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Topic: What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette) (Read 35848 times) previous topic - next topic
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What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

I am working on a project where I will be taking cassettes and putting them on CDs. This is not a situation where I am too cheap to buy old albums on CD or MP3. These are tapes of songs that never made it anywhere else but cassette.

I was wondering what to look for in regards to the best sound quality possible (without costing me a fortune). I am going to use the RCA out of the deck into my PC to capture the sound, and I can then check out some good programs to fix up the quality a bit. Anyway, I read so much stuff about capscans (sp?) and Dolby HX and other terms I never heard before agreeing to do this. I also can't have this break my bank since I am doing this for free; I need to spend less than $150 or so. I am assuming I will have to go the ebay route, but if I can head to Best Buy or Circuit City that's fine too.

I also heard 3 head players are what to look out for but since I am not using the recording function, just the playback, I'd also like to know how much that means to me.

I really appreciate any input you guys can give me. I considered that Ion Cassette 2 PC thing they make but something tells me the deck is going to be cheaply made and I'd be better off using audio line outs with a quality deck rather than USB with a cheap one.

Also please keep in mind I don't need a dual tape deck since I will not be making copies. I assume this will substantially make my endeavor cheaper.

As some examples, here's two decks I was looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NAD-SINGLE-STEREO-CASS...1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-TC-R302-Single-St...VQQcmdZViewItem

I've never heard of the first brand (Nad? I hear Beavis and Butt-head laughing in the background) and the Sony one may be from around the time their quality plummeted, not to mention it's only a 2-head system (again I think that's only important for recording but some googling told me otherwise).

Thanks to anyone who can help!

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #1 –
Dual capstans generally help with steadier playback and are especially useful with the far too common problem of dead or missing pressure pads on old cassettes.

The cassette well cover should come off so it is easier to adjust azimuth and to clean the tape path, especially the pinch rollers.

3 head won’t mean much for playback only.

Auto reverse is a quality destroyer. Not good even if you can turn it off because the tape head platform is quirky.

All really good decks are single well. The cheapie ones are the dubbing decks.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #2 –
Just to add to Andy's excellent advice, don't worry about Dolby HX Pro either. It's an effect that's only used during the recording process. It has no effect on playback, so a deck doesn't need any specialist playback hardware to benefit from a Dolby HX Pro recording or to play it back properly.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #3 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
3 head won’t mean much for playback only.

I have just one minor quibble here. A 2 head tape deck has to compromise between best design for recording (where a relatively wide head gap is ideal) and playback (where a much narrower gap is appropriate). A 3 head machine doesn't need to make this compromise. So for best possible playback quality, all other things being equal, a 3 head machine really ought to be better.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #4 –
I remember going through this exercise several years ago and did all my research back then.  Read reviews, etc..  I can't remember it all, but based on all that I bought the Denon DRM-740 which was highly praised and is a 3-head deck.  The other big name, but was WAAYY more expensive was the Nakamichi Dragon.  I'm sure there are others, and everything always comes up on eBay eventually.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #5 –
A quick word of warning regarding the Nakamichis. I can't remember which models off-hand, but some of them didn't follow the industry-standard EQ-curve for recording or playback and were overly "toppy" on the playback side with a consequently worse S/N ratio compared to many other cheaper decks on the market.

If the recordings aren't too "hot" then I'd recommend something along the lines of the TEAC V-1050 which is basically a Tascam studio deck without the whistles and bells or 19" rack-mount front. The playback electronics are capable of reproducing cassette content up to 21kHz (-3dB point relative to a -20dB reference recording with a Metal tape), assuming it's there in the first place.

I only mention "hot" recordings as being a problem due to a lack of headroom on the playback electronics. Otherwise, it's a mighty fine deck.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

PS I'd recommend NOT sourcing a cassette deck via Ebay. It's a fantastic way for an unscrupulous person to shift a deck with a worn out playback head as the buyer has no way of inspecting it prior to purchase. With the playback head for my TEAC costing in excess of £100, I'd hate to buy a deck for £100 on Ebay only to find that I had to spend another £100 on a new head for it.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #6 –
Thanks so far for the replies, guys.

AndyH-ha, the NAD and Sony units I linked unfortunately do not have dual capstans. I will not be moving the player while I record. Is there much of a benefit to it? Luckily, neither of them have Auto Reverse.

