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Topic: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp? (Read 16669 times) previous topic - next topic
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How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

I just read my first ever article by an objective audiophile discussing the idea that all amps, within comparable parameters, do the same thing and sound the same, regardless of price.  I had never heard that before.  I had always bought into the idea that one amp surely sounded better than another.  It's still a little hard to get my head around the idea that a $4,500 Mcintosh amp has the same effect on an audio signal as a $400 Onkyo ... but that is the argument that these so-called objective articles and blind tests make. 

It's even harder when product review after product review compares the amp being discussed to other amps and the writer argues this one is "crisper" and that one is "warmer" and so on.

So if that's true ... that all amps have the same effect on an audio stream ... how do we choose an amp?  I know a guy would want to spend a few bucks to make sure the components are of rugged enough quality so the thing actually lasts a few years.  That costs money.  A guy would also want to make sure it has the features he wants.  More features would cost more money.  Same with wattage. 

Beyond that, how does someone who buys into this "all amps do the same thing" belief choose an amp?  And what's the right amount to spend before steep diminishing returns kick in?  $200?  $500?  $1500?  I intended to spend up to $2,000 on an amp while I was still caught up in the marketing, but now I really have no idea at what point money is wasted on buying a "better" amp.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #1
Double blind tests.

It's still a little hard to get my head around the idea that a $4,500 Mcintosh amp has the same effect on an audio signal as a $400 Onkyo ... but that is the argument that these so-called objective articles and blind tests make. 

Yeah, it can be shocking at first to have notions shook by scientific tests. It was the same for me when the first time I did something audio related, like comparing different compression rates of codecs to suit my limits of hearing.

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It's even harder when product review after product review compares the amp being discussed to other amps and the writer argues this one is "crisper" and that one is "warmer" and so on.

Emotional things like "warmer" should be taken out of the equation for me at all. Since those seem like complete buzzwords to me. Just what does "warmer" mean?

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #2
There can be differences in sound between amps, or more precisely in their interactions with the speakers. For instance the difference between an amp with a normal damping factor, and one with really low damping factor. The amp with the low damping factor will have less of a braking effect on speaker cone movement, which can lead to "woolly" or uncontrolled bass response, especially in speakers that use large woofers.

But this hasn't really been an issue for a long time, at least for solid state amps, and there is no definite correlation with price.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #3
I just read my first ever article by an objective audiophile discussing the idea that all amps, within comparable parameters, do the same thing and sound the same, regardless of price.  I had never heard that before.  I had always bought into the idea that one amp surely sounded better than another.  It's still a little hard to get my head around the idea that a $4,500 Mcintosh amp has the same effect on an audio signal as a $400 Onkyo ... but that is the argument that these so-called objective articles and blind tests make. 

It's even harder when product review after product review compares the amp being discussed to other amps and the writer argues this one is "crisper" and that one is "warmer" and so on.

So if that's true ... that all amps have the same effect on an audio stream ... how do we choose an amp?  I know a guy would want to spend a few bucks to make sure the components are of rugged enough quality so the thing actually lasts a few years.  That costs money.  A guy would also want to make sure it has the features he wants.  More features would cost more money.  Same with wattage. 

Beyond that, how does someone who buys into this "all amps do the same thing" belief choose an amp?  And what's the right amount to spend before steep diminishing returns kick in?  $200?  $500?  $1500?  I intended to spend up to $2,000 on an amp while I was still caught up in the marketing, but now I really have no idea at what point money is wasted on buying a "better" amp.
The last paragraph above is phrased rather as though you dispute that "all amps sound the same". It's not really a belief that is "bought into", more a case of plain science. At all realistic power levels, solid state modern amps of competent design have distortion levels that are beyond the ability of the human ear to distinguish. Additionally, any distortion they do produce will be masked by the (proportionally) far greater distortion introduced by even the best of speaker systems. Amplification of audio today is a solved problem. Clearly, this is a blanket statement and it's quite possible to find amps that are not "of competent design" and behave badly with certain loads or are non-linear in some way.

The best advice is simply to stick to a reputable manufacturer, determine what wattage is required then add the desired features. You will then arrive at a suitable amplifier. It's quite possible that you could have bought the same performance in a cheaper, not well-known, brand but at least you should get security of warranty etc. and you won't have been ripped off. Frankly I'd steer clear of unsubstantiated reviews containing buzzwords, in the hi-fi press.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #4
By choosing an inexpensive digital ("CLASS D") amplifier providing sufficient power output for the speaker system. Benefit: lower noise floor (probably the only characteristic of a modern amplifier that can be clearly audible) and significantly reduced power consumption:


(Power consumption as a function of output power)

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #5
I just read my first ever article by an objective audiophile discussing the idea that all amps, within comparable parameters, do the same thing and sound the same, regardless of price.  I had never heard that before.

