HydrogenAudio

Hydrogenaudio Forum => General Audio => Topic started by: KikeG on 2002-12-16 11:26:03

Poll
Question: How high can you hear?
Option 1: 12 KHz votes: 2
Option 2: 14 KHz votes: 4
Option 3: 16 KHz votes: 5
Option 4: 17 KHz votes: 9
Option 5: 17.5 KHz votes: 3
Option 6: 18 KHz votes: 14
Option 7: 18.5 KHz votes: 10
Option 8: 19 KHz votes: 11
Option 9: 20 KHz votes: 10
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-16 11:26:03
I've uploaded some test samples at http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/lowpass (http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/lowpass) in order to test how high can people hear with a clip of 'special' but real (pop) music.

These clips have a very strong high-frequency impulsive peak, at the frequency specified for every sample, and there is a lowpassed clip for each one with just that frequencies an above removed. All clips are resampled versions of the same clip, (where the strong peak is originally at 16300 KHz) , so that for every sample the peak is at a different frequency.

In order to know if you can hear the strong impulsive peak for every sample, you must be able to ABX the test sample against the lowpassed version of it. ABX is required in order to have meaningful results.

I have available just the clips shown here because I have no more space in my web page.

The 12 KHz clip should be easily ABXable for nearly anyone, specially if they are not very old. On casual listening (without concentrating) and using good soundcard & headphones (Audiophile 2496, Sennheiser HD 580) I can hear a difference on the lowpassed 17.5 KHz clip. Concentrating I could ABX the 18 KHz file, with results of 12/14 (p=0.6 %).

This should be a more realistic test of how high can people hear in extreme cases of somewhat 'real' music.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SK1 on 2002-12-16 12:48:45
To me this is even funny.. The difference is SO VERY obvious to me with all the samples except the 20khz one. ABX'd in seconds 8/8 each time. With the 20khz one though it's harder, but 10/10. The major difference is noticable in the ringing sound. It's easy for me, ah i feel good now, thanks for this test KikeG .
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: daniel on 2002-12-16 13:36:42
:'(  :'( 14khz abx:12/12
Will rest my ears for few days and try later.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: caligae on 2002-12-16 13:52:31
Quote
This should be a more realistic test of how high can people hear in extreme cases of somewhat 'real' music.

I don't get this. Why should resampling provide a more realistic scenario?

Wouldn't it be more real-world like if you just lowpass the same sample at different frequencies?

Anyway. I could abx up to 18kHz. Using "normal" samples on ff123.net my cutoff is way earlier. To test how high you can hear, you can alway use some sinus waveform.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-16 15:04:20
@caligae:

I have used resampling simply to generate musical signals with a clear, strong peak at a particular frequency, whilst not being simply pure tones (sinus waveforms as you say). Using music instead of tones, masking effects are more taken into account, effects that with a single isolated tone aren't. Also, I hope that aliases caused by poor resampling in some soundcards are less audible than with pure tones, because it is more probable they get masked.

With pure tones, I can easily hear up to 18.5 KHz if I crank up the volume. With these test signals, maybe if I cranked up the volume and put lots of effort I could ABX the 18.5 KHz sample, but at normal conditions I can't. Even at those extreme conditions I'm not sure I could ABX them, due to ear internal masking.

Edit: actually, this test tries to emulate 'worst-case' musical signals. Whilst the original sample has this strong 'dominating' peak at 16 KHz all over the whole song, I don't think it can be common music with of this kind of peaks over 17 KHz. I believe that with regular music (even the original non-resampled file of this test), a lowpass of 17 or 17.5 KHz would be very difficult to hear.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-16 15:16:05
@SK1

Man, you have bat ears. If anyone could host more samples, I could make available similar 20.5 KHz, 21 KHz and 21.5 KHz samples in order to fully test your ears.

However, the 21.5 KHz peak would be on the limit of possibilities of reconstruction of 44.1 KHz DACs. Mmm... I can upsample them to 48 KHz. That would be also good for the other files, but maybe this way they all won't fit in my web space... I have to check it out.

