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Topic: Vorbis better than opus?  (Read 19668 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vorbis better than opus?

Okay, so I have some original flacs ripped from cds. I took an abx test and turns out I can't see any difference. But still, I want a little safeguard just in case. So I experimented with some codecs, notably opus and vorbis, and I noticed something. Whenever I use the highest quality available,(vorbis q10 ~500kbps and opus 512kbps), and scan the files with Spek, vorbis has cut off a lot less of the high end frequencies, while opus cuts it off at 20khz, just like an mp3 320kbps. Why is that? Wasn't opus supposed to be the evolution of vorbis? So why is it outperformed by vorbis?
Also, just another question, does transcoding from vorbis degrade considerably audio quality?
Using latest libraries on soundkonverter, Linux.
Thanks so much! Best wishes!

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #1 –
No one can hear frequencies above 20kHz. Why should Opus waste space encoding frequencies that no one will be able to hear?

If you want a pretty spectrogram, encode your audio with an image codec like JPEG instead. It won't sound very good, but it will look pretty.

Or stick to lossless.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #2 –
Quote
I can't see any difference.
You mean you can't hear a difference?  ;)

Lossy compression has to throw-away some information.   If you keep high frequencies that you can't hear you might end-up throwing-away something more important.

Perceptual encoding mostly works by throwing-away sounds that are masked (drowned-out) by other sounds.   As I understand it, at most settings MP3 takes a shortcut and assumes the highest frequencies will be masked and it throws-away the highest frequencies with little or no analysis.

If you hear a compression artifact or if you can hear a difference in an ABX test, it's usually NOT the loss of high frequencies that you hear (assuming a reasonable quality/bitrate setting) but it's the easiest thing to measure.   Looking a the spectrum is NOT not a good way of comparing sound quality.   It's probably easy to make a bad-sounding compression algorithm that makes nice-looking spectrums. 
 

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Octocontrabass on
No one can hear frequencies above 20kHz. Why should Opus waste space encoding frequencies that no one will be able to hear?
I can hear frequencies above 20KHz, confirmed by ABX, with and without 20KHz lowpass. So it does matter to me to keep them when full quality matters. Opus is highly efficient, and is a lot like a streaming successor to MP3, but Vorbis aoTuV at higher bit rates sounds clearer to my ears than most other formats. Not everyone will have the same opinions on which codecs are more transparent to them personally but Vorbis will likely get the job done between -q8 and -q9.5 and reasonably keep some of the higher frequencies.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: ajp9 on
I can hear frequencies above 20KHz, confirmed by ABX, with and without 20KHz lowpass.

How can you hear frequencies above 20 Khz if a filter is filtering everything above 20 Khz? I'm confused.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Octocontrabass on
No one can hear frequencies above 20kHz.
That is inaccurate - test subjects have heard 28 kHz - but in this study it took more than 90 dB: https://asa.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1121/1.2761883

And yes it is a well-reputed lab.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #6 –
Thanks everyone for your feedbacks! What codecs do yall use and at what bit rate?

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: ajp9 on
I can hear frequencies above 20KHz, confirmed by ABX, with and without 20KHz lowpass.

This guy is smoking some good shit, lol.
Anyway, nobody is using Vorbis anymore. It is dead format.

If you want compatiblity and good all-around format stick with MP3.
Use latest LAME encoder and use V2 preset. You will get ~192 kbit/s files that work everywhere and sound great.

If your equipment has been made in the past ~15 years you can use AAC-LC.
Recommended encoder is Apple (qaac). Ideal bitrate is around 144-160 kbit/s.

Third "relevant" format acording to HydrogenAudio is Opus. This is totally false in real life.
Even today, many programs have problems with playing Opus files. It is really only useful for VoIP applications.
I can guarantee you that every single person on HA that is using Opus is very familiar with compatibility
problem but they also have lossless archive so they can encode to any format that they want.

Main point of lossy files is transparency at smallest bitrate. Lossy codecs achieve this at 192 kbit/s.
Everything about 192 kbit/s kills the point of lossy files.
gold plated toslink fan
 

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: dalcinrafa on
Thanks everyone for your feedbacks! What codecs do yall use and at what bit rate?
Lossless for to keep - transcoding to two-figure bitrate for on-the-road. Opus because it impressed me ... and because artists don't use it much for free downloads, so by using Opus I "know it is my own transcode", and those files are disposable.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Markuza97 on
Anyway, nobody is using Vorbis anymore. It is dead format.

As long as the biggest streaming platform is using Ogg/Vorbis I don't consider it a dead format...
Personally I still use it for lossy because it has bettter gapless playback support than mp3 and Opus, and because it has better compatibility than Opus.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: zordaz on
Quote from: Markuza97 on
Anyway, nobody is using Vorbis anymore. It is dead format.

Personally I still use it for lossy because it has bettter gapless playback support than mp3 and Opus, and because it has better compatibility than Opus.
Same for me.
And it's far from being dead especially with Android running on ~80% of the mobile devices.
But I agree that MP3 is the best choice for best compatibility.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #11 –
At high bitrates Vorbis is indeed better than Opus which was quite a revelation for me when I actually tested both.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: birdie on
At high bitrates Vorbis is indeed better than Opus which was quite a revelation for me when I actually tested both.
I'm sure you have some logs to offer.

I don't have any tools akin to SSIM for videos but I trust spectrograms and auCDtect output which puts Vorbis above Opus.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: birdie on
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: birdie on
At high bitrates Vorbis is indeed better than Opus which was quite a revelation for me when I actually tested both.
I'm sure you have some logs to offer.

