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Topic: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer? (Read 7211 times) previous topic - next topic
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AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

I recently bought the AKG K7XX headphones from MassDrop along with what I'm assuming are most of the other newcomers to the audiophile world; however, I didn't, and still don't, realistically have any idea what I'm doing.

I've spent an ungodly number of hours on google trying to find any means of recourse to make these headphones meet my expectations, and the opinions of the audiophile community seem to vary immensely.  I cannot find anyone who can explain what the hell is going on with actual numbers. They all use ridiculous subjective metrics that I could not possibly understand without having the chance experienced them myself.

Would an Amp be more cost efficient?
I have a GA-z97x motherboard with Gigabyte's own fancy built in amp that is suppose to be able to power up headphones with 600 ohm impedance.  Don't know rightly how much good that does me, if any. I plug the K7XX headphones into the rear port, and they get respectably loud, but there are obvious signs of distortion and static.  So, a DAC would do me wonders there right?  Well, I have an external "Sound Blaster X-FI Go! Pro" usb sound card, but would this suffice? If I bought an amp and plugged it up into the Sound Blaster card would that be an adequate Amp/DAC combo? That would mean I would only need buy a decent amp.

Would a DAC be more cost efficient?
My motherboard's built in amp gets it almost loud enough, but that static/distortion has to go, and I cannot use the sound card to get rid of it. The question is, would buying a DAC a better choice than an amp? My power supply, the Cosair CS850m, may provide a sufficiently consistent power to the DAC/headphones; however, the 600 ohms has me confused as hell.  I don't know much about electricity, but I do know that ohms is a ratio of volts to amps, and the K7XX is low impedance at 60 ohms and high current at I don't even know. They are certainly not too loud plugged into the built in amp. Does that mean they aren't getting enough current? Is this due to too high of an impedance from the motherboard?  It says UP TO 600 ohm headsets on their website and seemingly no other relevant information.

Do I get a budget DAC/amp combo?
If neither of the previous options are viable, I'm willing to spend 200 dollars to remedy this situation-not out of financial straights but out of principle.  I don't want to spend 400 dollars on this, because I'm 100% sure the diminishing returns of doing so will pack quite a depressing punch. 

If you can give me a satisfying solution, paired with a reasonable explanation, I will not only be insanely impressed, but I will also, for all intensive purposes, love you forever.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: videophile on
I recently bought the AKG K7XX headphones from MassDrop along with what I'm assuming are most of the other newcomers to the audiophile world; however, I didn't, and still don't, realistically have any idea what I'm doing.

I've spent an ungodly number of hours on google trying to find any means of recourse to make these headphones meet my expectations, and the opinions of the audiophile community seem to vary immensely.  I cannot find anyone who can explain what the hell is going on with actual numbers. They all use ridiculous subjective metrics that I could not possibly understand without having the chance experienced them myself.

Would an Amp be more cost efficient?
I have a GA-z97x motherboard with Gigabyte's own fancy built in amp that is suppose to be able to power up headphones with 600 ohm impedance.  Don't know rightly how much good that does me, if any. I plug the K7XX headphones into the rear port, and they get respectably loud, but there are obvious signs of distortion and static.  So, a DAC would do me wonders there right?  Well, I have an external "Sound Blaster X-FI Go! Pro" usb sound card, but would this suffice? If I bought an amp and plugged it up into the Sound Blaster card would that be an adequate Amp/DAC combo? That would mean I would only need buy a decent amp.

For reference, this may be one of the better articles about the subject that is worrying you. Have you read it?

nwavguy 2011 article about headphhones and headphone ampliifers  If you have any questions from reading it, you may want to post here, as NWAVGuy is a bit of a ghost.

Infor about what seems to be your motherboard:  Gigabyte.com  GA-Z97X-UD3H-rev-10 specs

Headphone specs: www.massdrop.com  page about AKG-k7xx headphones

I hope that Gigabyte's engineers are more savvy than their web page authoring folks, because a headphone amp that can drive 600 ohm headphones is no great shakes. High impedances are generally easier to drive than low ones, given that your headphone amp has enough voltage output to be loud enough.

Since you say that your headphones are respectably loud, their relatively high impedance (about 62 ohns per spec) is not causing problems on account of their high impedance.

The remaining issue is whether their impedance is low and variable enough to cause problems.  With that extra chip in there on the motherboard, it very well may not be any reason to add anything but your sweet self.