What is your equipment? I read it, but I can't remember now.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-12-16 16:34:56
Same as with the sweep tone, resampling in most soundcards will get any file ABX able even at 21 kHz lowpass, because it will change the low frequency content. Use non resampling soundcards or burn CDs.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: ErikS on 2002-12-16 16:35:48
18.5 (4/4 ABA)

I was surprised... 16-17 kHz lowpass used to be inaudible before. Is it because the special clip now?
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SK1 on 2002-12-16 16:54:28
I don't think i have bat ears . I'm 19.5, so i guess i have good hearing fit for this age. Maybe better than of most but i'm really not sure. However, i was really bummed when i called my brother to try hear if there's a difference between the 20khz samples, because it seemed it was so much easier for him, damn!  He's 16 years old. Didn't ABX, he's not into that, never did any listening test either  i just had to try though, asked him what's "sharper" or stronger, he listened a few times and then answered, and then each time answered correctly.
Actually, i think i should have written it was -much- harder to notice the difference with the 20khz samples. With everything below it's..relaxingly easy for me but 20khz is totally different. I think the only difference i can hear is that the "riiing" is louder, stronger, wouldn't say i really notice a difference in sharpness like with 19khz.
21 khz and 21.5 khz, wooo, i think that's impossible for me  i'll never hear a difference, no way. With sweeps (not "real music") it's possible maybe, but naa, no WAY with music .

I did this test with speakers that had their tweeters replaced by Boss TW-17car  tweeters i believe , the sound isn't really great..but for highs i have all i need (hmm i don't think those tweeters can reach 21khz anyway  their specs say 20khz, so probably somewhat higher but not 21, anyway who cares  such sharpness blows your mind..)

edit: hey damn this post has a lot of smilies! 
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: caligae on 2002-12-16 18:48:51
Quote
Also, I hope that aliases caused by poor resampling in some soundcards are less audible than with pure tones, because it is more probable they get masked.

I was fooled by my soundcard some time ago using waveforms. I made a 20 second sinus going from 20Hz up to 22000Hz. Listened to it and i could hear the whole range without any problems.

After i upgraded my soundcard i noticed that those very high tones i heard were not the sound it was supposed to be at all but the soundcard making werid noises.

With this sample this issue might not be as bad since there is some music included beside the high frequency tone.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SometimesWarrior on 2002-12-16 23:15:47
Quote
Same as with the sweep tone, resampling in most soundcards will get any file ABX able even at 21 kHz lowpass, because it will change the low frequency content. Use non resampling soundcards or burn CDs.

Shouldn't the audio files made available for downloading be resampled to 48kHz (for owners of resampling soundcards)? Otherwise the test isn't about hearing high frequencies in real music, it's about hearing soundcard aliasing in real music.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-12-16 23:46:48
The problem might be the same at 48 kHz. Someone with an SB live should test it.
But two traps must be avoided :
1) Resampling the sweep from 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz can itself  introduce aliasing, even with antialias.
2) Sweep generators in sound editors can themselves generate aliases

Performing a spectrum analysis on the 48 kHz sweep before testing is necessary to ensure that the sweep is pure.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: rehgf on 2002-12-17 00:02:20
One of those waiting for a (good) 48 kHz version is me. I hear above 20 kHz but can't trust my SB Live soundcard with 44.1 kHz samples.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Mac on 2002-12-17 00:28:15
Ugh, the polling software confused me!  I click on view results to see how other people did, and now it won't let me vote, I cast a null one.  Move to phpBB!!!!

Could one of the moderators vote for me please?  The highest I could hear was 17kHz.


Great idea for a test btw, I really like the idea of resampling to gradually go higher or lower
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: mithrandir on 2002-12-17 01:54:01
The 17KHz lowpass file sounds the same as the "original". The 16KHz samples sound different but it takes some concentration.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: JohnV on 2002-12-17 02:52:34
Quote
Ugh, the polling software confused me!  I click on view results to see how other people did, and now it won't let me vote, I cast a null one.  Move to phpBB!!!!

