Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations (Read 24059 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Hello everyone,

I am looking to get a proper HiFi system (I currently only have a Samsung all-in-one iPod dock thingy) and wanted to get some advice and this forum seemed a bit like a save haven in the sea of crazy audiophile hokuspokus and all kinds of not very informational reviews. I tried looking for similar threads, since I think this is probably a frequently asked question, but sadly the search function doesn't seem to be the best. So if you'd be willing to give me some advice I'd be more than happy to listen.

Now on to my requirements/constraints:

I mostly want to listen to my digital audio collection, streamed from a PC or NAS. While I'd ideally have all my music in FLAC and Opus there currently are also quite a few mp3s and WAVs, but I don't think the file format should have an impact on the choice of HiFi hardware.
I don't listen to radio so I don't need a radio receiver.
It would be nice if the system is also usable for watching movies but the main focus is definitely on listening to music.
I'd be willing to spend up to 1000€ for a good system that has good build quality so it will last me the next 10-20 years.
This limit should not be seen as extremely rigid though -- if there is some significant benefit gained from spending more I might consider it.
I live in Germany so it should be something that I can get shipped here for a reasonable price.
I have a pair of Sony MDR-7506 and it would be nice to be able to use them with the system (should probably be no problem though).
I don't know what is currently possible in terms of control protocols (i.e. protocols for controlling different settings of the equipment remotely over a digital channel, e.g. ethernet) but it would be nice if the system would be somewhat future proof in that sense. Ideally I'd like to be able to use my phone, desktop and laptop as a control. For playback, pause, skip, etc. this is no problem, since it gets handled by mpd on the NAS or PC and I simply connect with a mpd client but for stuff like switching outputs and standby/wakeup it would be nice.

I hope I provided enough information and am looking forward to your suggestions.
sohalt

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #1 –
Just to get you started
Have a look at active speakers, in general more transparent than passives imho.
USB input for and/or a network protocols like UPnP/DLNA for seamless integration with PC and NAS.
Have a look at Dynaudio Xeo 4 , KEF LS50 wireless and their likes to get an idea of the concept.

Success

TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #2 –
Have you considered Sonos?
http://www.sonos.com/de-de/home

Clever and elegant system can be as simple as a single speaker + your existing internet service. Play 1, 3, and 5 incorporate TruePlay room-correction software. This requires use of iOS 9 or newer device but is very easy to use.

Not perfect: Headphone support is possible but obviously was not a priority. And true 5.1 channel sound with Playbar isn't necessarily as straightforward as they'd like for you to believe, especially with DTS soundtracks, as Playbar lacks native DTS support.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #3 –
First of all thank you for your responses!

Quote from: 4season on
Have you considered Sonos?
http://www.sonos.com/de-de/home

I have looked at Sonos quite a while back and was not really convinced. There are multiple issues I have with Sonos, among them, that, for all the convenience a Sonos system may bring, you basically buy into vendor lock in (all or nothing…). This is not only true of the speaker system, but also of the surrounding ecosystem (apps for control etc). I'd rather have a more "traditional" system, with maybe a little more "dumb", but interchangeable components. I fear that the more integrated and "intelligent" the system, the worse it will age. Proprietary protocols and software can change quite rapidly and may not be supported in 10 years anymore, so I'll be out of luck then (also, what happens, if Sonos goes bankrupt?). Currently all my computers run Linux and my Phone runs Cyanogen OS/Android, so that doesn't play to well with Sonos. Additionally the Sonos system connects to my home network and presents a potential security risk, since the devices contain powerful all purpose hardware, but you cannot verify the software running on them. The security of IoT devices and all kinds of "smart home" appliances is generally very poor, so I'd want to try to avoid anything with to many bells and whistles, that runs proprietary software. A last point that might be an argument against Sonos is, that the company is relatively young, so they might have less experience building high quality sound systems, but that might be completely unwarranted apprehension.

Regarding control protocols: Are UPnP/DLNA the defacto standard today? How well will those protocols age? And does anyone know how good the Linux support is?

So to refine my requirements maybe a little:
Good compatibility with a Linux + Android setup.
If possible: no fuss (as little integrated "smart" functionality as possible).

I will search for some active speakers. (And am happy to hear more suggestions)
And anything in terms of connecting the NAS & desktop to the speakers, i.e. what kind of audio interface/control console to search for? You said USB for input. Do you mean the speakers should directly support USB? That would mean the DAC would have to be inside the speaker, correct? This would prevent me from connecting my Headphones, wouldn't it?

