HydrogenAudio

Lossy Audio Compression => MP3 => MP3 - Tech => Topic started by: sehested on 2005-04-23 11:41:34

Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-23 11:41:34
iPod nano/mini 2G use clock speed optimisation to increase battery time.
VBR songs with a sudden increase in bitrate may cause the iPod nano/mini 2G to stutter as the clock speed is not increased fast enough to deal with the increased bitrate.

This has so far been observed for songs encoded with LAME --preset standard and is only true when not using the equaliser.

Examples of songs that stutters can be found here:
David Bowie - Five Years (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33486&view=findpost&p=292855)
Nine Inch Nails - Right Where it Belongs (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33486&view=findpost&p=300284)

For Five Years the clock speed hovers around 24 jumping to 30 when the stuttering begins. Using the equaliser the clock speed hovers around 36 throughout the song and no stuttering occurs.

Further observations:
- this problem is related to the iPod nano/mini 2G but one sample has been found that makes the 4G Color iPod stutter
- problem with iPod mini software 1.3, 1.4, and 1.4.1
- problem with iPod nano software 1.0, and 1.1
- iPod mini 2G do not use optimisation when connected to a computer
- iPod mini 2G do use optimisation, both when using its battery and when connected to a powered dock that is not connected to a computer
- problem go away when using an EQ setting different from flat/off
- only safe EQ setting to use is Bass Reducer / Treble Reducer in order to avoid distortion of songs with a high recording level
- problem do not occur when using iTunes MP3 encoder
- problem do not occur when LAME VBR song do not contain 320 kbps: options --preset standard -B 256
- problem do not always occur at the same spot in the subtle songs listed below
- iPod mini 1G clock speed for Five Years hoovers aroung 31 rising to 33 where it was 24 / 30 for the 2G
- iPod mini optimisation may be turned off (I don't now how to provoke this) and require a reset of the iPod to turn it back on.
- for the 4G color iPod only the sample with NIN - Right Where it Belongs stutters, even with the EQ set to Bass Reducer. Acoustic EQ setting makes the problem go away.

Songs having the problem (obvious):
- Johnny Cash - A Satisfied Mind
- David Bowie - Five Years
- Nine Inch Nails - Right Where it Belongs
- Cake - Nugget @ 26s

Songs having the problem (subtle):
- Eminem - Drug Ballad
- Eminem - Kill You
- U2 - Miracle Drug
- Musica XM - AWS Hope Xm cut

Album songs not having the problem:
- Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
- Styx - Pieces of Eight
- Guns N' Roses - Illusions I
- Shirley Bassey - Greatest Hits/This is my Life

[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Edited: Updated list of songs and albums.
Edited: iPod mini 1G do use speed optimisation. My iPod mini 1G was stuck at a clock speed of 80 and required a reset forcing it to use speed optimisation.
Edited: One user with iPod mini 2G was unable to reproduce problem.
Edited: Work around described
Edited: Added NIN
Edited: Added Cake
Edited: Updated for iPod mini software 1.4
Edited: Added Johnny Cash and updated observations
Edited: Added information about 4G color iPod stuttering
Edited: iPod nano stutters as bad as iPod mini 2G
Edited: Updated for iPod mini software 1.4.1 / iPod nano software 1.1
[/span]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: The Belgain on 2005-04-23 12:12:27
Wow... that's kind of a big bug.

Should be reasonably easy for Apple to fix with a firmware update though.

I've got a 1G iPod mini, and no problems at all for me...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-04-23 13:16:26
All new iPods use variable clock speed, but there were some speculation that the mini uses the brand new ARM chip that haven't officially gone into mass production yet. But yeah, it should be easy to fix if they are aware of it.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-04-23 15:10:11
all my VBR tracks play fine on my (technically 2G) 30GB ipod photo... except some on Nine Inch Nails - With Teeth. the 192k worked flawlessly, but the VBR rip stutters every once in a while. I thought maybe it was an Xfering problem, but I re-upped it several times and the problem still persisted. . . interesting . and it was encoded with lame 3.90.3



that , and the original mp3s are flawless -- no skips on 'puter playback
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-23 17:10:20
Quote
All new iPods use variable clock speed, but there were some speculation that the mini uses the brand new ARM chip that haven't officially gone into mass production yet. But yeah, it should be easy to fix if they are aware of it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292873"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have provided feedback to Apple and posted it on iPodLounge, so eventually I hope Apple will become aware of the problem and fix it.

How much of a problem it is is not yet clear as so far only LAME aps have been tested.

It might be that I have just scratched the surface and the problem turns bigger when investigated.

Anyway it is clearly a trade-off between battery time and minimising the risk for stuttering. In the current marketing war it might be that Apple will prioritise outstanding battery performance over occasional stuttering of a few songs, as long as the songs are not in AAC.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-04-23 17:16:12
Have you checked if you can reproduce with VBR files encoded with iTunes?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-23 17:33:44
Quote
Have you checked if you can reproduce with VBR files encoded with iTunes?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292904"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No. Anyway lame aps is the dominant format also used by several download services.

If I where to use an iTunes specific format I would chose AAC.

However I have checked ALAC, which is also a VBR format, and there was no stuttering.

My priority now will be to listen to music in lame aps to identify the magnitude of the problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-04-23 18:16:07
Quote
No. Anyway lame aps is the dominant format also used by several download services.


Yea, but if it happens with their own encoder as well, it would probably get a higher priority.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-04-23 23:08:34
Quote
Further observations:
- iPod mini 1G do not use optimisation and clock speed is always 80 when playing
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292861"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that's wrong. I own an 1G iPod mini and the clock speed jumps up and down as well while playing. If you start to listen or skip a song it will jump to 80 for a few seconds.

Anyway, couldn't you just prepare a sample...let's say digital silence followed by some part that will make LAME to use 320kbps? Maybe --preset extreme could help to create such a scenario...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-23 23:43:12
Quote
I own an 1G iPod mini and the clock speed jumps up and down as well while playing. If you start to listen or skip a song it will jump to 80 for a few seconds.
That's interesting. I would have expected the same, but the iPod mini 1G I tested did not change from 80 on the sample provided. Software version was 1.3.
Quote
Anyway, couldn't you just prepare a sample...let's say digital silence followed by some part that will make LAME to use 320kbps? Maybe --preset extreme could help to create such a scenario...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292948"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What would the point be? I already provided a sample that demonstrates the problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: jrkagan on 2005-04-24 00:09:55
I have a 4G 20GB iPod and I'm pretty sure its processors change speed dynamically during playback (see this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipod#Hardware)), but I've never once encountered a stutter in the 5 months I've owned it.  Almost all of my 1,500+ song library is encoded in LAME -preset-extreme via EAC.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-04-24 00:18:20
Quote
Quote
I own an 1G iPod mini and the clock speed jumps up and down as well while playing. If you start to listen or skip a song it will jump to 80 for a few seconds.
That's interesting. I would have expected the same, but the iPod mini 1G I tested did not change from 80 on the sample provided. Software version was 1.3.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292958"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

try to reset your iPod using the ipod_updater software...or you could also (un)-cap your iPod...this makes the iPod loading the defaults, which should fix the problem. I sometimes have that problem too - and I'm using the latest firmware as well. I usally notice it when my battery is already drained after 4 hours...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-04-24 00:22:38
Quote
I have a 4G 20GB iPod and I'm pretty sure its processors change speed dynamically during playback (see this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipod#Hardware)), but I've never once encountered a stutter in the 5 months I've owned it.  Almost all of my 1,500+ song library is encoded in LAME -preset-extreme via EAC.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292965"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

nope your iPod should do fine as well as the 1G iPod mini (even though they both shift clock speeds). There seems to be a problem with the new chips Apple uses for their recent models that need less CPU power and therefore result a longer playback time...as far as I know only 2G iPod mini and 2G iPod Photo use these new chips...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MoSXS on 2005-04-24 00:51:06
My 2G 4GB mini is filled with --aps MP3s (ripped using EAC's secure mode) and I haven't had any problems with stuttering. I listen to all kinds of different music too. I have everything from Alicia Keys to Fear Factory on my iPod, so theres a variety of complexity and types of music. Not a single song has skipped or stuttered.

I downloaded the sample posted in the other thread. So far I've listened to it about 6 times and it's played flawlessly every time. I sent it over to my friend with a 6GB 2G mini and hes had no problems with it either.

I hate to say this, but I think it's just a problem with the original poster's iPod. So far I've seen 2 iPods play it correctly that, according to the original poster, should have stuttered at least once.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Lucas on 2005-04-24 00:51:32
my 2G ipod mini skips with 192k cbr songs too.. very randomly also.. so I don't think it's just the bitrate.. some frames might be harder to decode than others even if they're the same size, right? if not, I don't get it.

Where do you check the clock speed?

edited: typo
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-24 09:15:13
Quote
My 2G 4GB mini is filled with --aps MP3s (ripped using EAC's secure mode) and I haven't had any problems with stuttering. I listen to all kinds of different music too. I have everything from Alicia Keys to Fear Factory on my iPod, so theres a variety of complexity and types of music. Not a single song has skipped or stuttered.
Most songs seems not to be affected by this problem. I'm updating the original post as I found new examples.

Quote
I downloaded the sample posted in the other thread. So far I've listened to it about 6 times and it's played flawlessly every time. I sent it over to my friend with a 6GB 2G mini and hes had no problems with it either.

I hate to say this, but I think it's just a problem with the original poster's iPod. So far I've seen 2 iPods play it correctly that, according to the original poster, should have stuttered at least once.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=292970")

It's not just one iPod mini 2G that has the problem: [a href="http://forums.ipodlounge.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93057]HelloWhat[/url]

Are you sure clock speed optimisation was in use when you played back the sample?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-24 09:40:41
Quote
my 2G ipod mini skips with 192k cbr songs too.. very randomly also.. so I don't think it's just the bitrate.. some frames might be harder to decode than others even if they're the same size, right? if not, I don't get it.
Quote
Could you please provide a sample of a CBR song that skips?
Where do you check the clock speed?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=292971")
To view the clock speed of an iPod (Windows version) do the following:
Connect iPod to your computer
Launch Windows Explorer
Change folder settings to show hidden files and folders. Also don't hide file type of known files
Create an empty file named "_show_speed" in iPods iPod_Control\Device folder
[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33486&view=findpost&p=293010]Picture of Windows Explorer displaying show speed configuration[/url]
Disconnect the iPod
Set Date & Time setting "Time in title" to On


[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Side Note: Is there a simple way to place pictures in posts, when you don't have your own web server?[/span]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-24 15:59:37
Quote
try to reset your iPod using the ipod_updater software...or you could also (un)-cap your iPod...this makes the iPod loading the defaults, which should fix the problem. I sometimes have that problem too - and I'm using the latest firmware as well. I usally notice it when my battery is already drained after 4 hours...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292967"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the advice. 

After launching iPod Updater and reseting the iPod speed optimisation came into effect. 

I have updated my original post to reflect this new information.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Lucas on 2005-04-24 17:05:12
I spoke too fast.. I transfered one of the (many) songs that skip on my iPod, checked it with winamp, and it was a VBR file.. it was encoded my me, so it could only be -aps. I thought these tracks were from another much older 'batch' I encoded at 192k cbr.. seems I was wrong

The point is I just checked again and it skips. Thanks for that _show_speed thing, very useful  when playing these files the cpu varies from 27 to 30.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Lucas on 2005-04-24 17:23:51
I've found a part of a song that causes my iPod to skip. Always does it, it isn't random. I've uploaded it here:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....71&#entry293071 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33486&st=0&p=293071&#entry293071)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MoSXS on 2005-04-24 22:24:07
Quote
Quote
My 2G 4GB mini is filled with --aps MP3s (ripped using EAC's secure mode) and I haven't had any problems with stuttering. I listen to all kinds of different music too. I have everything from Alicia Keys to Fear Factory on my iPod, so theres a variety of complexity and types of music. Not a single song has skipped or stuttered.
Most songs seems not to be affected by this problem. I'm updating the original post as I found new examples.

