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Topic: can digital clipping cause ear damage? (Read 5969 times) previous topic - next topic
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can digital clipping cause ear damage?

This is an extension of the discussion on Lossy compression and its effects on hearing found HERE

2 parts:

1: Does digital clipping created by excessive compression and distortion at the production stage cause increased ear fatigue and eventual damage in casual listeners?

2: would heavy amplification of these files in clubs/concerts exasperate this problem. Could the lifetime expectancy of club goers ears be shorter, now that they are primarily hearing the digital medium?

any research you might know of would be a great help.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #1 –
Why should clipped signals damage your hearing more than non-clipped (with equal loudness of course)?
Q2: Heavy amplification always[/b) is a problem for the ears. If you ever heard ringing sounds after listening to loud music or other sounds you have damaged some of the cells in the inner ear. Once the fine brush-like hairs are damaged, they may stick together or be rubbed off completely

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #2 –
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Why should clipped signals damage your hearing more than non-clipped (with equal loudness of course)?
Normal music has frequency spectrum shape that has amplitude rolling off with frequency - ie. the higher the frequency, the lower the peak amplitude.

When you introduce clipping, depending on it, you can be introducing such high-frequency max-power garbage that is _never_ experienced in real life, sending much higher acoustic power out than intended or natural. It can blow out tweaters - why would you think its not damaging to your hearing? Your only safeguard is usual speaker's inability to deliver such high acoustic power that clipping can introduce.

In any venue with high acoustic power there is a risk. Single direct hit of very high energy high-frequency harmonic can damage your hearing of some particular frequency. Its not a deathening event, but you might have tinnitus coming and going, loosing ability to hear fine details you used to hear before, etc. The damage can happen unnoticed. You might never know nor be able to pinpoint later in your life where you got some particular hearing damage.


1. yes
2. yes, evidently. Though its not a fault of the medium, but that of what horror things they do with it.
It really really did sound different. Not in a placebo way.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #3 –
I don't believe clipping is dangerous at normal listening levels. I think at high levels it is just as damaging as any other audio signal that is played too loud.

I find it hard to believe that hair cells will damage/break sooner when they encounter sounds we're not used to. But, I have not (yet) studied the mechanisms inside the human ear, so I might be wrong.

edit: I must add, that the hair cells that respond to higher frequencies are more vulnerable than the ones for lower frequencies (that's why older people loose their ability to hear high frequencies), so maybe there is some truth in this. However, I don't think the effect is large, since the harmonic distortion is not much louder than the original signal (in fact, while some higher frequencies are amplified, others are attenuated, see my post here).

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #4 –
Minor sidenote: the original reference which did lead to the creation of this topic, was made by me. I wrote - partially ironic/joking - that at high volume levels, clipping would be more probable to be a health-concern, than lossy encoded music. Reason for this suggestion was that lossy encoders try to sound as similiar to the original signal as possible, while clipping is doing the opposite.
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #5 –
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Minor sidenote: the original reference which did lead to the creation of this topic, was made by me. I wrote - partially ironic/joking - that at high volume levels, clipping would be more probable to be a health-concern, than lossy encoded music. Reason for this suggestion was that lossy encoders try to sound as similiar to the original signal as possible, while clipping is doing the opposite.
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Yup, it was lyxs suggestion that led to the creaton of this topic.  i thought you were serious, and it made sense. it still does. Let me ask you this.

we agree clipping can cause additional damge at high frequencies with heavy amplification.

When we re-encode a digital file into a codec are we not introducing additional clipping as each sample is rounded off?  Is the amount of digital rounding (or clipping) not tied to the quality of the encoding?

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #6 –
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we agree clipping can cause additional damge at high frequencies with heavy amplification.

I don't think anyone has actually agreed on this besides the redundant case that a too-loud signal will cause damage, whether clipped or not.

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When we re-encode a digital file into a codec are we not introducing additional clipping as each sample is rounded off?  Is the amount of digital rounding (or clipping) not tied to the quality of the encoding?