You voted a null vote in order to see the results..  You can't first check the results, and then give your vote...that could lead to remarkable bias in some polls.
Null vote is a vote..

Invision Board is very much better than phpBB. 
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-17 08:16:21
Uploading 48 KHz files, old files not available at the moment...

Edit: upload not immediate, ftp problems in this moment.

Edit: fixed, see my next post.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SometimesWarrior on 2002-12-17 09:25:02
Quote
Quote
Ugh, the polling software confused me!  I click on view results to see how other people did, and now it won't let me vote, I cast a null one.  Move to phpBB!!!!

You voted a null vote in order to see the results..  You can't first check the results, and then give your vote...that could lead to remarkable bias in some polls.
Null vote is a vote..

Invision Board is very much better than phpBB. 

If you really want to "sneak a peek" at the results, log off and view the thread anonymously. My browser has a nasty habit of forgetting that I logged into HA my last visit (I screwed up the cookie settings), so I end up seeing the results every time before I vote, which pretty much nullifies the significance that the poll had before I voted.

I'm glad that KikeG is making the effort to distinguish between high-frequency hearing with sine sweeps and with "real" music, because it's something I haven't really bothered testing extensively. Looking forward to the 48kHz samples... (as if I didn't know what SSRC was, but I don't have any spectrum analysis tools to make sure I don't screw something up)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: daniel on 2002-12-17 09:51:01
 Yesterday I couldnt distinguish 16khz lowpass. Heh.
Today: 16khz 16/18
17.5khz 4/4
Havent voted yet, becouse hearing improves with age (w00t)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-17 15:58:06
I've finished uploading the files resampled to 48 KHz. I've uploaded additional 21 KHz and 21.5 KHz files to test some people hearing limits.

The files are now in .ape (Monkey's Audio) format, because the compression for some of the files is much better that with FLAC.

About the resampling, it was performed too with CEP 1.2a, quality 120 and post-filtering. Possible aliases due to resampling are explained at the web page:

"Update: actual files were resampled again from 44.1 KHz 16 bit to 48 KHz 32 bit and then re-dithered to 16 bit using same procedure, in order to avoid any possible bad soundcard resampling. Added noise due to this last step is mimimal.

Note on resampling effects: frequency aliases that appear due to the resampling process appear from 19 KHz to 22 KHz and are caused always from a frequency 4 KHz below (15 KHz to 18 KHz). They have a max. amplitude of around -95 dB (at 22 KHz) down the aliased frequencies. All other aliases are equal or below quantization noise. So, this aliases can be considered inaudible and of no importance in this test. ".

About this aliases, I've seen from time to time cd tracks that have a much louder in comparison constant tone at 16 KHz and above, probably caused by CRT displays (TVs, computer monitors) at the recording studios, that are unnoticed when listening, they are only noticeable on FFTs.

Anyway, it would be interesting for the people who has taken the test, to repeat it again and see if their results differ much.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: ff123 on 2002-12-17 16:10:03
Quote
I've finished uploading the files resampled to 48 KHz. I've uploaded additional 21 KHz and 21.5 KHz files to test some people hearing limits.

So far, I've only tried the 14 kHz lowpassed (48 kHz version), with 8/8 for ABX.  It was surprisingly (at least I was surprised) easy to hear.  I'll try others later.

My soundcard (M-Audio Audiophile 2496) plays at the native sample rate.

ff123

Edit:  Ah, 16 kHz is beyond me.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Q! on 2002-12-17 17:13:34
18kHz

Funny, I can abx the 18kHz lowpassed easily, but 18.5 sounds the same as the original.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SK1 on 2002-12-17 19:20:38
Hi again.
Well, i tried and i tried .
I can hear the difference between all the samples up to 20khz (including), but with 21 (and obviously 21.5) i can't distiguish the two at all...no difference arrrg! no matter how much i try. (maybe it's the tweeters, specs say 20khz, but i totally doubt it).
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Mr. Superbad on 2002-12-17 21:16:17
I had to focus on the area from about 1-2 seconds... there's two "dings" where I can tell a difference up to 20khz.