Quote
I downloaded the sample posted in the other thread. So far I've listened to it about 6 times and it's played flawlessly every time. I sent it over to my friend with a 6GB 2G mini and hes had no problems with it either.

I hate to say this, but I think it's just a problem with the original poster's iPod. So far I've seen 2 iPods play it correctly that, according to the original poster, should have stuttered at least once.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=292970")

It's not just one iPod mini 2G that has the problem: [a href="http://forums.ipodlounge.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93057]HelloWhat[/url]

Are you sure clock speed optimisation was in use when you played back the sample?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=293007"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Clock speed optimisation was on. Infact, I even reset it just to make sure. I've been listening to both songs posted in the other thread for about the last 10 minutes or so. Constant repeat. No stuttering whatsoever.

The clockspeed generally hung around 22-28MHz for both songs. Strangely enough, I tried a 128kbps AAC song, and the clockspeed is higher at around 28-30MHz. hmm.

Anyway, no stuttering for me.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-24 22:47:07
Quote
Clock speed optimisation was on. Infact, I even reset it just to make sure. I've been listening to both songs posted in the other thread for about the last 10 minutes or so. Constant repeat. No stuttering whatsoever.
So not all 2G mini's will stutter. I will update my original post to this new information.
Quote
The clockspeed generally hung around 22-28MHz for both songs. Strangely enough, I tried a 128kbps AAC song, and the clockspeed is higher at around 28-30MHz. hmm.
It is commonly known that AAC use more juice than MP3 to decode:
MP3 or AAC for iPod Battery Life (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=28651)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-04-25 12:43:10
i was listening to ipod photo last nite, and it skipped on a weezer song. i replayed it , and it skipped exactly where i thought it did before. and it was a flawless rip -- again, no skips on 'puter playback. this must be fiXed!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-04-25 13:30:35
Quote
i was listening to ipod photo last nite, and it skipped on a weezer song. i replayed it , and it skipped exactly where i thought it did before. and it was a flawless rip -- again, no skips on 'puter playback. this must be fiXed!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=293245")

Please provide direct [a href="http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html]feedback[/url] to Apple. The more complaints, the higher priority they will give the issue.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MugFunky on 2005-04-25 17:39:26
this sounds to me like a simple buffering problem - like what you'd get with winamp running on a pentium 100 while something else was running (hehhe... oldskoo).  if you increase the buffering, the file played back smoothly.

i wonder if that's controllable on the pod?  i don't own one and probably never will (they're too fashionable for a geek like me to have in good conscience ) unless apple implement gapless playback and perhaps PCM recording to give a use to those big hard disks they have.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-04-27 03:55:07
i just used the URL u gave me and told apple... hopefully a fix will be out soon, hopefully they care, and hopefully its not a hardware problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: NeoRenegade on 2005-04-27 18:50:30
So much for Apple's claims that the I-Pod supports MP3-VBR.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-04-29 23:13:06
i wonder why we are the first to complain.. what are you going to do about it?

edit - i think i am going to transcode to 128 AAC
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-04-29 23:26:03
i think downgrading from 1.1 to 1.0 fixes the problem... i will report back once i've had extensive testing
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-04-30 14:00:51
i havent given it *insane* testing, but try rolling back your software to that of 2005-1-11 if possible with 2G minis... did the trick with my ipod photo.. at least it doesnt skip where it did before. will report back after days of listening

EDIT - nevermind i heard it skip, this really sucks, i think i might just sell it or take it back if theres no fix soon

EDIT 2- i'm sending it back and hopefully the replacement will fix it.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-02 04:03:35
is this not an issue with 1G ipod photo 40GB and 60GB?

if so thats bizarre, because both 1G and 2G afaik clock at 15 hours. right?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Pizzi on 2005-05-03 13:11:07
I'm encountering exactly the same problems with my iPod Mini 2G 6 GB.
I also have the stutter problem and I did an firmware update, hoping that would solve the problem. After updating I tested the Mini in the dock (which I normally only use for connecting the iPod to the PC for updating my music libary) with some 'problem' mp3's ... no stuttering any more  .... I thought  ... because after that the stuttering was 'reintroduced' while travelling by train (when the iPod is playing from battery).

Very complex and dynamic music (like Tool  ) stutters quite often and that really sucks, because I like my iPod very much and I think there isn't any good alternative for an iPod (flashplayers, Creative, etc. ... yuk  ), but an iPod with this problem also isn't heaven   

I've just filled in the form 'iPod Feedback' and i really hope Apple is gonna solve this problem, because it's very annoying.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grug on 2005-05-05 14:59:03
It's not specific to the Mini.

I get the same problem with my 40GB 4G iPod, as do several people on a forum I frequent.

One thing one of them noticed...if you use the Rock EQ preset...the stutters go away. Other EQs do not have this effect. Can someone try it with their Mini?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-06 09:45:46
Quote
It's not specific to the Mini.

I get the same problem with my 40GB 4G iPod, as do several people on a forum I frequent.

One thing one of them noticed...if you use the Rock EQ preset...the stutters go away. Other EQs do not have this effect. Can someone try it with their Mini?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=295426"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That works! 

When using an EQ setting other than flat/off the clock speed increases to 35 and stuttering is no longer a problem.

That's a good work around while waiting for Apple to sort out their problem.

Only downside is that it will be a bit more battery hungry.

I have updated the original post to reflect this new information.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-11 21:36:18
cool thanks, only problem is that i returned my ipod to apple for repair and they said it passed the diagnostics, thus they didn't do anything to fix it.

DARN APPLE DARN
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-11 22:30:47
this is cool that it works with rock eq, but sort of lame too. i dont really like this equalizer. but if its the only way....
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: jrkagan on 2005-05-12 05:10:17
Quote
...
I get the same problem with my 40GB 4G iPod, as do several people on a forum I frequent.
...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=295426"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So wait...does this indicate that there is a processor difference between the 20GB and 40GB 4G iPods?  As I mentioned previously, I have a 20GB 4G iPod, nearly my entire library is in LAME 3.96.1 -present extreme (some standard), and I do most of my listening with the equalizer set to "Off" (especially when playing through my main stereo system)...and I have never once experienced the stutter you all described.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-15 22:00:47
hmmm, any way to fix this besides using the equalizers?

this really really is beginning to piss me off. it has to be a software problem , right?

EDIT- sehested , is there any thing you can do ? you are pretty good with ipods.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-15 23:18:22
Quote
hmmm, any way to fix this besides using the equalizers?

this really really is beginning to piss me off. it has to be a software problem , right?

EDIT- sehested , is there any thing you can do ? you are pretty good with ipods.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=297897"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The only two work arounds I know of are:
- Use equaliser
- Transcode to AAC

Eventually I beleive Apple will come with a software update that will fix the problem.

However until then I meditate and pray that the force will be strong in me - allowing me to keep my cool.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-15 23:23:00
yeah if it isn't fixed in the next software update,  i will raise hell (i.e sell my photo, and probably just buya  1G 60GB for a bit more; cross my fingers that one wont have the problem either)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: ChiGung on 2005-05-16 00:04:11
If making fresh vbr mp3s, I see some options which might help,
Latest versions of Lame can use 128 as minimum bitrate for some presets, but adding -b 128 to be sure and -F to stop it dropping to 32Kbs for silences could help.
- This issue is surely to do with power management and 32 kbs frames at the start of a track could be misleading the decoder.
Quality should not be hurt by this, and although the files will be bloated slightly, the bit reservoir could recycle alot of the spare bits.

Also at high bitrates like 192 and 224, 256, vbrs advantage over cbr becomes very marginal imbo.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-16 10:56:33
Quote
If making fresh vbr mp3s, I see some options which might help,
Latest versions of Lame can use 128 as minimum bitrate for some presets, but adding -b 128 to be sure and -F to stop it dropping to 32Kbs for silences could help.
- This issue is surely to do with power management and 32 kbs frames at the start of a track could be misleading the decoder.
Quality should not be hurt by this, and although the files will be bloated slightly, the bit reservoir could recycle alot of the spare bits.

Also at high bitrates like 192 and 224, 256, vbrs advantage over cbr becomes very marginal imbo.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=297914"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When using David Bowie - Five Years the test results are:
lame --preset standard              : 165kbps - clock speed 24 - Obvious stuttering
lame --preset standard -b 128 -F : 169kbps - clock speed 24 - Obvious stuttering
lame --preset standard -b 160 -F : 180kbps - clock speed 24 - Stuttering
lame --preset standard -b 192 -F : 198kbps - clock speed 24 - Stuttering
lame -b 192                              : 192kbps - clock speed 24 - No stuttering
lame -b 256                              : 256kbps - clock speed 28 - No stuttering
lame -b 320                              : 320kbps - clock speed 30 - No stuttering
lame --preset standard -B 192    : 150kbps - clock speed 24 - No stuttering
lame --preset standard -B 256    : 160kbps - clock speed 24 - No stuttering

Conclusion:
There must be a jump to 320 kbps in the VBR that the iPod can't handle by increasing its clock speed fast enough from 24.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: ChiGung on 2005-05-16 11:30:54
You do seem to have located the problem, Im surprised the -b 128 -F had little effect. It certainly Looks like Apples' bug rather than Lames unexpected agility.
Apple or someone who can dissasemble the firmware could fix this with a 'single byte hack' to up the power mode at 256 to 320's speed, with just a tiny hit in power drain...

Edit:
or does it look like, for vbrs the clock speed is static at 24 whatever the the range of bitrates :puzzled: Maybe the readout is not to be trusted, because there is a small observed improvement in > -b 160 but no observed clock speedup.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-16 22:13:23
I got annoyed by the skips. selling my 30gb with case for 325 shipped to someone...

great for me, i only lost  30 bucks after a month of usage.

it was 334 shipped with educational discount and 20 for case. so 354 total originally.


and yes i told them about the glitch, buyer doesnt care, he rips with iTUNES anyways

contemplating 1G ipod photo 40GB/60GB or 2G mini (that has been thoroughly inspected and doesnt have the skip) 4GB/6GB
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-05-16 22:31:28
Quote
I got annoyed by the skips. selling my 30gb with case for 325 shipped to someone...

great for me, i only lost  30 bucks after a month of usage.

it was 334 shipped with educational discount and 20 for case. so 354 total originally.


and yes i told them about the glitch, buyer doesnt care, he rips with iTUNES anyways

contemplating 1G ipod photo 40GB/60GB or 2G mini (that has been thoroughly inspected and doesnt have the skip) 4GB/6GB
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=298153"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You can be pretty confident Apple will fix it soon, as issues like this have occurred before and has been remedied by a firmware update. You also know that it dissapears with the EQ turned on, right?

In any case, it's not something that happens to just a few models. All 4G's, photo's and 2G minis seem to have it 
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-16 22:37:38
Quote
contemplating 1G ipod photo 40GB/60GB or 2G mini (that has been thoroughly inspected and doesnt have the skip) 4GB/6GB
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=298153"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is nonsense.  The 2G mini stutters for sure.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-16 22:38:54
it is truly ALL of them ? i dont think so. as stated before by a 4G user, he has never had a skip. its a software problem, but there's just quite a few unlucky units that have the stinkware in full effect.

oh well, either way, I want a 1G photo . axxories are the way to go; it really adds to the product's value and I can get a 60GB sealed for 393 shipped (Not ebay either)

edit- if im wrong, and all the versions stated skip with vbr, i'll sit on the purchase until (if) it is fixed.

i sent my ipod in stating the problem, and they said there was no problem. the techs didnt even acknowledge it. at the very least they could've said apple is aware and will be fixing it with software, but this isn't enough reason to give you a new unit.

but noooo, none of that.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-22 18:37:26
just loaded up Nine Inch Nails - Right Where It Belongs (towards end is the major skip-test) on my dad's 2G 4GB mini, and it skipped

if no fix comes out in the next 2 months, i'm going to buy a non-apple DAP. this is unacceptable and i'm getting impatient (although my 3G 15GB is suffice)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-05-22 19:16:54
Quote
if no fix comes out in the next 2 months, i'm going to buy a non-apple DAP. this is unacceptable and i'm getting impatient (although my 3G 15GB is suffice)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=299499"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I remember when the 3G iPods were released, a loud clicking sound happened between each song and the left/right channel swapped each time you hit pause. A couple of months later and a firmware update fixed it completely. The same thing will probably happen here as well (as long as they know about it) 
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-22 23:08:33
Quote
(as long as they know about it) 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=299506"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not really sure what is the most effective way to convey the problem to Apple.

