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Topic: nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test (Read 6204 times) previous topic - next topic
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nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Hi folks ... since I have discovered the Right Mark Audio Analyzer (RMAA), I have been running several tests on my Soundcontrollers (Terratec EWX2496 and nVidia Soundstorm Onboard Audio Controller)

Since I own an ABIT NF7S 2.0 Mainboard which is Soundstorm certified, I thought it would be interesting to see the RMAA results ...

It is a 1,5 MB self-extractinf RAR archive that can be found here ... if you let it extract according to the original directory structure, results should be self-explaining.

I only got one cable to test with (see included picture) so my test might not be the end of the line but I was kinda surprised ...

Even more interesting are my Terratec tests with various analog and digital connectors (including some "high-end" stuff from Audioquest) which are not finished yet ...

Edit: removed some errors
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #1 –
Unfortunately, retail production motherboards use the well known low-end poor quality Realtek ALC650 codec, and some motherboards do not follow Nvidia's design guides strictly, causing poor circuit placement, etc.

The reference Nvidia mobo has Sigmatel codecs, and while Sigmatel codecs isn't that great compared to Crystal(Santa Cruz, Fortissimo3) or Analog Devices codecs, they do sound better than Realteks as tested by 3DSoundsurge.

http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/nForce/

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #2 –
These test results show that this MoBo sound isn't that bad ... really ;-)
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #3 –
But still, I wished the mobo manufacturers used higher quality codecs. This is the premier Athlon/AthlonXP chipset, but they pair it with one of the poor quality codecs from Realtek....     

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #4 –
why? use digital out to a decent DD 5.1 receiver.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #5 –
Yep.. If you use Digital S/PDIF out, you bypass the Realtek codec's alltogether..
myspace.com/borgei - last.fm/user/borgei

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #6 –
But it still depends on how is the circuit design on digital path.....
Break The Rules!!!

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #7 –
no, a 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0. If you use the digital out, every single board from every manufacturer is exactly the same. It's only when you use the analog out that there can be differences, because of the quality of the analog stages.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #8 –
Yes, 1 is 1 and 0 is 0 in digital world.

But what if 1 -> 0 or 0 -> 1?
Break The Rules!!!

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #9 –
Quote
Yes, 1 is 1 and 0 is 0 in digital world.

But what if 1 -> 0 or 0 -> 1?

The machine crashes?

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #10 –
Quote
no, a 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0. If you use the digital out, every single board from every manufacturer is exactly the same. It's only when you use the analog out that there can be differences, because of the quality of the analog stages.

Some people say the master clock on most soundcards is subject to jitter, I guess produced by EMI inside the PC...  I don't recall if it's myth or reality, and (if real) if it's audible.  Anyone remember? (sorry if I'm bringing up something that's been endlessly discussed before).

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #11 –
well, master, you go right ahead and keep on thinkin' that magically somehow one nforce2's digital output is better than another's. And then be sure to tell us how monster cable speaker wire is better than bulk lamp cord too.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #12 –
Quote
well, master, you go right ahead and keep on thinkin' that magically somehow one nforce2's digital output is better than another's. And then be sure to tell us how monster cable speaker wire is better than bulk lamp cord too.

C'mon ... a comment like this can result in further insulting/flaming and won't help to find out the truth.
Quote
If you use the digital out, every single board from every manufacturer is exactly the same.

This is the way it should be in theory, but there are several thinkable reasons why digital output could be changed:
- jitter, as fewtch described
- resampling, done e.g. by drivers/OS (IIRC there have been differences reported between Waveout/Directsound/Kernelstreaming ...)
- volume adjustment -> truncation/dither
...

So it would be appreciated if you could provide evidence for your claim:
Quote
If you use the digital out, every single board from every manufacturer is exactly the same.
Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #13 –
every single board is using the same drivers, that's why

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #14 –
Quote
Some people say the master clock on most soundcards is subject to jitter


  Isn't the problem supposed to be the master/ slave clock relationship, wherein slaving the card to an external clock (or an external DAC to the internal clock) results in jitter via clock synchronization problems (skew)?

  Whoop! Here's a useful thread about this including audibility of jitter discussion  (thanks to Pio's FAQ, the people who participated in the thread and the search function).
  The last two posts on the second page summarize some of the information rather nicely.

edit:
Quote
keep on thinkin' that magically somehow one nforce2's digital output is better than another's


  Actually in one way at least, the APU digital output on the NF2 boards is better than others - dolby digital encoding of all sound output means the SPDIF is carrying a full 5.1 channels of compressed positional audio when the digital-out of competing solutions can only carry 2 channel ADPCM.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #15 –
Quote
Actually in one way at least, the APU digital output on the NF2 boards is better than others - dolby digital encoding of all sound output means the SPDIF is carrying a full 5.1 channels of compressed positional audio when the digital-out of competing solutions can only carry 2 channel ADPCM.

you know as well as I do that we were talking about boards with all the same features except for the analog output section.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #16 –
Quote
Actually in one way at least, the APU digital output on the NF2 boards is better than others - dolby digital encoding of all sound output means the SPDIF is carrying a full 5.1 channels of compressed positional audio when the digital-out of competing solutions can only carry 2 channel ADPCM.