I'm trying 21khz now... but it's already much, much harder.


Edit:

I got 4/4 on the 20hz sample, then went back an hour later and got 10/10. I can usually breeze through the first couple trials but then have to take a slight break between each try after that, or else I can't tell a difference.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: CRasch on 2002-12-17 21:21:57
I did a hearing test and I could hear past the 20kHz range. But I can barely tell the diffrence when a using a lowpass filter between a 18, 19 and 20kHz for most music, but I can tell on the diffrence between the 17 and 18 kHz on most new wave and techno music.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Mac on 2002-12-17 21:44:47
I found the same.  17khz sounded clearly different, but 17.5khz they sounded identical.

Heh, this also showed me that my left tweeter doesn't go above 14khz!    How crappy!

(btw, i've voted now at 17khz - very sneeky)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: RIV@NVX on 2002-12-18 21:59:11
What means to ABX a file?
How to do it?
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SK1 on 2002-12-18 22:01:35
Use a program, like WinABX (by KikeG, starter of this poll )
clickme (http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: RIV@NVX on 2002-12-18 22:16:24
Quote
Use a program, like WinABX (by KikeG, starter of this poll )
clickme (http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/)

OK, will try to hear tomorrow. Will report here, batman
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-19 08:03:46
ABX is a method of testing audible differences, it's a type of DBT (double-blind test). See FAQ thread at the general section.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: zerobyte on 2002-12-19 13:49:51
the problem is not hearing a 20k or 18k signal, it's differentiating between 18k and 20k, since mechanic resonators (like the human ear) become more broad-banded with higher frequencies.

00h
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-19 15:04:57
You're right, but many people can hear 18 KHz content and cannot hear 19 KHz content. Also, I think it is interesting to know how high I can hear, because simply I want to know, and because it has some obvious implications on lossy codecs tuning and use.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-19 15:17:28
I'm seeing in the pool that some people can supposedly hear 19-20 KHz content, but so far only two of them have provided ABX results. Anyone of the others has some ABX results?
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SK1 on 2002-12-19 15:56:02
Hello. I've decided to provide the accurate results. Used KikeG's fine program WinABX. (had a hard time this time .. maybe because i have a cold)

Code: [Select]
-------------------------------------
WinABX v0.22 (ABA) test report
12/19/2002 17:36:35

A file: E:\ABX\Chenoa_19KHz.wav
B file: E:\ABX\Chenoa_19KHz_lowpass.wav

17:37:05    1/1  p=33.3%
17:37:53    2/2  p=11.1%
17:38:19    3/3  p= 3.7%
17:38:43    4/4  p= 1.2%
17:39:14    5/5  p= 0.4%
17:39:42    6/6  p= 0.1%
-------------------------------------
WinABX v0.22 (ABA) test report
12/19/2002 17:45:06

A file: E:\ABX\Chenoa_20KHz.wav
B file: E:\ABX\Chenoa_20KHz_lowpass.wav

17:46:04    1/1  p=33.3%
17:46:44    2/2  p=11.1%
17:47:23    3/3  p= 3.7%
17:48:01    4/4  p= 1.2%
17:48:58    5/5  p= 0.4%
17:49:48    6/6  p= 0.1%
17:49:48  test finished
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2002-12-20 07:58:21
@SK1: my previous post was aimed to the other people that hasn't provided any ABX results, but good to have more results from you.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: SK1 on 2002-12-20 13:05:07
Yeah i thought so, but felt that anyway it would be more complete . Thanks.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: Bedeox on 2002-12-21 12:42:50
Yep, ABXed this lately, and it seems I'm able
to hear music up to 18.5

18.5 Hz ABX 8/8
19 Hz ABX 5/8
19 Hz ABX (again) 11/16 (hell, I can SOMETIMES distinguish that...)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: RIV@NVX on 2002-12-21 16:10:54
I can hear 17-18 Khz (using ABX 0.23).
Will do more test when I get  TerraTec DMX 6fire 24/96... will see if it changes something.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-03 21:05:45
Wow, i´m impressed!