Rounding does not equal clipping.

This whole conversation is pointless. Neither digital lossy compression (mp3) not clipping can cause ear damage, save for the way they might raise the volume of the signal. Ear damage is caused by sound level, ie air pressure. Over-loud sound creates damage by a) damaging the hair cells and b) reducing blood flow through the inner ear. In both cases it doesn't really matter what the content of the sound is, only the level.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #7 –
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This whole conversation is pointless. Neither digital lossy compression (mp3) not clipping can cause ear damage, save for the way they might raise the volume of the signal. Ear damage is caused by sound level, ie air pressure. Over-loud sound creates damage by a) damaging the hair cells and b) reducing blood flow through the inner ear. In both cases it doesn't really matter what the content of the sound is, only the level.
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No conversation is pointless, but I do see your point. I will do more research on the specifics of hearing loss.

I have one more question though. If mp3s have a wider dynamic range than traditional analogue systems, would we have a tendancy to play them at lower volumes? There-fore could they actually be less of a risk?

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #8 –
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I have one more question though. If mp3s have a wider dynamic range than traditional analogue systems, would we have a tendancy to play them at lower volumes? There-fore could they actually be less of a risk?
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The dynamic range depends on the source - theoretically mp3 may reach the same dynamic range as the input signal, that is 24 bit. But I don't know when the ATH comes in, maybe at higher levels.
I think you are right, we would play highly dynamic music at lower volumes because otherwise the peaks will be too loud. But this is independent of digital or analog source. Most recent digital recordings (except classical music) offer a lower dynamic range than 70s or 80s analog recordings. See the many "loudness Race" threads. This is why "modern" recordings sound much louder although the peak volume is not higher.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #9 –
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I have one more question though. If mp3s have a wider dynamic range than traditional analogue systems, would we have a tendancy to play them at lower volumes? There-fore could they actually be less of a risk?
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The dynamic range depends on the source - theoretically mp3 may reach the same dynamic range as the input signal, that is 24 bit. But I don't know when the ATH comes in, maybe at higher levels.

But it will never exceed the dynamic range of the source, right?

Quote
I think you are right, we would play highly dynamic music at lower volumes because otherwise the peaks will be too loud. But this is independent of digital or analog source. Most recent digital recordings (except classical music) offer a lower dynamic range than 70s or 80s analog recordings. See the many "loudness Race" threads. This is why "modern" recordings sound much louder although the peak volume is not higher.
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You can think the other way around: I tend to play older recordings with a high dynamic range louder, because otherwise the dips are too soft.

I remember a note in the booklet of "Disintegration" by the Cure, that says: "This CD is mastered with the intention to be played at a high volume", or something.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #10 –
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But it will never exceed the dynamic range of the source, right?
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Not as long as musical content is encoded - only when all subbands are lower than ATH and therefore being muted.

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You can think the other way around: I tend to play older recordings with a high dynamic range louder, because otherwise the dips are too soft.
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Yes that's right
I also play them louder, but the average level still remains lower. The louder peaks however might harm the hair cells as much or more than higher average sound pressure - don't know  .

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #11 –
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But it will never exceed the dynamic range of the source, right?
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Not as long as musical content is encoded - only when all subbands are lower than ATH and therefore being muted.

True, but you won't hear those subbands anyway, so this will not contribute to a higher dynamic range. On the other hand, maybe on higher volumes, when the ATH curve becomes more flat, it will.

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I also play them louder, but the average level still remains lower. The louder peaks however might harm the hair cells as much or more than higher average sound pressure - don't know  .
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I don't think you should be *that* paranoid. The pressure should be very high before hair cells actually get damaged.

can digital clipping cause ear damage?

Reply #12 –
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I don't think you should be *that* paranoid. The pressure should be very high before hair cells actually get damaged.
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LOL 
Only tried to keep the post on topic