Thanks again!
sohalt

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #4 –
4season, I just looked at your recommendation and my questions have somewhat answered themselves -- sorry, my bad (next time I'll look before asking).
So if I get it correctly the control console is included with the wireless speakers and the DAC is obviously part of the speakers.
I am not entirely sure how I should feel about wireless transmission for the sound, since I have the feel there could be problems with interference, latency and range. In addition the wireless transmission adds another component that could fail (I don't know how easy it is to repair a speaker with a broken wireless receiver).
Do you have positive experience with this kind of wireless system (I guess so, otherwise you wouldn't recommend it, but I still feel a little uncomfortable about it)? Are there active speakers you can recommend, that receive their audio input via wire?
And the speakers you suggested seem to be quite small and the system does not include a subwoofer. My general understanding is, that bigger speakers can produce lower frequencies and high volumes more easily or for a cheaper price. I'd be happy with getting something a little bigger if that means better quality at the same price (or similar quality at a reduced price).

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #5 –
I just noticed the last post should've been addressed to Roseval. Well, now it's to late for editing. Sorry.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #6 –
Quote from: sohalt on
Regarding control protocols: Are UPnP/DLNA the defacto standard today? How well will those protocols age? And does anyone know how good the Linux support is?

Yes, UPnP/DLNA is pretty much the standard. But who knows how long before some other, better (or "better") protocol comes along?

I would go with a completely standard "dumb" stereo (ie. no streaming or network features), and add a Chromecast audio to it.

In fact, that's exactly what I did, a straight-forward system with two active speakers, two active subwoofers, a crossover/EQ unit and a hifi preamp. I've dialed it in with room correction and a bit of extra EQ to taste, and since basic stereo sound is probably never going to change, I'll just use whichever add-on devices are needed for "modern" functionality such as streaming.


Right now, Chromecast is pretty awesome. Maybe in 5 years something else will come along. As long as there's a device with an analog line output, I'll just plug it in.

I like wireless technology for streaming and remote control, but for any kind of fixed connection (source to hifi, hifi to speakers and so on), cables are a lot more reliable. Wireless should never be relied upon for anything other than devices meant to be mobile.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #7 –
Agree that upnp is the standard, and on Linux there are of course several upnp servers available, from free, basic and lightweight through to paid and full featured. Minidlna is the lightest - others seem to like Asset upnp which is paid but the only one I found to support opus. I find bubbleupnp on android very effective as a control app. This will also work to control output to a Chromecast which is probably the cheapest way to add streaming input to your hardware as kozmonaut says. Your comments about IOT suggest you might be against it though?

Also, mpd streaming is a viable option depending on your preference, with mpd on your PC/ NAS and control via mpdroid app. I guess mpd has been around even longer than upnp and is being maintained fully.

Another option is Logitech media server which is now open source but I have no experience of it. I use both minidlna and mpd and am very satisfied.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #8 –
May KODI will be one part of your Mediacenter solution. It's support all kind of Audio/Video formats. Installs on Linux/Windows/Android/OS X/iOS systems (e.g. Amazon fireTV). Has standalone installations as Kodibuntu
OpenELEC, etc.pp.. Local or UPnP/DLNA, Internet Souces. Remote control via App on your mobile device.

Attach your KODI-Box to your Amp, or if you like 5.1 Sound to your AV-Receiver.


.halverhahn

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #9 –
Sohalt

If I read “HiFI system” I think of big floor standers.
A rack in between with separate boxes for each function connected by a bunch of wires.
In my book something of the past.
Hence I pointed to some modern developments.

UPnP/DLNA
This is an open standard with broad support.
Plug and Play was about connecting USB devices to a PC seamless.
This is done by device enumeration.
UPnP (indeed a pun on this MS program) does the same, this time over the network.
Using this protocol (today DLNA) I can use my mobile (Android) to play music stored on my PC (Win is fully DLNA certified) on my mobile. I can also use it as a remote control, choosing what to play on my PC.
My TV is DLNA as well.
A bit more detail here: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Android/Android_DLNA.htm

Personally, I don’t like streaming.
I like to have a big screen for a nice overview of my collection.
I use custom tags like Opus and Composition
Streaming doesn’t handle custom tags.
I like to tag the moment I spot an error.
Direct playback is my preferences.

Next to my PC is a Benchmark DAC 1.
It is called a DAC but it isn’t.
It is simply a pre-amp with digital inputs, volume control, line out and a headphone out.
Very convenient as I do a lot of headphone listening.

