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Topic: ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2? (Read 5665 times) previous topic - next topic
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ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

One of the tests that I run on codecs involves coding a wav sample, decoding the result back to wav and then recoding.  So basically the original wav file will have been processed twice through the same codec.  Typically, I use cdex to decompress the initial ogg file back to a wav file, so I can encode it a second time.
When testing ogg rc2 in this manner, I've used cdex to decompress the initial ogg file back into a wav file, and it works quite handily.  I attempted to test the current rc3 pre-4 in this manner, using the -b 128 setting.  However, cdex was unable to handle these files; cdex 1.30 simply did nothing and cdex 1.40b9 shut down after an "illegal operation" error message.  I assume that the decompressing of an encoded file is basically a function of the decoder, and I was under the impression that the basic ogg framework, and thus the decoder, was standardized and thus did not differ between rc2 and rc3.  Winamp, using the nullsoft vorbis plugin that I installed first while using ogg rc2, had no problem playing rc3 encoded files.  So anyway, any thoughts on why cdex can't decompress an rc3 ogg file to a wav file, when it had no problem doing so to an rc2 ogg file?
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #1
Yeah, I also noticed that older winamp plugin's don't work and Sonic Foundry can't handle rc3 ogg files either.

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #2
Are using the RC3 DLL with CDex? I only ask because I just decoded a RC3 encoded file thru CDex using the RC3 DLL with no problems.

john33

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #3
Hmm, as far as _decoding_ is concerned, RC1 or RC2 should work just as fine.

I can play new oggs without problems even with the old decoder, so I don't really understand why it wont work for you.

--
GCP

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #4
As you say, Garf, the earlier decoders should work just fine.  The basic framework of ogg, at least where the decoder is concerned, is supposed to have been standardized quite awhile back.  CDex had no problem decoding samples encoded with your "Garf Tuned 2" or straight RC2, just with the RC3 pre 4 that I downloaded yesterday.  This is perhaps an beginner's question, but how would I install the new RC3 decoder dll in CDex?

As an aside, I'll probably wait until the "final" RC3 is out before doing any real archiving; however, I should note that I was able to distinguish RC3 pre 4 samples from wav much more easily than I was able to differentiate between RC2 and wav.  Perhaps this is also due to the new decoder issue; the sound has more exaggerated treble using the "old" nullsoft vorbis plugin.
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #5
Just copy the DLL into the main CDex directory. (I'm sure that's what you did anyway.)

john33

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #6
Replaced the vorbis.dll in the main cdex directory with the vorbis.dll included in yesterday's RC3 vorbisdaily.zip packet.  900-some kb replaced with 108.  The RC3 stuff is definitely smaller; the  However, CDex still shuts down with an illegal operation when I attempt to decode RC3 ogg files to wav.  Again, RC2 stuff and Garf Tuned 2 stuff is decoded easily.
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #7
The DLL's original size isn't 108kb. It has been compressed with UPX.

If you decompress it, you'll see the true size is 540Kb (Still smaller than RC2, anyway...)

Regards;

Roberto

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #8
Roberto - is it necessary to decompress the new dll in order to use it in CDex or wherever else?  If so, how would I do that?

And the question, "why a new decoder", still remains open.
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #9
The DLL works fine for me without decompressing but, if you want to try it in it's
"normal" mode:

-go to http://upx.sourceforge.net/ and get latest version. (1.20, I believe)

Unzip upxXXXw.zip (XXX=version number) to your vorbis.dll dir.

At the command prompt, in your vorbis.dll folder, run upx -d vorbis.dll

Done.

Regards;

Roberto.

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #10
I don't really understand what's going on here. It all works as it should for me. Even the RC2 filter in Cool Edit decodes the RC3 files correctly.:confused:

john33

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #11
John33, I have no idea why the CDex decoder works for you but not for me.  I assume that CDex 1.40b9 has the RC2 decoder, as it officially has the RC2 encoder.  As I said earlier, the RC3-encoded files play just fine in my jukebox programs, although I think they sound more different from the original wav files than RC2-encoded versions do.  Both RC2 and RC3 encoded at the -b128 setting for that test.

My main question is, has the framework changed, or is the new decoder simply a more streamlined version of the original decoder but uses exactly the same ogg framework?
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #12
Well, timcupery is right. CDex 1.40b9 comes with in_vorbis v1.13a. If you use this version in CDex (even in Winamp) with an OGG file made with RC3pre5, the application crashes when it tries to decode it. You have to use the latest in_vorbis_dll v1.16e which doesn't crash

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #13
Thanks, wizard13.  I copied the in_vorbis.dll (version 1.17, actually) from my winamp plugins folder and pasted it into my CDex plugins, replacing the in_vorbis.dll (version 1.13) that originally came with CDex.  CDex now decompresses RC3 to wav with no problems.

Still wondering why a new decoder is needed if the ogg framework has been finalized for awhile.
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #14
Well, I have a number of files encoded with Pre 5 which I have decoded to wavs using the vorbis.dll which came with 140b8 and dated Aug 2 01, and also with the vorbis.dll which came with 140b9 and dayed Oct 16 01. I have also just played the same tracks back thru 140b9 using the plugin dated Jul 27 01 and all played perfectly with no crashes.

No, the framework hasn't changed as far as I know. That was cast in concrete with RC1, I believe. So, I have no idea what's occuring here. BUT, don't expect too much from me, I am NOT a developer, I am only pushing out updates as they occur thru the CVS.

john33

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #15
john33, all these dates you are saying are for the vorbis.dll, not the in_vorbis.dll. Vorbis.dll can't be used for decoding

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #16
You're right, of course!! What was I thinking!

john33

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #17
Well, regardless of what EVERYONE is saying here, older versions of in_vorbis.dll DO NOT work. Has anyone asked Monty about this?

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #18
At a guess, whoever made the plugin also made it buggy, and it breaks on (correct) Vorbis files. Even if previous Vorbis versions didn't trigger the bug, newer ones may.

I would say the plugin author is the person to complain to.

--
GCP

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #19
Quote
I would say the plugin author is the person to complain to.
I assume that the in_vorbis.dll plugin in CDEX is one of PP's older plugins. Now, if I can just get a response from Sonic Foundry...

ogg rc3 decoder differs from rc2?

Reply #20
A patch for Sonic Foundry stuff is available.  Basically it's the same RC2 code that ships with Vegas, but it updates all their other Ogg-enabled products as well.  I posted to the list and also on Ogg Traffic.  You can find it here my email here:
http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis/0200.html
And the actual update here:
http://i.cantcode.com/~jack/SirenOggRC2.zip

Note: i.cantcode.com recently had it's IP changed.  DNS might still be propagating, but it should work.

 
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