This is actually a pretty old idea, easily going back to 1977 or earlier:

First ABX power amp test - 1977

"May 7, 1977 SMWTMS did the first ever audio double blind subjective listening tests. An argument over the audibility of differences between amplifiers at a club meeting in November 1976 resulted in an agreement that a double blind test could settle the question. Just six months later, Arny Krueger gave a lecture on his design of a double blind comparator and the first three double blind tests were done. The results include the first three listed in the Power Amplifier Comparison Table in the data. Thus we credit Arny Krueger and his opponent in the argument, Bern Muller, as the inventors of the ABX Comparator. ."

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I had always bought into the idea that one amp surely sounded better than another.

Is that a rational thought? If all amps sound better than each other, how can any of them sound better?

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It's still a little hard to get my head around the idea that a $4,500 Mcintosh amp has the same effect on an audio signal as a $400 Onkyo ... but that is the argument that these so-called objective articles and blind tests make. 

The actual argument (and relevant facts) can go like this:

The human ear, like every other part of the human body has performance limits. Some differences are just to small for people's ears to hear. Eventually, after more than a half century of development, the amps became so well perfected that their differences became to small to hear.

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It's even harder when product review after product review compares the amp being discussed to other amps and the writer argues this one is "crisper" and that one is "warmer" and so on.

Are you shocked that salesmen at least occasionally umm... embroider the truth? ;-)

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So if that's true ... that all amps have the same effect on an audio stream

That's not true. Some amplifiers are audibly inaccurat., Sometimes they are made that way completely intentionally.  Others are not. Therefore not all amps sound the same.

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... how do we choose an amp?

An ideal amplifier would have no audible imperfections, no?  We can compare amplifiers to other things that have no audible imperfections. If the amp sounds the same as something that is audibly perfect, then the amp might be a good choice if well made, reliable, flexible, and reasonably priced, no?

Fortunately as time has marched on, more and more audio amps have been perfected to the point where they meet this standard.

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I know a guy would want to spend a few bucks to make sure the components are of rugged enough quality so the thing actually lasts a few years.  That costs money.

Not true. I have some inexpensive audio gear that is like 50 years old and still meets its origiinal specifications, and more importantly has no audible flaws.

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A guy would also want to make sure it has the features he wants.  More features would cost more money.  Same with wattage. 

High performing, well built, well featured gear is not hyper-expensive.

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Beyond that, how does someone who buys into this "all amps do the same thing" belief choose an amp?  And what's the right amount to spend before steep diminishing returns kick in?  $200?  $500?  $1500?

Depends on things like features and power capabilities.  There are sub-$100 amps that are sonically ideal, well made, and last for a long time.

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I intended to spend up to $2,000 on an amp while I was still caught up in the marketing, but now I really have no idea at what point money is wasted on buying a "better" amp.

Probably, a point you have already passed.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #6
the idea that all amps, within comparable parameters, do the same thing and sound the same, regardless of price. 

So if that's true ... that all amps have the same effect on an audio stream ...
This is Dunning-kruger effect, as seen ad infinitum.
Loudspeaker manufacturer


Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #8
Man, I love this forum!  Completely unlike other audio forums that toss around subjective opinions of sound.  What a luxury that, in the case of audio, an objective measure of value mostly equates with significant cost savings.

Arnold B. Krueger wrote, "There are sub-$100 amps that are sonically ideal, well made, and last for a long time."

Can anyone mention a few company names or model lines to get me rolling?  I'm just coming out of the realm of magazine reviews and ads and don't know anything beyond popular and (apparently) overpriced amps.  It sounds from this thread as though just about *any* appropriately powered inexpensive amp will do the job ... but I suspect that there is still the issue of long-term reliability in the quality of the internal components.

I'm not trying to shirk my own research here.  I just haven't learned yet where to look for an amp that isn't steeped in illusions and subjective reputation.  All I know is glossy ads in magazines and Magnolia Best Buy.  I see plenty of good reviews on Amazon when I search for stereo amps and sort by low-price, but I can't tell a machine that is expected to last twenty years from one that might last four or five.  Longevity is almost never discussed in user reviews.

Or are most under-$200 amplifiers' build quality, like the sound quality, pretty much the same?

I run a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40's and will shortly add a subwoofer.  (I haven't learned yet if adding a sub affects the type of amp I need.)  I'm running toslink out of my Mac.  No other components, just the Mac.  I'd also like basic bass/treble knob tone control and a remote control for on/off and volume.

