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Topic: [TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]  (Read 33156 times) previous topic - next topic
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[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Well since my last post was moved to a read only section as a "baiting" post, which it wasn't intended as, then let me rephrase the question:

How many of you here in this thread, discussing the debate we've had with Ethan, have actually mixed a full album?

Anyone?

Mixerman

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Mixerman on
Well since my last post was moved to a read only section as a "baiting" post, which it wasn't intended as, then let me rephrase the question:

How many of you here in this thread, discussing the debate we've had with Ethan, have actually mixed a full album?

Anyone?

Mixerman


And how many state wrestling titles have YOU won?

With all due respect, how are mixing and computer engineering / electrical engineering / signal processing the same fields?  I think this thread has covered the "experience in one field != authority in another" thing a few pages back in the conversation around Barry Diament's credentials as a mastering engineer.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Mixerman on
Well since my last post was moved to a read only section as a "baiting" post, which it wasn't intended as, then let me rephrase the question:

How many of you here in this thread, discussing the debate we've had with Ethan, have actually mixed a full album?

Anyone?


You do realize you're using the Chewbacca defense, right?

EDIT: Well, sorta. We've already labored the point of domain experience to death - to re-assert one's experience in (partial) response is strangely dissonant.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #4 –
Quote from: greynol on
Cut to the chase or you'll find your this most recent post binned as well.


No worries. You've allowed Ethan to claim we moderated him at the Womb because we somehow can't debate him, and here you are moderating me. I'm sure (as someone that moderates a forum) it's because you have certain rules of engagement and I'm breaking those rules (unwittingly in this case, I promise). I apologize for that. I always try to act in accordance with how others wish to run their forums. I'll take my leave, but thanks for making that point for me, and all that I request is that you keep this post up as rebuttal to Ethan's direct complaints about how he was treated at the Womb.

Thanks,

Mixerman

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #5 –
Just trying to cut down on the noise/useless posts.  I'm not going to let you prolong some silly question when you can just as easily make your point; you're just wasting our time.

As for malice, he has done very little to advance this discussion.  In fact, I would suggest that he's actually done more harm than good in defending your forum's reputation.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #6 –
@dwoz: Please leave the kids out of it. You did it before on the other forum if my memory serves me right and now you do it again here. It is not fair to instrumentalize them, they cannot resist. And in my experience kids are always drawn out of the shadow of ignorance when the person drawing them looses argumentative ground.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Mixerman on
Well since my last post was moved to a read only section as a "baiting" post, which it wasn't intended as, then let me rephrase the question:

How many of you here in this thread, discussing the debate we've had with Ethan, have actually mixed a full album?

What does it matter in a discussion about DBT?

Again I ask you to make your point.
"We cannot win against obsession. They care, we don't. They win."

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #8 –
Quote from: dwoz on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: dwoz on
The part that concerns me, is that one doesn't even have to go to tests, to disprove your conjectures.  They fall on general theory.



This looks for all the world like a totally vague, unsubstantiated claim.

I'd like to see this person who hides behind the Dwoz nym actually stop walking on the ceiling, find just one thing that was actually said in the video, not some paraprhase, and let's take this puppy apart.


What on earth does that mean?  You callin' me out, girlfriend?



I know better than to do such a thing Dwoz because you hide behind aliases and just disappear from places like rec.audio.pro, never to be heard from again. I still post there just about every day. Unless you're hiding under some other alias, you've been long gone. Just another case of light driving out darkness, I guess.

Quote
Arny, I've been reading your spouting nonsense on the internet pipes since the old days of rec.audio.pro...this is not our first meeting, by far.


When you ran away from rec.audio.pro and hid in the womb Dwoz, you did take away some of my fun.  ;-)


Quote
Since back before you and tommy nousaine used to scratch each other's eyeballs out with sharpened faux fingernails...


Just another one of your misapprehensions, Dwoz. You've got it all wrong. Tpm and I never go at each other because we've got plenty of people like you to do together.  We're the best of friends. We had dinner together last week. His girlfriend and my wife a good friends as well.

You know Dwoz that us real flesh-and-blood people who unlike you can admit our real names in public are running a conspiracy against you, right? ;-)  Face-to-face meetings, drinking adult beverages together and all the rest!


Quote
Ok, let's start, shall we?  This will have "math" in it, so go find your kid and ask for his help.