Either that samples are better, more worse or my ears got better    B)

The frequency test from pcabx, i could not hear no differences at all!

Here, it looks like this:

Code: [Select]
kHz   WinABX
12     10/10
14     10/10
16      9/10
17      5/5    (got lazy, because of WinABX - see below - and because it got hard already!)
17.5    5/5    (yeah! more easy this time - needed a gap, it seems)
18      -/-    (even more lazy)
18.5    9/10
19      9/10   *grin*
20      no way (but i feel that it COULD be possible ... need a better day for that - and relaxed ears)
21      no way
21.5    no way


So, a lowpass of 19 is too low for me (and so, --alt-preset standard!)
19.5 may be, 20 will be enough for me, with 20.5 having a bit more room - so, 20.5 was a good choice, so far 
Sad, that there is no 19.5 kHz sample   

Some comments:

That WinABX is, say a FINE programm      - but i will try another! WinABX is quite uncomfortable ...

I did not completely understand that test, i need to say.
Those samples got faster and faster ... why?!?! (probably just don´t understand enough about thos ethings    B) )
I needed to concentrate on two peeks somewhere in the middle!

The basic-samples did not use a lowpass and the ones called *lowpass* where made with a lowpass at the given kHz-number, yes?


Edited to add this:

I tested the 20 kHz sample and noticed the following:

At my first try every time, i have quite a good score to get it right!
But second and subsequent trials i cannot even guess ...
I need to concentrate on that two peeks somewhere in the middle of the sample.
I very strongly have the feeling that my ears reduce sensitivity because of the OTHER sounds around that two peeks. They are to loud compared to that peeks ... does anybody have similar samples to try?


Edited again:

I tried castanets-060_lo18KHz.wav against castanets-060_lo22KHz.wav and had NO chance!
It seems, i need special samples for that - like Chenoa   
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: ger@co on 2003-03-03 21:33:34
I'm impressed too.  Impressed by the fact that you would ressurect a dead thread (December 21st, 2002).

Later.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-03 22:12:41
Hi Ger@co,
to be honest, i don´t understand your concept of "old".   

This is a valid thread (or topic), not locked, not closed and not deleted. For me, and any other person reading this the first time, it is as good as new ...
Also, the last reply - from 12. Dec 2002 - is only three month away!
What, if the next reader will stumble upon it in 10 years? For him, it will be quite an interesting and valid thread to reply to!

As i think about that, it seems, you tracked the thread, did you?   
Or did you look every other day manually?   

Anyway, i would like to get 19.5 and 20.5 kHz samples   
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2003-03-04 09:04:05
TJA, I think indeed this test is quite useful no matter how old is it.

About your comments, you seem to have quite good hearing. The fact that you can hear "higher" here as opposed to PCABX samples is because the special clips I used. They are also speeded up for this reason, read the thread and the page explanations and I think you will understand why.

Hearing high frequencies is in practice limited my ear masking, low frequencies mask easily higher frequencies, and since most of the musical content is on low and medium frequencies, ultra-high frequencies get usually masked. With the "Chenoa" (name of a spanish singer) samples, the high frequency content is relatively unusual (bot not so much with modern music) both in amplitude and in frequency of the peaks. Resampling (speeding up) the samples I move the frequency of the peak, up in the frequency scale.

Note also that this is a near-worst-case test, most non-speeded up music doesn't have such high peaks at isolated frequencies over 16-17 KHz.

Quote
Anyway, i would like to get 19.5 and 20.5 kHz samples


I think I have them, but I ran out of web space, I guess I could send them to you via PM.

About your tests, don't stress too much, take your time to do them, and rest when needed.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-04 17:53:35
Quote
Quote

Anyway, i would like to get 19.5 and 20.5 kHz samples


I think I have them, but I ran out of web space, I guess I could send them to you via PM.

