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Topic: Do LPs really sound better than CDs ? (Read 28897 times) previous topic - next topic
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Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Someone I know told me this. He owns several thousand (!) Jazz LP's and CD's and he also plays a musical instrument. I mean I respect his points of view.
Is this really possible ? Of course you have quite some background noise in an LP and there are several other disadvantages in an LP, but the sound quality is the most important aspect for me.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #1 –
I would disagree.  Ask him to prove they sound better, with rumble, hiss, unclear high notes, attenuated low notes and a medium which wears with use.  However, Luddites love LP's. 
Nov schmoz kapop.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #2 –
You're all wrong.  Eight Tracks sound the best... 
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #3 –
Quote
You're all wrong.  Eight Tracks sound the best... 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=235667"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Heh.. Absolutely right
ZIts gonna be incredibly hard for you to Bindtest this stuff..
Which is what we here love...... Welcome ........
Ummm, just let it go  I like the "homely" crackles of vintyl,
for example, .... x

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #4 –
Disclaimer: everything below is just an idea and inspiration to investigate it(and prove it right or wrong) - it should not be considered more than "a possibility".

actually, someone brought in an interesting thought in another thread, concerning this topic. The possibility that Vinyl may sound "better" to some people, because they can NOT reproduce extreme-frequencies. The person in this other thread brought up the idea, that frequencies which are apparent in normal nature may be perceived "more comfortable" by the human ear. He wrote that for example a 40hz deep bassdrum-kick isn't a freq you would here in normal natural environment. So, the idea is there that "whats missing" in vinyl may not be a disadvantage but instead an advantage.

Also, it should be taken into account that some people may actually like the distortions which vinyls produce. Just like some people actually like certain encoder-artifacts(remember "vorbis sounding better than the original" (the hf-boost problem)? ).

So, whats "sounding better" and whats "at higher quality" not necessarily is the same.

- Lyx
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #5 –
Part of that "LPs sound better" thinking comes from how CDs have been mastered for a longer time now. If you play any of those overcompressed CDs on a really good hifi system, they sound like crap. Sure, the volume race had begun long before, but in the golden age of LPs, there weren't even those tools to compress the music like it's been done from the early 90's with CDs. Also, LPs can't be pushed so hard, since they're physically "saturated" at a certain level, and even if that level is reached, the distortion is rather warm compared to the digital clipping. So i don't know... maybe a rather old, properly mastered CD with good dynamics is a match for an LP, if you compare them on a good stereo. My brother knows one colleague from work who has a hifi system that's almost worth a new car. Any recent CDs are totally unlistenable there. The guy owns only a handful of CDs and has used the 2,000 Euro CD player maybe 5 times total. He swears by his LPs, which sound too good to be believed on his system, according to my brother.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #6 –
i would have to say old LPs, the ones recorded, mixed, and mastered in the analog domain, sound much better than mainstream CDs today. this is a shame, really, because today, if people really put everything into sound quality instead of only thinking about making a project as loud as possible we can achieve much better results than those old LPs. it is, however, a misconception that today's vinyl sounds better than CD. in dance and techno music for instance a lot of new tracks get released on vinyl first before they are released on CD. from time to time i come across people who say their recent vinyl sounds better than CD because vinyl is analog and infinite while CDs are digital and restricted. this logic is wrong, because most vinyl releases today are created from the same CD master as the CD version. therefore, since the master is digital, you're only putting a certain amount of data on the record, and in this case the CD will obviously give you a better reproduction.
Be healthy, be kind, grow rich and prosper

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #7 –
I always love this question cos there's just no 'right' answer

LP's are unquestionably inferior to CD's in terms of faithfully reproducing recorded sound - there is no credible argument about this (and LP's deteriorate FAR quicker than CD's)  - but - this fact is arguably unrelated to the issue of which format sounds best

LP's introduce particular types of distortion that many people (myself included) quite like

plus - if you then play LP's through a valve system to further boost the level of saturated sound you can get a very smooth warm output that is very different from the cleaner (but 'colder') CD output

it's 'horses for courses' - you pay's your money and you make your choices

personally I'd rather take the digital file that I can play/copy/burn as often as I want without ever degrading the file and then treat the sound vis software to reproduce the sound I would get if I had it on an LP and was using a valve driven monster 'radiogram'

Cheers, 

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #8 –
As a person who is in the process of copying several hundred Lp's to my computer, I would have to say that  the "vinyl is superior" cannard made by "audiophiles" is poppycock. Frankly, when I am done and have redundant backups made of all the files, the LP's are heading for the auction block at ebay.