The three "official" channels to report problems, that I know of are:
- Direct feedback through the Apple web site
- Posting the problem on Apple's discussion forums
- Contacting support by phone and demanding a solution, insisting them to report the problem to their second line support.

The problem with all three are that Apple do not provide any feedback or acceptance of the reported problem.


My personal experience with Apple support:

When I contacted Apple support by phone, they didn't know what LAME was. Their reaction was a shoulder shug as he suggestion to use the built-in mp3 encoder. After the supporter had conferred with someone else, he suggested that I visited iPodLounge or Apple discussion forums to look for a solution.

I informed that I was probably the first to discover the problem and had already posted on both forums. I suggested that he could get full details about the problem by searching for stuttering on these forums. I insisted, arguing that LAME has been used to encode the majority of mp3 files floating around in the world, that Apple should provide a software update that will fix the problem.

The supporter had to discuss the problem yet again with a collegue / superior. He promised to bring it to the developers attention and informed me that the developers do visit the Apple Discussion forums as well as gets the Bug report feedback.

The call took altogether about 30 minutes.

The only feedback I got was a case number... 


Anyway I still beleive Apple will eventually fix this problem, so I can't wait for the annoncement of the next update. 

@Busemann: I sure hope the right people know about it...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-05-22 23:17:32
Quote
Their reaction was a shoulder shug as he suggestion to use the built-in mp3 encoder.


So it doesn't happen with the iTunes encoder?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-22 23:44:42
Quote
So it doesn't happen with the iTunes encoder?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=299559"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have tested the iTunes mp3 encoder at the following settings:
- MP3 128kbps VBR Highest Quality
- MP3 192kbps VBR Highest Quality
- MP3 256kbps VBR Highest Quality

Only with LAME is it possible to create the problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-05-24 01:55:02
i just bought an iriver h320 for 210  used shipped.

i had one before but i had to sell it cos i needed money  this is purrrrfect
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-05-24 22:31:44
Quote
just loaded up Nine Inch Nails - Right Where It Belongs (towards end is the major skip-test) on my dad's 2G 4GB mini, and it skipped

if no fix comes out in the next 2 months, i'm going to buy a non-apple DAP. this is unacceptable and i'm getting impatient (although my 3G 15GB is suffice)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=299499")

The stuttering / skipping on that song is terrible! 

I have added the lossless sample and updated my initial post:
[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33486&view=findpost&p=300284]Nine Inch Nails - Right Where it Belongs[/url]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Faelix on 2005-05-25 01:26:35
Just a hint:

Searching about general AAC compatibility on iPod, I've found this topic (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=20240) about Nero AAC skipping, and, although the discussion wasn't thoroughly conclusive, there were indications about iTunes tagging system. By any chance, could VBR stuttering be aliviated if iTunes had the opportunity of analysing the music files before upoloading to iPod?

P.S.: Sorry if this is B.S., I don't have an iPod, but I'd like one very much, and I'm very sensitive about such bug reports.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-06-19 21:40:59
Having just acquired a 2nd gen mini, I loaded on some of the test samples from sehested's original post. Thought my results would be of interest.

Results so far:

Five_Years_20s.mp3 - slight stutter just prior to file's end (possibly due to the mp3 slice?)

Five_Years_LAME.mp3 - plays perfectly

AWS_HOPE_XM_cut.mp3 - one tiny gap in playback around the 14 second mark

EQ was off for all of these tests.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-06-19 23:18:03
Quote
Having just acquired a 2nd gen mini, I loaded on some of the test samples from sehested's original post. Thought my results would be of interest.

Results so far:

Five_Years_20s.mp3 - slight stutter just prior to file's end (possibly due to the mp3 slice?)

Five_Years_LAME.mp3 - plays perfectly

AWS_HOPE_XM_cut.mp3 - one tiny gap in playback around the 14 second mark

EQ was off for all of these tests.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=307368"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What about NIN? The stuttering is quite obvious at the end on that song.

Are you sure that the clock speed was not 80 all along?

If your iPod was connected to the computer it would stay at 80. Also sometimes the clock speed gets stuck on 80 and speed optimisation isn't used. To rule out this from happening you can reset your iPod by pressing and holding MENU and select for a couple of seconds.

I have personally checked two 2G minis that both have the problem.

Eventually Apple will release new iPod mini software that should fix the problem. My 2G mini came with version 1.3. What version are you running?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-06-20 00:29:46
Quote
What about NIN? The stuttering is quite obvious at the end on that song.

Are you sure that the clock speed was not 80 all along?

If your iPod was connected to the computer it would stay at 80. Also sometimes the clock speed gets stuck on 80 and speed optimisation isn't used. To rule out this from happening you can reset your iPod by pressing and holding MENU and select for a couple of seconds.

I have personally checked two 2G minis that both have the problem.

Eventually Apple will release new iPod mini software that should fix the problem. My 2G mini came with version 1.3. What version are you running?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=307383"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi sehested,

Thanks for the info. You're right... I just encoded the NIN file and loaded it on the ipod. I get an obvious breakup at 10s, again at 19s, and a bit right at the end of the file. By far this is the worst of the batch.

My firmware is also 1.3, fresh out of the box, running on battery, no EQ. I did a reset to double-check and all results are the same.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: borndevil on 2005-06-25 13:45:57
hi... I sent my iPod in service (for this and a wheel problem)
I had it replaced yesterday. this morning I tried new and was orrible discover that same problem was there!! I thought about use of goPod, something wrong in these bytes that changes (w/no chance to take it back)...
now I discover this thread and wooo that's enough for me as I was thinking about a ipod window-falling..

yes, that's a bad thing, iTunes encoder even with best setting doesn't sound as lame 3.90, so I think it's better place the EQ in some likely setting and we'll see.

sehested: thank you, you saved my new pod from burning in deep flames...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-06-25 14:45:37
Quote
sehested: thank you, you saved my new pod from burning in deep flames...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=308783"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You're welcome
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: borndevil on 2005-06-25 18:53:41
some reported EVERY sample I sent (mine too... and yours) are PERFECT on iPOD Mini 2G... you know what means...

...is changed something... chip... some component... some internal algorithm...
ours are really "different"... I think about some cost-reduction or other contracts with suppliers and different chips.

italian forum is alerted now.
whe must stay united because something is changed inside.
if it's an update problem well... it will be fast... if not...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: hyper84 on 2005-06-27 17:17:40
Here is one more confirmation of the stated problem with the NIN sample.  Played fine in the dock (lame 3.96.1 --preset standard).  When disconnected, however, the mini 2g stuttered badly.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-06-28 17:47:25
Apple just released iPod Updater 2005-06-26 with iPod mini software 1.4.

The stuttering issue remains... 

They have known the issue and have yet failed to address it.

Makes you wonder if they are rather content with the fact that LAME has compatibility issues with iPod mini. 

I'm going to let them know once more at the Apple Discussion forum
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2005-06-28 18:43:45
I finally am able to confirm this issue (I tried out those audio files the other night).

Did not try the new iPod update, but it sounds like it did not fix the problem
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: borndevil on 2005-06-28 21:24:10
yes
update didn't fix..............
....
...
..
.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: hyper84 on 2005-06-28 22:51:09
Hey i have great news!  More bad samples!  Green Day - Brain Stew and Jimi Hendrix - Wild Thing (off the Voodoo Child collection).  Brain Stew stutters at the beginning and Wild Thing stutters at 4:44 into the song.  I guess it's well confirmed by now though, but you may have wanted to know...  Has anyone had problems with vbr aac similar to the ones with lame?  I am going to run these samples with nero's vbr aac transparency setting to see if they still stutter.  I'll report back soon.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-06-28 23:18:35
the problem doesn't occur if the EQ is on, right?!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-06-29 05:41:19
Quote
Apple just released iPod Updater 2005-06-26 with iPod mini software 1.4.

The stuttering issue remains... 

They have known the issue and have yet failed to address it.

Makes you wonder if they are rather content with the fact that LAME has compatibility issues with iPod mini. 

I'm going to let them know once more at the Apple Discussion forum
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=309537"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Arrrg.... was really hoping this problem would be "cured" today but this is not surprising. Well, I guess that will give us more time to file bug reports before the next update. 

sehested,
Do you know what causes the clock speed to sometimes get stuck on 80? I noticed my battery level declining faster than it should the past few days, and when the problematic LAME aps files played perfectly I realized that clock speed optimization was off. Not sure how this happened.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-06-29 06:51:54
Quote
the problem doesn't occur if the EQ is on, right?!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=309621"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right. 

But, I personally prefer the flat EQ and to choose another EQ setting will fail to reproduce the sound as I want to hear it.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-06-29 06:54:05
Quote
sehested,
Do you know what causes the clock speed to sometimes get stuck on 80? I noticed my battery level declining faster than it should the past few days, and when the problematic LAME aps files played perfectly I realized that clock speed optimization was off. Not sure how this happened.
Happens for me too occassionally, but I still haven't figured out what causes it.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: hyper84 on 2005-06-29 06:55:21
nero vbr aac seems to be fine with the problematic songs.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grug on 2005-06-29 12:12:47
I installed iPod Linux on my 4G iPod and it handles every --aps I threw at it without any pops or clicks or stutters at all. I can't wait until it matures a little more.

And as of tonight iPod Linux works on 2nd gen Minis.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: hyper84 on 2005-07-02 08:12:47
Quote
I installed iPod Linux on my 4G iPod and it handles every --aps I threw at it without any pops or clicks or stutters at all. I can't wait until it matures a little more.

And as of tonight iPod Linux works on 2nd gen Minis.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=309770"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know, but I'm sure that when running ipod Linux the clock speed on the ipod runs higher, so no you wouldn't have this problem.  But it does play flac
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-02 20:13:18
I wonder if the "new" 20gb 'color' ipods have the skipping problem, and how about your ipod photo 1g 60gb you have? did u try updating that and see if the problem was still there ? thx
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Fuchal on 2005-07-03 00:19:01
I have a 40GB 4th gen iPod and I have yet to run into any problem files.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-09 17:19:08
It's good to hear that I'm not the only one with these problems.

There really doesn't seem to be much information online about this topic.

I have a 2G ipod mini, I've only experienced the skipping on about 3 of the 750 songs that I've got loaded onto the ipod and they are all VBR.  I've also noticed that on these three songs the rock equalization trick does not work for me, the files still skip. 

Hopefully we will see a fix to this problem soon!

In the meantime I'll be encoding using --alt-preset cbr 192
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-09 18:41:10
Quote
I've also noticed that on these three songs the rock equalization trick does not work for me, the files still skip. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312024"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If using EQ doesn't cure the problem on your three songs, you might be experiencing a different problem.

You can use the test samples in this thread to test if your 2G iPod mini has the stuttering problem.

What are the three songs that are giving you problems?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-09 20:46:38
Well, it really does seem to be the same problem to me.

The songs i'm having problems with are...

Fiery Furnaces - Single Again (only skips once, pretty minor stuttering)
Architeture in Helsinki - Frenchy, I'm Faking (this one's really bad, i can't get through the song without skipping it)

All of the files are VBR... I even decoded the mp3's back to wav's, then re-encoded them back to CBR, the CBR files play just fine. (i know this is terrible for quality, but it's just a test) So for now, that's my solution.