Which kid should I ask, Dwoz? The boy with a PhD, the girl with a PhD, or the dumb one with just a degree in Chemical engineering and a MBA? Oh, and a dual major in Environmental Engineering. Which one should I ask Dwoz? Do you even have any kids who graduated from High School? Did you ever have a stable relationship that lasted long enough so that you raised any kids at all? Does sex the way you like it even ever make kids? ;-)

Just another benefit of being a flesh-and-blood real person.

Quote
Ethan "debunks" the myth that recording many different tracks through the same components will cause a "stacking up" of that component's sonic characteristic.  He says, that whatever it imparts to the individual tracks, can be COMPLETELY compensated by applying an inverse effect ONCE to the master summing buss.



That would be the disembowewled Dwoz version of what Ethan *really* said.  Got an actual quote or just your self-serving hear-say?

<I'm betting that Dwoz can't master the profundities of the cross-forum cut and paste> ;-)


[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #9 –
Gentlemen, please!
This HA forum used to be rather free of usenet style discussions and I sincerely hope it will stay like that.
Thank you.
 

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote
Ok, let's start, shall we?  This will have "math" in it, so go find your kid and ask for his help.
Which kid should I ask, Dwoz? The boy with a PhD, the girl with a PhD, or the dumb one with just a degree in Chemical engineering and a MBA? Oh, and a dual major in Environmental Engineering. Which one should I ask Dwoz? Do you even have any kids who graduated from High School? Did you ever have a stable relationship that lasted long enough so that you raised any kids at all? Does sex the way you like it even ever make kids? ;-)
As somebody who has no interest in these threads I am more than happy to just close it, if people can't play nice.  There's a lot of petty name calling that I'm willing to ignore, but this has gone past that.

Play nice, or don't play at all. I really don't care either way.
I'm on a horse.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #11 –
I didn't realise that questioning someone's sexuality, their social aptitude, or their children's' intellect was our regular programming.  In any case, please continue with your On Topic arguments.
I'm on a horse.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #12 –

Hey folks!


So, had a great day today.  Bought a car.  Used it to bring my daughter to her ballet rehearsal.  Gotta say, it's never a bad day when you're spending it hanging with the prima ballerinas of a major international ballet company.


I see that Arny has replied.  Good.  I'm curious though...I had hoped to see a very well-reasoned rebuttal to my discussion about why "stacking" occurs...I saw one reply from a rather terse dude who's sporting a cork two sizes too big...and I think I answered his objection.  Granted the tit-for-tat was somewhat ugly, but I'm one of the original "shit-brigadiers" from way back...old habits die hard.

Did you have anything to say about the math itself, Arny?  Did you see where I was going, where you'd have to be able to apply the inverse function to the summed signal, and have that be the exact same thing as applying it to the source tracks individually?  That's how the mathematical "sentence" is constructed from Ethan's dialog. I wonder if you felt that was rigorous or not, and what I'd have to do to improve it?

It's not a terribly important point that I've made, but you did challenge me to start providing proofs of what I meant. 

By the way, I am wondering what I was thinking of...I had remembered you and Nousaine as being sworn enemies.  I guess my memory is suffering.  Got to say, the whole ABX religion thing that you guys practice is a little tiresome.  And because I find it tiresome, doesn't mean I don't believe in it.  I just feel like I can skip the abx communion wafers once in a while and not risk being barred from audio heaven.

Which child of mine are you talking of, by the way?  the Doctor?  The ballerina?  The guitarist?  As the saying goes, I have more kids than a sudanese goat herder.  I'm also one of those "one name" guys.  If you google "dwoz", you find me in the first page.  it's not rocket science.  I'm not hiding behind this pseudonymic acronym.  My grandfather was "woz", and I'm "dee-woz".  Have been since I was about six.  I do start to understand though, why lots of guys who DO have credibility actively work to remain anonymous.  Why would they want to be constantly attacked by other internet nobodies?  It's gotta be weird.

So apparently, I'm practicing an effective kind of mating process.  If you can offer any suggestions on how I can STOP making women pregnant, I'm all ears!

I wonder...can I expect this kind of pile-on when I begin discussing the SECOND fallacy in Ethan's conjectures?

your pal

dwoz

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #13 –
Ethan, it's really SO simple.