Gigabyte-amp-up-audio addtional information

This may be one of those situations where if its not broke, don't fix it.  Since you don't seem to be willing to rely on your ears, I could suggest some technical tests that you could run yourself if you are up for it. I cana't find any good ones on the web.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #2 –
Do the 'phones distort at all volume levels or only when you turn them all the way up?  (Using the green jack on the motherboard, right?)  You might want to check Windows sound settings to be sure there are no effects enabled:

Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Manage audio devices > Playback tab > Right-click headphone device > Properties > Enhancements > [X] Disable all sound effects

At one point you say "they get respectably loud" then later "gets it almost loud enough".  If it's not getting as loud as you want, you're going to need an amp.  Here's an example headphone DAC/amp: https://goo.gl/rYPXrh

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #3 –
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For reference, this may be one of the better articles about the subject that is worrying you. Have you read it?
I believe I understand slightly better, but I am still having a large degree of difficulty applying it to my current situation.  I may come off as reasonably Intelligent, but I can assure you my comprehension skills for new material are abysmal.

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This may be one of those situations where if its not broke, don't fix it.  Since you don't seem to be willing to rely on your ears, I could suggest some technical tests that you could run yourself if you are up for it. I can't find any good ones on the web.

That very well may be the case; I have no idea what good headphones are actually suppose to sound like, much less what a well driven AKG K7XX pair sounds like. This may be as good as it gets, but I can't help but feel that there is something I can do to get a better performance out of them. I would love some technical tests, because as I previously mentioned, I don't have the wherewithal to accurately assess whether or not they are preforming at their pinnacle.  They sound amazing, but the scope of my experience has been limited to the audio competency of gaming headsets, so I don't honestly know if they are amazing by nature or in comparison.

This being said, I do need to find a way to fix the static and minor distortion.
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Do the 'phones distort at all volume levels or only when you turn them all the way up?  (Using the green jack on the motherboard, right?)  You might want to check Windows sound settings to be sure there are no effects enabled:

Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Manage audio devices > Playback tab > Right-click headphone device > Properties > Enhancements > [X] Disable all sound effects

At one point you say "they get respectably loud" then later "gets it almost loud enough".  If it's not getting as loud as you want, you're going to need an amp.
I have never even looked at the enhancement tab, very interesting. I disabled all sound effects, but there was zero improvement in the static and distortion. The distortion is more noticeable at higher volumes for sure, and for most things the headset gets loud enough, but there are cases when I am listening to certain things that just do not get quite loud enough, so an amp could definitely help me there.  I am then left with the question, would simply getting a cleaner power source also clear up the static since there is no cross-talk/feed from the power supply?

Thank you both for the responses by the way.  I really just can't wrap my head around this very easily.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #4 –
"My motherboard's built in amp gets it almost loud enough, but that static/distortion has to go,"

I guess the above is the key issue. To diagnose it, we need a clear detailed description of the problem. When it happens, what is playing, what the headphone gain settings on the motherboard are, when it doesn't distort, etc.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #5 –
An external DAC/headphone amp should help.   Computers are electrically noisy inside and if you're having noise problems it often helps to keep the analog circuits outside of the computer.     You can get sometimes noise through the USB power so something that has it's own power supply (not USB powered) is more immune to that.

You might try an inexpensive USB soundcard, even it that doesn't turn-out to be the ultimate solution.    I wouldn't recommend the cheapest one you can find, but,  I have this one.    On my laptop with my headphones it's "dead silent" when the music isn't playing and it goes reasonably loud.     (I mostly use my USB soundcard for troubleshooting purposes and I only use headphones occasionally.)

In general, an external amp isn't going to help with the noise... It's going to amplify the noise along with the signal.     But, there is an exception...  If you are listening at low volumes and the noise doesn't get turned-down when you turn-down the music volume,  you can crank-up the computer's volume control for a better signal-to-noise ratio.   Then the amp can act like an attenuator and the signal & noise will be turned-down together.

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I'm willing to spend 200 dollars to remedy this situation-not out of financial straights but out of principle.  I don't want to spend 400 dollars on this,
$200 seems like a lot, although $100 - $200 might be reasonable for something "well built".    Just for a couple of references points, for $300 you can buy a 700 Watt name-brand professional power amplifier.   For $400 (or less) you can get a 5.1 channel home theater receiver.

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I have no idea what good headphones are actually suppose to sound like, much less what a well driven AKG K7XX pair sounds like. 
Well...  You shouldn't be hearing noise & distortion.   ;)       Beyond that, tastes & preferences vary, and headphones are difficult to measure because of the way they "interact" with the shape of the ear.   So, one person's ideal headphone may not be your ideal headphone, and a more expensive headphone or one with "better specs" may not sound better.   

