players versus the gentle slope filters that can be used in dvd-audio players?
All of the sudden I remember the title of this thread: "How to grab DVD-Audio"
If brickwall filters on cd players have no audible consequences, then it doesn't matter.
They do have consequences, they cause distortion, especially in the high end.
Could you elaborate? What kind of distortion?
When the Nyquist frequency is only slightly above the range of human hearing, you have to have a brick wall filter at 22kHZ. You want to have a flat frequency responce up to 20kHZ, but you can't have any signal/energy at 22kHZ or you'll get alias distortion. This requires a very sharp multipole filter with a very steep transition between the passband and the stopband. This causes distortion in the signal, smearing transients and causes ripples in the passband. If you try to simplify the filter, then you have to start rolling off at 13 - 15 kHZ to avoid unacceptable aliasing. Even then, the signal will not be completely cut off by 22kHZ. Using a higher sampling rate allows you to raise the cutoff frequency as well as use a much more gentle filter slope.
When the Nyquist frequency is only slightly above the range of human hearing, you have to have a brick wall filter at 22kHZ. You want to have a flat frequency responce up to 20kHZ, but you can't have any signal/energy at 22kHZ or you'll get alias distortion. This requires a very sharp multipole filter with a very steep transition between the passband and the stopband. This causes distortion in the signal, smearing transients and causes ripples in the passband. If you try to simplify the filter, then you have to start rolling off at 13 - 15 kHZ to avoid unacceptable aliasing. Even then, the signal will not be completely cut off by 22kHZ. Using a higher sampling rate allows you to raise the cutoff frequency as well as use a much more gentle filter slope.
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Oversampling in CD players took care of this problem more than a decade ago. Please read this thread:
[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8909&st=25]http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....opic=8909&st=25[/url]
About aliasing: this is a non-issue in practice, unless you can hear very well on the range between 21.5 KHz and 23 KHz, where there is some remaining aliasing due to the filters used commonly.
I don't agree that aliasing is only contained in the freqencies that the filter is in. I believe that aliasing distortion can be heard in audible frequencies. My question is, why try so hard to make 44.1kHZ audio work if we can use a higher sampling rate that will enable us to move the filters to a higher frequency and allow for better filter design?
I don't agree that aliasing is only contained in the freqencies that the filter is in. I believe that aliasing distortion can be heard in audible frequencies.
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Prove it.
I think this (http://www.nanophon.com/audio/antialia.pdf) article does a pretty good job of explaining it.
Love the avatar, dreamliner77.
I don't agree that aliasing is only contained in the freqencies that the filter is in. I believe that aliasing distortion can be heard in audible frequencies.
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Prove it.
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Yeah prove it. We require a blind listening test of you before you are allowed to spread this opinion. Articles, theoretical discussions, graphs and such don't prove anything. This is TOS#8.
I think this (http://www.nanophon.com/audio/antialia.pdf) article does a pretty good job of explaining it.
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Interesting article, but it really doesn't say anything that many of us didn't know. Also, it doesn't prove in any way that the effects of the filters are in fact audible:
- Pre-echoes (more like pre-ringing) caused by sharp, phase linear FIR filters is hardly audible. Why? Because that pre-ringing has a frequency that is the same as the filter cutoff frequency. That means that the ringing frequency is of 20 KHz or more. Which is hardly audible, and, so far, there are no proofs of its audibility. Not to say that only very certain types of audio signals will excite such pre-ringing, signals that are not common at all in real world music.
- Lack of rejection of images isn't a big issue, because that has some importance only at frequencies very near half sampling frequency. In practice, it may have some effect on signals over 21 KHz, so, again, it will be hardly audible, and so far hasn't been proved to be audible with real world music.
- Real world musical signals have little energy at 20 KHz and over. There's much more energy below 20 KHz, which, thanks to masking effects, reinforces the lack of audibility of the previous two effects.
- Clipping due to reconstruction filters can only be attributed to poor and inadequate mastering.
Also:
- Linear phase FIR filters cause no phase distortion, as its own name implies.
- Common filter ripple is very below known thresholds of audibility (0.1 dB).
Yeah prove it.
I thought we were having an adult discussion.
This is TOS#8.
I don't know what this means since I'm new here. Enlighten me.
KikeG, thanks for the adult response.
Guys, if cds don't sound harsh to you, then keep listening to them.
I think that in properly designed equipment, cds can sound good. But
with a higher sampling frequency, there is more margin for error.
I have never done blind listening tests on cd/dvd-audio/sacd,
but I have listened to analog masters in studio that sounded
much better than the pressed cd.
This is TOS#8.
I found the terms of service, so no need to point it out.
I have never done blind listening tests on cd/dvd-audio/sacd,
but I have listened to analog masters in studio that sounded
much better than the pressed cd.
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Ever heard of "mastering"?
According to This relatively old story (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=14550899) cppm has already been cracked (rarewares get a mention too.)
Ever heard of "mastering"?
Nope.
According to This relatively old story (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=14550899) cppm has already been cracked (rarewares get a mention too.)[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=336115"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nope. CPPM is still going strong and unbroken.
What people (MaximA) broke was one of the links in the DVD-A DRM chain (he patched WinDVD routines related to data output, and not related to CPPM). CPPM, as a cryptography method, has never been broken.
I think this (http://www.nanophon.com/audio/antialia.pdf) article does a pretty good job of explaining it.
Love the avatar, dreamliner77.
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I'll print the article out at work tomorrow and read it.
And thanks, I like it too
According to This relatively old story (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=14550899) cppm has already been cracked (rarewares get a mention too.)
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OK there's definitely a problem if you refer to an external article about a story that started...
in [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368&view=findpost&p=310943]this very thread[/url]!
Dudes, this lengthy thread (272 posts) is entitled "How to grab DVD-Audio?", can we please stop extending it with completely off-topic posts?
Yeah prove it.
I thought we were having an adult discussion.
OK, so you think I'm an ignorant stubborn child keeping bothering you with my annoying and disturbing demands ? A little more respect to the forum and me wouldn't harm.
This is TOS#8.
I don't know what this means since I'm new here. Enlighten me.
In case this wasn't ment sarcastically: Have you read it ? I doubt that.
[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%']I have never done blind listening tests on cd/dvd-audio/sacd[/span],
but I have listened to analog masters in studio that sounded
much better than the pressed cd.
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How can you be sure they did ? Isn't it possible that you just thought they sounded better because you did know that they were analog masters ? You have to be critical towards yourself and search for a way to eliminate your own illusion.
If you get angry about that ignorant stubborn child that teaches you, I can admit that I see that you seem to know a lot about audio tech. I read a bit through that article and yes, there's a lot I don't understand. But on this forum one's background simply doesn't matter. None will take your audibility claim seriously unless you perform blind testing.
And
then you will realize how truely difficult it actually is to hear anything.
i'ld love to hear if all the people(even if most) of the guys that say dvd-a/sacd has nothing over cd audiowise have actually got any equipment to test it with?
I'll invite you round my house and we can do blind tests for hours
my setup is:
denon dvd-3910 (upgraded to 3rd gen denon link linked with latest firmware A)
denon avr-3805
vaf dc-x/7/6 speakers
Adelaide, Australia... bring your own content or I'll suplly my own
I'll invite you round my house and we can do blind tests for hours
For such a test, you would need the exact same program material in both CD and SACD/DVD-A. Can you assure you have it? I mean, some tested hybrid SACDs have been verified to have different mastering in the CD and in the SACD layers.
It would be easier to record the analog output of a SACD/DVD-A with a good soundcard, convert it to 44.1/16, and burn a CD with it. Differences, if audible (could be, at least due to intermodulation effects of high-frequency content in SACD/DVD-A), would be most likely quite subtle.
Also, for such a test, proper level-matching (<0.1dB, using a pure tone and a voltmeter or soundcard) should be carried out.