Thanx for the explanation, Kikeg!

I would like to get that samples and have setup an ftp-mirror for such samples.

Here you could put your additional samples to:

    anonymous ftp (user "ftp") to 131.220.120.101:/devel/ftp/incoming

Here i will store all samples:

    anonymous ftp (user "ftp")  to 131.220.120.101:/devel/ftp/pub

Currently, it looks like this:

wav/kikeg
wav/pcabx
wav/mixed

later there will also be wav/sqam (see below)

I´m currently creating the same structure for Flac, WavPack and Monkey´s Audio.
This will take some time to reach the ftp-server as i am at home and only can use DSL at 128kbps, but it´s moving already!   

flac/kikeg
flac/sqam
flac/mixed

Comment: Flac is making problems for me ... it complans about some subchannels?!?! 

options: -P 4096 -b 4608 -m -l 12 -e -q 0 -r 0,6
piano1_1644_MASK06.wav: 94% complete, ratio=0,489piano1_1644_MASK06.wav: WARNING
: skipping unknown sub-chunk 'LIST'

wv/kikeg
wv/sqam
wv/mixed

ape/kikeg
ape/sqam
ape/mixed

Additionally, i plan to include the PCABX test-samples in the same structure as well (will take some time, as the directories made problems to my script - need to look at that):

flac/pcabx
wv/pcabx
ape/pcabx

I offer this place for any exchange of test-samples, if need is be!   

    Spread the Word      B)

Just put it into "/incoming" and i will move it to an appropriate location ...

Edited: ftp-mirror is set up as written above - only pcabx in compressed versions is missing
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: DonP on 2003-03-04 20:32:42
VERY interesting test!  The first sample I tried (17.5) I didn't hear any difference between A and B until I concentrated on the bells.
After that, up to 18.5 I could guess pretty reliably by just playing X OR Y (like 10/12 reliable) and then playing the other
one to check.

By 21 khz I had to play X and Y multiple times to be sure, and occasionally check against A and B.

I didn't see how to get a text report from the program, so I just copied the scores off the screen..

12/12 right up to 21 kHz.

Particulars:
Age:  47
Phones: Sony V6
Soundcard: Intel I810 on motherboard

Even though I could detect the difference, I would be hard pressed to
say that I'd have reduced enjoyment listening to 17.5 khz limited music.
I would have to try with (good) speakers to see if imaging is affected,
which I don't percieve as strongly with phones.

Side note: 15 years or so ago (when my hearing was presumably better)
I was at an "audiophile"  friend's house checking out his system (and our ears)
with a test tone CD.  At 18 kHz I could only hear it in a very narrow angle
from the center axis of his tweeter, maybe +/- 5 degrees.  Beware that effect
if you try this test with speakers.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2003-03-05 11:08:55
Quote
Comment: Flac is making problems for me ... it complans about some subchannels?!?! 

It's not sub-channels, but RIFF sub-chunks. A sub-chunk is part of a wave file that contains some type on information or comments about the data type. The warning can probably be ignored, just make sure that FLAC compression works ok.

About your ftp: nice! I'll pass my remaining samples when I have some time, I don't have access to them right now.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2003-03-05 11:13:25
Quote
I didn't see how to get a text report from the program, so I just copied the scores off the screen..

There's a log file at the program location. However, no need to copy the whole log file, just final results, included p value, is fine.

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12/12 right up to 21 kHz.

Particulars:
Age: 47
Phones: Sony V6
Soundcard: Intel I810 on motherboard


Interesting results... However, it's *really* strange that at 47 you are able to hear so easily 21 KHz signals... I'd try to repeat the test using some good quality sound card, instead of an embedded one. There's a possybility that your card is folding down into the lower audio spectrum those very high frequencies. One way of checking this somehow, is paying attention to the kind of differences heard. I believe that very high frequencies are not heard, but "felt" inside your head, the higher the frequency, the more this happens.

