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Topic: EAC vs Apple Lossless (Read 13771 times) previous topic - next topic
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EAC vs Apple Lossless

I just completed extensive testing with the help of a former recording engineer. No matter how we create an Apple Lossless disc it sounds more compressed and pinched than an EAC disk. (I know we're burning to a CD to put it on a high resolution system but we don't have a way to go digital out to a DAC at the moment.) Eventually these files will be played direct from hard drive to DAC.

The closest we could get was burning a WAV file in iTunes @ 44.1/16. Its still a little more processed sounding than EAC, not as quiet and not as much analog sounding or vast a soundstage but its much, much better than Apple Lossless. Still not good enough to burn a whole collection knowing these rips are inferior to what could be.

Anyone know how to slow down the importing speed of iTunes? It brings it in up to 32x whereas EAC does it only up to 10x. If its just not possible to get the same quality of rip on iTunes as EAC is there a way to rip with EAC and have iTunes import without compressing the files again?

TIA.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #1 –
Lossless is lossless!

I just ripped a track form a CD to wave using EAC and ripped the same track to Apple lossless using iTunes.

After decompressing the Apple lossless file to wave I compared it to the one ripped by EAC.

Byte for byte, the files were identical.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #2 –
Feel free to use search and discover all the magic "Lossless is Lossless" postings.  Sorry, same data in... same data out... with or without a "former recording engineer." 

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #4 –
Did you start with 16/44.1 source?

If you started with more bits (24+) or greater sampling, then the difference may be in the dithering or rate conversion.

If not, you may have engaged on if iTunes' limiters or equalizers, as others suggested, either in playback or format conversion.

How are you playing the track back? are you playing the original and the compressed version through the same playback path? If you are using the analog outs on your motherboard or sound card, they can sound quite different from your other non-pc sources.  Your sound card drivers may also be inserting some compression/equalization of their own - and calling it some kind of optimization.
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #5 –
First thanks everyone for answering.

I know the lossless is lossless is a big deal. I can invite you over and you will be amazed that it isn't true.

In order to hear it on a high resolution stereo I burned CDs. I was careful to go through iTunes and turn off everthing that might interfer. The source are redbook CDs. EAC work was done on a cheap PC and burned using a Plextor Pro drive. That same drive was connected then to the Mac with machine and drive on isolation transformers to cut the line noise down. Basically everything on the PC was duplicated on the Mac. The only difference with the ripping/burning software.

I checked the limiters and such and everything is turned off. Unless I'm still missing something.

I've been involved in high end audio for 25 years either personally or professionally. You don't have to be a recording engineer to hear the difference between the EAC and Apple Lossless burns.


Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on
Did you start with 16/44.1 source?

If you started with more bits (24+) or greater sampling, then the difference may be in the dithering or rate conversion.

If not, you may have engaged on if iTunes' limiters or equalizers, as others suggested, either in playback or format conversion.

How are you playing the track back? are you playing the original and the compressed version through the same playback path? If you are using the analog outs on your motherboard or sound card, they can sound quite different from your other non-pc sources.  Your sound card drivers may also be inserting some compression/equalization of their own - and calling it some kind of optimization.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #6 –
Maybe you should post a sample then

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #7 –
User error.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #8 –
Quote from: phrarod on
I know the lossless is lossless is a big deal. I can invite you over and you will be amazed that it isn't true.

In order to hear it on a high resolution stereo I burned CDs. I was careful to go through iTunes and turn off everthing that might interfer. The source are redbook CDs. EAC work was done on a cheap PC and burned using a Plextor Pro drive. That same drive was connected then to the Mac with machine and drive on isolation transformers to cut the line noise down. Basically everything on the PC was duplicated on the Mac. The only difference with the ripping/burning software.

I checked the limiters and such and everything is turned off. Unless I'm still missing something.

I've been involved in high end audio for 25 years either personally or professionally. You don't have to be a recording engineer to hear the difference between the EAC and Apple Lossless burns.


When you encoded the EAC lossless what encoder did you use, and with what settings? (FLAC, Monkey's, TAC, Apple Lossless, etc)
How did you play the files back? Through the PC or did you re-convert the lossless files to wav's and burn them to a CD?