Did I not say, at least a half dozen times, across the internet, and in this very thread, that I think it's laudable to debunk the crazies?  Did I not say that?  I DID say that!

good on you for trying. 


but sometimes, a good try is not enough.  What you've done, Ethan, is lay yourself open to being rejected by anyone with a high school math background, a small smattering of signal engineering, and a few hours of time.

when you attempt what you're doing, you HAVE TO BE RIGOROUS.  And I know I'm just going to be "some anonymous dweeb", as if that changes the reality of the discussion.

You are NOT rigorous.  Your points have to be IRONCLAD if they're to pass the sniff test.  If they don't pass the sniff test, then the crazies just point to you as PROOF of their own righteousness.

Don't take my word for it...go view Ethan's video, and really go after each point.  Dissect it.  Challenge it.  If he's right, it will withstand that challenge beautifully, right?  Unfortunately, it does not. 

DO this for yourselves!  Find out why the math doesn't agree!  THEN, use what you've learned to create a piece of debunking that cannot be refuted, cannot be challenged, and cannot help but do the kind of GOOD it is intended to.

Ethan has made a go of it, to the best of his abilities.  He's just out of his depth, and needs a bunch of sharp guys like you all to hone those arguments until they're actually correct and withstand attack.

Isn't that, after all, the whole spirit of objective scientific inquiry?  Don't you want your conjecture to stand undamaged against all sorts of empirical challenges? 

Ethan, you've made a good start.  Now it's time to finish the job, and sew up all the loose ends you've left dangling.

dwoz

p.s. --- if you all can't recognize the pervasive ad hominem attack I'm sustaining, over the last dozen posts, which hardly even sniff at the gist of the matter, then there's really not much else to discuss.  I mean, I'm going to submit this thread to wikipedia as a link, under the ad hominem topic!

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #14 –
Ugh, dwoz, you appall me. I really hope that these ballerinas you were talking about are old enough. But then, you´re 'the man'...

Now that we compare children, cars and stuff I feel that we get awfully close to comparing whose di** is the biggest. Why do I even reply to this?

BTW: I´ve googled your name and two likely possibilities came up:

1. You´re a 24 year old musician, interested in independent music who soon releases his first album. But then the children (one of them a Dr.) would be... well, very young?
2. More likely: DWOZ stands for Deaf Women of Oz. You know, the "Deaf" part really interests me.

Enough with this nonsense. What are we? Low lives?

Quote
If you can offer any suggestions on how I can STOP making women pregnant, I'm all ears!
That´s why condoms were invented, dear.

You know, I really have nothing against you. I don´t know you. But from what you are writing - or better said - how you are writing it, I don´t want to. You accuse Ethan Wiener (whom I also don´t know) of being rude, passive-aggressive etc. I´m really very sensitive to this kind of thing and for the life of me, I can´t find anything bad in Mr. Wieners writing. He´s always friendly, stays polite and tries to be argumentative. You accuse him of being the opposite while you and others were in fact the persons to start 'ad hominem' attacks. I really don´t care what you guys are talking about but the way how you, dwoz, attack personal feelings of other individuals... this isn´t exactly the way to make new friends, you know.

With the stuff I´ve written above, I´m not exactly on the path of light myself - sorry. You know, many parts of this thread remind me of another thread some months ago 'Why we need audiophiles'. These are the same kind of discussions which stray away from the matter at hand and dwelve into personal areas. And I always fall for it...
marlene-d.blogspot.com

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Cavaille on
Ugh, dwoz, you appall me. I really hope that these ballerinas you were talking about are old enough. But then, you´re 'the man'...


clearly, you've never hung out with the people who work in international dance companies.  They're amazing, fun people.  Many of them have worked directly with Balanchine, have danced with Baryshnikov,  one (in her 60's now) was the youngest ballerina to EVER be named principal ballerina of a professional dance company.  Some good stories from that woman.

You might be surprised to know, that there's lots of GUYS that dance too. Funny enough, most of them are even more "archie bunker" than I am!  So there goes your stereotypes...

But it was just offered as a mood lightener, a little token of levity.  I didn't imagine that it would add "potential pedophile" to my list of alleged defects.

 

Quote
BTW: I´ve googled your name and two likely possibilities came up:


2. More likely: DWOZ stands for Deaf Women of Oz. You know, the "Deaf" part really interests me.


I know!

