"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

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"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #25 – 2003-12-08 19:53:40

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As long as you can listen to a record, it is possible to copy it.

For this reason, NoAudio was created:
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/08/encrypt.html

TotalAttenuation is crap. They take the input stream and perform a convolution function on it with using a well known avant garde piece, 4'33".

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #26 – 2003-12-08 20:21:40

For a must have cd, I do the wrong thing attempting to be right.. I buy the cd, rip it, return it saying explicitly why I am, and then if the artist isn't well known I find an address and mail them £10 to get rid of the guilt with an accompanying note saying why.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #27 – 2003-12-08 21:46:32

Howdy,

I buy all releases that have been released with copy control in Australia, from

http://www.cd-wow.com

If you email support and double check before ordering your CD they can confirm if there stock has copy control or not. Pretty much 100% of there stuff isn't copy controlled and most CD's are imported from HK or other places that have top quality stock without copy control...

Like the Red Hot Chilli Peppers Greatest Hits was released with copy control here in Australia, I ordered from cd-wow.com and it contained no copy control ...

Very good prices as well...8.99 pound for any single CD release, includes postage to ANYWHERE in the word

Cheers,
Burgerings

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #28 – 2003-12-08 23:29:17

We are witnessing the collapse of a fetid industry. Sooner than later the people are going to notice who the real culprits are and the corrupt politicians that keep protecting them.

There are generations of people who have grown up with the concept that music is about sharing, to try and keep profitting of the replication of intangible goods won't last much longer.

In any case Artists almost never get anything from sold discs from the labels. Arguably the most they can hope for is to earn some recognition, but thats what talent and internet are here for these days.

Yes, for the recording industry is an uphill battle. Everyone is a pirate, everyone is a thief, they represent the innocent, the poor and the opressed...

When people want to buy the real thing, they go out and get the real thing even if everyone else has the mp3. So yes, they should continue to exist, but they shoudln't be granted special powers anymore and accept the reality: People can and will bypass them. It is a matter of choice, not obligation.

The industry doesn't have the right to start with hunts and prosecute anyone they want, just because a bunch of corrupt politicians decided so. So yes, thats where you can really do something, the guys that sit in congress today may not be the same tomorrow. The laws were made by humans, and humans do change them overtime.

If you buy an original, the artist will get nothing, if you buy a bootleg, the artist will still get nothing. It is a lose/lose situation for that model. Sending money directly to the artist, is akin of buying discs of unsigned artists when they do a live shows, usually made with their own resources and they get the full credit. The artist will love it, but the label won't.

The labels are currently investing obsene amounts of money in lawyers and "copy protection technologies" only because the system protects them... And of course, abuse with this power, but this doesn't need to last forever. The more they tight their grips, the more people will slip from their hands. For 10 p2p systems they shut down, 100 new ones will come. For each "copy control technology" they develop, 10 workarounds will apear. The numbers are totally against their favor, their only advantage is the control they have over governments, that is, until more and more people realize the truth. Who are the ones in excess from the equation? The Artists? The Labels? or the Consumers?

Their model won't work forever. You can get a glimpse of the future if you come to "under developed" countries, there you will see the "bootlegs" rampant, yet originals still available. Depending in how you value something, you will pick one over the other, but there is no witch hunt against the people selling the bootlegs, because, frankly, its impossible. Get out of the States, and see the reality. Of course, in some of these countries you can see the ocasional with hunt depending in how much money they filled the pockets of the corrupt politician in turn, but don't expect the facade to work always, numbers determine the popularity as well... They just do it sometimes to "please their foreign contributors" a little

The world is filled with much more urgent and severe problems than to be worried of protecting the "intangible property" of a few individuals, much less "foreign" ones.

Does the message get across? No problem, someday it will.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #29 – 2003-12-09 10:05:13

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Howdy,

I buy all releases that have been released with copy control in Australia, from

http://www.cd-wow.com

If you email support and double check before ordering your CD they can confirm if there stock has copy control or not. Pretty much 100% of there stuff isn't copy controlled and most CD's are imported from HK or other places that have top quality stock without copy control...

I had to return a copy protected disc to them only this week (Let it be Naked). It doesn't play on my CD player at all.

They were very good about it, and appologised that they couldn't list which CDs were copy protected on their website.