Did you play the EAC lossless and Apple lossless files or resulting CD's on identical systems?

Did you use any CD error correction in your ripping?

Try this:
(1) Start with a single CD. Rip a track to a wav file on each system.
(2) Do a bit for bit comparison of the wav files. If they are not identical, then the issue is with your ripping.
(3) If they ARE identical, encode the wav's  to FLAC using EAC, and also to Apple Lossless using iTunes
(4) then re-convert the resulting lossless files BACK to wav files
(5) do a bit for bit comparison between the 2nd gen Wav files and the original wav files. Are they identical?

If they are identical, then by definition, there is no loss, and whatever difference you hear cannot be attributed to lossless compression.

If the files are NOT identical, then something in your chain is introducing error.
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #9 –
Yeah you screwed up.  Go over everything component by component until you figure out how.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #10 –
Quote from: phrarod on
...
I know the lossless is lossless is a big deal. I can invite you over and you will be amazed that it isn't true.
...


I can assure you that Apple Lossless is in fact lossless.  This topic has been discussed many times here by people claiming they can hear a difference between a WAV file and a Apple Lossless file.  You might be hearing a difference but it isn't due to the Apple Lossless audio format, is probably an error somewhere on your part.  Follow UrbanVoyeur's steps.  If they comeback to the bit identical then there is something wrong with your perception (placebo) or your playback equipment.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #12 –
Quote from: phrarod on
I've been involved in high end audio for 25 years either personally or professionally. You don't have to be a recording engineer to hear the difference between the EAC and Apple Lossless burns.


You have to be an hi-fi enthusiast to hear that difference.
The problem you are encountering is between keyboard and a chair; obviously, if you hear a difference between track1.wav and losslessly compressed track1.wav, than you have serious software problems.
TAPE LOADING ERROR

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #13 –
Quote from: phrarod on
That same drive was connected then to the Mac with machine and drive on isolation transformers to cut the line noise down.

This is enough for me to tell that you don't have the slightest idea as to how this works.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #14 –
Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on
Quote from: phrarod on

I know the lossless is lossless is a big deal. I can invite you over and you will be amazed that it isn't true.

In order to hear it on a high resolution stereo I burned CDs. I was careful to go through iTunes and turn off everthing that might interfer. The source are redbook CDs. EAC work was done on a cheap PC and burned using a Plextor Pro drive. That same drive was connected then to the Mac with machine and drive on isolation transformers to cut the line noise down. Basically everything on the PC was duplicated on the Mac. The only difference with the ripping/burning software.

I checked the limiters and such and everything is turned off. Unless I'm still missing something.

I've been involved in high end audio for 25 years either personally or professionally. You don't have to be a recording engineer to hear the difference between the EAC and Apple Lossless burns.


When you encoded the EAC lossless what encoder did you use, and with what settings? (FLAC, Monkey's, TAC, Apple Lossless, etc)
How did you play the files back? Through the PC or did you re-convert the lossless files to wav's and burn them to a CD?


I used the WAV settings in EAC and burned using Pextools to CD.



Did you play the EAC lossless and Apple lossless files or resulting CD's on identical systems?

Well EAC was WAV which is uncompressed is that's a fair comparison then yes. I also burned under every possible scheme within iTunes.


Did you use any CD error correction in your ripping?

No.

Try this:
(1) Start with a single CD. Rip a track to a wav file on each system.
(2) Do a bit for bit comparison of the wav files. If they are not identical, then the issue is with your ripping.

When I compare the digital files the EAC files are larger than the Apple Lossless. Not by a lot. It works out to around 2 seconds for every 3 minutes of song play time.


(3) If they ARE identical, encode the wav's  to FLAC using EAC, and also to Apple Lossless using iTunes
(4) then re-convert the resulting lossless files BACK to wav files
(5) do a bit for bit comparison between the 2nd gen Wav files and the original wav files. Are they identical?

This is something I would have to do. I did not.

If they are identical, then by definition, there is no loss, and whatever difference you hear cannot be attributed to lossless compression.

If the files are NOT identical, then something in your chain is introducing error.