Do you have anything else you can plug the headphones into?    A home stereo?   A smart phone?  An iPod?  A portable CD player?  That won't solve your problems but it should give you an idea of what your headphones should sound like.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #6 –
When the headset is plugged into the rear port, there is always some level of static. The distortion is particularly noticeable when the volume is at max, and EDM is the hardest hit genre. The bass seems to be the most affected, and it sounds like very faint, poor reception cellphone noises at times. These distortions, if I'm even using that term correctly, are largely unpredictable. They don't happen in the same circumstances all the time, every time.  While trying to find a pattern in this madness, I got one a particularly good example of it at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8VWSC281j4&t=35 ( time is set in the url ), but I could not recreate it after 20 attempts.  This makes me thing the power coming from the power supply to the amp is faulty, but that's pure conjecture.

Additionally, when ever I pause music that is at 50% total volume, or higher, there is an amp on/off thump noise. For example, in this video I found while trying to put my thoughts into words, the thump happens whenever the video is paused irregardless of the pitch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvBtQmY2B5I

There are no gain settings on my version of the motherboard. I didn't give you the correct name of my motherboard, or rather I gave you only partial information. I have the GA-Z97X-SLI REV 1.2, and apparently, the amp upgrades didn't come till the GA-Z97X-G1 and up series. The newer ones have the gain switch directly on the board, as well as some access to how they are used in the Gigabyte App Center.  Gain appears to be stuck at a flat rate on this version as it is geared towards video ( I.E. the extra PCIE slots ).

This is the product page for my version. Sorry for the confusion, I did not know the extensive iterations of the Z97X series.
http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-Z97X-SLI-rev-12#ov

While none of these quirks are a complete deal breaker, I'm not currently using the rear port because of them. Instead plugging it into my USB sound card. It doesn't have the static ( the distortion is also gone, now that I think about it ), but it doesn't get anywhere near being loud. This suits me fine for Skype and most games, but the music experience at this volume level is sorely lacking.

If anything I have said is blatantly stupid, please address it as so. This is certainly a learning experience for me.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #7 –
Quote
$200 seems like a lot, although $100 - $200 might be reasonable for something "well built".    Just for a couple of references points, for $300 you can buy a 700 Watt name-brand professional power amplifier.   For $400 (or less) you can get a 5.1 channel home theater receiver.

The problem I'm facing is the numerous people telling me certain amps sound dry/dead/saggy/cold/warm/wet/unresponsive/sterile/airy with the K7XX.  One guy even compared the resulting sound of pairing the K7XX with Magni 2 Uber to a blind date with a near tonic elderly lady; a "completely drab affair".  I have no idea how that specific example is realistically analogous to the situation, but the level of disagreement between people who seems to know substantially more than me speaking as if they each independently invented sound itself is extremely concerning.  I want a respectable looking amp/dac combo that won't break the bank and will sound amazing.  That's why I am pleading for numbers. Numbers are not biased, they don't have hidden agendas, and they don't care what you do in the end-they are completely objective!  Sorry for the tangent, by the way.

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Do you have anything else you can plug the headphones into?    A home stereo?   A smart phone?  An iPod?  A portable CD player?  That won't solve your problems but it should give you an idea of what your headphones should sound like.

I have a USB sound card that works quite nicely, but it does not get loud enough to really get into my music.  Does this mean if I get an amp I can just plug it into the sound card and presto! all is good in the world? That would be an extremely satisfying solution in all honesty, but if that's not the case, then it's not the case.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #8 –
I don't know which headphones you had before, but back when I upgraded to my ATH-M50x I suddenly realized that many tracks I listened to before have some artifacts/distortion which were masked by my old headphones. So at first I assumed it might be the same for you, but since you get distortion at different position of the track, that can't be it.

I think the windows realtek drivers allow you to click on the jack icon and assign the function. Have you tried selecting "Headphones" vs. "Line In" there? Also, have you tried plugging them at the front panel of your PC case (that one should act as "headphones" by default)?

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #9 –
Quote
I have a USB sound card that works quite nicely, but it does not get loud enough to really get into my music.  Does this mean if I get an amp I can just plug it into the sound card and presto! all is good in the world?
Most likely, yes.    If all you need is more amplification, and amplifier will do it!  

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The problem I'm facing is the numerous people telling me certain amps sound dry/dead/saggy/cold/warm/wet/unresponsive/sterile/airy with the K7XX.
All of that is "audiophile nonsense".    Those words seem to have a meaning, but they may mean different things to different people...     I would ignore anyone unless they can clearly describe the sound using engineering/scientific terminology (noise, distortion, frequency response, etc.).       And, it would be helpful if they can back-up those claims/descriptions with specs/measurements (and with blind listening tests).

Most people making these kind of claims are not doing scientific, blind, level-matched, listen tests.

Making a good quality headphone amp that's "better than human hearing" with modern electronics is not rocket science and it's not expensive. 