To mods: I think it would be a good idea to split this offtopic discussion from the main one.
heh yea it is two seperate topics.. but oh well such as the natural behaviour of all forums..
No I cant be sure the material between the formats are on an equal playing field. What I do have to test with is:
1)NIN - TDS DE (remastered cd + 2/5.1 sacd), dual disc(cd+2/5.1(24/48)dvd-a+2/5.1dolby), the original TDS cd release
the clear cut winner for me and many others I have done blind tests with, **on my setup** the sacd kills the dvd-a hands down for both 2 and 5.1. But the dvd-a is ofcourse not fullrate to accomodate the dolby and dvd-v content. and the remastered cd is behind the dvd-a.. the difference between the original and remastered cd is neglible but you can tell it at certain points(less distortion, greater dynamics, clearer vocals), but its not such a big deal. Btw all points were stated as "that sounds less distorted" and "the vocals during the opening of hurt are far far better" along with "its the background noises that are clear as a bell that make this one better"
From memory not a sole said while the cd version was playing that it sounded as good or better. Noone knew what they were listening to but always picked sacd as best, dvd-a as 2nd, cd as last.
2)NIN - With Teeth dualdisc
cd
2(24/96) 5.1(24/48) dvd-a
2/5.1dolby
dvd-a beats cd version.. never listened to the dolby ever
3)porcupine tree - deadwing (seperate cd and dvd-a release)
cd
5.1(24/48)dvd-a (or dts)
2(24/48) PCM
no comparable playback
4)porcupine tree - in absentia (seperate cd and dvd-a release)
cd
5.1(24/48)dvd-a (or dts)
2(16/48) PCM
no comparable playback
As I said, im keen for blind tests with people a lil higher than my mates
but our results so far point to sacd > dvd-a > cd on my setup on the releases I have.
As far as I understand it, your tests only prove that the various versions have different mixing/mastering.
perhaps. but ur testing(i mean you utter lack of testing and simple words) show that you havent tested
most important is the fact that a cd version was released, then remastered and also released in higher formats which exceeded the cd formats version, whether due to pure better mastering or not the sacd version ended up being better than any other version released, if it requires a buzz word sacd for it to be mastered correctly, so be it, the music is better than when it was released as cd (10 years ago, then remastered this year)
I'm sorry if my English is too simple for you but my philosophy and experience surely aren't.
And yes, you're right. I don't even have SACD/DVD-A equipment and can't test. But I've done A LOT of comparisons original CD release vs. remastered CD release (yes, blind tests) and this strongly suggests that audible differences in CD vs. DVD-A/SACD originate from mixing/mastering.
And the question "What sounds better ?" can't be answered by blind tests, only "Does it sound different ?". It's a matter of opinion then. Keep in mind that the remastered version can't contain anything more than the original that isn't artificial.
Usually (on CDs at least) remastered versions aren't remasters, they're full remixes and new-style masters anyway.
I agree that perhaps its not the format thats making it sound better, but maybe its because they are on these formats sound engineers get told to get it right and to spend more time on it than usually is done on a ordinary cd. If thats the case and making formats makes people care more im all for it.
remasters of "current" gear(the cd in question is only 10 years old) im assuming is actually going back to the original masters before it was mixed originally and retooled from there. Prior to the conversion to cd etc etc, but I could be horrible wrong
Hi guys,
Has anybody checked out "DVD Audio Solo"? ( http://www.cirlinca.com (http://www.cirlinca.com) ). I downloaded the trial and upsampled a CD, but it sounded like sh*t. A lot of noise, this means lack of filtering, no?
Cheers
AL
I apologize if this question has been answered already, but this thread is 12 pages long and I couldn't understand most of it.
I want to rip a DVD-A disc to STEREO only.
I have an M-Audio 24/96 soundcard, and the DVD I'm trying to rip (Frank Zappa's Quadiophiliac) has a high fidelity stereo track (24bit/96kHz).
I played the DVD with WMP9, opened up Goldwave, set it to record the output of my soundcard, and grabbed the disc in realtime as one large wave file. I'm guessing that WMP9 does not support 24/96 playback. Is there any way to confirm if the file is actually high-fidelity?
If it isn't are there any media players that support hi-resolution playback? Is realtime recording of a DVD-A disc an acceptable method for good quality?
I apologize if this question has been answered already, but this thread is 12 pages long and I couldn't understand most of it.
I want to rip a DVD-A disc to STEREO only.
I have an M-Audio 24/96 soundcard, and the DVD I'm trying to rip (Frank Zappa's Quadiophiliac) has a high fidelity stereo track (24bit/96kHz).
I played the DVD with WMP9, opened up Goldwave, set it to record the output of my soundcard, and grabbed the disc in realtime as one large wave file. I'm guessing that WMP9 does not support 24/96 playback. Is there any way to confirm if the file is actually high-fidelity?
If it isn't are there any media players that support hi-resolution playback? Is realtime recording of a DVD-A disc an acceptable method for good quality?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340560"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Aja,
This is what I do to get stereo tracks from DVD-Audio or DualDisc.
I have WinDVD 6 (bought before they removed the DVD-Audio playback capability) and a Juli@ sound card made by ESI (http://www.esi-pro.com/viewProduct.php?pid=43&page=1).
The ESI sound cards have a special driver which includes something called DirectWire. ESI acquired Audiotrack so now the newer MAYA (http://www.audiotrak.net/maya44mk2.htm) cards have DirectWire as well.
DirectWire is capable of redirecting the digital output form a software player (WinDVD) to the input of a software recorder (Wave Lab, SoundForge etc…) without ever passing through the analog part of the audio card.
So I playback the DVD-Audio/DualDisc via WinDVD and I record it with Wave Lab. The result is one big file containing all the tracks which I have to cut in as many tracks as necessary. It’s a time consuming process but I don’t mind.
Unfortunately without WinDVD 6 and such a card nothing can be done except going the analog way. Also WinDVD 6 will downsample 24/192 to 24/96. It’s a same as I have 3 or 4 DVD-Audios that have 24/192 stereo tracks. I know for sure that this is true because the Juli@ control panel displays the incoming sample rate. The WinDVD setup is for analog stereo and you have to use DirectSound as audio renderer as Waveout will only output at 48 KHz. You might also have to set the latency of the audio card maybe above 512 samples as I get clicks with any lower values.
I compress the wave files to WavPack lossless and I store them on my server from where I play them back on my HTPC in the living room and the one in the bedroom. I use Meedio as front end and BASS 2.2 as playing engine with the ASIO drivers.
This to me is also a legitimate recording as I don’t crack the encryption in any way and I use legal software and hardware available on the market.
Hope this helps.
I don't have that software, though I might be able to find something that works in a similar manner (it's called Virtual Audio Cable, and I think I have an older, free version kicking around somewhere).
Thanks for the advice, though!
The process of ripping DVD Audio requires a set of tools released by a guy names Maxima, it can bypass the encryption and watermarking and extract the MLP compressed tracks via WinDVD.