I'm still using the version 1.3 firmware for my ipod, is it possible that the eq trick only works with version 1.4?

i've noticed that in some instances that if i delete a skipping song and add it again that the skip is gone, it worked for "Elliot Smith - I didn't understand" which is encoded at a CBR of 320.... i've tried this numerous times with the two songs listed above but it just doesn't work for them

actually, this is getting really annoying... i've dumped my entire library from the ipod and loaded it back on again.... skips disappear from some songs but show up in others that were fine. grrrrr
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-07-09 23:23:46
Quote
I'm still using the version 1.3 firmware for my ipod, is it possible that the eq trick only works with version 1.4?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312070"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

no, version 1.4 doesn't address any of that and the EQ thing also works with 1.3...be aware that upgrading to 1.4 will stop your iPod from updating Smart Playlist on the go...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-10 00:16:48
has anyone tried this?

http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/ (http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-07-10 11:51:41
Quote
has anyone tried this?

http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/ (http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312114"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you don't need this tool unless you got your files from dubious sources...it also destroys the LAME-Header, so it shouldn't be used unless there's a real problem, which won't happen with files you rip and encode properly using one of LAME's presets.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-10 17:50:09
Quote
Quote
has anyone tried this?

http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/ (http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=312114")

you don't need this tool unless you got your files from dubious sources...it also destroys the LAME-Header, so it shouldn't be used unless there's a real problem, which won't happen with files you rip and encode properly using one of LAME's presets.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312215"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


what do you mean obtain files from dubious sources? whether files are downloaded or not, they still skip on iPod. I only have a 3G at the moment, but can anyone confirm (preferably Sehested or people with 2G mini/ipod photo) and see if this is a plausible fix? Not really sure what you mean by lame-header, pardon my ignorance.

here, try this sample [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35435]NIN right where it belongs, run with VBRfix[/url]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-10 18:06:37
Quote
what do you mean obtain files from dubious sources?
Files whose origin is unknown could be encoded by little known mp3 encoders or with settings causing problems.

Quote
I only have a 3G at the moment, but can anyone confirm (preferably Sehested) and see if this is a plausible fix?
I have tried the tool (Windows version 1.0), but it screwing up the mp3 so f2k now displays the wrong play time.
I stopped further investigation of the tool right there and I must admit that the tool appears rather dubious. Anyway LAME should not need a tool to replace its header.

Quote
Not really sure what you mean by lame-header, pardon my ignorance.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312279"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A mp3 file contains a header with information on bit-rate, length etc.. This information is used by mp3 players to display the correct play time of a song. Apparently slightly different types of headers are used by the different mp3 encoders.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-10 18:10:15
Did you try it on the actual iPod though and see if it fixed the skips? That'd be most pertinent. i tried doing a few mp3s, and they read fine on f2k.

Might just be,,, oh i have no idea
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-10 18:27:29
Quote
Did you try it on the actual iPod though and see if it fixed the skips? That'd be most pertinent. i tried doing a few mp3s, and they read fine on f2k.

Might just be,,, oh i have no idea
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312286"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tried your VBRfixed version of NINright on my 2G iPod mini. It still stutters.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-10 22:41:45
I'm relieved. I know , with certainty , there will be a fix as long as it is brought to Apple's attention.

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ipod...ameencoder.html (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ipod_itunes/ituneslameencoder.html)

they support LAME and offer it to download on their site. So LAME isn't the enemy in their eyes. yey, this was  a relief (dunno if its old news)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-07-10 22:53:30
Quote
I'm relieved. I know , with certainty , there will be a fix as long as it is brought to Apple's attention.

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ipod...ameencoder.html (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ipod_itunes/ituneslameencoder.html)

they support LAME and offer it to download on their site. So LAME isn't the enemy in their eyes. yey, this was  a relief (dunno if its old news)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312352"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-07-11 01:43:14
Quote
what do you mean obtain files from dubious sources? whether files are downloaded or not, they still skip on iPod. I only have a 3G at the moment, but can anyone confirm (preferably Sehested or people with 2G mini/ipod photo) and see if this is a plausible fix? Not really sure what you mean by lame-header, pardon my ignorance.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312279"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

all I said was that the tool you mentioned won't fix the iPod problem at all, since it's not related to it in any way. It will just fix some files that got screwed up, which normally doesn't happen, unless you got them from someone who used a weird encoder along with pretty scary settings and aborted the download at 98% or tried to cut them with one of the countless mp3 tools floating around online...

Those tools should only be used if it can't be avoided...and by no means should be run recursively on an entire mp3 collection just in case...

Anyway, the stutter problem even occurs if the files were properly encoded with LAME...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-11 02:02:52
I just misunderstood what you said. Sorry
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-11 16:22:24
yeah, sorry, that's my bad... files i encode myself with lame will have proper headers... this tool isn't fixing anything...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-11 22:30:44
Quote
I'm relieved. I know , with certainty , there will be a fix as long as it is brought to Apple's attention.

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ipod...ameencoder.html (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ipod_itunes/ituneslameencoder.html)

they support LAME and offer it to download on their site. So LAME isn't the enemy in their eyes. yey, this was  a relief (dunno if its old news)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312352"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


that's definitely some good news, they're saying that files encoded with lame should play fine on the ipod and clearly they do not...

(the settings they use for the example on their page is --alt-preset standard!)

i'd really just like to hear some feedback from apple, just an acknowledgement of the problem... at least that way we'd know that they're working on it.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Vero on 2005-07-12 02:22:59
Hi there,

I have a brand new 20gig ipod photo. I have downloaded and tested both sample files and have experienced no problems. Yes I did disable the equalizer.

I am running the latest firmware 2005-06-26.

Any other samples i should try?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: odious malefactor on 2005-07-12 03:45:21
Quote
Hi there,

I have a brand new 20gig ipod photo. I have downloaded and tested both sample files and have experienced no problems. Yes I did disable the equalizer.

I am running the latest firmware 2005-06-26.

Any other samples i should try?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312703"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The title of this thread would lead one to surmise that the problems mentioned relate to the mini and not your particular model.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Vero on 2005-07-12 16:54:29
Quote
The title of this thread would lead one to surmise that the problems mentioned relate to the mini and not your particular model.


however if you read the thread you would have noticed other models have been mentioned as well.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-12 20:07:27
Quote
Quote
The title of this thread would lead one to surmise that the problems mentioned relate to the mini and not your particular model.


however if you read the thread you would have noticed other models have been mentioned as well.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=312820"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, but the problem is only related to the 2G iPod mini.
I have personally tested 4G iPod and 1G iPod mini and they don't have the problem. Furthermore no users of other iPods than the 2G iPod mini have reported the problem. 

BTW Just discovered that "A Satisfied Mind" by Johnny Cash has the most obvious stuttering of all songs I heard right in the beginning
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-14 14:27:23
i'm getting 2g mini today (read below) so i'll test and see if theres stutter.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-14 19:13:15
Just brought a 4G colour iPod.

Thought that would cure the problem... And it almost did!

However still stutters on the NIN - Right Where it Belongs sample...

I'd say: It's going to be darn hard to find any songs that stutters on the 4G colour iPod, but they do exist.

What's more: It did not help using the Bass Reducer EQ settings, however Acoustic will do the trick.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-14 20:03:32
good god sehested, why do you go through so many DAP's?

almost as many as I do
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-14 21:33:14
Quote
good god sehested, why do you go through so many DAP's?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313383"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, I just brought four 4G color iPod's for my employees
Going to use them as an indispensable tool, sort of an electronic pocket book with a lot of information.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-15 00:16:43
just tested my 6gb green and it skipped with both five years and nin.

but with acoustic eq, it didn't

oh well, i dont think i'll transcode -- how long does the battery last (roughly) with an eq cranked?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kritip on 2005-07-15 00:29:22
Are samples still required. I reformatted my ipod mini today and noticed a track from Static-X's Start A War album skipped, i was riding my mtb at the time and it's a new album so i didn't know the track. I can listen through it again if anyone would like the sample?

Cheers,

Kristian
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-15 03:18:59
vbrfix fixed the samples for me when i put it on my ipod mini. cool
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-15 04:24:48
Quote
vbrfix fixed the samples for me when i put it on my ipod mini. cool
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313474"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


interesting... but it really doesn't seem to make sense... not that i'm doubting you... but it doesn't go along with the theory.

was your ipod unplugged from the computer when you played the sample? did you reset it?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-15 04:27:50
Yes it was unplugged, and I turned off equalizer.

Not sure what you mean by resetting it, I didn't think that was neccessary
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Cygnus X1 on 2005-07-15 04:54:52
If VBR fix really does have an effect on some files, I still have to wonder if this issue somehow has anything to do with another glitch I found with iTunes and my 2G mini: songs having incorrect length values written in the tag. I had albums like Tommy where songs would cut off 20 seconds too soon, but would play fine in iTunes. When I went into the file properties, and ticked both the end-length button and "update," the problem went away. I suspect the VBR problems we're having are an issue with both the tags AND clock-speed optimization; if it were simply a clock-speed thing, using VBR fix to rewrite the header wouldn't have any effect. Likewise, if it were simply a clock speed thing, then wouldn't ALL 320kbps MP3 frames (even those encoded by iTunes, God forbid) skip and stutter? I wish Apple would address this.

Needless to say, I quickly re-encoded my lossless files to 192kbps AAC for use with the iPod. I realize that this isn't an option for some, though.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-15 05:45:06
interesting argument. this hassle is done for me though. I'm transcoding everything I want to transfer to 128kbps AAC. not only to avoid VBR skipping, but so I can cram more on my iPod. and the sound difference isn't very noticable to my ears
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Cygnus X1 on 2005-07-15 06:02:36
Quote
interesting argument. this hassle is done for me though. I'm transcoding everything I want to transfer to 128kbps AAC. not only to avoid VBR skipping, but so I can cram more on my iPod. and the sound difference isn't very noticeable to my ears
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313494"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'd go with 160 if I were you; the difference between 192kbps and 160kbps is apt to be pretty small (if even perceivable on the majority of samples), but 128kbps starts to become noticeable, especially when transcoding. (I tried transcoding some old --aps and PsyTel --extreme tracks to 128kbps QT AAC to save some space on my iPod and almost immediately settled for the original tracks  ).

Edit: details.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-07-15 06:24:07
Quote
Yes it was unplugged, and I turned off equalizer.

Not sure what you mean by resetting it, I didn't think that was neccessary
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313484"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm skeptical when you say VBRfix fixed the problem files.

Do a reset to make sure (hold select + menu for a few seconds). Sometimes the 2G mini inexplicably gets stuck with clock speed optimization shut off. When that happens the problem files will play fine and the battery will drain about 3x faster than it should. I suspect this is what's happening to yours.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-07-15 17:58:08
Quote
just tested my 6gb green and it skipped with both five years and nin.

but with acoustic eq, it didn't

oh well, i dont think i'll transcode -- how long does the battery last (roughly) with an eq cranked?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313442"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm pretty sure you'll find out
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-15 18:00:50
honestly,

the vbrfix thing seemed to work for me on at least one file (Fiery Furnaces - Single Again).... but i tried it for another (The New Pornographers - The End of Medicine) and it did not work.

The rock eq setting didn't seem to work for me either... but i've tried the Acoustic eq setting and that one appears to do the trick, at least for the New Pornographers song.

(of course, i resetted the ipod and it was unplugged from the computer, both times.)

edit:
for me, getting rid of the stuttering is definitely a combination of having Sound Check On and Equalizer set to Acoustic.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2005-07-15 18:19:11
I will try the equalizer on acoustic setting when I get home. Currently mine is on Rock (to avoid the skipping problem) and I haven't noticed any skips since on my everyday music.