There are cases where the impedance of the headphone amp "interacts" with the headphone impedance.    And since headphone impedance is not constant over the audio frequency range, this can result in frequency response deviations and different headphones can sound different with different amplifiers.    That usually only happens with soundcards that are not specifically designed to work with headphones.     If the headphone amp's source impedance is low compared to the headphone impedance, that doesn't happen, so it's an easy problem to avoid.    

Or an output capacitor on an amplifier (of there is one) forms a high-pass filter, where the cutoff frequency increases with a lower impedance load.    i.e.   If the capacitor value is too low, you'll loose bass with lower-impedance headphones.

Note that both of these impedance-related issues are more difficult with lower impedance loads...    If  they can make power amp that works with 4 or 8 Ohm speakers, they easily can make a headphone amp that works with 32 or 64 Ohm headphones.

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That's why I am pleading for numbers. Numbers are not biased, they don't have hidden agendas, and they don't care what you do in the end-they are completely objective!
I agree, but the specs can be tricky for a number of reasons, and often they don't give you the "right" specs.  For example, it may be difficult to determine how loud (dB SPL) the amplifier will go with your headphones before distorting.    (Or you may not know how loud you want to go.)   The same with noise...  More-sensitive headphones will make noise more audible and the noise may, or may not, vary with the volume control setting. 

And people sometimes use specs to "prove" that A is better than B, although the measurable difference may not be audible, so this forum has TOS #8 which says:
Quote
...Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #10 –
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If all you need is more amplification, and amplifier will do it!

Well that's wonderful! You seem to know a lot about the electrical side of things, so do you have an amp recommendation based on what information they actually tell us about the K7XX?

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: videophile on

The problem I'm facing is the numerous people telling me certain amps sound dry/dead/saggy/cold/warm/wet/unresponsive/sterile/airy with the K7XX.

In general these comments are based on sighted evaluations without a comparison to a reliable standard, which is to say that no matter how well-intentioned they are, and no matter how experienced the listener is, or how good the equipment involved is, it is inherently unreliable. This may  sound like a self-serving or very bold statement, but it is a finding of our best current science.

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I have a USB sound card that works quite nicely, but it does not get loud enough to really get into my music. 

A common problem that I share.

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Does this mean if I get an amp I can just plug it into the sound card and presto! all is good in the world?

I recommend the JDS Labs Objective2.  It is based on the NWAVGUY O2 design which does just about everything right.

Jdslabs objective2 headphone amplifier

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That would be an extremely satisfying solution in all honesty, but if that's not the case, then it's not the case.

As one other poster has already correctly observed, that is the case.


If you are of the DIY persuasion, you can try these:

O2@ Headphone amp DIY solutions

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #12 –
Thank you guys so much for advice.  I ordered my O2 amp yesterday, and it should be here by next week.  I can't wait to hear the improvement.   ;D 

Re: AKG K7XX: Can someone give me a definitive answer?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: videophile on
Thank you guys so much for advice.  I ordered my O2 amp yesterday, and it should be here by next week.  I can't wait to hear the improvement.   ;D 

Once you get your new O2 going...

In the Android world, there is an inexpensive tool that adds both equalization and ear testing in one integrated package. It is called Neutralizer.

Cutsey Neutralizer introduction video on YouTube

Link to text explanation and Android download

This product is different.


Neutralizer is not a music player. Instead, it works with other music players or music sources that may be on the Android cell phone or touchpad. I've tested it on a Nvidea Shield tablet (Android 7.0) and a Samsung Galaxy S5 (Android 5.1). I've tested it with VLC and Google Music player. In both cases I set the music player's internal equalizers to flat. but I'm not sure that is mandatory. It is my undrrstanding that it is inttoduced into the data flow in Android after any programs, and just before the audio outputs of the device.


It is an interface for Android's internal equalizers, specifically the zero instance of them that is just before the audio output. Software that directly drives the audio output will bypass it. Android's internal equalizers are said to be of the graphic style, apparently with up to 10 or 12 bands starting at 32 Hz. The settings that are made persist after the program is stopped, or when the device is booted and the program is not itself started.

The settings are made via a graphic that shows a frequency response curve. An edit function that you click enables changing one band. When you are done adjusting it, you have to click to save or ignore your changes. While you are changing the slider for the particular frequency band, the music you are playing stops and a warble tone at the center frequency of the equalizer band is played. As you raise and lower the slider, the tone gets louder or softer. It is up to you to figure out an appropriate reference level as your goal for adjusting. I recommend something on the quiet side, as this was easier for me to work with to get results that pleased me. You can save all of your changes to overwrite an existing set of adjustments or name a new one.


So this tool combines an equalizer with a listening-based test of your entire playback chain including your ears.