The disc is actually unprotected in the UK, so I just went out and bought it. It cost £9.97 vs CD-wow's £8.99 though.

Cheers,
David.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #30 – 2003-12-09 11:33:14

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EMI, for instance, being the dumbass cunts that they are, have recently moved to protect their entire catalogue here in canada.

Well in france it's likewise. And you can ask for an unprotected one.
But, it will be a special made CD for you, labeled in your name and Watermarked.

Progressively I have less and less envy to buy CDs with these tactics.
My only protected CD is "Harem" by "Sarah Brightman" an EMI CD.
And I don't feel like exchanging it for a watermarked (data corrupted) one.

The thing is I shouldn't have bought it in france (though it was interesting 20 euros CD & DVD)

The problem with internet stores is to know wether they sell protected CDs or not.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #31 – 2003-12-09 11:38:53

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I also think that it's a pity most of the world does not have Fair Use laws. I am in the UK, and there is no Fair Use law here

But we do have Fair Dealing:

http://www.cityu.edu.hk/cityutoday/news/ca...20011113_04.htm

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #32 – 2003-12-09 11:53:30

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Well in france it's likewise. And you can ask for an unprotected one.
But, it will be a special made CD for you, labeled in your name and Watermarked.

Do you know if this is certainly the case?

I ask because, whilst this would seem quite sensible from the labels point of view (if the copy protection worked, which it doesn't!), it's also impractical for two reasons.

Firstly, a one-off tracable watermarked version on a CD-R may be workable, but if you really do have a player which rejects copy protected discs, there's a chance that it will reject a CD-R too! So what are they going to do - master and press a unique "real" CD?

Secondly, I'd be quite happy with the watermarked CD-R. It would be an interesting item to have. Releasing a non watermarked (but protected with easily hacked protection) version of a disc, and then giving someone a watermarked version of exactly the same material is a great way to get the watermark examined and hacked.

Cheers,
David.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #33 – 2003-12-09 13:25:27

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Well in france it's likewise. And you can ask for an unprotected one.
But, it will be a special made CD for you, labeled in your name and Watermarked.

Do you know if this is certainly the case?

As I explained it in another thread : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=10762&hl=
Which leaded to that : http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.p...2003-11-22#7268

It seems to be a specially built CD for the requester.

I translated the text :

Quote

Mid september I sent 3 CDs to the parisian address that was given to me by the operator of the 0820 300 011.

Start of october I receive the following mail "...we are processing your request. Since our CDs have all the Copy Control technology we are forced to satisfy your request to start the process for mastering a new CD."

Start of november : the CDs are returned to me with their doubles in my name! and a "crying" text justifying anti-copy systems and the following words : "Please here included are your original CD and another one with an identical content but with a digital watermark.

In fact this CD is not protected with Copy Control it has been provided with a system usually reserved to professionnals. We use this system for the albums we provide to the journalists before their commercial release.

This watermark allows us to identify you as it's sole owner in case of illegal distribution on the internet or duplication to a third party. We ask you to have a special care for this CD in preventing it's illegal use. We hope that with this CD we brought you a solution to your playing problem."

Well as the guy said on MacBidouille it begins to ressemble to Big Brother.
And it doesn't seem to be CD-Rs. They would have talked about that, I'm quite certain.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #34 – 2003-12-09 13:49:25

Seems a very rude tone to take with a customer to me. Would make me want to rip the CD straight away and put it up on the net Does the watermark come through on an MP3, I wonder.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #35 – 2003-12-09 13:52:21

Your car has a uniquely identifiable number plate - is that Big Brother?

Didn't Big Brother watch everything? The existence of a watermark (which surely cannot be unique unless it's on a CD-R, or unless they spent a lot of money to make one unique copy) doesn't let anyone watch you or monitor your use, if you're using the disc legally.

It still seems a strange thing for a record company to do, for all the reasons I've already mentioned.

Cheers,
David.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #36 – 2003-12-09 14:37:18

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It seems to be a specially built CD for the requester.

I translated the text :
Quote
Mid september I sent 3 CDs to the parisian address that was given to me by the operator of the 0820 300 011.

Start of october I receive the following mail "...we are processing your request. Since our CDs have all the Copy Control technology we are forced to satisfy your request to start the process for mastering a new CD."