Valnar, I can't find the Denon DRM-740 to buy anywhere, not even ebay.

Slipstreem, thanks for the advice. Some of these tapes will be high quality studio stuff, some will be less than stellar demo tapes from 1991. I checked out the TEAC V-1050 and it appears to be a UK product, I'm in the USA and was only able to find one for sale on, you guessed it, ebay. However the seller swears it's refurbished and contains a warranty:

http://cgi.ebay.com/TEAC-V-1050-STEREO-CAS...Q2em118Q2el1247

Still scratchin' my head here but you guys have been a giant help so far.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #7 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
3 head won’t mean much for playback only.


Not entirely true ... on most 3-Head-Decks, the head gaps on PB and REC heads are optimised for their task and show different width values (wider for the rec head, narrower for the PB head).

But since any good deck is a 3-head-deck, this is kinda moot. EDIT: cliveb beat me to it ;-)

If you can get your hands on an older 3-motor dual capstan Nakamichi machine with easy azimuth adjustment, you could save some time and energy, especially when dealing with source material from different recorders.

Quote from: DaddyLongLegs on
AndyH-ha, the NAD and Sony units I linked unfortunately do not have dual capstans.


In my opinion, a dual capstan drive is a must because it is the only way to really ensure proper playback.

Normally, both capstans do have a slight difference in diameter or revs which will cause slight tape tensioning and therefore ensure the best possible tape transport.

An older AKAI GX machine (like GX-95) could be an interesting second-hand offer since these tapedeck's heads (the so-called GX heads) are glass coated and are believed to be extremely resistant against wear and ageing.
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #8 –
Damn, I can't seem to find a deck with 3 heads, dual capstan with easy azimuth adjustment, no autoreverse and single cassette for less than, well, a ridiculous sum of money

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #9 –
While you’ve been given advice about what should be best, there is another view to consider. I used to do a lot of cassette duplication of spoken audio material. Over the years I purchased a number of dual well decks in the price range of $200 to $250. They would wear out in a year or two and I would buy another. These were all single capstan, auto reverse because that is all that existed in my price range.

Using these decks, it was necessary to assure that the cassette pressure pads were always in good shape before starting, and I always avoided the auto reverse feature. The results were adequate for my needs. Since then, I’ve used the last of those dual decks to convert many hundreds of hours of spoken audio to mp3. Everyone has been satisfied with the results.

Once my good Denon deck went south, I also used the dual deck to recorded a number of commercially produced music cassettes, to make CD-Rs. The results were good enough to listen to and enjoy the music. The truth is that the majority of such mass produced cassette album don’t come all that close to matching a one off from a premium deck. If the cassettes were acceptable to begin with, the digitized version recorded from a less than premium deck may be acceptable too.

I recently bought two dual well decks from thrift stores, one for $10, the other for $5 (I more or less regularly purchase old LPs from thrift shops, so I’ve been in such stores quite a bit over the past six years). These two decks appeared to be in better condition than most I’ve looked at over the years, which is why I decided to take a chance on them. Both seem to function well. If there are many such stores in your area, you might consider looking through them. If the price is right, a few minutes of recording from a few cassettes will give you a reasonable idea of what you can expect.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #10 –
I'm no expert on cassette decks, but just would like to point out that decks, like old turntables, tend to go with somewhat different speed. As long as you record and playback on the same machine it doesn't matter but play the tape on another machine and the pitch and tempo can be noticeably different.

At least that is my personal experience, but maybe I was just unlucky with the couple of decks I was working with. These were not dual capstan, 3-head decks but of good medium quality, no cheap plastic "twin-decks".

The last deck I purchased (I still have it) was a Pioneer CT-S430S. In my subjective opinion it plays my old cassettes with more than sufficient sound quality. It would probably do what you want to do.

/sb

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #11 –
I liked the Yamaha KX 580SE.

