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Poll

Do you want a dark theme for foobar2000 ?

Yes
[ 30 ] (71.4%)
No
[ 12 ] (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Topic: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN. (Read 4163 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #25
Because the majority are always right. They think with what is best for everyone.


Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #27
Foobar2000 are the only ones getting it right then?
All of the other developers are adding dark themes. That's what I mean. Are all those other devs idiots?
Both choices are valid, why do you think that one is right and other is wrong?

Because one of them gives the user options and the other denys the user that option. Do you like options?

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #28
Because the majority are always right. They think with what is best for everyone.

Majority isn't always right. As neither is the minority, by the way.
What those other devs are doing is giving their users an option they request. Developers put their beliefs apart and care for their users. As a result, their users can choose.

Being able to choose is always right.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #29
Do you like options?
I like useful options. I don't like useless option. Dark theme is useless for me.


What those other devs are doing is giving their users an option they request. Developers put their beliefs apart and care for their users. As a result, their users can choose.

Being able to choose is always right.

An old answer from Peter that may or may not be relevant today:
Quote
To start with, foobar2000 was never meant to be usable for everyone.
We simply don't care whether specific userbase finds it useful or not. We would probably care if we earned money from it, but we don't, and don't plan to as it would ruin too many good aspects of the project.
[...]
Again, if you don't like our decisions, you are free (and encouraged) to use one of other players instead.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #30
Do you like options?
I like useful options. I don't like useless option.
Windows favorite phrase. hahahah we all know where it has lead many times  ::)

It's ironic because that way of thinking is the first reason Windows has not been coded to change the theme of all software it runs, even if it's easily able to do so as has been already noted. So it's really funny how the same argument can be used by one side and the opposite side at the same time.

EDIT: Also find it funny the poll is yes or no. I mean... you may want the dark theme or don't care at all about it, but it makes no sense to be "against implementing a dark theme". Makes no sense to be against an option. If we talk about coding it, then that's another story hahaha (obviously) But you can't be against it per se (?). So I don't get most comments of this thread.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #31
https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/16b70775-d87e-42d3-aa8f-41d7d6888c66/how-to-get-colors-of-default-app-mode-quotdarkquot-in-my-win32-app

Looks like you have to program your app completely differently, and custom color the entire thing. Skinning probably also requires custom invocation of the UXTheme interface for every UI control. And every plugin will have to do the same for any UI code.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #32
EDIT: Also find it funny the poll is yes or no. I mean... you may want the dark theme or don't care at all about it, but it makes no sense to be "against implementing a dark theme". Makes no sense to be against an option. If we talk about coding it, then that's another story hahaha (obviously) But you can't be against it per se (?). So I don't get most comments of this thread.

I agree.
I worded the question like that because I've seen how many times people have asked for a dark theme and how some people on the forum(s) reacted. As I've said, some people gets defensive about a thing that wouldn't hurt them if it's implemented.
I wanted to remark that attitude with the "No" while giving an option to express you would like a dark theme with the "Yes".

I do understand why coders would prefer to dedicate their time to other areas they find more interesting or useful. It's their time and their choice. At the same time I have also seen how other requests with really minimal impact on most non-advanced users have been accepted and implemented.

So... I re-requested something that really have a big impact on non-advanced users: how the UI looks. As superfluous as it may appear to some, it has a lot of weight on how likeable AND useable a program is. Those who develop it may not care, I can't know that. I do care, so I ask for it.

It's not a trivial task, I am aware of it, but I believe/hope those who care for UI design may be interested in making foobar2000 UI "evolve".

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #33
Windows is getting new upgrade too.
Maybe it would be better to wait MS to release the latest WinUI with the complete Windows11 UI component.
And hope that ui library would do most of the thing for us.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #34
This is ridiculous. Such a customizable interface but dark mode? nah. I think its time we call em out for lacking the skills to do so. Prove me wrong.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #35
Peter and the other developers devote a considerable amount of time and effort to provide us with these FREE gifts out of kindness and generosity.  They have every right to decide what they want to spend their time on.  Requesting new features is one thing.  But insulting them just because you don't get what you want is just plain rude.  They don't owe us anything, but we owe them everything.
 Please show these developers the respect and gratitude they deserve.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #36
When all other angles are exhausted one resorts to being rude. Apologies to the devs for confusing ability with refusal.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #37
I guess I’m a “non-advanced” user. While I get over the depression of that realization, can someone tell me how this dark mode would differ from the ability to make the background black as exists currently?

I thought that was a “dark mode” but I noticed the frame area such as at the top where menus like File and View are, still remain white. Is that little area the bone of contention, or am I missing something?

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #38
@GYYYO , that's the thing, most of those requesting dark-mode think of something like this when they are talking about it:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But for some reason they also think that this design is built-in in OS and that devs can somehow flip a magic switch and enable it for the player AND for all the installed components.


Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #40
@GYYYO , that's the thing, most of those requesting dark-mode think of something like this when they are talking about it:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But for some reason they also think that this design is built-in in OS and that devs can somehow flip a magic switch and enable it for the player AND for all the installed components.
You mean you can’t? (jk)

I worked at the landline phone co in the new line ordering dept, and I wish I had a dollar for every time I’d tell a customer that a technician would be out the next day to turn their service on, and they’d say “Why do I need a technician visit? Don’t you just flip a switch?” So you have my sympathy.