To be safe we did this on my friends setup. A much dirtier setup with no line conditioning. He has a PC and a Mac. Different models and era's of mine. Each time the same results. Even play back direct out from the computer (allow not a trick playback such as USB to DAC but headphone to studio monitors) you could hear the difference immediately.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #15 –
Quote from: phrarod on
To be safe we did this on my friends setup. A much dirtier setup with no line conditioning. He has a PC and a Mac. Different models and era's of mine. Each time the same results. Even play back direct out from the computer (allow not a trick playback such as USB to DAC but headphone to studio monitors) you could hear the difference immediately.
And this proves that Apple lossless is not lossless?

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #16 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: phrarod on
That same drive was connected then to the Mac with machine and drive on isolation transformers to cut the line noise down.

This is enough for me to tell that you don't have the slightest idea as to how this works.



Its so clearly obvious you have no experience in the recording or duplicating industry that its hysterical. But it must be a comfort to you knowing your limited knowledge is limitless. Best you run away before you learn something.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #17 –
Quote from: phrarod on
Its so clearly obvious you have no experience in the recording or duplicating industry that its hysterical. But it must be a comfort to you knowing your limited knowledge is limitless. Best you run away before you learn something.

Your experience in the recording industry means nothing with regards to the problems you're having. They can be boiled down to two things:

1) There is something seriously wrong with your set-up.
2) You're suffering from the placebo effect. (see my ABX link)

Now 1) is extremely unlikely. Read UrbanVoyeur's post again and follow his suggestions, all of them. This will provide us with a process of elimination so we can work forward ... Otherwise, this thread may end up in the trash.  If there is something he's stated you're unclear on, ask.
daefeatures.co.uk

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #18 –
Quote from: phrarod on
Its so clearly obvious you have no experience in the recording or duplicating industry that its hysterical. But it must be a comfort to you knowing your limited knowledge is limitless. Best you run away before you learn something.

Read and follow TOS #8 and learn the meaning of the term "lossless" before you question someone who apparently has far more knowledge in the duplicating process.
Nothing is impossible if you don't need to do it yourself.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #19 –
Quote from: phrarod on
Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on

When you encoded the EAC lossless what encoder did you use, and with what settings? (FLAC, Monkey's, TAC, Apple Lossless, etc)
How did you play the files back? Through the PC or did you re-convert the lossless files to wav's and burn them to a CD?

I used the WAV settings in EAC and burned using Pextools to CD.

Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on
Did you play the EAC lossless and Apple lossless files or resulting CD's on identical systems?

Well EAC was WAV which is uncompressed is that's a fair comparison then yes. I also burned under every possible scheme within iTunes.

Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on
Did you use any CD error correction in your ripping?

No.

Quote
Try this:
(1) Start with a single CD. Rip a track to a wav file on each system.
(2) Do a bit for bit comparison of the wav files. If they are not identical, then the issue is with your ripping.

When I compare the digital files the EAC files are larger than the Apple Lossless. Not by a lot. It works out to around 2 seconds for every 3 minutes of song play time.

Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on
(3) If they ARE identical, encode the wav's  to FLAC using EAC, and also to Apple Lossless using iTunes
(4) then re-convert the resulting lossless files BACK to wav files
(5) do a bit for bit comparison between the 2nd gen Wav files and the original wav files. Are they identical?

This is something I would have to do. I did not.

To be safe we did this on my friends setup. A much dirtier setup with no line conditioning. He has a PC and a Mac. Different models and era's of mine. Each time the same results. Even play back direct out from the computer (allow not a trick playback such as USB to DAC but headphone to studio monitors) you could hear the difference immediately.


I re parsed your reply for clarity. It may be worth your while to take a few minutes to figure out how to use the quote embedding system so you can make you replies stand out.

Reading through, it's clear that you are confusing quite a few concepts - I mean no offense when I say this - I'm just pointing out a truth.

Before we begin clearing this up (by we I mean not just me but the HA community), please note that MANY of the posters and reader here are either professional or hobbyist recording engineers. You will also find the programmers and mathematicians behind many of the current audio codecs. It would be imprudent to lightly dismiss this collective knowledge and experience.
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #20 –
Ok.

First off - WAV, as we all know is uncompressed.  Lossless audio formats include FLAC, Monkey's Audio, Apple Lossless, TAK, WavPac and a number of others.