Because someone might ask ... I need a new amp because I'm currently running through a 5.1 home theater receiver that I want to relocate to a different part of the house where I watch movies.  The Mac/music corner will be in a different part of the house than the TV - so I want to get another amp just for the music.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #9
Not everything's got to be done as cheaply as possible: I got no problems with someone paying extra for overkill (if properly engineered!) as long as they don't kid themselves that's it's about anything besides features, form-factors and of course, pure luxury. McIntosh? Mark Levinson? Sure, why not. These days, I'd want to see UL and FCC Class B ratings if for no other reason than to know that my boutique manufacturer wasn't cutting corners.

Even tube amps can be "pretty good", though relatively high-maintenance and best paired with speakers which present it with an easy-to-drive load (e.g., mostly resistive, above 4 ohms). The catch is that if you do it correctly, tubes and solid state really do sound the same  :))

Me, I've been there, done that. So these days aside from wanting to tinker once in awhile, I'm pretty much okay with choosing my gear from sources like B&H Photo. Or Best Buy. My next amp will probably be a 4-channel 1U Class D thing, probably by Crown or Behringer. Crown's a lot pricier but doesn't need a cooling fan. QSC's got some pretty amazing 2U amps but those can be a bit pricey and offer a lot of capabilities I may never use.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #10
I somehow have the impression that most "audiophiles" are trapped in a steam punk world of the massive 1970s Hi-Fi equipment they fetishize, pretending the relation of price, size and weight to sound quality and durability remained the same for 40 years, as if the digital revolution somehow didn't happen, or just affected the media, not the rest of the playback chain.

Well, there's nothing wrong about audiophile steam punk, I can absolutely understand its aesthetic appeal. The problem is when people don't admit to their fetish as such but make an occult science out of it. Instead of listening to music as the end of their equipment, the equipment is the end in itself and the music is merely an autosuggestive "placebo space" for imagining all those occult properties and nuances cunjured up by their magic equipment.

But it's up to anyone whether to dabble in this occult science of subjectivism or to enlight themselves about the current, objective state of science and technology and thereby become immune against all the phony marketing charms  ;)

Arnold B. Krueger wrote, "There are sub-$100 amps that are sonically ideal, well made, and last for a long time."

Can anyone mention a few company names or model lines to get me rolling?

This is one example of a 50 W stereo Class D amplifier the size of a cigarette box which is well build, totally transparent sounding and well under $100.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #11
This is one example of a 50 W stereo Class D amplifier the size of a cigarette box which is well build, totally transparent
No.

Most inexpensive Class D have poor output filtering. If going Class D, stick with any of the Hypex or newer ICE chip designs.

I run a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40's and will shortly add a subwoofer.  (I haven't learned yet if adding a sub affects the type of amp I need.)  I'm running toslink out of my Mac.  No other components, just the Mac.  I'd also like basic bass/treble knob tone control and a remote control for on/off and volume.
Then you need only an amp that can drive a 4 ohm load, since your speakers have a 3.5 minima at 111hz. There are countless of those without output filter issues. Something like this Yamaha for $300 new should do just fine.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #12
Man, I love this forum!  Completely unlike other audio forums that toss around subjective opinions of sound.  What a luxury that, in the case of audio, an objective measure of value mostly equates with significant cost savings.

Arnold B. Krueger wrote, "There are sub-$100 amps that are sonically ideal, well made, and last for a long time."

Can anyone mention a few company names or model lines to get me rolling? 

OK. "A few": Well-known mainstream audio brand AVR's such as Pioneer, Denon and Yamaha, and including their low and mid-end offerings. 

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Or are most under-$200 amplifiers' build quality, like the sound quality, pretty much the same?

Both the same, and also completely adequate for the best possible sound quality.  There has been quite a bit of both improvement and standardization of actual parts quality.

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I run a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40's and will shortly add a subwoofer.

Generally speaking adding a good subwoofer eases the load on your existing speakers and amps.

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I'm running toslink out of my Mac.  No other components, just the Mac.  I'd also like basic bass/treble knob tone control and a remote control for on/off and volume.

Using the digital output of a Mac or PC as a sound source is a good route for high quality sound.

I'm surprised that you are unaware of the usual audiophile aversion for tone controls.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #13
This is one example of a 50 W stereo Class D amplifier the size of a cigarette box which is well build, totally transparent
No.

Ehem.. 2 ohms!? It's explicitly rated for 6-8 ohms, which should give a response -2 db at 20 kHz and about -0.5 dB at 10 kHz at worst. I don't think anyone could ever ABX that under real world conditions. That 7 ohm resonance is irrelevant because it is far beyond the audible spectrum. I agree though that for a 4 ohms load you probably want another amp.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #14
This is one example of a 50 W stereo Class D amplifier the size of a cigarette box which is well build, totally transparent
No.

Agreed.