It is also a 3 head system and employes Auto Tape tuning. The machine will send signals to the tape and record and sample them then adjust for best recording parameters. also the KX 580Se incorperates the Dolby S type noise reduction which was the last type of tape noise reduction developed for home cassette usage.
http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/mo.../Product_ID/326

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #12 –
Here's another vote for thrift stores (and yard/garage sales, swap meets, car boot sales, pawn shops...).  Around here, the thrift stores have heaps of cassette decks, usually for $10 to $25.  I looked for one that was reasonably good (not no-name or bottom of the line), and that looked clean and with minimal wear inside and out.  (I looked inside the cassette compartment for dust and dirt, and visible wear on the head(s) and pinch roller).  I passed up a beat-up Nakamichi, but eventually found a harman/kardon TD262 which looked good, had HX Pro, Dolby B & C, and EQ for metal/chrome/ln.  And it was recent enough that h/k had the manual on their website.  Price: $14.99 (for the whole deck, not the manual).

For capture, I plug it into a Behringer SRC-2496 as an outboard ADC, with Toslink to an Audigy 2 ZS (set to bit-accurate mode).  The SRC-2496 has a bar graph level display and input gain control, which is convenient for setting recording levels, and supports a range of sample rates and bit depths.

I think a brand like Ion is selling a USB cassette deck that you just plug into the computer, but I suspect you could get the same or better quality from a clean used deck and a USB audio interface like the ADSTech "Instant Music" for a fraction of the price.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #13 –
I had transferred a lot of tapes to computer, and I can suggest some things to watch when getting deck: get as newer deck as possible (not brand new, but the model from 90's will do fine), look out for Dolby B, C HX Pro (because when recorded with HX Pro, it should be played back with it), dual capstan to get steady playback, and auto tape selection. You can do with manual, can be convenient. Why not older decks, well because the rubber transports in the mechanism tend to get worn out and replacement is hard to find. In my life I had various decks, Nakamichi, AKAI, Denon, Tascam, and now I have Yamaha KX580, and it is a good deck - and I think if you get something in that class you will be very satisfied. It shouldn't be too expensive when buying used one.
You didn't said anything about the tapes - are they normal, chrome or metal, which NR was used taping (if any) - and it is a big difference. Normal tapes don't have high dynamic range nor frequency response, but they do have high noise  and if there werent any NR used when taping, ANY deck will do. Chrome and metal tapes (type II and IV) are much better, and for them you can go for better deck. Are there any TYPE III tapes (ferrochrome)? Decks with proper biases for them are hard to find. So...?
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What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #14 –
A nice feature (found on some Yamaha decks) is the ability to tweak the signal before it goes through the Dolby circuit. That circuit assumes a correctly matched reference level, and an old cassette usually has the high frequencies (especially) at a slightly lower level than when first recorded, hence the Dolby circuit doesn't line up properly with the recording, and removes more than it should. Tweaking the signal before the Dolby circuit helps to solve this problem. I think Yamaha called it "play trim" though their implementation wasn't perfect to my ears.

I wish there was a software Dolby B/C decoder, but I've never seen one. That would like you do a non-Dolby transfer, tweak it in Cool Edit, and then hit it with the appropriate Dolby noise reduction.

Cheers,
David.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #15 –
Quote from: hlloyge on
...when recorded with HX Pro, it should be played back with it... Are there any TYPE III tapes (ferrochrome)? Decks with proper biases for them are hard to find.
No. Dolby HX Pro and tape bias apply to the recording side of the process ONLY. Neither have anything to do with tape playback which is the topic of the original post. Ferrichrome (Type III) cassettes use the same 70us EQ setting as Chrome (Type II) cassettes for playback.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #16 –
After spending countless hours reading all the suggestions here (I appreciate them all) I have come down to two units:

The TEAC V-1050

http://cgi.ebay.com/TEAC-V-1050-STEREO-CAS...Q2em118Q2el1247

and some Yamaha that fits Nakamichi, whatever the hell that means:

http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAHA-PROFESSIONAL-CA...Q2em118Q2el1247

I am leaning towards the TEAC simply because it's TEAC recertified and the guy is offering a 90 day warranty; it's also a good amount cheaper than the Yamaha. However, the TEAC I believe is single capstan, the Yamaha is dual. That appears to be the only difference (at a $75 or so premium).

However I did find this at a local rummage store:

http://www.vintagecassette.com/Onkyo/TA-2000

They want $70 for it used naturally, but it isn't 3 heads and I have no idea if it's dual capstan. And I can't tell if ANY of the three I have easy azimuth adjustment. 