I am doing this because I have a vast collection of 40's and 50's roots rock/R&B music that has not been properly released on CD as of yet. Plus, I have a lot of regional music from the Carolinas (Beach Music) that also has not been released as yet on CD. The mono  LP's copy over very well because the pops and clicks on them are out of phase from the signal from the groove. When I reduce these wav files to mono, it cleans up much of the noise, and I only need to use mild cleanup algos for the noise that remains.

The entire process is very labor intensive and time consuming-I may have it all finished by Christmas of this year    To repeat myself-when I am done, the LP's and 45s are going away, and I am never looking back .
you will make mp3's for compatibility reasons.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #9 –
Quote
The mono  LP's copy over very well because the pops and clicks on them are out of phase from the signal from the groove. When I reduce these wav files to mono, it cleans up much of the noise, and I only need to use mild cleanup algos for the noise that remains.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=235705"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I find that declicking the stereo version and then converting to mono works quite well. At least for 78s.

It sounds counter intuitive, but automatic declickers aren't perfect, and allowing some of the imperfections in the restoration (as well as the disc itself) to cancel when summed to mono can help somewhat.

It's just another trick to try. btw, the stereo declicked version won't sound that good - but obviously you have to compare stereo>mono>declick with stereo>declick>mono.


LP, as a format, is obviously inferior to CD because you can copy an LP onto CD without hearing a change, whereas when you copy a CD onto LP (well, if we could) I'm sure you'd hear a difference! However, individual releases of LPs and CDs can sound good or bad, and there are plenty where the LP outshines the CD.

There is an LP vs CD thread in the FAQ. Click "FAQ" top right.

Cheers,
David.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #10 –
Quote
Someone I know told me this. He owns several thousand (!) Jazz LP's and CD's and he also plays a musical instrument. I mean I respect his points of view.
Is this really possible ? Of course you have quite some background noise in an LP and there are several other disadvantages in an LP, but the sound quality is the most important aspect for me.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=235658"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



From a purely subjective standpoint, of course it can be true. Some people prefer the sound of LPs to CDs.
When they try to justify that preference in technical terms ot 'prove' that LP is intrinsically superior to CD, though, they almost invariably start talking nonsense.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #11 –
Luddites didn't love LPs, when they were new !
Thanks for the answers ! Recently I had a brainstorming session about this. Here the results:
Of course, when I say "sounds good" I don't refer to how pleasant it sounds, but
refer to high fidelity. Just imagine someone playing the violin in front of you with your eyes closed. Now someone replaces the person by  loudspeakers and a turntable or CD player. The goal is of course, that the difference is as small as possible.
We live in a culture, where we automatically believe digital to be superior to analog. The digital information age. But is this really true ? The most powerful computer on this planet is, I suppose, the human brain and the human brain is an analog computer. Much more powerful, than any digital computer.
Now just suppose you record an analog signal onto a CD. This is not possible you think ? Well it is. A LASER cannot just be 0 or 1 but all the states in between. Is it possible, that this analog CD sounds better, than the digital one ?
I've just seen the rather new technology on Sharps page (http://sharp-world.com/products/1-bit/index.html#) about 1-bit amplifiers with a sampling frequency of 2.8 MHz instead of 44.1 KHz. Those 1-bit devices are said to sound much better. The sampling frequency of an analog signal would not be 2.8 MHz, but go towards infinite.
Sony's SACD technology probably sounds better, than analog technology, but is this also true for digital CDs ?

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #13 –
I've always thought my LPs sounded better than my CDs. I have some music on both formats and I always prefer the sound of the LPs. Sounds warmer and full-er.

They are played through the same sound system.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #14 –
personally, I find vinyl sounds like custard on the moon fighting with ninjas, whereas shellac 78s are more like sticking your fingers in the mains and burping in a well-tailored Italian suit.

This contrasts firmly with the stallion-riding teddybear monsoon sound that comes from a well-mastered CD.

Given the above, I think you'll agree with me as to which is best. That said, I think a few of you need to read TOS#8. This thread should probably be abandoned, as "best" is a purely personal judgement.

and omikron23, your jazz loving friend is quite correct. LPs do "sound better" to him. That is, however, very different from "more accurate".
Hip-hop looks like it's having more fun than you are - Chuck D

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #15 –
Quote
We live in a culture, where we automatically believe digital to be superior to analog. The digital information age. But is this really true ? The most powerful computer on this planet is, I suppose, the human brain and the human brain is an analog computer. Much more powerful, than any digital computer.