Edit: strictly talking, nobody can make sure that this is not happening with other peoples' setups, including amp and headphones/speakers. The better the audio setup, the less likely this is happening.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: tigre on 2003-03-05 11:46:31
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One way of checking this somehow, is paying attention to the kind of differences heard.

Another way is to create sine tones with changing pitch (e.g. sweeps) with some wave editor at the sampling rate you're going to use for abxing. Then listen to it through your soundcard. If you watch the spectral view while listening and you hear decreasing pitch at a point where frecquency increases in spectral view (or the other way round) you should change something, e.g. use other equipment, other drivers, even lowering system/wave volume could help in some cases. To improve security, you should burn the test sample to audio CD and listen to it on different (hopfully decent) CD-Players.

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I believe that very high frequencies are not heard, but "felt" inside your head, the higher the frequency, the more this happens.


It's similar for me. Until 17.5kHz cutoff it sounds different to me (brightness of the "bing"s), at higher cutoffs I could abx (tried up to 18.5kHz so far) because it felt like there was some kind of increased presure in my ear causing some kind of dizzy feeling in my head. (No, I didn't listen at 130dB.  )
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2003-03-05 11:51:45
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Another way is to create sine tones...

Yes, this is a more objective way of checking it. The best method is to record the sweep output of the card with a different, good card, and analyze the recording.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: DonP on 2003-03-05 13:08:07
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Interesting results... However, it's *really* strange that at 47 you are able to hear so easily 21 KHz signals...

I was surprised too.  As to the quality of sound I was keyed on it was always that the lowpassed
bell rings sounded a little duller, with the difference getting more subtle as the cutoff went up..

20 and 21 required a lot of concentration.  If there were a fold-down or mixing product providing a
"cheat", then I would expect the spurious tone would get lower as the frequency went up, and
distinguishing the samples would get easier or remain the same.    If the spurious low frequency
is only in the unfiltered wave, then would that still be the one to sound brighter?

Is it possible that the low pass filtering induced a temporal shift near the cutoff frequency?
That wouldn't show up in a spectrum analysis of the filtered wave.

Since the CD player isn't so good for A/B switching, maybe I can get the kids to
put together a random (but write it down!) sequence of the samples in 1 wave file
and then burn it.  then I can try to determine the sequence by listening.

For what it's worth, in high school there was a 30 khz transducer in the physics lab.  I couldn't
hear it as a tone, but I could always tell when it was on.  I've always been the type to take
ear plugs to rock concerts.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2003-03-05 13:41:56
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Is it possible that the low pass filtering induced a temporal shift near the cutoff frequency?
That wouldn't show up in a spectrum analysis of the filtered wave.

According to SpectraLab FFT magnitude & phase measurements, frequency response mismatch is below 0.1 dB up to 20900 Hz, phase response mismatch below 1 degree up to 21100 Hz.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-06 02:51:24
I tried the 19 kHz samples again and is was sooo easy to hear the difference that i got to 29/30 - the one mistake sure is an error because i was clicking quite fast between the buttons ...

About the (possible  ) 19.5 and 20.5 samples, i am not sure that i can test that on my current equipment.
As elaborated here http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=21&t=7089 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=7089) i need to go from my soundcard analog to a digital receiver to hear with headphones. And the quality i get from that is quite bad ... 

Only way to get around that is a new soundcard, with a digital optical out and an additional speaker out, so i can hook up both a receiver and that headphones directly without a receiver ...

About high frequencies, i´m 37, and also sometimes hear some electronic equipment or TV-sets, where most people i ask "do you hear that?" cannot hear it.
But i have no idea what frequences a TV or monitor (in standby) does produce ... 
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: CiTay on 2003-03-06 12:51:46
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But i have no idea what frequences a TV or monitor (in standby) does produce ...  

15.625 KHz for PAL, 15.75 KHz for NTSC.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: GeSomeone on 2003-03-06 13:04:18
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... what frequences a TV or monitor (in standby) does produce .