They are called lossless because in the conversion chain Wav-1-->Lossless-1a-->Wav-1b,  Wav-1b is identical in every way to the original Wav-1. Always and everywhere, by definition. If this is not the case either there is something wrong with your equipment, or less likely, there is a bug in the conversion, which will be dealt with post haste. (unless the codec programmer *likes* to be stoned in public, in which case this forum will gladly bury him...)

What does identical mean? Using a bit-for-bit file comparison program, the content of the two files are identical. This is NOT a listening test, but a block by block comparison of the file's structure and bits.  Foobar has a tool built in, but there are many others.

To get a wav file from a standard, "redbook" audio CD you must "rip" it, using a tool like EAC to iTunes to convert the digital stream off the cd to a wav file.  Sometimes CD's are not read perfectly (dust, vibration, surface anomalies), such that subsequent wav's ripped from a single cd can differ.

That's where error correction and databases like AccurateRip come in. Please read the EAC Wiki. Using error correction and/or AccurateRip, it is possible to produce reproducibly identical wav's.

Producing a wav is only the first step - it then must be encoded into the compressed format of your choice. That is accomplished using the codecs to one of the formats mentioned above. (FLAC, TAK, ALAC, etc)

Given that you were comparing Wav files to Apple Lossless file by looking at size, rather then bits, I and others here don't think your fully understand or control your processes.

So to help you and us figure out what is going on in you system, please take the time to work though the steps I suggested, as listed, and tell us what you've found.
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #21 –
I know a man that says that lossy formats allways sounds terribly, that ape doesn't sounds good enough, that flac sounds better! But when we tried to check this- he couldn't ABX mp3 lame 128 vs original Wave.  Then he starts saying that this is because of foobar2000 bad sound quality, and the best sound quality coulв be achieved only in DOS. And there must be no buffer to reduse jitter and bla-bla-bla. I dont belive in it  , but he does!

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #22 –
Quote from: phrarod on
Quote from: greynol on

Quote from: phrarod on
That same drive was connected then to the Mac with machine and drive on isolation transformers to cut the line noise down.

This is enough for me to tell that you don't have the slightest idea as to how this works.



Its so clearly obvious you have no experience in the recording or duplicating industry that its hysterical. But it must be a comfort to you knowing your limited knowledge is limitless. Best you run away before you learn something.


I agree with greynol's point.  Your comments above are ... odd for anyone with experience.

Seems like its time for you to stuff away your pride and learn something new.

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #23 –
Ok here's a really basic question for pharod:

What kind of CD drive are you using and how is it connected to the Mac and the PC?
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

EAC vs Apple Lossless

Reply #24 –
Quote from: phrarod on
I've been involved in high end audio for 25 years either personally or professionally. You don't have to be a recording engineer to hear the difference between the EAC and Apple Lossless burns.

Oh, for the love of god!

Code: [Select]
[bjoern@titan ~]$ md5sum original.wav 
3c693e578fc7252717d0a0505d02acae  original.wav
[bjoern@titan ~]$ 
[bjoern@titan ~]$ wavpack original.wav -o compressed.wv

 WAVPACK  Hybrid Lossless Audio Compressor  Linux Version 4.40.0
 Copyright (c) 1998 - 2006 Conifer Software.  All Rights Reserved.

creating compressed.wv,   0% done...
created compressed.wv in 0.00 secs (lossless, 50.29%)        
[bjoern@titan ~]$ 
[bjoern@titan ~]$ wvunpack compressed.wv -o decompressed.wav

 WVUNPACK  Hybrid Lossless Audio Decompressor  Linux Version 4.40.0
 Copyright (c) 1998 - 2006 Conifer Software.  All Rights Reserved.

restoring decompressed.wav, 100% done...
restored decompressed.wav in 0.00 secs (lossless, 50.29%)        
[bjoern@titan ~]$ 
[bjoern@titan ~]$ md5sum decompressed.wav 
3c693e578fc7252717d0a0505d02acae  decompressed.wav
[bjoern@titan ~]$ 
[bjoern@titan ~]$ cmp original.wav decompressed.wav
[bjoern@titan ~]$

Notice that the original file and the decompressed file are identical? (No, this isn't Apple Lossless, but it doesn't matter. It applies to any lossless format).