It's a lengthy process but it can do 1:1 copies unlike any kind of direct recording.
hi,
i successfully extracted an .mlp file from a set of .aob files with dvdaexplorer and decoded the .mlp to a multichannel .wav file using a software called digion audio pro 2 without resorting to windvd hacks. just fyi
hi,
i successfully extracted an .mlp file from a set of .aob files with dvdaexplorer and decoded the .mlp to a multichannel .wav file using a software called digion audio pro 2 without resorting to windvd hacks. just fyi
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344539"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Compare it to the file you get with ppcm extractor. You'll see that the decoded MLP stream is shorter by a few thousand or so samples. Enough to mess up albums in which the audio flows from one track to another - appearantly DVDAexplorer isn't perfect for whatever reason.
hi,
i successfully extracted an .mlp file from a set of .aob files with dvdaexplorer and decoded the .mlp to a multichannel .wav file using a software called digion audio pro 2 without resorting to windvd hacks. just fyi
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344539"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Compare it to the file you get with ppcm extractor. You'll see that the decoded MLP stream is shorter by a few thousand or so samples. Enough to mess up albums in which the audio flows from one track to another - appearantly DVDAexplorer isn't perfect for whatever reason.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344550"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
unfortunately, this doesn't even work for me. is there any mastering tool or otherwise that can get .mlp files out of .aob files except dvdaexplorer?
edit: btw, i noticed the following: the size that dvdaexplorer reports as "original size" for one mlp track is exactly what i get as a file size when i extract that track. actually, the size of the decoded wav file is 376105108 bytes and dvdaexplorer reports 376104960 for that track as "original size". however, inspecting the wav file shows a header, then lots of zero bytes until byte 167456 (including header) where sample data seems to start.
does dvdaexplorer mangle the first bytes of the mlp track so the decoder fails silently and replaces them with zeroes or what's going on here?
Hi,
I have a question. I have a DVDA disc and it is CPPM protected (It has DVDAUDIO.MKB). However whenever I try to run either DVDARipper or PPCMRipper, the programs blink in and out...
I have the files extracted to the WINDVD folder...
Could you help me out?
What steps do I need to do after that (Sort of confused with the HowTo.txt)
Thank you
I have a DVD-Audio iso that i've burned and mounted with d-tools. The video portion of the disc works perfectly any way I've tried. With my supposed "universal" player, it tries to play the DVD-Audio, appears to be working fine, but no sound actually comes out. Also, it shows "B.S.P" in the display, but no "browsable still pictures" show up. I'm able to press Title/Group 3 and arrive at the video portion of the disc with the dolby digital 5.1 which works fine. At first I was satisfied with the dolby digital but after finding this thread I became very interested in trying to do something with the 3 gigs of audio wasting away.
So I download WinDVD 7, apparently a version before they disabled DVD-Audio, but it crashes upon trying to play the DVD-Audio portion the burned disc or mounted iso. I proceed to try versions 5 and 6 with the same results. Sometimes I'll get some high pitched squeals and clicks for a few seconds before it crashes. This is the error code:
Faulting application windvd.exe, version 6.0.6.42, faulting module gpiproxy.dll, version 6.0.6.42, fault address 0x00155526.
I've tried searching google for gpiproxy.dll and DVD-Audio problems, but found nothing related to my specific problem of just DVD-Audio crashing. With WinDVD I'm able to play everything but the 2 groups of high-fi DVD-Audio. When I run DVDAripper, it appears to be ripping fine according to the dos window, although it gives application fault in windvd.exe at the very end of the process. I'm assuming the DVDaripper isn't actually working for me as I'm unable to play the DVD-Audio portion with WinDVD. PPCM ripper of course does not work either, it creates a few very small .wav files before crashing. I've burned a bunch of tests on a DVD-RW after trying DVDAripper but none of them seem to work. I'm not positive but I thought DVDAripper was supposed to remove the CPPM protection, but when trying to play the "decrypted" .AOB files or a DVD using them with PowerDVD I get a CPPM error still.
I wish I knew for sure if I would have this problem with every DVD-Audio disc but unfortunately I no longer own any, just this one backup. I'm curious if its just because its not the orignal DVD, a watermark or CPPM perhaps causes it to crash. Perhaps WinDVD crashes for the same reason my universal player won't play it, whatever that reason may be, and my only hope is to do something with mlp files.
I've tried switching from my onboard Realtek card to my Soundblaster Live 5.1, made no difference. I'm sorry for the lengthy post, I'll end it here suppose. If anyone has any clue as to why I may not be able to play this disc with WinDVD, please let me know.
Update: I found the DVDARipper does appear to do something, in DVDAExplorer, it says copying: freely, instead of copying: restricted. I obtained discwelder and was hoping that would be the solution to my problem, however it shows the duration of the files to be 00:00:00, and a burned disc of the .mlp files does not work. I'm assuming its like i said, DVDARipper is doing something but not completely working due to WinDVD's problems. Looks like I can only wonder if DigiOnAudio2 would do the trick...
Another update: I created a test DVD-Audio using a wav I created from an mp3. It worked fine in WinDVD and my universal player. So it's most likely just the disc(NIN-With Teeth BTW) and I'll have to let it be. Once again I'm sorry for the rediculously long first post.
Specs: WinXP Pro on P4 2.4, 1GB PC3200 RAM, Radeon 9800 Pro, SoundBlaster Live 5.1, 4 speakers and sub
I wish I knew for sure if I would have this problem with every DVD-Audio disc but unfortunately I no longer own any, just this one backup. I'm curious if its just because its not the orignal DVD, a watermark or CPPM perhaps causes it to crash. Perhaps WinDVD crashes for the same reason my universal player won't play it, whatever that reason may be, and my only hope is to do something with mlp files.
Sorry, you can't do anything with it now. You can't make an ISO copy of DVD_Audio and still use it for anything but a coaster... The encryption checks to see if it is the original disc. WinDVD and the universal player are crashing because it's a copy.
DVDAripper/ DVDAexplorer/ PPCMripper must be run on the original disc if it has CPPM protection (It has DVDAUDIO.MKB in the TS_AUDIO directory).
I'm starting to wonder about watermarks. I wonder what'll happen if I re-watermark the watermarked audio. (I do have access to the Verance embedder.) This may cause an audible change, though I don't think we're going to be able to get rid of the watermark without screwing with the audio. The whole Verance thing is unfortunate.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311513"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There will still be a watermark. so re-watermark it will not help.
It would be interesting though, if you could make some minute-long samples and upload somewhere. One with no sound at all, then some sine waves: 1000Hz, 1200Hz, 1350Hz, 1500Hz and 2000Hz. Then some white, pink and brown noise, and some music...
When ripping your DVD discs, we can always save the files separately as videos and audios, the last one can always be transformed as: MP3 types and some loseless types such as ogg or AC3.
So I think maybe you can do it with the help of your rippers to get audio files, and then, some ordinary treatments for transformations.
This is about DVD-Audio, not about audio on DVD movie discs. Hopefully no one would want to transform DVD-Audio to MP3 - or AC3, which isn't lossless either.
I wonder if someone (a mod?) could edit the first post to clearly state the current state of DVD-A ripping. It's very confusing to browse through a 12 page thread starting a while ago.
I wonder if someone (a mod?) could edit the first post to clearly state the current state of DVD-A ripping. It's very confusing to browse through a 12 page thread starting a while ago.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=361817"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, I get the impression that you actually can rip DVD-A with winDVD6 and a set of tools?
AtW
Hello all!
New to this forum but stumbled across this thread on ripping DVDA when I purchased my first four ADHD-records from themusic.com. They are all 24/192 + 24/96 dualdiscs.
It would be nice to be able to play the 24/192-material on my HTPC without the disc shuffling, so I searched for a way to rip them, I now understand that it is difficult and perhaps impossible to do bit-perfect.
During my search I tried to extract the first track from "Encounter of the third kind"-soundtrack by John Williams, so I fired up DVD-Audio explorer and extracted the track onto my desktop, not really knowing what would be the outcome.
The program created an .mlp-file which to my surprise had the same icon as my other audio-files, namely the icon for the Creative MediaSource Player, which installed with my X-Fi Elite Pro soundcard.
To my question: What is it I am listening to when I doubleclick this file and it starts playing in the MediaSource Player? The track is 4:50 and the file weighs 122 036 309 bytes. It's obviously not an ordinary 16/44.1-stream. As I understand, making an mlp-capable player costs 1000:s of dollars in licensing. Has Creative purchased such a license allowing me to play the mlp-files. Another software that comes with the Elite Pro is the Creative DVD-Audio Player, allowing me to play my DVD-Audio records, I just couldnt believe that extracting the mlp-file and playing it in the MediaSource Player would be so easy.