Isn't that TOO PERFECT?????  I laughed for about 2 hours straight and almost had to be resuscitated when I discovered that.


dwoz

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: dwoz on
Actually, you apparently follow quite well.  I agree completely with your characterization, EXCEPT that you're not describing a real-world system, but a hypothetical one, that you'd be hard pressed to discover in actual use.

With a couple reasonable assumptions around signal level and dither, a digital console or workstation absolutely operates as an ideal linear system.



Whew!!!!


I've never heard anyone assert that before!  Brave!

     


I guess if I was to offer a rebuttal, I'd have to say "The FIFTH law of thermodynamics is GIGO".  and all systems are subject to the fifth law of thermodynamics.


dwoz

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: dwoz on
Actually, you apparently follow quite well.  I agree completely with your characterization, EXCEPT that you're not describing a real-world system, but a hypothetical one, that you'd be hard pressed to discover in actual use.

With a couple reasonable assumptions around signal level and dither, a digital console or workstation absolutely operates as an ideal linear system.




Gotta give you extra props, my friend.  I have a tendency to WANDER out at the end of a plank over shark-infested waters...but you're out there DANCIN'  !!!!!!!!


very cool.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #18 –
Quote from: dwoz on
I guess if I was to offer a rebuttal, I'd have to say "The FIFTH law of thermodynamics is GIGO".  and all systems are subject to the fifth law of thermodynamics.

 
Doesn't feel brave to me. Computers are good at math. You program the exact linear equations we've been discussing and they give you exact and reliable answers.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: dwoz on
I guess if I was to offer a rebuttal, I'd have to say "The FIFTH law of thermodynamics is GIGO".  and all systems are subject to the fifth law of thermodynamics.

 
Doesn't feel brave to me. Computers are good at math. You program the exact linear equations we've been discussing and they give you exact and reliable answers.



sure.


exact and reliable.  Just not necessarily CORRECT.


Assuming that there may be a language issue here...GIGO means "garbage in, garbage out".  even a perfect system can give you an incorrect result, if incorrect data was input.

The audio didn't get into that perfect system all by it's self!


By the way, this touches on the second point of Ethan's that I'm going to "debunk".


Computers are GREAT at computation.  They SUCK at math.


dwoz

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #20 –
dwoz, you're making a lot of claims but very few claims backed with evidence.

Computers are a lot better at math than humans are.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Canar on
dwoz, you're making a lot of claims but very few claims backed with evidence.

Computers are a lot better at math than humans are.



Are they?  Let's try:


"computer....what is the sum of 2 + 3?"


....crickets....


"computer, I asked you what the sum of 2 + 3 is?"


....dwoz is on ignore....


"computer.  See that file over there, that says 'dwozSummingProgram.java'?  execute that."


...6...


"computer.  See that NEW file over there, that says 'dwozSummingProgram.java'?  execute that."


...5....


"thank you, computer."



[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #22 –




(this one is going to be FUN, I can tell....)

dwoz

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #23 –
I'll leave the in-depth technical discussion for others, as many of the people engaging in discussion here are more knowledgable than I. However, I have to marvel at your demeanor. You seem less concerned about resolving technical misconceptions than about putting on a show.

[TOS #2, #5, #8, cluelessness and their responses]

Reply #24 –

You're pissed off at the great thread view numbers you're getting on these threads?  I'm a site admin too, so I notice that kind of stuff.

This stuff can get pretty bone-dry...so what's wrong with a bit of fun?



I'll give you a bit of a bona fide for me:


One of the systems I built, just transferred 500 MILLION DOLLARS, from banks in the USA to banks in other countries....TODAY.

These transfers were between multiple currencies with multiple fixed and floating exchange rates, a slew of pegs, a whole bevvy of other interesting things too....and over that 500 MILLION DOLLARS, the system did not lose or gain a single penny, in ANY of the currencies or accounts.

And when I designed that system, I had to go to great lengths to prevent the computer from eating pennies.  Because, well, I don't like being charged with international felony.

Computers don't do math.  They compute exactly what you ask them to.  It's the PROGRAMMER that does the math.  That's what my little zen story was for.  In fact, often the programmer must do crazy things to prevent the computer from doing VERY bad math.

This is why you should never, ever believe that "32 bit float" is "accurate".  It is no more accurate than the toothbrush you brush your teeth with.  It is, however, quite PRECISE.  there's a major difference between accuracy and precision, though they are related.

This is relevant, because it's one of the "ethan points".

dwoz