Start of november : the CDs are returned to me with their doubles in my name! and a "crying" text justifying anti-copy systems and the following words : "Please here included are your original CD and another one with an identical content but with a digital watermark.

In fact this CD is not protected with Copy Control it has been provided with a system usually reserved to professionnals. We use this system for the albums we provide to the journalists before their commercial release.

This watermark allows us to identify you as it's sole owner in case of illegal distribution on the internet or duplication to a third party. We ask you to have a special care for this CD in preventing it's illegal use. We hope that with this CD we brought you a solution to your playing problem."

very interesting. i never heard about intentionally watermarking CDs. to think that a record label would go to all that trouble for a few customers

personally i think they're full of crap when they say that they need to press and master a new copy. i think they keep quite a few copies of unprotected versions "just in case" someone complains. with EMI here in canada i read that they didn't even ask for the original disc back. you just fax or email them a receipt and they send you a free replacement. i have no idea whether this replacement have any kind watermarking technology. from what i read it doesn't. it's just a normal unprotected version. money well wasted if you ask me.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #37 – 2003-12-14 18:54:12

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Howdy,

I buy all releases that have been released with copy control in Australia, from

http://www.cd-wow.com

Very good prices as well...8.99 pound for any single CD release, includes postage to ANYWHERE in the word

so, i suggest you to buy at the same site, but at the Hong Kong version:

http://www.cd-wow.com.hk

if you pay 8.99 £ in UK cdwow site, here you'll pay 95 HKD, as it more or less 10 Euros (9.50 $ - 7 £): much cheaper!

HTH

bye

Ciroopi

ps. You usually bought for 95 HKD; now -goddamnit!- I see the prices are around 105 HKD [for standard cds, excluding special bonus cds, dvd and bargain offers which are different, but of course at the lowest prices I ever seen for Major's products]: is it always cheaper than pay in pounds, but i hope that, after Xmas, the prices will go down as before....

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #38 – 2003-12-14 20:57:40

@ciropizza Thanks heaps for that..I didn't know there was a .hk site. Even at $105.99HKD it is still cheaper that there normal .com site...$105.99HKD = 7.85GBP...
I'll be doing more of my ordering from there from now on
Cheers,
Burgerings

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #39 – 2003-12-14 22:19:57

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The point is I buy online....

Kings of Leon, BRMC, and others (BMG) all copy protected!!!!

King Of Leon "Young & Young Manhood" isn't a copy protected CD in my country (argentina). I can't find copy protected CDs here, ; but the piracy is big, around 80% of CD sales coming from pirated copies. A pirate copy costs only U$ 1 and an original CD around U$ 13. And the quality of pirated copies are good enough except by the art work. The people only buy pirated copies here, the sellers of pirated cds are everywhere and the autorities do nothing for stop this illegal market.

I am very aware of pirate copies. There are many MP3 sourced CDs among them. And if MP3s were encoded foxy there are no way to distinguish original from MP3

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #40 – 2003-12-14 22:59:15

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I am very aware of pirate copies. There are many MP3 sourced CDs among them. And if MP3s were encoded foxy there are no way to distinguish original from MP3

Substract the channels (as Karaoke DSPs do) and listen. You'll hear obvious artifacts that haven't been there before, no matter how foxy encoding was.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #41 – 2003-12-14 23:08:42

The harder copy protection - the harder is pirate's job. The harder is pirate's job - more organized and foxy they become. More organized and foxy they become - more difficult for RIAA to fight them. More difficult for RIAA to fight them - harder copy protection and so on.
For years RIAA cultivated pirates and the strongest survived.
I am not supporter of piracy but I also don't want to pay so much for a CD, knowing that most part will not go to Artist. RIAA and others waste my moneyto develope their dumb copy protections. I think they chose wrong politics. And IMHO RIAA has no future.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #42 – 2003-12-15 00:18:30

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I am very aware of pirate copies. There are many MP3 sourced CDs among them. And if MP3s were encoded foxy there are no way to distinguish original from MP3

Substract the channels (as Karaoke DSPs do) and listen. You'll hear obvious artifacts that haven't been there before, no matter how foxy encoding was.