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Most inexpensive Class D have poor output filtering. If going Class D, stick with any of the Hypex or newer ICE chip designs.

The above seems to be a good example of an amp with poor output filtering. I suspect that I could set up an ABX test with younger listeners and they would be able to reliably detect this amp sounding different from many good traditional linear amps and receivers  while driving many common speakers.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #15
I suspect that I could set up an ABX test with younger listeners and they would be able to reliably detect this amp sounding different from many good traditional linear amps and receivers  while driving many common speakers.
Are you sure about that? AFAIK, most common speakers have a steady rise in impedance in the tweeter, often approaching an order of magnitude above the nominal impedance @ 20 kHz.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #16
I suspect that I could set up an ABX test with younger listeners and they would be able to reliably detect this amp sounding different from many good traditional linear amps and receivers  while driving many common speakers.
Are you sure about that?

Enough to entice me to take more test data and do a listening test.

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AFAIK, most common speakers have a steady rise in impedance in the tweeter, often approaching an order of magnitude above the nominal impedance @ 20 kHz.

Hedge word: "Most"  noted.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #17
Ehem.. 2 ohms!?
Or 1 to 3.5 like the popular Infinity 360~362


The amp you posted is an example of a non-transparent amp and one I wouldn't recommend for any low impedance loads.
I have a dead PE DTA-100 version if you're interested.

It's explicitly "rated" for 6-8 ohms
Right, which is why it has a 3.5 minima...measured.



Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #18
I just read my first ever article by an objective audiophile discussing the idea that all amps, within comparable parameters, do the same thing and sound the same, regardless of price. 
Isn't getting the adequate or "right" amount of power the idea behind getting the correct amp with the right "comparable parameters"? Doesn't the power requirements of the speakers figure in the choice of amplifiers?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #19
Maximum power rating and sensitivity, yes.

Minimum and nominal requirements are bogus.

...already discussed in some of the links I gave as well as in numerous other threads.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #20
Isn't getting the adequate or "right" amount of power the idea behind getting the correct amp with the right "comparable parameters"? Doesn't the power requirements of the speakers figure in the choice of amplifiers?

Power is important, but it is not always the most important thing.

Ability to maintain flat frequency response at the amplifier output terminals with real world loudspeaker load impedance is more important, if for no other reason that it affects sound quality at all power levels.

The ability to deliver high power to speaker loads only matters at high SPLs, which may not even be ever be required.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #21
I don't use standalone poweramps,  but I choose *AVRs* mainly by features,e g.,  connectivity, DSP, codecs.  I have a 5.1 system so the subwoofer amplifier handles most of the bass.  Power considerations for the remaining channels --- all run as  'small' -- are not a huge deal.

No, I don't expect amps to 'sound different' otherwise, with the usual provisos.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #22
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How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

They don't. They buy active speakers instead.

After all ;  why not leave the, relatively trivial, task of designing the ideal amplifier for the specific crossover, driver and enclosure to the engineers responsible for the overall sound and quality of the bits at the sharp end?
Systems with active crossovers and individual amps fr each driver used to be regarded as high end and priced accordingly. Now you can get almost broadcast quality desktop monitors for less than $500 a pair. Even full scale systems need not cost more than $1000.

If you want to be absolutely sure you get the quality and reliability you need look at manufacturers that appeal  to the professional  market such as Genelec, Neumann, Focal, Adam or PSI. Althoigh to be honest the even less expensive alternatives are unlikely to disappoint.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #23
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How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

They don't. They buy active speakers instead.

Guilty as charged.   My main system's speakers are 3 x JBL Pro LSR 308  and 2 x 12" subwoofers - each has its own power amp.

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After all ;  why not leave the, relatively trivial, task of designing the ideal amplifier for the specific crossover, driver and enclosure to the engineers responsible for the overall sound and quality of the bits at the sharp end?

The power amps in active speakers may be tolerant of what could otherwise be serious flaws in their design. If their frequency response is suboptimal based on their own design characteristics, the DSP-based active crossovers that the better active speakers contain can easily, stably, fully, and accurately compensate.

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Systems with active crossovers and individual amps fr each driver used to be regarded as high end and priced accordingly. Now you can get almost broadcast quality desktop monitors for less than $500 a pair. Even full scale systems need not cost more than $1000.

I paid < $200 each for the LSR 308's, including shipping.  They are highly regarded by a goodly number of independent authorities, including the measurements that I did for myself.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #24
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How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

They don't. They buy active speakers instead.

Guilty as charged.   My main system's speakers are 3 x JBL Pro LSR 308  and 2 x 12" subwoofers - each has its own power amp.

2x Adam A5X and 2x Dali SWA-12 subwoofers here, and DSP-based room correction+EQ. Couldn't be happier :-)