I always have Sound Check on and the problem did occur when I had SoundCheck on and the EQ off.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-16 16:33:36
has anyone tried linux on 2G? i would, but i just got this puppy and i'm afraid of getting a very very small coaster that would only be good for dixie cups
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-19 01:13:42
my new ipod 60gb skips too, but not much. can't wait for a fix. this mp3 player is here to stay (being serious this time)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: stewy on 2005-07-19 16:42:21
does anyone know what sound check actually does?

i'm guessing it's kind of a normalization option... since some mp3 files can be very loud and some very quiet.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-07-19 18:44:52
Yup, its a normalization utility. You sound check all your files in iTunes, transfer it to Ipod, and turn it on (if you want normalization). It's good because if you get sick of same volume you can turn it off (unlike mp3 gain where you have to undo it then re-transfer).

Downside though is that it uses more battery ,and I've heard mp3gain works better to achieve normalization.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grug on 2005-07-22 16:15:08
foo_pod converts replaygain info to soundcheck when uploading to the iPod
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-07-23 06:29:13
Just out of curiosity... has anyone experienced any stuttering w/ alt-preset extreme or alt-preset medium?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-07-23 09:10:34
Quote
Just out of curiosity... has anyone experienced any stuttering w/ alt-preset extreme or alt-preset medium?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=315458")

The specific settings you mention has not been tested. However the problem has only been seen when lame VBR is allowed to go to 320 kbps:

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=298019]Test lame settings[/url]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-07-24 05:29:00
Quote
Quote
Just out of curiosity... has anyone experienced any stuttering w/ alt-preset extreme or alt-preset medium?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=315458")

The specific settings you mention has not been tested. However the problem has only been seen when lame VBR is allowed to go to 320 kbps:

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=298019]Test lame settings[/url]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=315474"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


For what it's worth, I tried Nine Inch Nails - Right Where It Belongs:

lame 3.96.1
--alt-preset extreme: still stutters badly (not quite as bad as standard)
--alt-preset medium: no stutter
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: ezra2323 on 2005-08-01 23:07:34
Scanning through this thread it seems like only a handful of songs are experiencing this issue. Has anyone had experience with a large number of APS songs experiencing this issue? If not, would a simple solution not be to encode these small number of songs with --preset CBR 256 instead of APS? Seems easier than changing the equalizer settings for all songs.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: soundcheck on 2005-08-02 00:07:55
Quote
Scanning through this thread it seems like only a handful of songs are experiencing this issue.


Well, yes and no. We're only taking note of songs that show obvious stuttering. Many more APS songs have minor skips/stutters, not worth discussing.

Quote
Has anyone had experience with a large number of APS songs experiencing this issue? If not, would a simple solution not be to encode these small number of songs with --preset CBR 256 instead of APS? Seems easier than changing the equalizer settings for all songs.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=317233"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Re-ripping to CBR is one solution. For those who are unwilling/unable to re-rip the EQ is the way to go, though you have to watch out for distortion.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: crunge on 2005-09-03 02:59:17
This is my first post on hydrogenaudio.org, but I've been following this topic with some interest.

I have an iPod Photo 60 GB and experience the stuttering problem as described. Granted the only track I have that is listed as experiencing the problem is the NIN "Right Where It Belongs".

Out of curiosity I tried the latest alpha version of lame (3.97a12; yes I know it isn't recommended but several people are reporting good results) with the settings -V2 --vbr-new; no noticeable stuttering. (Yes the iPod was disconnected). Has anyone else noticed this?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-09-07 23:04:05
Apple today discontinued their iPod mini line.

It's very unlikely that they will ever fix the stuttering issue...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: NeoRenegade on 2005-09-10 13:02:29
Good. Time to move on. Try the Nano, or just get something from another brand.

(How long do you figure it is before Creative Labs sues Apple for using the same name as one of their series?)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2005-09-10 14:28:03
yea can someone let us know if nano has the skip issue? that's kind of a big deciding factor. also transfer speeds.

how am i going to toss my 60gb photo?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: ezra2323 on 2005-09-10 15:46:06
I'm throwing in the towel. Since I have an iMac, a shuffle, and soon an iPod Nano and iTunes 5 now has VBR (ie. ABR  ) I'm going with AAC 192 VBR instead of LAME MP3 APS. No stuttering worries for me anymore.

Oh - and my Mini will soon be on eBay 
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Cygnus X1 on 2005-09-10 16:31:19
Quote
Oh - and my Mini will soon be on eBay 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326155"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That makes two of us 
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2005-09-10 17:01:20
Quote
Quote
Oh - and my Mini will soon be on eBay 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326155"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That makes two of us 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326162"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm seriously considering making that three of us!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: JohanDeBock on 2005-09-16 22:29:35
Quote
Just brought a 4G colour iPod.

Thought that would cure the problem... And it almost did!

However still stutters on the NIN - Right Where it Belongs sample...

I'd say: It's going to be darn hard to find any songs that stutters on the 4G colour iPod, but they do exist.

What's more: It did not help using the Bass Reducer EQ settings, however Acoustic will do the trick.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313376"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Isn't this a bit weird if it increases the clockspeed for every preset other than flat and off?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: lex_nasa on 2005-09-17 10:01:47
I had the same problem with LAME, but files encoded using the Helix MP3 encoder play on the Shuffle, Nano and iPod Photo with no problems atall, this is at V 135 (equivalent bit rate to LAME V 1 --vbr-new).  Even though it is still early days for testing the Helix encoder, I'm happy with the quality, and it saves me having to keep multiple copies of songs encoded at different bit rates for different players.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-09-17 15:42:57
iPod nano stutters as bad as iPod mini 2G... 

Just back from the shop, where I had a chance to test it with Five Years after and Right Where it Belongs.

Skipping/stuttering exactly the same as on the iPod mini 2G. 

The nano EQ distort the sound as bad as the EQ on the mini. 

To sum up the problem:
The stuttering will occur in specific locations on selected songs. A rough estimate is that less than 1% of songs will have this problem, but it depends on the music you have in your library.

If you want top sound quality either:
- don't buy Apple or
- don't use LAME aps
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Klyith on 2005-09-18 03:22:31
I wonder if using --vbr-new might prevent this problem? People have noticed that it doesn't produce as wide of a spread of bitrates.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2005-09-18 22:44:03
Yeah I am very curious on whether 3.97b1 causes this issue on the Mini's and Nano's. I may have to do some fiddling around...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Rasmus_ö on 2005-10-01 01:54:09
Nice to see someone figured out the cause of this. Good job!

I found this thread by google search, never been to the forums before, but i thought i should add my experience with the G2 ipod mini and LAME aps so far. Which is: ALL songs encoded with LAME aps skips in several places. Althought only a few skip noticeably like 'Right where it belongs'.

If only Apple would do an equaly good job and make one last fix for the world's best selling mp3 player of all time. But i suppose that is too much to ask for 

EDIT: Not sure if it has been mentioned before, but i noticed that a sudden decrease in bitrate can make it skip too.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: AgentMil on 2005-10-01 08:33:01
Hrmm is this problem only inherent in iPods or any other players that use the same PortalPlayer chips? Or is clock speed determined by the manufacturer as it seems to be linked to battery life (i.e. lower speed increase battery life). Also if possible could someone please PM me a link to the above files so I can test on my iRiver H10 (I didn't like the Nano so I bought the H10 instead  ).


Regards
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-10-01 15:48:20
Quote
Hrmm is this problem only inherent in iPods or any other players that use the same PortalPlayer chips? Or is clock speed determined by the manufacturer as it seems to be linked to battery life (i.e. lower speed increase battery life). Also if possible could someone please PM me a link to the above files so I can test on my iRiver H10 (I didn't like the Nano so I bought the H10 instead  ).


Regards
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=330803")

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=292861]First post with links to samples[/url]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: AgentMil on 2005-10-03 11:12:38
I feel so dumb! Dumber still I read the whole thread as well...   
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: banana on 2005-10-04 01:23:21
Hi,

I'm thinking of getting an iPod Nano. It has been mentioned somewhere in this topic that turning on the equalizer may fix the lame -aps "stuttering" problem. Can anyone confirm this? If this does solve the issue, is there anyway to have the equalizer turned on, yet set everything "flat" (so there is no actual change in sound)? And if so, does setting everything flat still resolve the issue?

From the original post...
Quote
- problem go away when using an EQ setting different from flat/off
- only safe EQ setting to use is Bass Reducer / Treble Reducer in order to avoid distortion of songs with a high recording level


Is this indeed the only way? 

Thanks!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: crunge on 2005-10-04 03:48:51
Quote
From the original post...
Quote
- problem go away when using an EQ setting different from flat/off
- only safe EQ setting to use is Bass Reducer / Treble Reducer in order to avoid distortion of songs with a high recording level


Is this indeed the only way? 

Thanks!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331394"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


My initial tests have been pretty positive with 3.97x and -V2 --vbr-new. At least with the NIN song I don't hear the stuttering, whereas with 3.90.3 and aps I did.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kritip on 2005-10-04 07:43:46
I found skipping with the rock EQ on a Queens of the Stone Age Track. It wasn't 100% reproducible though, but about 5 in 10 it would still skip. Very Odd!

The Track in question is "Little Sister" of "Lullabize To Parralze", encoded with lame 3.96 -V 2.

I can't get it skipping the few times i tried this morning, but i was 50% reproducible on my long train journey home the other day.



Kristian
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Turok on 2005-11-17 17:28:15
Hello to all Members,

I'm the new one and I only want to make a single post
I know the iPod mini 2G problem from the first second - I love EBM music and I think there are 10 percent of my songs which show this stuttering problem.

Okay... but today I think I have found a small solution. With your "_show_speed" instruction you gave me an idea: there are other options, too.
Please put another empty file in "/iPod_Control/Device/" but name it "_disable_cache". (It's possible to put more options than one at a time.)

Now the clock speed is only at 80 - the stuttering is away. But I don't know, if the battery time is shorter now or not!?

Please test it, I'm very excited to your opinion.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2005-11-17 17:48:00
Quote
Hello to all Members,

I'm the new one and I only want to make a single post
I know the iPod mini 2G problem from the first second - I love EBM music and I think there are 10 percent of my songs which show this stuttering problem.

Okay... but today I think I have found a small solution. With your "_show_speed" instruction you gave me an idea: there are other options, too.
Please put another empty file in "/iPod_Control/Device/" but name it "_disable_cache". (It's possible to put more options than one at a time.)

Now the clock speed is only at 80 - the stuttering is away. But I don't know, if the battery time is shorter now or not!?

Please test it, I'm very excited to your opinion.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=342597"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



If it means that it doesn't use the onboard flash memory, then the battery would be much reduced
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kritip on 2005-11-17 23:07:50
and also if it means this, then you are at risk from more micro drive faliure, as it will be reading all the time, leaving increased risk for head crashes etc.

Kristian
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Turok on 2005-11-17 23:14:42
Quote
If it means that it doesn't use the onboard flash memory, then the battery would be much reduced
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=342600"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, you are right. I have made a test with full battery - its lifetime was only ~5h now. That's similar to the iPod mini 1G.

Ehm... yes. What should I say? It's no full solution - but a small way.
Please, Apple, give us hope...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Turok on 2005-11-17 23:16:43
Quote
and also if it means this, then you are at risk from more micro drive faliure, as it will be reading all the time, leaving increased risk for head crashes etc.

Kristian
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=342668"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That seems so... I know
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MikeekiM on 2005-12-28 06:08:48
Any update on this issue?

My nano skips on many of my songs (not a majority, but enough to irritate the heck out of me)...  I have all of my files (over 100GB of mp3s) encoded using LAME, and re-encoding is just not a viable option...  I don't think I could stomach reripping that many CDs all over again!

Songs skip regardless of whether I use the EQ setting or not...

I am considering another iPod as a companion to my nano...  Does this problem occur on the new iPods (with video capabilities)?