Th human brain is very digital in the ways it handles some signals. New research is showing that computer signal processing techniques are suprisingly close to the techniques that our brain evolved.
Quote
Now just suppose you record an analog signal onto a CD. This is not possible you think ? Well it is. A LASER cannot just be 0 or 1 but all the states in between. Is it possible, that this analog CD sounds better, than the digital one ?

Sorry, but that's just not how CDs and LPCM work. The data streamed onto and off of a CD is digital - the "strength" of the bits have no effect whatsoever on the decoding process, in a well designed player. CDs use a technique called Linear Pulse Code Modulation to store audio data. That data is purely binary in nature. Deviations in the strength of the bits read off of the CD are indications of imperfections in the recording and reading of the CD and do not make their way into the decoded analogue stream. If the deviations are large enough to cause a bit to flip, they are removed by the Reed-Solomon Error Correcting Codes embeded in the data stream. In a binary system there are no states between 0 and 1.

Recording analogue data on a digital medium is not likely to succeed at all. Even if it does the performance would be terrible.
Suggested Reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_disk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCM
Quote
I've just seen the rather new technology on Sharps page (http://sharp-world.com/products/1-bit/index.html#) about 1-bit amplifiers with a sampling frequency of 2.8 MHz instead of 44.1 KHz. Those 1-bit devices are said to sound much better. The sampling frequency of an analog signal would not be 2.8 MHz, but go towards infinite.
Sony's SACD technology probably sounds better, than analog technology, but is this also true for digital CDs ?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=235895"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You seem to have misunderstood this technology. You might have been mislead by some marketing babble.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #16 –
Reading an LP with a laser is possible. There is an optical turntable available in Japan. The only independant audiophile review I heard of it, on homecinema-fr.com (but htey are hardcore subjectivists) said that the sound is very disappointing.
Video LaserDiscs also has an analog optical soundtrack. It was Pulse Frequency Modulation. FM, if you prefer. I never heard that it had any special sound quality.

Discussing wether someone prefers LP or CD is not very useful. I suggest reproducing the test I did here : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=21&t=7953
and see if you can make a difference in a blind ABX test.
If you have some time, you can wait until I finish translating and post here a good tutorial about ABX blind tests, that I wrote in French.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #17 –
well, I've just got to add my two-pee's (cents) worth here.

I've been 'listening' to music all my life via hi-fi, thanks to my Dad to begin with, I bought my first LP - Led Zeppelin III - when I was 11, not long after it was released.

Now, ABX'ing LP and CD versions of recordings is obviously pretty pointless, for a start it's never going to be difficult to pick up on analogue 'artifacts' like surface noise.

BUT I have A/B'd recordings many times over the years. At one point I had a well fettled Systemdek IIX-900/RB300/Nagaoka MP11 'solid-body' and a Marantz CD-53 in my setup. Both of these machines were regarded as doyens of affordable 'proper' hifi.

And I have to say this, time after time after time, the Systedek simply made the Marantz sound anaemic and completely lacking any real weight or depth/timbre. I'm not saying it sounded terrible, with decent tranfers it could rattle windows-frames (Early Zappa CD releases worked well), just not comaprable to the record-player.

The most striking example I remember was P J Harvey's superbly recorded 1st album 'Dry'. The percussion simply *did not work* on the CD version, whereas on the Systemdek you could feel the tom-toms and kick-drum literally hitting you in the chest.

This ability to generate real 'movement of air' via the speakers was repeated on many other albums, confirmed by other listeners. It's still something I find quite noticable with well designed and setup 'analogue rigs' when compared to digital-sources.

Interestingly, it's well accepted that early 'multi-bit' DACs were generally more 'dymamic', ie better in this respect  than later, and now ubiquitous, 1-bit (' bitstream') ones, which are perceived as 'smoother' and less tiring to listen to. And are also much cheaper/easier to manufacture and implement, I might add.

Hopefully I havn't transgressed too many TOS's with this post,

ciao,
Rainer.