Active speakers.
A couple can be found on my website: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveSpeakers.htm
Almost all do have analog inputs.
Often there is a traditional digital input (AES/EBU and/or SPDIF)
Networked models using AES67 style protocols (low latency audio over IP) are rare.

Bass extension.
The smaller the box, the lesser the bass.
There are 2 solutions.
1 Add a sub, most of the time in a 2.1 configuration.
If you look at brand like ADAM or Genelec, they offer matching subs.
2 -DSP.
The Digital Signal Processing  compensates for the roll of.
This allows for very small boxes with a range of 20Hz...25kHz +/- 0.5dB
This is a recent development
The Kii audio THREE is an example: http://kiiaudio.com/de/
It only stretches your budget by a factor 10.
That is the way to buy speakers :)
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Roseval on
2 -DSP.
The Digital Signal Processing  compensates for the roll of.
This allows for very small boxes with a range of 20Hz...25kHz +/- 0.5dB
This is a recent development
The Kii audio THREE is an example: http://kiiaudio.com/de/
It only stretches your budget by a factor 10.
That is the way to buy speakers :)

I'd love to see some competent measurements of the frequency response, maximum output level and distortion.

Because either the full frequency range maximum output level of those speakers is maybe around 80 or 85dB, or those woofers have seriously long travel and thus high distortion.

I'm sure they sound very nice, but I'm not buying the marketing spiel.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #11 –
Have you considered building a set of Seigfried Linkwitz's speakers:
http://linkwitzlab.com/

I have a set of the older Plutos, and they're very nice!

In the future, I'd like to try Dirac Live room correction, rather than the pink noise + auto EQ that I use now via Behringer DEQ2496.

Sonos latency: Yes, I have noticed it with multiple wireless speakers playing the same source material, as you might do in a multi-room installation. The speakers soon became un-synchronized, causing a reverberation effect. But for television audio via Playbar, not a problem because Playbar uses TOSLINK for television audio.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #12 –
Wish I could here those Plutos (and newer LX Mini) in person. They're so weird looking.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Roseval on
Just to get you started
Have a look at active speakers, in general more transparent than passives imho.
USB input for and/or a network protocols like UPnP/DLNA for seamless integration with PC and NAS.
Have a look at Dynaudio Xeo 4 , KEF LS50 wireless and their likes to get an idea of the concept.

Success



Coaxial is a great idea on the paper... but not always in practical !

Source :
http://www.audioxpress.com/article/r-d-stories-genelec-8351-acoustically-coaxial-sam-system

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #14 –
Thanks for the multitude of responses.

Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Yes, UPnP/DLNA is pretty much the standard. But who knows how long before some other, better (or "better") protocol comes along?

I would go with a completely standard "dumb" stereo (ie. no streaming or network features), and add a Chromecast audio to it.

In fact, that's exactly what I did, a straight-forward system with two active speakers, two active subwoofers, a crossover/EQ unit and a hifi preamp. I've dialed it in with room correction and a bit of extra EQ to taste, and since basic stereo sound is probably never going to change, I'll just use whichever add-on devices are needed for "modern" functionality such as streaming.


Right now, Chromecast is pretty awesome. Maybe in 5 years something else will come along. As long as there's a device with an analog line output, I'll just plug it in.

I like wireless technology for streaming and remote control, but for any kind of fixed connection (source to hifi, hifi to speakers and so on), cables are a lot more reliable. Wireless should never be relied upon for anything other than devices meant to be mobile.

This really resonates with me, as it addresses exactly the kind of issues I have with these modern "all in one" packages. I think the audio part of the system is more or less timeless and should hopefully last at least a decade, whereas the interface to the rest of the world (meaning PC,phone, and whatever marvelous devices may become common in the future) is almost guaranteed to change.

Quote from: finphil on
Also, mpd streaming is a viable option depending on your preference, with mpd on your PC/ NAS and control via mpdroid app. I guess mpd has been around even longer than upnp and is being maintained fully.

Currently I have mpd running on my desktop and can connect to it with clients from my phone and laptop.
This setup works ok for the most part, but the UX for mpdroid could be a little better and it doesn't handle very large playlists too well.

Quote from: .halverhahn on
May KODI will be one part of your Mediacenter solution. It's support all kind of Audio/Video formats. Installs on Linux/Windows/Android/OS X/iOS systems (e.g. Amazon fireTV). Has standalone installations as Kodibuntu
OpenELEC, etc.pp.. Local or UPnP/DLNA, Internet Souces. Remote control via App on your mobile device.