This statement seems misleading to say the least. The nvidia DD encoding is strictly a gaming feature, it encodes realtime directsound stuff into DD. It's not "all sound output" (nor would you want that; sound quality suffers).

The digital outs of competing solutions certainly do send 5.1, from DVDs for example. They don't need to "encode" it, it's already encoded.

my first post here btw: "hi everybody!"

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #17 –
Quote
This statement seems misleading to say the least. The nvidia DD encoding is strictly a gaming feature, it encodes realtime directsound stuff into DD. It's not "all sound output" (nor would you want that; sound quality suffers).

Heh. I didn't think the statement was that unclear.
  Perhaps next time I will attach multitudinous qualifiers to any statement regarding this.
  Since last time I was chastised for repeating information that was already known, this seems heavily ironic. To say the least.

You're exactly right - D3D is what is encoded to DD, allowing for four or five speaker surround in a situation where other digital outputs are capable of only stereo output.  The point of the encoder is to encode multispeaker protocols to DD to allow positional multispeaker information. And indeed, the compression results in information loss, since it is lossy compression.
 
  Which I thought was pretty clear - default stereo is not converted to 5.1 which I felt was totally self-explanatory.

Quote
you know as well as I do that we were talking about boards with all the same features except for the analog output section.

I realize that now, yes.
  Without testing of all of the digital-output solutions availible making a blanket statement about the identical nature of the digital-output however may be incorrect.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #18 –
Quote
Which I thought was pretty clear - default stereo is not converted to 5.1 which I felt was totally self-explanatory.

Quote
you know as well as I do that we were talking about boards with all the same features except for the analog output section.

I realize that now, yes.
  Without testing of all of the digital-output solutions availible making a blanket statement about the identical nature of the digital-output however may be incorrect.

Actually if you have DD encoding turned on, everything is encoded, mono, stereo, multiple channels from DS3D, everything. It all gets turned into a DD 5.1 stream, and the nature of that signal, i.e. what goes to which channel, depends on the specific options you've set. But still DD 5.1, the only difference is what gets routed where.  Nothing passes through untouched, it all gets encoded in DD. The only time stuff does get passed through untouched is if it already is a DD stream, like a DVD, or if you turn off DD encoding. This feature is off by default. And it only outputs stereo PCM unless you turn it on, that includes DS3D output from games.

And they're all the same chipset, all using the same drivers, I fail to see how identical chipsets with identical drivers could be different in operation. The only point that there could be any difference is in the analog output stage, where DAC used etc is all up to the different board manufacturers' discretion, which we're ignoring in this case.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #19 –
Quote
...And they're all the same chipset, all using the same drivers, I fail to see how identical chipsets with identical drivers could be different in operation...

Take for instance two mainboards having identical chipsets & same drivers. One crashes a lot & cannot be overclocked and the other works ok. Coincidentally, the slightly expensive one will work better. Implementation differs a lot for different manufacturers. There is a difference between 'err... it works!' and 'it's working within required specs, we have carefully tested everything'.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #20 –
we aren't talking about things like overall motherboard stability, we're talking about simple audio output. I know what you're saying, but it doesn't really apply in this instance. There's a big difference.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #21 –
Quote
we aren't talking about things like overall motherboard stability, we're talking about simple audio output. I know what you're saying, but it doesn't really apply in this instance. There's a big difference.

Analog: depends a lot of the overall implementation. Not as much for digital (SPDIF); however, early SB Live! had almost 5V instead of the standard ~1.5V and there have been cases of fried receivers/DACs. And you can also get jitter, skips, or less than 16bit resolution when using digital connections. Just my 2 cents.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #22 –
way to read the thread...we're talking about the digital output of nforce2 based motherboards with the dolby digital encoder, no other products.

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #23 –
Sound quality on digital outputs should be the same in this case, unless there were PCI latency issues on one of the mobos (would be noticed as audible clicks and pops), or one of them had a very unstable spdif clock leading to audible jitter, and the other didn't. But jitter doesn't seem to be much of an issue in modern soundcards. Anyway, any of that would be hard to say without some measurements or properly executed blind tests.
 

nVidia Soundstorm RMAA Test

Reply #24 –
Quote
The only point that there could be any difference is in the analog output stage, where DAC used etc is all up to the different board manufacturers' discretion, which we're ignoring in this case.


  I agree that analog output differences (via different CODECs and implementations of the CODECs) are probably much much more likely to be audible than SPDIF output differences.

  This does not necessarily mean that there will be no SPDIF output differences (in terms of jitter), as KikeG pointed out. You'd have to measure to be sure.

Thanks for the clarification on DD encoding, btw.