So: What am I listening to? :-)
All the best to all of you!
I haven't looked at this thread in a long time, but I was wondering what the best lossless encoder would be to store the DVD-Audio data in. I generally prefer FLAC for my cds, but for some reason the FLAC plugin crashes Winamp with a 5.1 channel file. I reported this bug a long time ago, and it hasn't been fixed yet. So, which lossless encoder should I use for this application, and what would be the correct channel order for this?
So, which lossless encoder should I use for this application, and what would be the correct channel order for this?
I find that WavPack works very well for me, but I don't use Winamp so I can't tell you if 5.1 WavPack files work correctly in Winamp or not. The correct channel order is Lf, Rf, C, LFE, Ls, Rs.
Quicktip: To fix the channel order after you rip them with the program use Wavewizard.
And MrMayhem thats pretty interesting, I had no idea there was anything out there that could play MLPs besides the Surcode tool.
And MrMayhem thats pretty interesting, I had no idea there was anything out there that could play MLPs besides the Surcode tool.
Yep, its pretty interesting. I just wanna be sure that when I play the MLPs, it still 24/192, even though I dont use the DVD-Audio player. I'll try to use RIAA and see what I come up with.
Does anyone know if the tools Maxima wrote work on LPCM (non-MLP) tracks?
I second that. I successfully ripped Buena Vista Social Club & John Coltrane - Blue Trane, the former 24/96 & the later 24/192 and compressed both of them using wavpack -hm.
It goes like this:
For an encrypted disk, (uncrypted start from step 3)
1) dvdaripper+WinDVD6->unecrypted AOBs/VOBs
2) UltraISO to create a non-ecrypted DVD-Audio Image (ISO)
3) ppcmripper+WinDVD6 -> wavs (use windvd to select surround or stereo when clicking play if needed)
4) Foobar2000 ver0.91 to combine the wav files and generate a cuesheet
5) Wavpack 4.31 to compress the single wav file
Fb2k 0.91 seems to have problems writing the 24/192 wav (2.7gb) file though. It keeps messing up the last track in John Coltrane - Blue Trane although the generated cuesheet looks fine. ver 0.83 with diskwriter and cuesheet output solves the problem. The above steps should produce a single compressed file with its cuesheet.
Enjoy!
I found a way how to decode MLP files without DVDAtools.
1. Install DiscWelder Chrome (it supports MLP). It works without activation for 15 days.
2. Set the temp folder.
3. Import only one MLP file you want to decode
4. Enable creating DVD Video compatible discs (it's somewhere in project propeties)
5. Start the job
The program decodes MLP files to 6 24 bit WAV files in temp folder, and then prepares the DVD Video authoring. Copy temp WAV files to another folder.
1. Install DiscWelder Chrome (it supports MLP). You can found it on various torrent sites or p2p. It works without activation for 15 days.
This is a T.O.S #9 violation right here or something along those lines.
Hi everybody,
I've read all posts in this topic, and just like some people I can't get dvdaripper to function.
I'm using WinDVD 7.0.27.71 (with the DVD-Audio pack installed) and an Audigy 2 sound card.
A DVD containing DVD-Audio (the quadrophonic mix of Pink Floyd's The Dark Side Of The Moon) is in drive e:
Now, when I type dvdaripper e:\audio_ts c:\rip WinDVD starts to play the DVD-Audio but no wavs are written to c:\rip.
Am I using the wrong WinDVD-version? Am I missing something? Can anybody give a hint?
Now, when I type dvdaripper e:\audio_ts c:\rip WinDVD starts to play the DVD-Audio but no wavs are written to c:\rip.
Am I using the wrong WinDVD-version? Am I missing something? Can anybody give a hint?
Try uninstalling Creative's DVD-audio player that installs with the Audigy.
Now, when I type dvdaripper e:\audio_ts c:\rip WinDVD starts to play the DVD-Audio but no wavs are written to c:\rip.
Am I using the wrong WinDVD-version? Am I missing something? Can anybody give a hint?
Try uninstalling Creative's DVD-audio player that installs with the Audigy.
Thanks for your reply, but I don't have the Creative DVD-audio player installed...
Help anybody?
It won't work if the folder doesn't exist already, is that your problem?
I have a question of my own. How can you figure out the bitrate of the DVD-A tracks? None of my discs say bitrate, but instead say "High resolution" or "Advanced resolution"
Edit: Never mind, apparently DVDAexplorer can tell me that.
kaiwei, is there any reason you're ripping to 6 audio files and then combining them to one rather than using a multichannel wave from the start, and then fixing them in WaveWizard?
i recently bought a couple DVD-A albums and i've been playing them on my computer, listening with headphones with the surround sound option. i've noticed it seems like there's a channel missing on occasion when an instrument will pan around. is this a problem of my dvd player (plextor px-708A), my soundcard (onboard AC 97), or my headphones (sennheiser PX100)? or a combo? i'd like to rip the surround audio (i've set up all the programs and such that i've seen people recommend in this thread) and i'm wondering what i need to get/change in order to hear everything.
hi
randal1013 i was wondering how you listen to the multichannel content with headphones. are you using some kind of dsp in foobar? i have an x-fi platinum card, which can make alot of audio processing on-board. is there any way to have it emulate surround using all 6 channels of the audio?
Thomas
randal1013 i was wondering how you listen to the multichannel content with headphones. are you using some kind of dsp in foobar? i have an x-fi platinum card, which can make alot of audio processing on-board. is there any way to have it emulate surround using all 6 channels of the audio?
i've been using windvd7. as far as i can tell, foobar can't read DVD-A. i don't know how to get full surround sound. i just remembered my onboard soundcard has a few bells and whistles, and one of them is a 6-channel mode for 5.1 speaker output. i've also updated the firmware for my dvd player and at least one channel still isn't getting played. i tried my roomate's $100+ sony headphones and the channel is still missing. either both our headphones can't play 5.1 or my dvd player can't read it. i've been looking through online documentation and i can't find anything about the headphones and dvd player supporting or not supporting 5.1.
I dont really se how you intend to play 5.1 sound using a normal set of stereo headphones. what i meant is that there are processing technology available which which is able to simulate surround sound using a pair of stereo headphones. it works by somehow by delaying the same sound a fraction of time, compared to other channels
Is there anybody able to clear op on this subject?
Thomas
I dont really se how you intend to play 5.1 sound using a normal set of stereo headphones. what i meant is that there are processing technology available which which is able to simulate surround sound using a pair of stereo headphones. it works by somehow by delaying the same sound a fraction of time, compared to other channels
i just found a DSP for foobar. ATSurround Prcoessor (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=40283). you can convert ripped 5.1 waves using this DSP to simulate surround sound.
ok ill give it a try, thanks
1. Install DiscWelder Chrome (it supports MLP). It works without activation for 15 days.
Is there a way get only the main application to work without all the drivers (GEAR, USB dongle). I'm afraid to wreck my stable system by attempting to install these. DiscWelder doesn't need to physcially weld anything in this case.
Edit: Installed DiscWelder Chrome without drivers. I deleted all drivers and their uninstallers from the directory of the InstallShield installer (before running it). Setup complained a few times, but that's all. Chrome is working properly as far as audio decoding and AC3 encoding goes.
Edit 2: Unfortunately it still installed GEAR registry entries, and made my optical drives invisible upon restart. I
hate software which comes distributed in installers and requires an installer.
I dont really se how you intend to play 5.1 sound using a normal set of stereo headphones. what i meant is that there are processing technology available which which is able to simulate surround sound using a pair of stereo headphones. it works by somehow by delaying the same sound a fraction of time, compared to other channels
Is there anybody able to clear op on this subject?