(usual edit for typos)

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #18 –
Quote
Reading an LP with a laser is possible. There is an optical turntable available in Japan. The only independant audiophile review I heard of it, on homecinema-fr.com (but htey are hardcore subjectivists) said that the sound is very disappointing.
Video LaserDiscs also has an analog optical soundtrack. It was Pulse Frequency Modulation. FM, if you prefer. I never heard that it had any special sound quality.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


[a href="http://www.elpj.com/]ELP turntable[/url]

That's a link to the turntable Pio's talking about in case anybody's interested.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #19 –
Just found this:

1 Bit Technology

DSD uses 1-bit delta-sigma modulation and a sampling frequency 64x higher than CD. Super Audio CD recordings don't have to subject the original sound waves to the decimation and interpolation stages associated with PCM. Hence DSD sound reproduction is much more natural and accurate in staging, and is often favourably compared with the best analogue recordings, but without the hiss and other artefacts that are also associated with analogue recordings.

http://www.superaudio-cd.com/technology_ex...ed_information/

Have a look at page 4 :
A notorious torture-test for recording systems,
the 10 kHz square wave (left figure : top trace)
includes component frequencies well above the
audio band. The PCM system approximates this
with a 10 kHz sine wave (left figure : bottom trace).
In comparison, the 1-bit Direct Stream Digital
captures the wave’s true shape (right figure :
bottom trace).

I think this explains a lot.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #20 –
This paper has been brought up several times before, I guess it's time to do it again.

omikron23, please read this.

Edit: this thread also mentions the paper, and I can recommend reading the entire thread as well.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #21 –
Quote
Have a look at page 4 :
A notorious torture-test for recording systems,
the 10 kHz square wave (left figure : top trace)
includes component frequencies well above the
audio band. The PCM system approximates this
with a 10 kHz sine wave (left figure : bottom trace).
In comparison, the 1-bit Direct Stream Digital
captures the wave’s true shape (right figure :
bottom trace).

I think this explains a lot.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=236065"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Indeed, you can not represent an accurate-looking 10kHz square wave with a PCM 44.1kHz sample rate. But, why would you want to? You certainly can not hear the total spectrum of that square wave -- so why record/playback the inaudible components?

I am not going to read that page at the moment -- but let's assume they(sony) make some claim of audibility The developer of the technology is hardly a reliable source of objective information -- epsecially when they fail to provide scientifically valid audibility experiments that prove positive results to suppor their claimed audibly superior technology.... ?????

-Chris

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #22 –
RockFan,

I'll leave it to the moderators to determine if you violated TOS #8 or not, but I'm afraid the comparison you describe in your post isn't really useful here.

First of all, you can't be sure the CD and LP versions of the albums you mention are produced from an identical master, without any other processing. Suppose that the LP version of "Dry" really does sound better than the CD version. You can't conclude that LP is a superior medium over CD simply because of this. You first need to eliminate the other possibilities.

If you want to do a proper test, you should digitize the LP, burn this digitized audio on a CD-R, and then compare this to the original LP.

I would suggest trying a test similar to the one Pio2001 described.

IMHO your statements don't have any real value here until you use such a test to prove that you can actually ABX the digitized version from the original.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #23 –
Quote
Quote


Have a look at page 4 :
A notorious torture-test for recording systems,
the 10 kHz square wave (left figure : top trace)
includes component frequencies well above the
audio band. The PCM system approximates this
with a 10 kHz sine wave (left figure : bottom trace).
In comparison, the 1-bit Direct Stream Digital
captures the wave’s true shape (right figure :
bottom trace).

I think this explains a lot.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=236065"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Indeed, you can not represent an accurate-looking 10kHz square wave with a PCM 44.1kHz sample rate. But, why would you want to? You certainly can not hear the total spectrum of that square wave -- so why record/playback the inaudible components?

I am not going to read that page at the moment -- but let's assume they(sony) make some claim of audibility The developer of the technology is hardly a reliable source of objective information -- epsecially when they fail to provide scientifically valid audibility experiments that prove positive results to suppor their claimed audibly superior technology.... ?????

-Chris
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=236070"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Chris,

A square wave does indeed sound different than a sine wave. I know it, because I have heard it.  And don't forget the harmonics.

Do LPs really sound better than CDs ?

Reply #24 –
Quote
If you want to do a proper test, you should digitize the LP, burn this digitized audio on a CD-R, and then compare this to the original LP.

IMHO your statements don't have any real value here until you use such a test to prove that you can actually ABX the digitized version from the original.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


An easier method(and esures very close synching of sources) is to use a PCM 44.1 line delay set to min. time, feed the analogue input and compare the A-D-Aed signal with original in a DBT.

This method was used previously in a compariison of analogue studio tape vs. PCM:

[a href="http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_digi.htm]http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_digi.htm[/url]

-Chris