Here the pirates copies aren't from mp3 sources, I sustracted the channels like Tigre said on many pirates CDs buyed here and I compard with originals ones and I think that are copied from wavs, and the lenght, volume and wave shape are the same. Here average people earns around U$ 150 a month, a CD cost around U$ 10 and a pirate copie only $1, it's difficult to me and the John Average stay away from pirates copies here. Me only buy originals CD from my favorites artists like Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons, Kraftwerk, Jean Michel Jarre, etc meanwhile I buy pirated copies from the rest of the artist that I don't like very much. The p2p is not a problem here becouse only a few people can pay for a DSL connection (around U$ 40 a month).

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #43 – 2003-12-15 00:20:15

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I am not supporter of piracy but I also don't want to pay so much for a CD, knowing that most part will not go to Artist.

Ever heard of Musiclink? [Formerly Fairtunes]

But then you'll also need to donate to the people who were involved in the production/mastering/design/marketing et cetera et cetera

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #44 – 2003-12-15 04:34:36

I've been holding this view for awhile now, and it might just be the only way to go about things... the best way to fight copy-protection is this:

Buy the CD, defeat the protection and make a good copy or two (one for personal use and one for backup), and then return the CD for a refund.

It's very convincing, because these CD's don't play properly on many CD-players.

And it's more obvious to the industry than just not buying the album, because the companies notice that there is an unusually large quantity of defective product returns.

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #45 – 2003-12-15 06:19:04

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Well in france it's likewise. And you can ask for an unprotected one.
But, it will be a special made CD for you, labeled in your name and Watermarked.

This is something I'd really not worry about. Lets say that:

1. they indeed did manage to make every CD unique (which I severely doubt with pressed CD's, with CD-R's I'd not buy it since like 50% of my CD-R's turns out unusable after 5 years).
2. they manage to do it in such a way that even from the coded MP3 (or whatever format) they can trace it back to you.
3. they have your name and adress available for prosecution if they desire to do so.

Then when rips of your CD's turn up in the P2P networks it does NOT prove you have pirated, unless they catch you in the act of sharing it.

You could have lost your CD together with your portable player. You could have ripped it to HD for personal use within the scope of fair use laws, while running a windows machine with no firewall and file sharing enabled on your internet link, so every script kiddy can acces your files if they wanted to (which would be theft of your property). I can think of numerous other reasons or constructions they'd not be able to pin it on you.

This is just another 'ignorant consumer intimidation' ploy IMO. They give you the impression that they can get to you, hoping that it will have piracy reducing effect.

However, stuff like this does point out the need of a decent legal cost insurance nowadays, you might just have bad luck and get picked out as an 'example case'.

More generally speaking on the topic of piracy, the ripping and sharing of music is something I really was set against, mainly with regards to the loss of income for the musicians that make the music I love, up to bout 2 months ago. Then I turned 180 degrees and joined the sharing pool to upload what I have and download what I want.

What made me change my mind?:
- Reading that large companies like Microsoft state that filesharing reached/crossed "critical mass" and reading that the P2P programs emule and kazaa took up over 40% of surfnet bandwith (one of the big dutch backbones). The genie is definately out of the bottle and its never goin back in.
- the realization that them greedy people have been overcharging me bout 100% in the first 10 years after the CD's started to get published, and I really want revenge for that.
- Most important, the realization that we are able to get the cash to the people that deserve it, the musicians, without the intervention of greedy people and without big record company bosses deciding who gets a shot at it and who don't. The link below gives an example how.

The Street Performer Protocol and Digital Copyrights

greetings,

Cyberschelm

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #46 – 2003-12-15 09:06:31

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Buy the CD, defeat the protection and make a good copy or two (one for personal use and one for backup), and then return the CD for a refund.

yes, but remember that there are people like me - who like have original package and so on [and this is not the so called "feticism"

i'm talking about the situation here in Italy...