Thomas
To play 5.1 on stereo headphones you must either
1) Perform a direct downmix from 5.1 to 2 channels by merging the channels.
2) Simulate "fake" 5.1 using various algorigthms like Dolby Headphone or Creative CMSS3D Headphone.
For Dolby Headphone use powerdvd and choose it there.
For Creative CMSS3d u need an Audigy or X-Fi card. Then in your player choose 6 channel speaker mode, but in the creative config choose headphones and enable the CMSS3d.
Personally i find that Dolby Headphone ownz CMSS3D for music. But in games the combination of EAX+CMSS3d is better.
I have a question of my own. How can you figure out the bitrate of the DVD-A tracks? None of my discs say bitrate, but instead say "High resolution" or "Advanced resolution"
Edit: Never mind, apparently DVDAexplorer can tell me that.
WinDVD (6.0 B06.083 is the version I use) can also give you that information. With a track playing, right-click in the display window. This opens a large submenu; select 'Setup' , then select the "Information" tab. It will show you lots of data, among which will be something like this (this happens to be for a stereo DVD-A track):
Audio:
Hardware:
Audio Device: directsound
S/PDIF: None
Number of speakers: 2
Stream:
Type: Packed PCM
Bitrate: 4608 Kbps
Number of main channels: 2
LFE Channel: None
Sampling Frequency: 96khz
Bits Per Sample: 24
Output:
Sample Rate: 48 KHz
Bits per Sample: 16
If you are using PPCMRipper with a decrypted source, the data will be saved in the format shown in 'Stream' (96/24 in this case). The Output format is what's coming out of your (my) speakers from WinDVD -- I suspect WinDVD 6 doesn't do 24 bit output, even though it can decode 24 files. I've noticed too that the output sample rate always seems to be half the source rate (as long as that's above 48 khz), so for a 192 kHz source I see 96 in the Output report.
More musings on DVDA ripping....
I do the usual thing:
1) create repository folder(s) somewhere on my hard drive
2) load disc; check DVD-A stereo file format with WinDVD; then close WinDVD
3) run DVDAripper.exe to extract decrypted files to the folders I created
4) burn the extracted files to a DVD ISO image (I use CDBurnerXP Pro)
5) mount the image with DaemonTools
6) run PPCMripper.exe; select virtual drive and 'stereo' tracks in WinDVD (also make sure 96/24 decoding is active) ; save wavs
7) compress with FLAC; archive; play back with foobar2k
I've tried half a dozen now and have encountered various quirks and roadblocks. I should note too that thus far I've only been interested in making copies of the stereo tracks, for archiving on my hard disc jukebox.
Not interested in the video at all, though I sometimes have to grab that too (see below). Am a bit daunted by the prospect of archiving and playing multichannel audio, but that must happen eventually, as it's too convenient for me to pass up forever.
Reports on individual discs (usually referring to the stereo tracks only):
Steely Dan Everything Must Go (192/24, though the packaging says 96/24) was my learning curve disc, but once I got the above pipeline running, I was able to grab it flawlessly...and to see that there is actually some 'bad' peak limiting (13 samples wide or more) on a Steely Dan release ! How times have changed.... Also, not much energy above 48 , just a few spikes.
Neil Young's Harvest (192/24) also came off without a hitch. THis one has such a peculiar surround mix that I really just like it for the stereo remastering and the hilarious vintage documentary footage of NY and his barn. Btw, no peak limiting on the stereo tracks on this one; not even much evidence of compression. Pretty old school! And again, spectral view shows hardly any energy above 48 kHz in the stereo mix.
Yes Fragile (96/24) -- as reported before, the surround tracks have been pretty obviously limited to a 24 kHz , even though they are formatted as 96khz sample rate. I can't imagine it matters much. The stereo tracks (also 96/24, despite the claim on the package of 192/24) have energy to 48 khz, but it's way down in level. Huge amounts of compression on this one (stereo) -- Roundabout is like a fuzzy brick for much of its length -- but no true flat peaks that I can see. Tips of peaks go right up to 0 dB instead. Looks very mcuh the same as what I got when I recorded the analog stereo output of the DVD-A to 96/24 wav via my M-Audio 2496 card.
Deep Purple Machine Head (96/24). To get this one to work, I had to rip both the AUDIO_TS and the VIDEO_TS folders and include them in the ISO image, maybe because you have to go through two damn graphics (one with sound) to get to the menus. Once I did that PPCMripper/WinDVD worked fine (even though WinDVD will NOT play the DVD-A section of the original disc itself, for some reason). Haven't really looked at the wavs for spectral content yet.
Talking Heads Speaking in Tongues (DualDisc 96/24). This one stumped me for some time. As with Machine Head, the DVD-A tracks from the disc won't play in WinDVD, but including audio and video folders in the ISO didn't fix it. All I get is a hissing noise from what should be music tracks. PPCMripper doesn't even try to rip them when I load the ISO. I finally realized that, according to WinDVD, the audio tracks aren't PPCM, they're LPCM (Machine Head's read as PPCM, as do the Neil Young, Yes, and Dan tracks). So I'm probably SOL. The stereo Dolby Digital tracks are AC3; I mention this only because....
Al Green Greatest Hits (48/24). THis disc is notorious in the DVD-A listening world for being badly authored. It stumped many an early DVD-A player, requiring creative navigation on the user's part to actually get it to play music. It stumps WinDVD 6 too, until you manuallyk navigate to Group 06, whereupon you can select from the stereo tracks. Why can I do this with Al Green but not Talking Heads? It seems to be because on the Al Green disc, the 48/24 stereo tracks are the ONLY stereo tracks; they're accessible from the DVD-V area too, along with DTS 5.1 and DD 5.1. THis is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a confusing thing. But alas they are LPCM , not PPCM, so PPCM ripper refuses to even see them. I was able to grab them with DGIndex though. Not really sure it was worth it. (And yes, I then tried DGIindex on the Talking Heads image, and no, it didn't work for grabbing those LPCM tracks).
Billy Cobham Spectrum (96/24) -- this is a two-sided disc, one side is devoted to the Advanced Res Stereo tracks, making life easier...or not, since WinDVD refuses to play it correctly from the start. Digging into the navigation menu brings me to Group 04, track 7, which is the track selection menu. Oy vey, turns out the tracks are LPCM. At this point, I quit this disc to regroup and attack another day.
Queen Night at the Opera ( 96/24 ) Another infamous nightmare disc (thank you so much, DVD-A makers, for never standardizing DVD-A authoring; it really keeps things interesting). Black screen after loading the disc; navigating to group 02 reveals the track list, which fortunately seems to be the STEREO tracklist, but it's a craphsoot whether anything will actually play (the first track link seems to work....but loads all 12 tracks as one long play) . And oh look, the tracks are LPCM, not PPCM, isn't that special. Save for tomorrow.
I note too that WinDVD seems to be cutting me off at 30 secs of play on various discs...not a good sign. Luckily it seems not to apply to ripping the AOBs from disc and .wavs from ISO images...
I'm having the same problem as someone else earlier on the page, only I'm using WinDVD5 instead of 6 (can't find 6.) I type dvdaripper e:\audio_ts c:\blah (c:\blah is already created)... it launches WinDVD and begins to play (actually, right now it's playing Lateralus in my CD drive even though I told it to access the Complex in my DVD drive). IN the console window it says "waiting for WinDVD add-on load completion. Attaching to GPIProxy. GPIProxy is version 3.2.77.0" and just sits there; no data is written to my hard drive. I've already told WinDVD to decode 24-bit 96KHZ audio. What am I doing wrong? Actually, I can't evn get WinDVD to play the DVD-Audio part at *all*; even when I point at the right DVD I'm pretty sure it's just playing the DVD-video content rather than the audio. Also, to make sure I understand this right--if I decrypt the .aob files with DVDARipper, then extract the .MLP with DVDA Explorer, I can use Creative's player to play hte .MLPs and not have to deal with PPCRipper? Is there any other software player that can decode .MLP?