In any case, I am praying that Apple puts out a firmware fix for this issue, since I plan on keeping my nano, even if I get a new larger capacity unit...  I would rather have less battery life with skip-free music!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2005-12-28 08:36:01
Have there been any reports about Nano stuttering when playing iTunes AAC @ 128 kbps VBR?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-12-28 08:45:34
Quote
Have there been any reports about Nano stuttering when playing iTunes AAC @ 128 kbps VBR?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352764"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
AFAIK No
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: loophole on 2005-12-28 10:59:51
I'm quite honestly suprised they haven't fixed this, and I actually have faith they will (considering how far they upgraded the original 1G model's firmware, even though they still had most of the market back then)

They're obviously somewhat concerned with quality going by the progress on their AAC encoder. Apparently Steve jobs responds personally to email sent to him and I was going to ask him about it but I don't actually own an iPod since it got stolen so it hasn't actually affected me. Anyway it just seems strange. Have people been leaving them feedback about it or is the storm constrained to this teacup? Maybe they don't know, or don't realize how bad it is?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2005-12-28 12:55:30
Quote
Any update on this issue?

i was going to ask the same. i'm about to buy a nano, but i would have to buy an iAudio if LAME works bad.

EDIT:

- problem go away when using an EQ setting different from flat/off
- only safe EQ setting to use is Bass Reducer / Treble Reducer in order to avoid distortion of songs with a high recording level
- for the 4G color iPod only the sample with NIN - Right Where it Belongs stutters, even with the EQ set to Bass Reducer. Acoustic EQ setting makes the problem go away.

sorry for the question, but i'm yet to onw an iPod, does the Bass/Treble Reducer EQ settings change the music much? i mean, if that fixes the problem, why don't use it?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MLP on 2005-12-28 13:36:58
Quote
Quote
Any update on this issue?

i was going to ask the same. i'm about to buy a nano, but i would have to buy an iAudio if LAME works bad.

EDIT:

- problem go away when using an EQ setting different from flat/off
- only safe EQ setting to use is Bass Reducer / Treble Reducer in order to avoid distortion of songs with a high recording level
- for the 4G color iPod only the sample with NIN - Right Where it Belongs stutters, even with the EQ set to Bass Reducer. Acoustic EQ setting makes the problem go away.

sorry for the question, but i'm yet to onw an iPod, does the Bass/Treble Reducer EQ settings change the music much? i mean, if that fixes the problem, why don't use it?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352799"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I've just bought a Video Ipod 60G and I'm having problems with two songs:

- Madonna / Hung Up
- Cold Play / Fix

Both files were encoded with Lame 3.97 b2 VBR and I get distortion in both.

So, I ran mp3gain and both files had a lot clipping. With this tool I gave both files the right db (89), but they are still clipping on my ipod. Definitley I can hear A LOT of distortion. I will try to encode them in AAC to see if Lame is the problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MikeekiM on 2005-12-28 19:56:13
Quote
sorry for the question, but i'm yet to onw an iPod, does the Bass/Treble Reducer EQ settings change the music much? i mean, if that fixes the problem, why don't use it?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352799"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have heard that this fixes the problem...but my problem still exists, even with the use of the EQ settings...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2005-12-28 23:49:21
Quote
I've just bought a Video Ipod 60G and I'm having problems with two songs:

- Madonna / Hung Up
- Cold Play / Fix

Both files were encoded with Lame 3.97 b2 VBR and I get distortion in both.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352803"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Madonna's - Hung Up is supposed to sound distorted. 
The distortion is the same as on the original. E.g. from 2.45 to 3.00 in the song it is very noticeable.

If the second song you refer to is Coldplay - Fix You, I can't hear any added distortion in the encoded version either.

IMHO you should be happy that you can now hear details of the original production that previously went unnoticed. 

[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Encoded with lame3.96 aps. Played back on 60 GB video iPod with HD-600.[/span]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2005-12-29 05:46:15
Quote
I've just bought a Video Ipod 60G and I'm having problems with two songs:

- Madonna / Hung Up
- Cold Play / Fix

Both files were encoded with Lame 3.97 b2 VBR and I get distortion in both.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352803"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

it's either meant to be or try to turn off the EQ
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2005-12-30 01:42:35
Quote
I've just bought a Video Ipod 60G and I'm having problems with two songs:

- Madonna / Hung Up
- Cold Play / Fix

Both files were encoded with Lame 3.97 b2 VBR and I get distortion in both.

So, I ran mp3gain and both files had a lot clipping. With this tool I gave both files the right db (89), but they are still clipping on my ipod. Definitley I can hear A LOT of distortion. I will try to encode them in AAC to see if Lame is the problem.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352803"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That is not related to this problem. This problem is actual skips in the songs, not distortion.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: NeoRenegade on 2005-12-31 18:56:40
I'm very happy with my new Creative Zen Micro here.

No problems playing my VBR MP3's, and it's gapless (or very very VERY nearly so) too.

Sorry to hear about all you guys having trouble with your iPods.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2005-12-31 21:48:18
Quote
I'm very happy with my new Creative Zen Micro here.

No problems playing my VBR MP3's, and it's gapless (or very very VERY nearly so) too.

Sorry to hear about all you guys having trouble with your iPods.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=353641"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

isn't it kinda off-topic?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: NeoRenegade on 2006-01-01 07:09:16
No, not at all. If anybody here has trouble with the iPod mini and their VBR files, they should exchange it for the Zen Micro. With the exception of AAC support, it does everything the iPod Mini can do. Lend me an iPod Mini for testing and I can tell you in what ways the Zen Micro even outperforms it.

The thread itself is off topic by the way (belongs in Audio Hardware, not MP3 Tech).
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: loophole on 2006-01-01 10:42:57
.  <----- is this a piece of your brain?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2006-01-01 17:10:37
Quote
Lend me an iPod Mini for testing and I can tell you in what ways the Zen Micro even outperforms it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=353703"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You must be great fun at parties
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: NeoRenegade on 2006-01-02 14:06:01
An iPod circle jerk party... I'd rather stay home.

Matter of fact: If you buy something and it doesn't meet your needs/expectations, you stand a better chance at buying something else that will, than getting any change.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2006-01-11 04:14:00
FIRMWARE UPDATE!

http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/ (http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/)

What's new in iPod Updater 2006-01-10:

    * Support for the iPod Radio Remote for iPod with video and iPod nano
    * Bug fixes for iPod with video, iPod nano, iPod with color display, iPod mini, and iPod with Click Wheel

Let's hope that "bug fixes" address a certain bug...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2006-01-11 17:12:14
Quote
FIRMWARE UPDATE!

http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/ (http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/)

What's new in iPod Updater 2006-01-10:

    * Support for the iPod Radio Remote for iPod with video and iPod nano
    * Bug fixes for iPod with video, iPod nano, iPod with color display, iPod mini, and iPod with Click Wheel

Let's hope that "bug fixes" address a certain bug...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356222"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just tried the new firmware on my iPod mini 2G...

Bug not fixed. 

This is the second update made by Apple after the stuttering issue has been reported.

One could speculate that the issue is a hardware issue with the processor that apparently calculates the clock speed wrong when playing back mp3.

Would still like to hear whether the bug is still present in the nano too.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-01-11 17:17:23
iPod nano with new 1.1 firmware still stutters.  In other words, Apple will never fix this.  Good times...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2006-01-12 07:08:17
Quote
iPod nano with new 1.1 firmware still stutters.  In other words, Apple will never fix this.  Good times...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356375"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not surprised. Why would they...they have a monopoly...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: earphiler on 2006-01-12 21:19:27
ipod updater just came out, wonder if they've fixed the ipod photo vbr skip.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2006-01-12 21:40:14
Quote
I'm not surprised. Why would they...they have a monopoly...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356484"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yeah that must be the reason. Or, it could simply be a limitation with its decoding chip. That could explain why it's not a problem on the new video iPods
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: moozooh on 2006-01-12 22:29:12
Quote
Yeah that must be the reason. Or, it could simply be a limitation with its decoding chip. That could explain why it's not a problem on the new video iPods
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356637"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Limitation with its decoding chip? No freaking way, and the fact Rockbox developers have already started the porting process confirms this quite enough.

The other thing is that if Apple releases another firmware upgrade that fixes the stuttering problem, it'll reduce processor throttling, which may (and possibly will) lead to a reduced battery life.
And that kinda contradicts with one of their marketing statements of increased battery life (12—14 hours is already pretty bad for a flash player, they can't afford themselves to lower this value any more).

AFAIK, video iPods have more capatious battery.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: westgroveg on 2006-01-14 02:04:06
I think the iPOD's only really aimed at playing AAC files downloaded from the iTunes store so why would an mp3 bug limited to a non iTunes encoder be a priority for Apple?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: moozooh on 2006-01-14 03:14:41
Quote
I think the iPOD's only really aimed at playing AAC files downloaded from the iTunes store so why would an mp3 bug limited to a non iTunes encoder be a priority for Apple?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356905"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's Apple's main excuse, yeah.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2006-01-14 05:28:45
Quote
Quote
I'm not surprised. Why would they...they have a monopoly...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356484"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yeah that must be the reason. Or, it could simply be a limitation with its decoding chip. That could explain why it's not a problem on the new video iPods
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356637"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the issues with the 3G iPod were never fixed either...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2006-01-14 12:37:36
Quote
the issues with the 3G iPod were never fixed either...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356924"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What issues? When I got mine it was full of bugs (channel swap, 'tick' between songs, not turning on and frequent crashes etc). These were all taken care of in a subsequent FW update.

If they didn't know/care about the skipping problem, then why was it fixed on the 5G iPods?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2006-01-14 22:38:44
Quote
If they didn't know/care about the skipping problem, then why was it fixed on the 5G iPods?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356992"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

might have happened by chance due to different parts or they fixed it so they give people another reason to upgrade. It is also a difference if you design a product from scratch or eliminate bugs for an existing product that has been superseded.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: amitpatel5000 on 2006-01-19 17:18:34
i have iPod nano 2GB
i have copied almost 50 Lame VBR -V2 encoded songs. and i listened to them regularly (with eq. flat), they never skip!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-01-19 23:46:21
Quote
i have iPod nano 2GB
i have copied almost 50 Lame VBR -V2 encoded songs. and i listened to them regularly (with eq. flat), they never skip!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358326"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's not "every song", it's a select few... and it's very irritating.  Yes, using the latest LAME 3.97 at -V2 or -V0 & --vbr-new.  Which songs are impacted may depend on the version of the encoder.  And as most have said, it's somewhat related to the bitrate changing significantly.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: tessar on 2006-01-21 06:50:51
This is my first post so please be kind 

I downloaded the samples AWS_HOPE, FiveYears, and NINRight to my video iPod 30 GB. I did not hear any stuttering or skipping on this particular iPod. The iPod was unplugged except for Sony MDR V600 headphones.

BTW, I am in the process of re-ripping our collection of 200-300 CDs with EAC and LAME 3.97 Beta 2 with --preset fast standard -B 256 options. I previously used MusicMatch at CBR 128k a year ago. I don't have golden ears, but maybe my daughter can hear a difference 

Thank you, sehested, for the treasure trove of observations and samples!

Quote
I am considering another iPod as a companion to my nano...  Does this problem occur on the new iPods (with video capabilities)?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=352755"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2006-01-21 14:34:59
The Video iPods don't have this issue, it has been proven.

Quote
BTW, I am in the process of re-ripping our collection of 200-300 CDs with EAC and LAME 3.97 Beta 2 with --preset fast standard -B 256 options.


DON'T USE THAT PRESET! Not only is --preset fast standard old and replaced by --v2, using -b 256 is not a smart move.

Use "-v2 --vbr-fast" instead with LAME 3.97 Beta 2. Never use custom presets with LAME, there is no need to and you will do more harm then good.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-01-21 17:36:40
Quote
DON'T USE THAT PRESET! Not only is --preset fast standard old and replaced by --v2, using -b 256 is not a smart move.