There are a lot of ways of buying CDs at a lower prices instead that in the shops -ebay, used through amazon, for example, or djangos, or cd-wow- that there weren't before; the prices themselves aren't changed, compared to the wages of 20, 30 years ago, or better still they are lower [there was a long discussion on an italian music magazine]

The problems are others:

1) too many luxury products: a normal pocket money isn't often enough to cover all the buys [of course, you have to make a choice]

2) how radiohead says "anyone coul play guitar": now, anyone could make his own album [see what's happen with electronic music in which the 99 % is shit because one stand in front of the computer and here you are!]: there are too many CDs on the market. Of course, we couldn't modify this but there are more ways than before to understand that XYZ album is good or not -more magazines, newsgroups, internet, listening points in the shops, excerpts on amazon....-

3) the ones who don't buy cds are - apart from, of course, the lack of money- who generally don't care much of what they listen. I mean, a music lover always prefer spend 10€ for his original Velvet Underground & Nico instead of the John Average 17€ for Britney Spears.
I want to say that is changed the way people approach to music: the file sharing systems, that I consider the best way to know artists that i should possibly buy and the best way to listen on-the-fly at home or a good way, think about minidiscs, to listen to music form outside, suggest the idea that the music is totally free, but, it's not - or better, music has costs as 30 years ago, or, less-.

After these stupid points, i naturally don't like copy protections, i love sharing music on soulseek and i'm happy presenting a cd to a friend -a girl it's better -
and then have his/her thanks.

I suppose that RIAA [here there's SIAE which takes more percentage of money than RIAA on the cd-cost] should not change the way chosen; i don't think RIAA will have structural problems in the future as i don't think capitalism do [unfortunately ]

Of course, it seems a no-solution problem. and, it is; i don't think that lowering prices could solve something; i don't think copy protections could disappear -and i hope hydrogenaudio guys will study the way of avoiding them -; i don't think that the year-2k-guys are ready to reconsider their point of view about music.

so, i'll continue buy from ebay, ripping with EAC and sharing the best i can.

sincerely,

ciroopi

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #47 – 2003-12-15 09:13:56

I will buy all the copy protected CDs that are interesting to me.

I will then rip them as flawlessly as possible (CDS200 can't be flawlessly ripped though) and then return the discs for a full refund.

The reason for returning the discs are that they do not play in my dvd-player (or portable or car audio or...). Here where I live, the shops cannot refuse my return and they have to refund me for full price of the disc.

This is all perfectly legal although I consider it ethically questionable.

However, as long as the recording companies punish me as a paying customer, while the pirates are barely even slowed down by this process, I will join the legal pirates (remember, this kind of behaviour is legal where I live!).

99% of my few thousand cds/lps are originals. This looks like it's going to change.

Of course, all the CDs that have no copy protection, I keep to myself and do not return for a refund. Had I a choice between a copy protected CD and a non-protected CD I would buy the non-protected CD, even though I can get 100% refund for the copy protected CD and still get the songs off it.

regards,
halcyon

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #48 – 2003-12-15 11:31:47

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This is all perfectly legal although I consider it ethically questionable.

Not knowing where you live, that would have to stand...
But in the US at least, when you return, sell, or give your original, you are legally bound to also give up or erase all of your "fair use" copies.

(assuming the typical, but NOT universal, license terms that you can't redistribute)

"Don't buy copy protected audio CDs"

Reply #49 – 2003-12-16 18:19:27

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Well in france it's likewise. And you can ask for an unprotected one.
But, it will be a special made CD for you, labeled in your name and Watermarked.

Do you know if this is certainly the case?

An update on what I said earlier. The french firm that seem to do the watermarked CDs is called Level as I could find there : http://www.01net.com/article/224305.html (french)

What I found funny there was the comment of Eric Daugan of Warner Music France, he said, "I'm not sure we would sue the professionnals at the origin of the leak". Comment by the writer "Hard to imagine to sue the FNAC when it does 25% of Warner's sales".

Looking for infos, I stumbled on this link, what was prepared (still is?) makes me shiver. Read the "Fuss about RiO" part : http://www.heise.de/ct/english/99/14/078/
Having to do a software update to allow your MP3 player to play them. Fortunately year 2K wasn't a killer to them either.

Have we had a little premonition here ? : http://www.moremayo.com/rants/mp3-2.shtml
Well Audio CD is not dead yet, but the majors do what they can to expedite it.

And both SACD and DVD-A are SDMI compliant and watermarked, thus maybe if the DIVX had worked and the unsecure CD was killed we would have to rent our music instead of buying it. http://www.moremayo.com/rants/patronism.shtml

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