Is there any other software player that can decode .MLP?
There is a (very expensive) commercial application for DVD-A authoring called "DiscWelder Chrome". It will decode MLP files to PCM Wav.
The REM Greatest Hitts DVD-A ripped fine, but a Foo Fighters DVD-A has a spash screen that blocks me.
There is a (probably equally expensive) proffessional app called Surcode MLP that can also sort of decode MLPs (through a workaround).
Workaround: You first have to have a set of dummy wavs, one for each channel the mlp you want to decode has. The trick is to set the options so that the app, after an encode, does a test decode, which makes it writes was to disk. You first encode your dummies, then before you hit "ok" for the decode/test process to start, you swap the dummy mlp you just produced with the one you want to decode. Hit ok, temporary wavs will be produced and the app will report a failed test (duh). Before you hit "ok", copy those wavs and there you have it, a decoded MLP track.
I've generally had good luck with this method. I can't say too much here (see TOS 9), but surcode is definitely available through a torrent of bits.
I note too that WinDVD seems to be cutting me off at 30 secs of play on various discs...not a good sign. Luckily it seems not to apply to ripping the AOBs from disc and .wavs from ISO images...
It's probably because of watermarking. make sure to use the 'w' switch.
Hey. Ive been using "ImToo DVD Audio Ripper". Is this no good for ripping the audio? It seems to work. I rip to WAV then create an ISO image and then run it through EAC to get ~V0 VBR Lame MP3s.
Cheers
Hey. Ive been using "ImToo DVD Audio Ripper". Is this no good for ripping the audio? It seems to work. I rip to WAV then create an ISO image and then run it through EAC to get ~V0 VBR Lame MP3s.
Cheers
This program does not rip DVD-A discs. The website language (or course) is misleading. It simply rips the audio from the dvd-video tracks. So your copies are of the soundtrack to the video. Still, they're going to be very good quality, but not DVD-A.
This is probably a dumb question, but how come there's no open-source MLP decoder/encoder?
Anyone want to clue me in?
This is probably a dumb question, but how come there's no open-source MLP decoder/encoder?
Anyone want to clue me in?
Meridian Lossless Packaging (MLP) is a licensed, proprietary process...and I can't imagine an open-source encoder/decoder would be something Meridian would look kindly on. But given the failure in the marketplace of DVD-Audio, maybe they should.
There is a (probably equally expensive) proffessional app called Surcode MLP that can also sort of decode MLPs (through a workaround).
Workaround: You first have to have a set of dummy wavs, one for each channel the mlp you want to decode has. The trick is to set the options so that the app, after an encode, does a test decode, which makes it writes was to disk. You first encode your dummies, then before you hit "ok" for the decode/test process to start, you swap the dummy mlp you just produced with the one you want to decode. Hit ok, temporary wavs will be produced and the app will report a failed test (duh). Before you hit "ok", copy those wavs and there you have it, a decoded MLP track.
I've generally had good luck with this method. I can't say too much here (see TOS 9), but surcode is definitely available through a torrent of bits.
i've tried this method and it doesn't work for me. when i try to replace the dummy MLP before decoding, i get an error that basically says i can't overwrite the file because it's in use. i've been able to remove the dummy file from the folder, but when i try to put the real MLP file in the folder and hit 'ok', surcode doesn't decode it.
Geez, this discussion went all over the map....
I have grabbed several songs from DVDs that I wanted to have separately, and I did it the rather easy and obvious way.
Play the DVD and capture the desired audio stream in real time using a utility like TotalRecorder (Win) or Audio Hijack (Mac, and much better than Total Recorder). Granted, it isn't really "ripping" per se, but the files can be saved in uncompressed or compressed formats as you see fit. You may then edit the audio into tracks or whatever is required.
Easy, it just takes a bit of time and so I don't do it very often.
Easy, it just takes a bit of time and so I don't do it very often.
The last one I did was to capture the ridiculous theme song from "The Blob" (1960) because my kids thought it was hysterical. They are correct.
So, are these tools still available for download somehwere? Or are they long gone?
There is a (probably equally expensive) proffessional app called Surcode MLP that can also sort of decode MLPs (through a workaround).
Workaround: You first have to have a set of dummy wavs, one for each channel the mlp you want to decode has. The trick is to set the options so that the app, after an encode, does a test decode, which makes it writes was to disk. You first encode your dummies, then before you hit "ok" for the decode/test process to start, you swap the dummy mlp you just produced with the one you want to decode. Hit ok, temporary wavs will be produced and the app will report a failed test (duh). Before you hit "ok", copy those wavs and there you have it, a decoded MLP track.
I've generally had good luck with this method. I can't say too much here (see TOS 9), but surcode is definitely available through a torrent of bits.
i've tried this method and it doesn't work for me. when i try to replace the dummy MLP before decoding, i get an error that basically says i can't overwrite the file because it's in use. i've been able to remove the dummy file from the folder, but when i try to put the real MLP file in the folder and hit 'ok', surcode doesn't decode it.
Are you sure your dummy and real file have exactly the same name?
Are you sure your dummy and real file have exactly the same name?
of course.
http://audiopraise.com/vanity/overview.php (http://audiopraise.com/vanity/overview.php)
Nice extension module
this dingus appears to allow 'certain' players to digitally pass high-rez PCM and transcode DSD to same. So basically they're asking $600 for a subset of functions performed by a $160 Oppo 970HD DVD-player via its HDMI output. Bravo!
So, are these tools still available for download somehwere? Or are they long gone?
Are you sure your dummy and real file have exactly the same name?
of course.
Here's a the full text of a the pertinent (in your case) part of the guide I used to successfully rip one (1) unencrypted, multichannel DVD-A disc.
III. DECODE MLP FILES (if necessary)
SurCode MLP is a simple program that takes several mono .wav files as input (2 for stereo and 6 for multichannel, i.e. one .wav file for each channel) and encodes them inte a single .mlp file. You may be wondering; why do I need to use an encoder when I am trying to decode files? Until someone cracks a dedicated decoder, a workaround needs to be used.
While this software is meant to encode files, it features a verification step that can decode an .mlp file immediately after it is encoded in order to check for errors in the encoding process. Normally, it shouldn�t allow the decoding of arbitrary .mlp files, but luckily it doesn�t check that the .mlp file that it is verifying is actually the one it just encoded. The trick is to encode a set of dummy .wav files, thus producing a garbage .mlp file, and then substituting the garbage file with the .mlp file you wish to decode. The substitution must be performed just after the garbage .mlp file has been encoded and right before it is verified. Fortunately, a status window pops up after the encoding process, providing an opportunity to swap the files.
First of all, you need to make sure you have two separate drives (e.g. C: and D:). This is necessary to get around the problem of having to overwrite a locked file. Next, launch the SurCode MLP encoder and make sure the software is properly configured:
1. From the Options menu, click Encoder Options.
2. Uncheck Downmix and ReBit ™ Bit-Depth Reduction and check Verify after encoding is complete, Write decoded wave files while verifying, and Play back individual channels. Then click Ok.
IPB Image
In the main window, prepare to encode the garbage .mlp file:
1. Set the destination file path by clicking the Destination button and choosing a directory on your other drive (e.g. D:\temp). For the sake of simplicity, choose a short filename since this is the garbage .mlp file you will be replacing (e.g. foo.mlp so the destination file path is D:\temp\foo.mlp).
2. Set the Channel Assignment drop-down to a value matching the content of your audio. If your audio is stereo, select (Group 1) L, R. If it is multichannel, select (Group 1) Lf, Rf, Ls, Rs / (Group 2) C, Lfe.