Attach your KODI-Box to your Amp, or if you like 5.1 Sound to your AV-Receiver.
I have a little experience with running Kodi on a raspberry pi (on Archlinux and with OpenELEC), in an attempt to retrofit an older TV with streaming capabilities, but found the performance of the raspberry pi to be insufficient. It probably works fine on a more powerful box, but then I don't need a lot of the functionality, so I might just stick with mpd, but again, figuring out a solution to somehow get digital audio to an audio interface/preamp should be the least of my problems.

Quote from: Roseval on
Personally, I don’t like streaming.
I like to have a big screen for a nice overview of my collection.
I use custom tags like Opus and Composition
Streaming doesn’t handle custom tags.
I like to tag the moment I spot an error.
Direct playback is my preferences.

I'm not sure I completely get what you're saying here. When I talk about streaming I don't mean using online streaming services such as Spotify, but rather streaming from my local audio collection (stored on a NAS in the local network) to the audio system.

Quote from: Roseval on
Bass extension.
The smaller the box, the lesser the bass.
There are 2 solutions.
1 Add a sub, most of the time in a 2.1 configuration.
If you look at brand like ADAM or Genelec, they offer matching subs.
2 -DSP.
The Digital Signal Processing  compensates for the roll of.
This allows for very small boxes with a range of 20Hz...25kHz +/- 0.5dB
This is a recent development
The Kii audio THREE is an example: http://kiiaudio.com/de/
It only stretches your budget by a factor 10.
That is the way to buy speakers :)

As I said, my budget isn't extremely rigid, but yes, I didn't have a 10fold increase in mind :), so the DSP solution is probably off the table.
A 2.1 system with two active speakers and a subwoofer, connected to a pre-amp with digital inputs, line out, and headphone out sounds like it might suit my requirements.(?)

Quote from: 4season on
Have you considered building a set of Seigfried Linkwitz's speakers:
http://linkwitzlab.com/

I sadly don't have the time (and probably not the skill) to build a set of speakers myself.

Again thank you for all the helpful information. I hope my responses above help refine my requirements and narrow down the set of potential solutions.

Regards
sohalt

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #15 –
Quote from: sohalt on
Thanks for the multitude of responses.
I sadly don't have the time (and probably not the skill) to build a set of speakers myself.
Again thank you for all the helpful information. I hope my responses above help refine my requirements and narrow down the set of potential solutions.
Regards
sohalt

As a starting point you should perhaps answer :

What size and shape is your room ?
What are your speakers placement contraints (on a table... in corners... on the floor...) ?
Your listening position (standing... seated... immobile... moving...) ?
What you are waiting for in term of imaging (precise... diffuse...) ?

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #16 –
Quote from: 4season on
In the future, I'd like to try Dirac Live room correction, rather than the pink noise + auto EQ that I use now via Behringer DEQ2496.

How do you like the DEQ2496? I've been considering buying one, both for the room correction and for the Dynamic EQ function, I'm curious how well it would work for loudness correction. I'm using a Driverack PX crossover/EQ at the moment, with EQ curves based on REW measurements.

Dirac Live also seems extremely interesting, but $450 for the cheapest hardware option I could find (MiniDSP DDRC-24) is quite steep, when I can buy a DEQ2496 for less than half of that.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #17 –
Quote from: silverprout on
What size and shape is your room ?
What are your speakers placement contraints (on a table... in corners... on the floor...) ?
Your listening position (standing... seated... immobile... moving...) ?
What you are waiting for in term of imaging (precise... diffuse...) ?

My current room is relatively small (~ 16 m²) and rectangular. I'll have to move though in half a year so that might change.
Speaker placement is somewhat flexible (on a table, shelf, floor, maybe on a stand).
My listening position will be mostly seated and standing, but somewhat immobile (I have an electric standing desk and plan to listen while working).
In terms of imaging I think I'd prefer a diffuse sound, though that might be hard to achieve in such a small space.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #18 –

Quote from: sohalt on
My current room is relatively small (~ 16 m²) and rectangular. I'll have to move though in half a year so that might change.
Speaker placement is somewhat flexible (on a table, shelf, floor, maybe on a stand).
What are your expectations in term of bass rendering ?

Quote from: sohalt on
My listening position will be mostly seated and standing, but somewhat immobile (I have an electric standing desk and plan to listen while working).
Are you seated in the center of the room ?