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #17 –
The Onkyo TA-2000 is a relatively poor performer compared to the TEAC V-1050 I'm afraid.

Onkyo TA-2000 Basic Specs...
Normal - 20Hz to 14kHz
Chrome - 20Hz to 15kHz
Metal - 20Hz to 16kHz (all +/-3dB @ -20dB reference level)
Wow & Flutter - 0.07% (WRMS)
Transport - Belt Drive

TEAC V-1050 Basic Specs...
Normal - 15Hz to 18kHz
Chrome - 15Hz to 20kHz
Metal - 15Hz to 21kHz (all +/-3dB @ -20dB reference level)
Wow & Flutter - 0.045% (WRMS)
Transport - Direct Drive

They're in two totally different leagues really.

The azimuth adjustment can be easily made in seconds on the TEAC with a watchmaker's screwdriver once you've removed the front door. It simply clips on and removes by sliding gently upwards when the door is open. I can't speak for the ease of access on the Onkyo.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #18 –
Thanks Slipstreem. I am a bit of a dullard when it comes to the stuff about khz and what-not, would you say the KX-1200U beats even the TEAC? Does it even have any azimuth adjustment? Google ain't helping me there.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #19 –
I'm not particularly familiar with Yamaha cassette decks, but I've managed to find the following info...

Metal - 20Hz to 22kHz (+/-3dB @ -20dB reference level)
Wow & Flutter - 0.03% (WRMS)
Mechanism - manufactured by Nakamichi (I think)

Even the 0.045% wow & flutter of the TEAC was/is significantly lower that any run-of-the-mill cassette deck, so whether or not the one area in which the Yamaha improves significantly over the TEAC really matters in the real-world is debatable.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #20 –
Welp, now I'm back at square one then because the TEAC does not have dual capstan.

/ripping hair out

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #21 –
The only difference the dual-capstan deck makes is to reduce the wow & flutter from inaudible to "more inaudible". I've never noticed the 0.045% wow & flutter on my TEAC V-1050 personally. The 0.045% figure is roughly on a par with a good direct-drive turntable. You don't hear many people complaining about those.

The figure quoted doesn't accurately reflect the figure you'll actually get anyway. There's always going to be some non-linear drag imposed upon the tape itself due to friction inside the cassette shell, the thickness of the tape isn't going to be perfectly uniform, and the unknown deck of unknown quality they were recorded on will have generated its own wow & flutter which will be permanently embedded in the recording. You'll also have wow & flutter on the source material from the original analogue tape recordings made in the studio (assuming it wasn't digital throughout) and more again if these specific cassette tapes were recorded from vinyl or dubbed from other cassette tapes.

It's obviously advantageous to have as low a wow & flutter figure as practically possible on the playback deck, but it very rapidly becomes a case of diminishing returns.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #22 –
So simply put, is it safe to say between the TEAC V-1050 and the Yamaha KX-1200U the TEAC has better sound quality? Again this is for a mix of professional studio tapes and old, worn demo tapes.

The only reason I am puzzled is because the Yamaha from what I read using google is very well regarded as an "audiophile's cassette deck" but I did not read such praise about the TEAC.

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #23 –
I've never listened to the Yamaha in question, so it's impossible for me to say. The TEAC in question shares the same mechanism and basic record/playback electronics as some of the 19" rack-mount studio-quality TASCAM cassette decks (the TASCAM 130 springs to mind) that were/are used in professional recording studios and radio stations. TASCAM are the professional audio division of TEAC, by the way.

The only way to find out for sure is to listen to both of them side-by-side in a blind test. As it's not practical for you to do this, I guess it comes down to whether you personally prefer the term "audiophile" or "studio-quality". They're both slightly ambiguous.

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

EDIT: I've found the full technical specifications for the TASCAM 130 HERE. It matches the spec in the back of the V-1050 owner's manual to the letter (except that the V-1050 doesn't have the pitch control).

What to look for in a cassette deck? (That's right, cassette)

Reply #24 –
Thanks man. I am still looking though because I'm reading that dual capstans are pretty much necessary for older tapes.

Is the Nakamichi 581 a unit that was their top of the line stuff? Or is it a unit from when they fell off? Someone near me in New York City is offering one for $240. It's been modified with a "tape monitor output" whatever the hell that means.