3. Select the dummy mono .wav files by using the following buttons: Left Front to select Lf.wav, Right Front to select Rf.wav, and if your audio content is multichannel, Center to select C.wav, SubBass LFE to select LFE.wav, Left Surround to select Ls.wav, and Right Surround to select Rs.wav.
4. In the Playback frame in the bottom right corner, set the radio button to Verify/Play: Destination.
5. In the Encode frame in the bottom left corner, make sure the start field is reset to zero (00:00:00.00) by pressing the R button to the right of the field. This field will need to be reset to zero after each encoding is performed.
IPB Image
6. Start encoding the garbage .mlp file by clicking the Encode button. A few seconds later, a status window will pop up saying that everything encoded fine. DO NOT CLOSE THIS WINDOW YET. The application is now waiting for you to click Cancel to begin the verification process. While this pop up window is still open, you need to substitute the newly encoded garbage .mlp file with one of the .mlp files extracted from your disc in step (II).
7. Open the directory where the extracted .mlp files reside (e.g. C:\extracted). Select the .mlp file you wish to decode and rename it to foo.mlp (or whatever name you gave the garbage .mlp file). Copy the file by selecting it and then pressing Ctrl+C.
8. Open the directory where the garbage .mlp file resides (e.g. D:\temp). Delete that file by selecting it and then pressing Shift+Del.
9. Paste the file you copied by pressing Ctrl+V. Your extracted .mlp file has now replaced the garbage .mlp file you just encoded.
10. Close the SurCode pop up window by pressing the Cancel button. The encoder will now begin the verification process where it decodes the substituted .mlp file into 1 or 3 stereo .wav files (1 if the content is stereo, 3 if the content is multichannel).
11. When the verification is complete, another window will pop up with the verification status. Pay no attention to whether it reports that the verification step failed or succeeded as the .wav files are decoded fine in either case. Most likely it will report that the verification failed.
12. Close the status window before working with the newly decoded .wav files, since they are released only once you have done that. The decoded .wav files are now located in the same destination directory where the garbage .mlp file is located (e.g. D:\temp).
If your audio content is stereo, the .wav file is ready to be encoded with the lossless codec of your choice, skip to step (V). If your audio content is multichannel, you will have three stereo .wav files containing the Left & Right front, Center & LFE, and Left & Right surround channels, continue on to step (IV-A).
IV. PROCESS MULTICHANNEL .wav FILES
Depending on the type of track you extracted, MLP or LPCM, you will need to following section (A) or section (B), respectively:
A) Decoded MLP Track
In the case of multichannel content, you need to merge the 3 stereo files into one single 6-channel .wav file. For this, you will need to launch WaveWizard and configure it properly by choosing the Edit menu and selecting Preferences:
1. Set the Output directory, any place will do (e.g. D:\temp).
2. In the General settings frame, check Stream manipulation and set it to Merge files. Make sure that all other setting that might affect the audio are disabled: Channel mapping, Sample conversion, Sound level control, and Dithering.
IPB Image
3. In the main window, make sure the list of files is empty and then add the three stereo files by clicking the Add button, adding them in the following order: surcode_lfrf.wav, surcode_clfe.wav, surcode_lsrs.wav.
4. Click the Convert button.
IPB Image
I'd like to bring your attention to step 2 in the first part, where you have to chose the channel mode. Open DVD-A Explorer and look at your track's properties. You should see somewhere "Group 1 Channel Assignment" and "Group 2 Channel Assignment". Make sure the settings in SurCode matches what DVD-A Explorer shows about your track.
Also, in DVD-A Explorer, take a look at the fist track's channel info. Now take a look at the following tracks'. Does only the first track have channel info? That is because it is the only way to create gapless playback on a DVD-A (from what I can understand). If your disc is this way, then you'll have to merge all your MLPs together before decoding (under windows, copy /b track1.mlp+track2.mlp+track3.mlp+... should do the trick (it did for me)). Once that is done, decode your big merged MLP, merge the wavs with correct channel order and then you can proceed to split the wav in separate tracks, if you chose to. Sadly, I have not found any accurate way to do this. DVD-A explorer only reports track lengths to the nearest second. If you have an exact CD copy, then you could try getting a CUE from the CD and applying it to your DVD-A wav rip. Personally, I did it by ear since the CD I had didn't have the same timing.
Have fun
So, are these tools still available for download somehwere? Or are they long gone?
PM me. (TOS9)
Is there any other software player that can decode .MLP?
There is a (very expensive) commercial application for DVD-A authoring called "DiscWelder Chrome". It will decode MLP files to PCM Wav.
Will this software allow straight playback of mlp discs to a 24/192 capable soundcards? Does it have a software based player?
Thanks,
gabe
Discwelder Chrome is quite unrealible. I'd recommend Surcode MLP instead. (Discwelder often cuts off the end of some files, especially noticable with tracks that flow into eachother - this happens less often in Surcode)
gabeg: Once you have a 24bit 192khz decoded pcm file, even sndrec32 can play it as long as your soundcard supports that resolution.
I have a few things I'd like to extract from a DVD-A disc, if anyone can help me locate this software I'd appreciate it.
Thanks!
After lots of trial and error here are the best methods I came up with for ripping DVD-As:
Note: I do not have an Audigy sound card, so my main goal was getting full quality DVDAs to play on my computer.
TO PRODUCE A DVD-A COPY
1) Run DVDARipper (I had to use WinDVD5 seems some versions of WINDVD7 dont work well)
If you have trouble finding a version of WinDVD that works just google for "WINDVD5.exe"
2) Run DVDAExplorer and open any one of the IFOs created in step 1
I found it was unnecessary to first burn the decrypted files to a DVDA (using GEAR or whatever) like others have suggested.
3) Extract all tracks in desired format (surround or stereo) - does not matter if they are MLP or WAV
4) Use DiscWelder. Drag the track file(s) into the project and either burn to DVD or save as an image.
The image produced will not have an ISO extension but in reality that's what it is. You can mount this image with DaemonTools for playback on your PC.
Observations:
I found that I could NOT just use GEAR Pro to burn the decrypted files from step 1. When I did this the resulting disk would not play.
I found that PowerDVD would not play the original DVDAs but it gladly played the unencrypted disks produced by this method. Moreover it even played the ripped DVDAs at full quality (no frequency cut off).
Finally for watermarked DVDAs the ripped copy would NOT play in a standalone DVD-Audio player but it played just fine in PowerDVD.
TO PRODUCE WAV/FLAC/etc FILES FROM DVDA (for listening on your computer)
Do steps 1-3 exactly as above.
4) If the extracted files are in wav format then you are set... just use WaveLab or your favorite wav editor to combine/convert them.
If some/all of the extracted files are in MLP format then we need to decode them first. Here you can use the SurCode MLP workaround like Funkdude suggests. That works to produce 3 wav file (front left & right, rear left & right, center & LFE) which you can then combine/convert in WaveLab.
That being said, I found the Surcode workaround fairly clumsy and I am working on creating an MLP decoder. The Surcode app is really simple so figuring out the MLP decoding from that does not appear too hard.... hopefully : )
--JSmith
Here's a the full text of a the pertinent (in your case) part of the guide I used to successfully rip one (1) unencrypted, multichannel DVD-A disc.
III. DECODE MLP FILES (if necessary)
SurCode MLP is a simple program that takes several mono .wav files as input (2 for stereo and 6 for multichannel, i.e. one .wav file for each channel) and encodes them inte a single .mlp file. You may be wondering; why do I need to use an encoder when I am trying to decode files? Until someone cracks a dedicated decoder, a workaround needs to be used.