15.625 KHz for PAL, 15.75 KHz for NTSC.

I would think nothing in stand-by
--
Ge Someone
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: DonP on 2003-03-06 13:32:25
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About high frequencies, i´m 37, and also sometimes hear some electronic equipment or TV-sets, where most people i ask "do you hear that?" cannot hear it.
But i have no idea what frequences a TV or monitor (in standby) does produce ...  

I don't know about PAL, but NTSC (the US TV format) the scan frequency is around 15 kHz.
Computer monitors are all over depending on your video card settings, but if you hear a whine in standby
that is probably in the power supply rather than the flyback (scan) transformer.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: CiTay on 2003-03-06 13:40:05
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I would think nothing in stand-by

I reckoned he was talking about the monitor, not the TV.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: CiTay on 2003-03-06 13:49:56
By the way: 15.75 KHz tones are present on many (even professional) CD productions (in Europe 15.625 KHz tones), which can be seen in spectral analysis. This tones end up on the recording via direct acoustic transmission or when the magnetic field of a TV set near the studio room induces a voltage in the microphone cables.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-06 16:22:59
Hello together,

when that´s not even 16 kHz, it is not a sign for being able hear good - just wondering that other people could not hear it. Maybe they just have REALY bad ears   

KikeG?
Not to bug you, but is there a chance for the samples?   
(ftp-server is up and running and also contains some music ...)

ftp://131.220.120.101/ (http://ftp://131.220.120.101/)

then "incoming" to put things, "pub" to get things ...

Bye,
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-11 13:23:36
Hi!

Thanx to Kikeg for those 19.5 and 20.5 samples!
They are sitting in the above mentioned ftp-server ... (pub/wav/kikeg only, for now)

I tested again:

19.5: like a breeze 10/10
20:    this time, nearly as easy!!!! (last time my ears were already deaf, i think)
20.5: much harder due to mistakes and then increasing hearing fatigue - i needed to stop before
beeing able to get below minimal procentage:

###
ABC/HR Version 0.9b, 30 August 2002
Testname: kikeg2

1R = M:\Audio\TEST\wav\kikeg\Chenoa_20_5KHz_lowpass.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs M:\Audio\TEST\wav\kikeg\Chenoa_20_5KHz_lowpass.wav
    23 out of 32, pval = 0.010
###

BUT, i can here the differences quite well! At least till i hear them 10 times ... after that, it gets harder and harder to differentiate!

Also, for 20 kHz and 20.5 kHz it was much harder then 19.5 kHz and below!
I needed to hear "X", "X", then "A", then "X", then "B" then "X" for each trial ...
At 19.5 and below, i could just click "X", only sometime "A" and "X" to verify and then "next trial"   

Is there a program that supports some checksum?
I mean right now  that is not a prove, as i could have made that up.
Maybe a program that calculates some checksum to verify the correct result?!?!   

I did not test 21 kHz again - but even with fresh ears, i don´t think i can get that ...

Btw. i am 37!!!    B)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: TJA on 2003-03-13 08:56:32
Update:

No way to hear the 21kHz lowpass
But 20.5 is confirmed!    B)
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: KikeG on 2003-03-13 10:22:26
Still, take the results with a grain of salt, because if your card is not very good it can be influencing the test. For example, the other day, I got surprised when unadvertedly I could hear an obvious difference, on casual listening, with the 20.5 KHz  lowpass samples.

What happened is that I was listening to the 44.1 KHz samples using Winamp directsound plugin in W98. With waveout plugin, which is safe, I could hear no difference, as usual. The directsound plugin, in my system (mostly for being Win98) ,distorts very high frequencies to the point that makes them easily audible, I guess some weird bad resampling happens.
Title: How high can you hear (with music & lowpass)
Post by: masterofimages on 2003-03-17 22:51:08
A very interesting test. First time I've ABXed anything. Up to 17.5 was easy (4/4), but then at 18 it got harder (8/10) and at 18.5 I couldn't tell (0/4). I must say that I'm surprised that I could tell the 18 cut-off so easily. In tone tests I could swear I can only hear up to 17.5!