Use "-v2 --vbr-fast" instead with LAME 3.97 Beta 2. Never use custom presets with LAME, there is no need to and you will do more harm then good.
LAME 3.97 "--preset fast standard" maps to "-V 2 --vbr-new" -- you can use either; no difference.  But yes, don't set a minimum or maximum bitrate using -b & -B
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: tessar on 2006-01-22 02:16:18
Sehested observed that this stuttering problem does not occur on iPod nano or mini 2G when using -B 256. While I don't have such an iPod now, that doesn't mean I won't have one later. If Apple has not fixed this problem by now, I would not hold my breath until a fix is delivered.

Quote
  But yes, don't set a minimum or maximum bitrate using -b & -B
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358799"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: singaiya on 2006-01-22 02:41:06
Quote
The Video iPods don't have this issue, it has been proven.

Quote
BTW, I am in the process of re-ripping our collection of 200-300 CDs with EAC and LAME 3.97 Beta 2 with --preset fast standard -B 256 options.


DON'T USE THAT PRESET! Not only is --preset fast standard old and replaced by --v2, using -b 256 is not a smart move.

Use "-v2 --vbr-fast" instead with LAME 3.97 Beta 2. Never use custom presets with LAME, there is no need to and you will do more harm then good.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358769"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


For ipod listening and general stereo music listening that is true. Except there are other applications where you would want to use non presets with lame. What about streaming, movies, audiobooks, speeches; what if or dolby surround playback is all you use? I know what you mean, and I think the VBR presets fit most common music listening uses, but I have to point out that there are other uses for mp3 encoding. And besides, even for music listening V 2 would be overkill for most people, unless you can abx any samples from the recent listening test, which were not even  "killer" samples.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Central Scrutinizer on 2006-02-04 07:02:32
I think I am experiencing this same issue with my 4GB Mini (non-color). I had noticed skips / stutters before on several different tracks of varying artists, but had just passed it off to bad rips. Some of my CDs were scratched, and I will admit that at times I just used EAC's burst mode to get through them. This time however, I got stuttering on a rip from a brand new CD: Jackson Browne's "Solo Acoustic vol. 1". It happens on several tracks, but is most noticeable on "The Birds of St. Marks". Since this is a "live" album, there are the usual little skips between tracks. I hate that ipod feature, but I accept it. Additional skipping in the middle of the songs kind of ruins my day.

I listened to the same MP3 on my PC, and there was no stuttering, so I thought there was something wrong with my iPod. After searching for an answer, I found this thread, and bingo! This has got to be what is going on.

As suggested, I tried turning on EQ (used Acoustic), and stutter disappeared. I also made AAC files (from a WAV) of this track at 128, 160, & 192 CBR (probably should have tried VBR) and no stutter. I then made another MP3 with Lame and it stuttered in the same exact places.

This EQ workaround is what I will probably have to live with. I spent far too many hours ripping my CD collection using EAC and Lame 3.90.3 Alt Preset Standard, after getting this iPod as a gift. (was an MPC guy before that). Really don’t feel like re-ripping and encoding once again to another format like AAC.

Just bought a really nice portable amp, a pair of ER4 headphones, and thought I was all set to enjoy. I do like my iPod a lot, and the music sounds amazing with this combo, but this issue is very annoying. I’m skeptical that Apple will ever fix it with an update, especially since they discontinued the Mini. (This could have been one of the reasons why.)

Thank you Sehested, and others, for your informative posts and all your work at bringing this “bug” to light.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: loophole on 2006-02-04 07:59:18
If everyone would just use AAC like they're supposed to we'd never have this issue to begin with.


</flamebait>
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2006-02-04 09:09:46
Quote
If everyone would just use AAC like they're supposed to we'd never have this issue to begin with.


</flamebait>
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=361806"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2006-02-04 10:46:18
Quote
Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=361813"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At the risk of spoiling loopholes bait, here's his logic with my comments:

Quote
If everyone [red: all iPod users] would just use AAC [red: Apple AAC playback flawlessly] like they're supposed to [red: loophole insinuating that Apple want all iPod users to only use AAC] we'd never have this issue to begin with.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=361806"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


To bite or not to bite...? That is the question!
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2006-02-04 11:00:08
Quote
If everyone would just use AAC like they're supposed to we'd never have this issue to begin with.


</flamebait>
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=361806")


This is the biggest bullshit ever. I tested Nero AAC files on a friend's iPod Mini and they stutter when VBR is used. My mom's iPod Shuffle (she isn't a techno-freak and the Shuffle had the most simple design) won't play Nero AAC files at all (see [a href="http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300590)]http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300590)[/url]. The only reason why iTuness AAC doesn't stutter is because it doesn't use VBR, but ABR.
And if Apple didn't want us to use MP3, why the heck do they advertise MP3 playback abilities?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MoSXS on 2006-02-04 11:59:35
Quote
Quote
If everyone would just use AAC like they're supposed to we'd never have this issue to begin with.


</flamebait>
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=361806")


This is the biggest bullshit ever. I tested Nero AAC files on a friend's iPod Mini and they stutter when VBR is used. My mom's iPod Shuffle (she isn't a techno-freak and the Shuffle had the most simple design) won't play Nero AAC files at all (see [a href="http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300590)]http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300590)[/url]. The only reason why iTuness AAC doesn't stutter is because it doesn't use VBR, but ABR.
And if Apple didn't want us to use MP3, why the heck do they advertise MP3 playback abilities?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=361825"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think someone needs a sarcasm detector for their birthday 

iTunes AAC VBR files don't skip or stutter on my iPod mini. Their bitrate is all over the place too, just use Foobar and check it for yourself.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2006-02-04 12:28:53
The sarcasm was that we should use AAC over MP3. The problem is that not even AAC is supported correctly (see Nero AAC problem I mentioned)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Farpenoodle on 2006-02-04 14:00:19
Well I've never had any Nero VBR files skip on my 2G mini. I think it's just the shuffles that have any real problem with this. But I would very much like to use LAME.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: MoSXS on 2006-02-05 03:49:31
Quote
The sarcasm was that we should use AAC over MP3. The problem is that not even AAC is supported correctly (see Nero AAC problem I mentioned)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=361835"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


But the thing is.... I think it was pretty obvious he was joking around.

I never had Nero AAC VBR files skip on my iPod either. I'm using iTunes VBR AAC now with no problems. As I mentioned before, you can use Foobar to see the variation in bitrate in iTunes created files.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but how is this supposed LAME problem Apple's fault? This supposed problem only happened with a very small number of songs that were encoded with certain revisions of LAME, correct? So how is it Apple's fault? Why isn't LAME at fault? I know in the eyes of most people here, LAME = God. But this problem only occurs with certain revisions of LAME and no other MP3 encoder. Before you go off spouting about how LAME is the "Standard", let's not forget that the vast majority of people out there have never even heard of LAME. Most DAP owners out there are iPod owners and probably have never even looked at the "importing" tab in iTunes so they're all using 128kbps AAC. So, anyway, how is this Apple's fault? A small number of songs encoded with certain versions of LAME cause improper playback on the iPod. This is their fault, how? No other VBR codec causes this problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-02-05 04:38:31
Quote
So how is it Apple's fault? Why isn't LAME at fault?
Quite simply because virtually every other product plays the files correctly, including Apple's own iPod with Video.  It's with any version of LAME... not "certain revisions of LAME."  Some VBR encodes will have bitrate variations that stutter on the iPod nano, Mini, etc.  It's really inexcusable the Nano, with the current firmware, still has the problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2006-02-05 07:41:26
Quote
I know in the eyes of most people here, LAME = God.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=362001"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


And in the eyes of some other people, Apple or Google = God, Microsoft = Shit, etc. 

Anyways, did you bother to read my post entirely? I didn't said iTunes encodes AAC with CBR, I said it encodes with ABR. ABR is similar to VBR, but the bitrate difference between frames is smaller. Therefore, I doubt you have frames jumping from 32 kbps to 320 kbps.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to an iPod other than the Shuffle now - and the Shuffle refuses to play non-iTunes AAC files entirely, so I cannot test which Nero encodes skip.

An MP3 player that is not able to play VBR MP3s flawlessly is not an MP3 player. And not only it has problems with MP3, some iPods also seem to have problems with AAC.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: drezon on 2006-02-05 13:38:36
Quote
But this problem only occurs with certain revisions of LAME and no other MP3 encoder.


Really? So you did test all other MP3 encoders in existance out there?

Quote
So, anyway, how is this Apple's fault? A small number of songs encoded with certain versions of LAME cause improper playback on the iPod. This is their fault, how? No other VBR codec causes this problem.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=362001"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well LAME outputs MPEG 1 / 2 Audio Layer III standards compliant bitstreams. This can be proven. If any device can not decode that standards compliant bitstream correctly it's obviously that devices fault (or put in another way: the device is not Audio Layer III compliant).
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: ChiGung on 2006-02-05 15:32:37
Quote
LAME outputs MPEG 1 / 2 Audio Layer III standards compliant bitstreams. This can be proven.

iirc, the switch, "--strictly-enforce-ISO" would need to be included to ensure compliancy with the most pessimistic interpretation of the standards.

Has this switch been tried yet with the ipod's problem?
If it works, it could be a little less obstructive to the normal encoding scheme than -B 256 (the quality hit of either being unknown but likely diminutive)

It would be good if a --ipod alias switch for -B256 or --strictly.. could be compiled into Lame, to help diffuse this problem, regardless of who is at fault.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2006-02-05 23:55:28
Update:

The LAME bug has been reported to Apple since long - both through Apple Feedback and via their US telephone support.

Recently I have also reported the problem via Apple's Developers Connection Bug Reporter.

Initially I filed the bug as "Other bug". After their initial review the status was raised to "Serious bug" by Apple support. After a few days the status was lowered to "Other bug", probably by second line support.


I have decided to part with my iPod mini 2G. My iPod video has no playback problems and the sound quality is vastly superior to the mini, when using quality headphones.


However before parting entirely with the mini I wanted to make one last round of tests using LAME 3.97b2 and iPod mini software 1.4.1.

David Bowie - Five Years:

LAME3.93 --alt-preset standard -> stutters 
LAME3.96.1 --preset standard --strictly-enforce-ISO -> stutters 
LAME3.96.1 --preset standard -B 256 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V0 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V1 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V2 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V3 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V4 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V5 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V2 -> OK

Conclusion: LAME 3.97b2 no longer have the stuttering problem with the Five Years sample.

Nine Inch Nails - Right where it Belongs:

LAME3.96.1 --preset standard -> stutters badly 
LAME3.97b2 -V0 --vbr-new -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V1 --vbr-new -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V2 --vbr-new -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V3 --vbr-new -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V4 --vbr-new -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V5 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V0 -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V1 -> stutters 
LAME3.97b2 -V2 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V3 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V4 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V5 -> OK

Conclusion: iPod mini 2G still stutters with some LAME3.97b2 encoded files, but
Five Years can no longer be used as sample for demonstration of stuttering.
Although NIN - Right where it Belongs stutters less with LAME3.97b2 than previously, it is still an excellent sample for demonstrating stuttering. 

I have recorded the line out from the iPod mini so people not having an iPod mini 2G will be able to hear what the stuttering sounds like. 

You will find the line out files as well as the lossless and encoded files here (http://homepage.mac.com/michael.riber/Audio/).


NB: People purchasing music from sites like allofmp3 should be aware they risk getting files encoded with older versions of LAME than the current 3.97b.

Although allofmp3 currently use LAME 3.97b with -V 2 --vbr-new as their preset standard setting, some files encoded with older versions of LAME exist in their file cache.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2006-02-06 03:18:01
I probably will be getting an iPod Video after its next revision. My mini has been great (stuttering aside), but I am sick of fine tuning my playlists to fit in 4 GB of space.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2006-02-07 22:04:12
Sold my iPod mini 2G. 