While this software is meant to encode files, it features a verification step that can decode an .mlp file immediately after it is encoded in order to check for errors in the encoding process. Normally, it shouldn�t allow the decoding of arbitrary .mlp files, but luckily it doesn�t check that the .mlp file that it is verifying is actually the one it just encoded. The trick is to encode a set of dummy .wav files, thus producing a garbage .mlp file, and then substituting the garbage file with the .mlp file you wish to decode. The substitution must be performed just after the garbage .mlp file has been encoded and right before it is verified. Fortunately, a status window pops up after the encoding process, providing an opportunity to swap the files.
First of all, you need to make sure you have two separate drives (e.g. C: and D:). This is necessary to get around the problem of having to overwrite a locked file. Next, launch the SurCode MLP encoder and make sure the software is properly configured:
1. From the Options menu, click Encoder Options.
2. Uncheck Downmix and ReBit ™ Bit-Depth Reduction and check Verify after encoding is complete, Write decoded wave files while verifying, and Play back individual channels. Then click Ok.
IPB Image
In the main window, prepare to encode the garbage .mlp file:
1. Set the destination file path by clicking the Destination button and choosing a directory on your other drive (e.g. D:\temp). For the sake of simplicity, choose a short filename since this is the garbage .mlp file you will be replacing (e.g. foo.mlp so the destination file path is D:\temp\foo.mlp).
2. Set the Channel Assignment drop-down to a value matching the content of your audio. If your audio is stereo, select (Group 1) L, R. If it is multichannel, select (Group 1) Lf, Rf, Ls, Rs / (Group 2) C, Lfe.
3. Select the dummy mono .wav files by using the following buttons: Left Front to select Lf.wav, Right Front to select Rf.wav, and if your audio content is multichannel, Center to select C.wav, SubBass LFE to select LFE.wav, Left Surround to select Ls.wav, and Right Surround to select Rs.wav.
4. In the Playback frame in the bottom right corner, set the radio button to Verify/Play: Destination.
5. In the Encode frame in the bottom left corner, make sure the start field is reset to zero (00:00:00.00) by pressing the R button to the right of the field. This field will need to be reset to zero after each encoding is performed.
IPB Image
6. Start encoding the garbage .mlp file by clicking the Encode button. A few seconds later, a status window will pop up saying that everything encoded fine. DO NOT CLOSE THIS WINDOW YET. The application is now waiting for you to click Cancel to begin the verification process. While this pop up window is still open, you need to substitute the newly encoded garbage .mlp file with one of the .mlp files extracted from your disc in step (II).
7. Open the directory where the extracted .mlp files reside (e.g. C:\extracted). Select the .mlp file you wish to decode and rename it to foo.mlp (or whatever name you gave the garbage .mlp file). Copy the file by selecting it and then pressing Ctrl+C.
8. Open the directory where the garbage .mlp file resides (e.g. D:\temp). Delete that file by selecting it and then pressing Shift+Del.
9. Paste the file you copied by pressing Ctrl+V. Your extracted .mlp file has now replaced the garbage .mlp file you just encoded.
10. Close the SurCode pop up window by pressing the Cancel button. The encoder will now begin the verification process where it decodes the substituted .mlp file into 1 or 3 stereo .wav files (1 if the content is stereo, 3 if the content is multichannel).
11. When the verification is complete, another window will pop up with the verification status. Pay no attention to whether it reports that the verification step failed or succeeded as the .wav files are decoded fine in either case. Most likely it will report that the verification failed.
12. Close the status window before working with the newly decoded .wav files, since they are released only once you have done that. The decoded .wav files are now located in the same destination directory where the garbage .mlp file is located (e.g. D:\temp).
If your audio content is stereo, the .wav file is ready to be encoded with the lossless codec of your choice, skip to step (V). If your audio content is multichannel, you will have three stereo .wav files containing the Left & Right front, Center & LFE, and Left & Right surround channels, continue on to step (IV-A).
IV. PROCESS MULTICHANNEL .wav FILES
Depending on the type of track you extracted, MLP or LPCM, you will need to following section (A) or section (B), respectively:
A) Decoded MLP Track
In the case of multichannel content, you need to merge the 3 stereo files into one single 6-channel .wav file. For this, you will need to launch WaveWizard and configure it properly by choosing the Edit menu and selecting Preferences:
1. Set the Output directory, any place will do (e.g. D:\temp).
2. In the General settings frame, check Stream manipulation and set it to Merge files. Make sure that all other setting that might affect the audio are disabled: Channel mapping, Sample conversion, Sound level control, and Dithering.
IPB Image
3. In the main window, make sure the list of files is empty and then add the three stereo files by clicking the Add button, adding them in the following order: surcode_lfrf.wav, surcode_clfe.wav, surcode_lsrs.wav.
4. Click the Convert button.
IPB Image
I'd like to bring your attention to step 2 in the first part, where you have to chose the channel mode. Open DVD-A Explorer and look at your track's properties. You should see somewhere "Group 1 Channel Assignment" and "Group 2 Channel Assignment". Make sure the settings in SurCode matches what DVD-A Explorer shows about your track.
Also, in DVD-A Explorer, take a look at the fist track's channel info. Now take a look at the following tracks'. Does only the first track have channel info? That is because it is the only way to create gapless playback on a DVD-A (from what I can understand). If your disc is this way, then you'll have to merge all your MLPs together before decoding (under windows, copy /b track1.mlp+track2.mlp+track3.mlp+... should do the trick (it did for me)). Once that is done, decode your big merged MLP, merge the wavs with correct channel order and then you can proceed to split the wav in separate tracks, if you chose to. Sadly, I have not found any accurate way to do this. DVD-A explorer only reports track lengths to the nearest second. If you have an exact CD copy, then you could try getting a CUE from the CD and applying it to your DVD-A wav rip. Personally, I did it by ear since the CD I had didn't have the same timing.
Have fun
i realize this is a late response, but i just now got around to re-ripping my DVDAs. i followed the steps you pasted in the code box and everything worked out well. turns out i hadn't been doing everything i needed to do when i first tried to convert MLP to wav. after reading your post and taking the time to figure it out, i now have DVDA audio on my harddrive and in wavpack. the only downside to converting MLP to wav, and this looks like it's a limitation of my DVDAs, is that i can only capture 16bit versions of the audio tracks, instead of the 24bit versions i had recorded the first time. according to DVDAexplorer, the DVDA seems to have 16bits as the limit for making copies of the MLPs.
but anyway, i can now listen to
the downward spiral and
with teeth in surround sound! and the best part is, using foobar's 'convert 5.1 to stereo' DSP, i was able to convert the 6ch files to 2ch files while retaining the surround effect, which i then converted to lossy for my ipod.
I'm just wondering, is this only relevant to DVD's with surround sound? And is it only relevant to DVD Audio DVD's?
I have DVD movies with AC3 audio and I'm wondering if it's possible to rip the audio without the dialogue (since you can have multiple language audio you would think so). I also have surround sound ones. I have no idea when it comes to ripping DVD audio correctly, so don't be afraid to explain stuff, I'm not going to get all "I'm not a noob!" on you.
- Spike
Let me first say that it is now possible to remove the encryption without having windvd installed! Head over to doom9: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1013597#post1013597 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1013597#post1013597)
Someone compiled it for me and it seems to work.
That being said, I found the Surcode workaround fairly clumsy and I am working on creating an MLP decoder. The Surcode app is really simple so figuring out the MLP decoding from that does not appear too hard.... hopefully : )
Any updates on the MLP decoder?
Interesting progress.
lol
From the last reply at the time of click-age
OT:
It may also be a problem to us audophiles who can, in fact, hear the difference between FLAC and 320kbps MP3. Just because the people who made it can't hear it, doesn't mean nobody can.
I have read this thread a few times now and am still not clear if it is possible to backup my watermarked DVD-A's onto a DVD-R so they can be played on a standalone player..
Is this possible?
No, it's not possible yet to remove those watermarks.
No, it's not possible yet to remove those watermarks.
Thanks for the clarification - I won't spend any more time on this until something new surfaces