I don't have any tools akin to SSIM for videos but I trust spectrograms and auCDtect output which puts Vorbis above Opus.

How many times have you been pointed at this forum's terms of service?

You have not "actually tested both" for being any "better".

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: birdie on
Quote from: Porcus on
How many times have you been pointed at this forum's terms of service?

You have not "actually tested both" for being any "better".

I have to agree with you then and withdraw my outrageously wrong statements.
It's kind of sad for us forum lurkers to see yet another one succumb to confirmation bias instead of performing some really basic scientifically valid audio comparison testing.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #17 –
Its not entirely wrong. From the perspective of very high bitrate one may prioritize spectrum over efficiency.
Extra psy bells and whistles may be perceived as a liability . In the most tuned coders- mp3 lame, vorbis, mpc ; the higher the quality level the less psychoacoustics are used .

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #18 –
It's not outrageously wrong, it just needs ABX to back it up.

In blind comparison, I can hear aoTuV Vorbis at 268+ kbps tend to deliver clearer sound to the original than the best Opus or LC-AAC encoders at the same rate, whether it be a matter of stereo fidelity or transient fidelity, or that 20KHz cutoff that I can hear when played in a car (using the AUX jack not Bluetooth). There hasn't been a listening study at that bit rate, so it might just be me and my tastes.

Quote from: Markuza97 on
Quote from: ajp9 on
I can hear frequencies above 20KHz, confirmed by ABX, with and without 20KHz lowpass.
This guy is smoking some good shit, lol.

Scientific studies on human hearing found that frequencies above 20KHz are difficult to hear, not that you never hear them. The maximum frequency response in air has been measured from 12Hz at the lowest recorded, to 28KHz in laboratory conditions, according to The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America. (Of course, they're talking very high SPL.) The important distinction is that high and low frequencies are easily masked, not necessarily inaudible. With most listeners in the test able to hear 22KHz, I know I'm not alone at being able to ABX a 20KHz cutoff.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #19 –
Lots of claims - not a single ABX. Something is very wrong here.

People like you are the reason why we have stuff like MQA and 24-bit/192kHz downloads...
gold plated toslink fan

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: ajp9 on
It's not outrageously wrong, it just needs ABX to back it up.

In blind comparison, I can hear aoTuV Vorbis at 268+ kbps tend to deliver clearer sound to the original than the best Opus or LC-AAC encoders at the same rate, whether it be a matter of stereo fidelity or transient fidelity, or that 20KHz cutoff that I can hear when played in a car (using the AUX jack not Bluetooth). There hasn't been a listening study at that bit rate, so it might just be me and my tastes.
I think you can probably share the methodology and results so that Mr Birdie can perhaps get started on HIS double blind comparison.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: shadowking on
Its not entirely wrong. From the perspective of very high bitrate one may prioritize spectrum over efficiency.
Extra psy bells and whistles may be perceived as a liability . In the most tuned coders- mp3 lame, vorbis, mpc ; the higher the quality level the less psychoacoustics are used .

Will be nice to have some actual data on how these codecs work rather than intellectual theories.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Markuza97 on
People like you are the reason why we have stuff like MQA and 24-bit/192kHz downloads...
Those MQA believers/shills actually don't care about >20kHz performance.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mqa-deep-dive-i-published-music-on-tidal-to-test-mqa.22549/post-808088

They worship the so-called time-domain performance, and think audio files don't follow the "rule" of triangular spectral decaying trend are not music.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mqa-deep-dive-i-published-music-on-tidal-to-test-mqa.22549/post-802823
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mqa-deep-dive-i-published-music-on-tidal-to-test-mqa.22549/post-803661

I don't know I've been listening to so many non-music for so many years, big thanks to those MQA shills teaching me what is music! LMAO.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mqa-deep-dive-i-published-music-on-tidal-to-test-mqa.22549/post-802352
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mqa-deep-dive-i-published-music-on-tidal-to-test-mqa.22549/post-807177

Of course, after losing the debate and thread-banned mansr, Amir locked the thread again, and continue to publish MQA DACs reviews with nice looking APx555 measurements.

Also a recommended thread for spectrophiles. Three pages to expose a liar.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=111736.0

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: sld on
Quote from: shadowking on
Its not entirely wrong. From the perspective of very high bitrate one may prioritize spectrum over efficiency.
Extra psy bells and whistles may be perceived as a liability . In the most tuned coders- mp3 lame, vorbis, mpc ; the higher the quality level the less psychoacoustics are used .

Will be nice to have some actual data on how these codecs work rather than intellectual theories.
You're too polite to  called it "intellectual theories", I call them what they are. BS.

All previously years they were crapposting all over the place (without any proof) how Opus or any other encoder can't compete with Musepack or LossyWAV , "king of transparency" at high bitrates.  "Opus/AAC/(put your codec here) are for low bitrates ...  bells and whistles .. b$$ b$$"
So I decided to perform actually test for this kind of people (you know, theorists ... $**t posters) and break every encoder in all possible ways with hard samples that I only could.

Ironically Opus did transparent in all of samples.  :P hahahahaha And a king of transparency Musepack was on par with AAC/Opus/Vorbis/xHE-AAC
Personal blind listening test – MultiCodec at ~192 VBR kbps

If anybody has a better proof that this, go on and post your tests ...  man I'm begging you to post your tests ...... but please keep your "perespectives and philosofical question of life" to yourself.  Because nobody gives a finger about them.

Re: Vorbis better than opus?

Reply #24 –
Hey Igor, do you know of any tests with 256k? I really wanted to know how codecs perform at that bit rate, cause I always used at least 256k. Thanks for your participation so far!