I prefer the currently available black background with yellow text. With a white background, you’re trying to read text with a bright light shining in your eyes. Whereas with a dark background and light text, you’re focusing only on the text.

I worked on CRT’s for over 20 years and from that experience, I can confirm that eyestrain is definitely reduced by using a black background.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #41
The first class Foobar2000 developer has by design allowed user interfaces to be developed, so perhaps some kind and generous developer will someday develop a new dark user interface. There's always hope for future developments.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)


Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #43
Seems like this feature is not fully implemented in Windows yet, that's why Notepad++ developers had to use some tricks to add dark theme support to some standard controls (e.g. standard main menu doesn't support dark theme by default).

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #44
The Notepad++ DarkMode.h/.cpp source for this falls in "what has been seen cannot be unseen" category. I'm not sure if I dare using Notepad++ again after the horrors of that.

I do not wish to release code that may break / need patching with new Windows builds, which is what Notepad++ now does. I believe that foobar2000 users should have the freedom to continue using their foobar2000 installation indefinitely, upgrade only when they choose to. Relying on undocumented Windows interfaces would undermine this concept.

Dark mode was perfectly possible in Windows 95 era already - just set high contrast dark theme and all apps that respect system colors will behave accordingly, as long as they use standard dialogs, controls, system-defined color values, etc.

I have always pedantically followed all these details, minimized the amount of custom rendering done, used system-supplied colors by default instead of hardcoding custom stuff. Dark mode should work juts fine with foobar2000 - if it wasn't designed by clowns that is, which it sadly is.

Don't tell me to blame the app makers who didn't follow these rules, making apps that look broken with GetSysColor() telling them to use white text on dark background - that's what manifest flags or special startup API calls are for, just like with high DPI support; apps could get the legacy behavior unless they specifically report being compatible.

That said, that some of Microsoft's own apps as of Windows 11 RTM are not dark mode compliant either - namely MS Paint and Notepad.
We are the bork. Your software bugs will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

 

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #45
I'd love to see a dark mode foobar2000. But it's easy to see that it is not exactly easy...

I recently started using dark mode whenever an app offers it, just following the trend, but the quality in apps differs a lot. As noted, Notepad++ is rather ugly, but I think that goes for any app that has a traditional menu (with lots of items with little spacing) and toolbar layout (with lots of buttons). It's not a beauty in light mode either.

VMWare Workstation has a dark window, but the dialog boxes are light. That happens in other apps as well. Some apps do have a proper dark mode, but their title bar stays white if you don't set Windows to use accent color there.

Windows' own Task Manager is still light, as it Notepad as Peter mentions. Notepad should be the easiest to convert, is my naive expectation. So weird to see that simple Windows apps using the default interfaces don't convert automatically.

As for the 'high contrast dark theme', that still exists of course, but if it was pretty it would have been picked up by users a long time ago :) I assume most people don't need their dark mixed with high contrast borders around any window element. Clearly it has been developed for users with eyesight problems, not for users just preferring a darker screen when sitting in a dimly lit room.

Back to foobar2000, in my setup I keep the background dark for components, and accept the reasonable white-gray defaults for the surrounding UI.

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #46
You can add my name to the list of users who'd enjoy having more control over colours in foobar2000's interface. I did try modifying Windows colour options using a third party color picker tool a while back, but it was a poor compromise, imposing unacceptable limitations on interfaces in other software, and it was sometimes hard to understand what colour option related to what part of the interfaces of various apps. I'll grant that this is Microsoft's fault for not getting to grips with the issue better.

I'm already using Dark themes everywhere else - Firefox with a colour inverting extension, Discord, Notepad++, Reaper, Windows Explorer to name a few. Some people will argue the toss about whether dark text/light bg or light text/dark bg is correct/better for health/etc., but it seems to me to more simply be a matter of personal preference, both views being valid. It is certainly the case that a choice between light & dark modes is increasingly being offered by app and website developers, and I don't see it as frivolous.

I'm using Columns UI and have made every part of the interface dark where possible to do so, to the best of my knowledge (screenshot here if you are curious.) The parts that are still light are as you'd predict, the toolbars (menu/vol/dsp/playback mode), scrollbars, column titles, tab stacks, item properties and preferences. I've mostly eliminated the presence of grey in the buttons by making them square with with no edges, though it did feel hacky having to do that. So the interface is mostly dark, but it would be nice to tidy up the remaining light areas. I have seen other foobar2000 themes handle the issue better than I have, any tips there would be welcome.

I've seen how many times people have asked for a dark theme and how some people on the forum(s) reacted. As I've said, some people gets defensive about a thing that wouldn't hurt them if it's implemented.

Interesting you mention this because I had the same treatment not too long ago (I actually did "google it" and the material I've read on the subject is far from conclusive.)

Re: Request: Dark theme -- yeah, I know, AGAIN.

Reply #47
I'm using foobar2000 in Wine on Linux with a "dark theme" plucked from Google that changes Wine's "system colors", and it works brilliantly. Props to the fb2k dev team for using Windows system colors and controls instead of some hipster custom nonsense.