Wasn't even sad to let it go, rather I feel releaved. 

Apple today introduced a 1GB version of their iPod nano.

I think I will test that out when it hit the local Apple store...

Probably still have the stuttering issue, but you never know...
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-02-09 14:40:32
Quote
When I bought my iPod, I noticed that some songs couldn’t seek, some cut off prematurely, and some said they were much longer than they really were. What gives? Well, apparently iTunes and the iPod use a totally old school method of reading variable bitrate headers. ... iTunes uses an old school “header” to designate VBR files. This header, called a “Xing” header ... If your VBR files don’t have the header, you are going to have problems, such as not being able to seek through your files, having files cut out prematurely, and having an incorrect total time reported. ... The program is called VBRfix. ... I let it run for an hour or two, and it fixed all my music. ... If you are having any problems with Mp3 files on your iPod or in iTunes, I highly recommend that you give it a try.
link (http://txfx.net/2005/02/08/vbr-mp3-fix/)

can people with iPods confirm this? i'm getting my 2GB nano in 2 weeks, so i can't test now
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-02-10 16:35:47
no one?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2006-02-10 16:47:35
Quote
no one?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=363294"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

VBRfix has already been tried. However there is nothing wrong with the LAME headers and VBRfix will not solve the stuttering problem.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-02-10 17:42:41
so this guy is telling bs?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-02-10 18:27:03
The stutter we all love with some LAME VBR MP3 content has no "fix."  Sorry.  If you are talking about "vbrfix", that has little to do with what we're talking about.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: BradPDX on 2006-02-10 18:41:17
One more reason why I stopped using LAME and went to 100% AAC... sounds better, works better, no skipping anywhere, smaller files.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: BoNeLeSS on 2006-02-10 19:19:43
Quote
...sounds better, works better ... smaller files.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=363316"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-02-10 21:47:55
Quote
One more reason why I stopped using LAME and went to 100% AAC... sounds better, works better, no skipping anywhere, smaller files.
Remember to specify Apple iTunes AAC, because other AAC implementations don't do so well on iPod.

All praise the mighty Apple! 
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Rasmus_ö on 2006-02-24 05:05:25
It seems like (or sounds like) this whole bug is fixed in the new firmware. At least for some songs, on my ipod mini.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: sehested on 2006-02-24 06:58:07
Quote
It seems like (or sounds like) this whole bug is fixed in the new firmware. At least for some songs, on my ipod mini.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=366795")

Update 2006-01-10 has already been tested.

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=356372]iPod mini 2G still stutters[/url]

iPod nano still stutters (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=356375)

Only thing not yet tested is a iPod nano 1GB. It is reported (http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/reviews/comments/apple-computer-ipod-nano-2gb-4gb-ipod/) that the LCD display is slightly different than the component used in iPod nano 2/4GB. Now if the Portal Player firmware was updated as well this could mean a different performance. However this is pure speculation of my part and won't keep me sleepless at night.

I now have the iPod 5G and it plays back the files without problems.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-02-24 08:18:40
could you try mp3repacker?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=282289 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=32379&view=findpost&p=282289)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Rasmus_ö on 2006-02-24 21:49:21
Quote
Quote
It seems like (or sounds like) this whole bug is fixed in the new firmware. At least for some songs, on my ipod mini.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=366795")

Update 2006-01-10 has already been tested.

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=356372]iPod mini 2G still stutters[/url]

iPod nano still stutters (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33495&view=findpost&p=356375)

Only thing not yet tested is a iPod nano 1GB. It is reported (http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/reviews/comments/apple-computer-ipod-nano-2gb-4gb-ipod/) that the LCD display is slightly different than the component used in iPod nano 2/4GB. Now if the Portal Player firmware was updated as well this could mean a different performance. However this is pure speculation of my part and won't keep me sleepless at night.

I now have the iPod 5G and it plays back the files without problems.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366814"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I see. I suppose my lame encode of "Right Where it Belongs" is one of those that works after the patch.

I did not realise that the patch was that old. I got it now because I ran itunes for the first time in weeks (and incidently the last time ever, since the alarm works with Winamp 5.2. Good bye itunes )
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: JohanDeBock on 2006-03-28 01:17:34
I tested latest Rockbox CVS build for my Ipod Color: no skipping issues
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: NeoRenegade on 2006-03-28 01:38:05
Quote
Quote
...sounds better, works better ... smaller files.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=363316"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=363324"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
indeed. Good luck playing those AAC's on any other MP3 player, Brad.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kornchild2002 on 2006-03-28 04:11:43
Now, if you can't play nice then don't play at all.

Just kidding, bland comments like Brad's don't really deserve thoughtful comments.  Long live Lame mp3!

As far as skipping goes, Apple has "fixed" the problem with the 5G iPods.  I have a friend at work who just got in his 2GB iPod nano.  The strange thing is that the tracks that were problematic on my 4G are fine on his nano.  However, I played a track that has a significant spike (from 128kbps all the wat up to 320kbps) and his nano skipped while my 4G did not have any problems with this track.  I only remembered those two tracks though and I don't have my 4G (upgraded to a 5G) so I can only vouch for those two songs.

Oh, here are the songs; the first song had a problem on the 4G and did not have any problems on the nano while the second track didn't have any problems on the 4G yet skipped on the nano:
Ozzy Osbourne - See You On The Other Side
Judas Priest - Judas Rising

Just a side note, sehested is correct.  The 1GB nano's have a slightly dimmer screan than 2GB and 4GB nano's (and 5G iPods as well).  It is speculated that Apple is using a different LCD manufacturer to cut costs on the 1GB unit.  The strange thing is that no one has opened it up to check.  People have dissasembled 1GB nano's but have yet to check LCD manufacturers.  I am not about to destroy my test unit either, $100 down the drain if I break it.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2006-06-30 00:53:25
New firmware update fixes the stuttering

http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/ (http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/)
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2006-06-30 01:34:50
New firmware update fixes the stuttering

http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/ (http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/)


Except there is no update for the iPod Mini, just the iPod Video, Nano, and Shuffle.

Anyone test this on a Nano?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: grommet on 2006-06-30 02:12:40
New firmware update fixes the stuttering

http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/ (http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/)
Hell has indeed frozen over.    I've confirmed that it really does fix the stuttering cases with my LAME VBR content on my iPod nano.  All my test cases, created using 3.97B2, play perfectly now.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-06-30 03:21:05
New firmware update fixes the stuttering

apple rocks
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Jojo on 2006-06-30 03:55:56

New firmware update fixes the stuttering

apple rocks

I see how to make customers happy. First, break something...then after a loooong time finally fix it and all of a sudden people are all over you
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Halcyon on 2006-06-30 07:57:33
Slightly OT, but can anybody confirm that the same stuttering happening on other iPods has been fixed as well?
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Turok on 2006-07-23 22:58:01
Okay, great for nano users, but Apple should fix it for mini users, too. Very poor Apple, very poor.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Subaru on 2007-05-03 14:44:19
I saw this topic on google and I just brought a 30GB video ipod last night and I woke up this morning to hearing my ipod shuddering while playing.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Busemann on 2007-05-03 16:03:18
I saw this topic on google and I just brought a 30GB video ipod last night and I woke up this morning to hearing my ipod shuddering while playing.


Update it to the latest version of the firmware. They fixed it for all models quite some time ago.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kornchild2002 on 2007-05-03 17:42:44
I saw this topic on google and I just brought a 30GB video ipod last night and I woke up this morning to hearing my ipod shuddering while playing.


If you just purchased it then you shouldn't be having this problem.  The 5G iPod line never had the stutter issues when playing Lame VBR mp3's and Apple fixed the firmware for other players.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: darky on 2007-05-03 20:43:34
I've got an iPod 5G 30GB and it doesn't stutter with any lame created mp3s either so I can second that.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Subaru on 2007-05-03 22:17:40

I saw this topic on google and I just brought a 30GB video ipod last night and I woke up this morning to hearing my ipod shuddering while playing.


Update it to the latest version of the firmware. They fixed it for all models quite some time ago.



I think it is already at the current firmware.. I just brought the ipod from the Apple store last night... the software version in itunes reports 1.2.1


I did play a full cd on the ipod and it did not do anything odd again.. but I will play it again in full tonight to see if it happens again.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: aggybong on 2007-05-25 08:20:43
Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be fixed on the 5.5G iPod Videos...only instead of stuttering, the iPod stops playing for about 20 seconds before moving to the next track. It always happens in the same spot in the affected songs, with the only solution being encoding the song at a lower bitrate  I'm using the newest iTunes and have the latest 5.5G firmware.

There are two songs that I know are borked:

Infected Mushroom - Vicious Delicious @ -v0 & -v1
Smashing Pumpkins - Tarantula @ -v0 & -v2

Kind of a bummer, especially when -v2 won't even work.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kornchild2002 on 2007-05-25 08:40:42
Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be fixed on the 5.5G iPod Videos...only instead of stuttering, the iPod stops playing for about 20 seconds before moving to the next track. It always happens in the same spot in the affected songs, with the only solution being encoding the song at a lower bitrate  I'm using the newest iTunes and have the latest 5.5G firmware.

There are two songs that I know are borked:

Infected Mushroom - Vicious Delicious @ -v0 & -v2
Smashing Pumpkins - Tarantula @ -v0 & -v2

Kind of a bummer, especially when -v2 won't even work.


There is a problem with your iPod, not with Apple's firmware.  Believe me, the stutter problem has been fixed for quite some time.  Try restoring your iPod using the latest version of iTunes.  If that doesn't work, then try re-encoding the songs.  If you used EAC+Lame before then try dbpoweramp R12 in secure mode (it is supposed to be just as good as EAC).

Edit: grammar
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: aggybong on 2007-05-25 19:39:30
I've already done a restore on the iPod and it didn't do anything. Why is it only certain songs (in the exact same spot, every time) using certain presets? And I made a mistake, for Vicious Delicious, it's v0 and v1, v2 works fine. I dunno, it just doesn't seem like it's my particular iPod.

It's not the source material, either. I'm currently using the command line to convert the .FLAC files into different bitrates.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: Subaru on 2007-05-26 05:54:10
So far I have not heard it come back yet.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kornchild2002 on 2007-05-26 06:22:45
I've already done a restore on the iPod and it didn't do anything. Why is it only certain songs (in the exact same spot, every time) using certain presets? And I made a mistake, for Vicious Delicious, it's v0 and v1, v2 works fine. I dunno, it just doesn't seem like it's my particular iPod.

It's not the source material, either. I'm currently using the command line to convert the .FLAC files into different bitrates.


There is just something wrong as this problem is long gone, it never existed with the 5G iPods nor the 5.5G iPods.  I would try using a different program (which uses Lame) to convert the FLAC files at the -V 0 or -V 2.  For instance, you can use dbpoweramp R12 which uses the final version of Lame 3.97.
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: aggybong on 2007-05-27 06:06:00

I've already done a restore on the iPod and it didn't do anything. Why is it only certain songs (in the exact same spot, every time) using certain presets? And I made a mistake, for Vicious Delicious, it's v0 and v1, v2 works fine. I dunno, it just doesn't seem like it's my particular iPod.

It's not the source material, either. I'm currently using the command line to convert the .FLAC files into different bitrates.


There is just something wrong as this problem is long gone, it never existed with the 5G iPods nor the 5.5G iPods.  I would try using a different program (which uses Lame) to convert the FLAC files at the -V 0 or -V 2.  For instance, you can use dbpoweramp R12 which uses the final version of Lame 3.97.


Tried completely different programs and the problem is still there
Title: iPod mini 2G stutters when playing LAME aps
Post by: kornchild2002 on 2007-05-27 06:39:08
Tried completely different programs and the problem is still there


It is your iPod then.  Apple has fixed this problem and it was never existent in the 5G/5.5G iPods so I imagine there is something wrong with your iPod hardware wise.