Quote from: sohalt on
In terms of imaging I think I'd prefer a diffuse sound, though that might be hard to achieve in such a small space.
Most people prefer a wide omnidirectional sound that fill the room completely but it blur the imaging a lot.
All mainstream hifi loudspeakers have a wide dispersion pattern and will fill your needs.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #19 –
Quote from: silverprout on

Most people prefer a wide omnidirectional sound that fill the room completely but it blur the imaging a lot.

I agree that most "hifi" speakers have wide dispersion.

The disperson of the preferred speaker for a room depends on the degree of reverberation in the room. The usual rule of thumb:

(1) Wide dispersion - room with low reverberation.

(2) Narrow or so-called "Controlled Dispersion" - room with normal or greater reverberation.

Some fairly common speakers (can we say mainstream?) that have controlled dispersion:

Behringer B2030 & B2031

JBL - just about every studio monitor they sell starting with the LSR 305 and working on up.

etc.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #20 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
How do you like the DEQ2496?

I like it! But I treat it more as a set-and-forget sort of device. I think it can store multiple eq settings, but I've never felt the need to do this. I'm also a sucker for it's real-time spectrum analyzer display.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #21 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
How do you like the DEQ2496?

I like it! But I treat it more as a set-and-forget sort of device. I think it can store multiple eq settings, but I've never felt the need to do this. I'm also a sucker for it's real-time spectrum analyzer display.

I would use it precisely as a set-and-forget device. Dial in room correction either with REW or the built-in auto EQ, and add a dynamic EQ preset with a low shelf boost that gradually gets flattened at progressively higher average signal level.

And then I would have the VU meters or something dancing around, for fun :-)

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: silverprout on

Most people prefer a wide omnidirectional sound that fill the room completely but it blur the imaging a lot.

I agree that most "hifi" speakers have wide dispersion.

The disperson of the preferred speaker for a room depends on the degree of reverberation in the room. The usual rule of thumb:

(1) Wide dispersion - room with low reverberation.

(2) Narrow or so-called "Controlled Dispersion" - room with normal or greater reverberation.

Some fairly common speakers (can we say mainstream?) that have controlled dispersion:

Behringer B2030 & B2031

JBL - just about every studio monitor they sell starting with the LSR 305 and working on up.

etc.


I was expecting to recommand passive monitors because of hissing and humming issues (i've sold my active moniors because of this problem) that was totally utterly annoying for me.
Entry level monitors woofers are very, very often boomy and one note sounding.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #23 –
Hissing from active speakers is often* a question of too much gain, usually due to the speakers being fed a consumer line level signal (-10dBV) rather than the pro line level signal they are built for (+4dBu), which is ~12dB stronger. So the gain on the speaker is turned up to compensate. This is particularly noticeable in a nearfield listening position, which is how I use my speakers most of the time.

In my setup, I've compensated for this by using a crossover/EQ DSP box that can take in consumer line level and output pro line level. It allows me to turn down the gain on my speakers to the point where I cannot hear any hiss at all unless I get right up to ~10cm from the tweeter. An additional benefit of this is that I turn up the volume on my preamp significantly more for the same listening level compared to before, so the DSP gets fed a stronger signal, which makes better use of its dynamic range. I feel like I can hear a difference compared to before, when the signal was noodling around in only a few bits at low volumes, but I haven't bothered to test it. Either way, it lights up the VU meters much more at normal volume levels, which is nice to look at :-)

(Yet another benefit is that even at full volume on the preamp, the resulting volume level is still pretty loud, but not ridiculously so. It's great when you have friends over for some drinkingmusic listening. It's impossible to turn up to a level that would severely annoy my neighbors and/or blow a speaker)

I don't know whether this is 100% approved bona-fide proper gain structure, but it seems a lot more correct to me. As much signal level as possible through the chain, final output volume adjusted by the gain at the end.

* Sometimes, the hiss is just there and completely unrelated to gain settings or anything else. The only solution to this problem is to buy monitors that do not suffer from it.

Re: Complete HiFi Setup (from scratch) - Buying Reccomendations

Reply #24 –
Quote from: silverprout on

Entry level monitors woofers are very, very often boomy and one note sounding.



I don't think that any of the products (B2031, B2032, LSR 305, LSR 308) I mentioned are anything like entry level monitors. 

Of course the phrase "Entry Level" lacks a generally agreed upon meaning, as it could mean smaller Sonus Fabers. I dunno.

FWIW, my LSR308s are turned on 24/7 as they are very quiet and use very little power when not playing music.