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Topic: Replaygain or not to replaygain? (Read 32551 times) previous topic - next topic
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Replaygain or not to replaygain?

I rip everything to FLAC and I have a mix of very quiet and ear-shattering tracks. Since I play on shuffle, if an ear-shattering track came on at high volume I'd have to give up the music hobby - would replaygain keep the continuous tracks at the same volume (e.g. The Wall)? If it can, and it'll also hopefully make all my music at a comfortable level, that'd be awesome
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #1 –
The answer is yes. And, since the only thing it does to your flac files is adding a few tags, you can try it yourself without getting into trouble

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Patsoe on
The answer is yes. And, since the only thing it does to your flac files is adding a few tags, you can try it yourself without getting into trouble

Yay! I'll report back with results. I'd have to use album replaygain, right?
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #3 –
No, I don't think so.

If you search replaygain on google, you'll find the hydrogenaudio wiki page among the first hits. That should explain it.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #4 –
Depends on what you want.

Album mode adjusts all the tracks by the same amount so that the loudest part of the loudest track has a level of 89dB and the relative levels between all of the tracks stay the same.  In track mode, all the tracks are adjusted so that the loudest part is 89dB.

If you're shuffling songs bust still want to keep tracks that are softer than the others in the context of an album soft, I'd go with album mode.

EDIT (after ...Just Elliott's post #6):
If you want those soft album tracks to have the same peak level as all the rest of the tracks, go with track mode.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #5 –
I did Album gain and it worked PERFECTLY! Thanks everyone for your help!

I might have to adjust it to set the base a bit louder... or I could turn the volume up on my headphones

Edit: Hmm, how DO you change the base level of replaygain? I could have sworn there was a preferences screen...
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #6 –
In windows I use foobar2000 as player, not use preamp for RG'ed files in it's settings but use K(ernel) S(treaming) output - foobar plays directly to soundcard not using windows mixer and setting of PCM volume. And for windows' sounds I set this volume to ~50% (Master volume = 100%). Now actual volume of sound I change only at output amplifier. So I have no data loss from clipping (for lossy codecs pick value often can be > 1, sometimes 1.5 and above). In linux my player is MPD, it also can set preamp value, but now it's set to 0 dB (anyway I turned off system sounds).
My main aim - the best sound w/o clipping, so I have preamp = 0 dB, but you just can set it in your player to +6..+10 dB to have loud sound.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: greynol on
EDIT (after ...Just Elliott's post #6):
If you want those soft album tracks to have the same peak level as all the rest of the tracks, go with track mode.

I meant that every track was "normalized" to a bit lower than would be nice. I seem to remember there was an easy way to change the "base".
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: ...Just Elliott on
I meant that every track was "normalized" to a bit lower than would be nice. I seem to remember there was an easy way to change the "base".

Just change the value in the Target "Normal" Volume box to the level you prefer. I have changed this setting to 92 dB, which suits me best.

Cheers!

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: arpeggio on
Quote from: ...Just Elliott on

I meant that every track was "normalized" to a bit lower than would be nice. I seem to remember there was an easy way to change the "base".

Just change the value in the Target "Normal" Volume box to the level you prefer. I have changed this setting to 92 dB, which suits me best.

Cheers!

Is this somewhere in Preferences? Because I can't find it.

Please excuse my n00bness
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #10 –
It's in the main window, just below the Add File and Ad Folder buttons.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #11 –


Umm..?
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #12 –
Sorry ... I was pointing at MP3Gain application, not at Foobar.

In Foobar2000 you have to rightclick the selected tracks, select Replaygain and apply the option you want. First do a replaygain scan and if you want to change the play back level, you can manually edit the track gain afterwards.

edit:
Note that Foobar reports the correction value for track gain that will result in play back level at 89.0 dB. Hence it will show a negative value. If you want to increase the playback level then you have to decrease this value.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: ...Just Elliott on
I meant that every track was "normalized" to a bit lower than would be nice. I seem to remember there was an easy way to change the "base".

Go to the Preferences -> Playback page and setup the Preamp setting.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #14 –
arpeggio: MP3Gain doesn't do much for flac files

just elliot: You could boost the volume by digitally preamping it (I'm sure foobar has a module for that), but note that this might remove some dynamic range from the recordings, since they'd have to be compressed to avoid digital clipping. The original specification used a 83dB reference level, so the current 89dB is already quite a boost. You may be better off just turning the volume knob up

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #15 –
Just go to Foobar2k, preferences, playback.

On that screen, there's "Replay gain, pre-amp"

Set it as you want. If it's too high, you'll get clipping.

If you tick the "use peak info to scale down tracks that still clip after applying ReplayGain" box you won't get clipping, because the pre-amp setting will be over ridden on a per-song basis to ensure that each song doesn't clip.

If you abuse this (e.g. +12dB pre-amp, no clipping), then almost all songs will end up being peak normalised, and won't sound the same loudness as each other.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Patsoe on
arpeggio: MP3Gain doesn't do much for flac files

just elliot: You could boost the volume by digitally preamping it (I'm sure foobar has a module for that), but note that this might remove some dynamic range from the recordings, since they'd have to be compressed to avoid digital clipping. The original specification used a 83dB reference level, so the current 89dB is already quite a boost. You may be better off just turning the volume knob up

No, if you apply preamp too aggresively, the files will clip. If you switch clipping prevention on, they will be amplified to the maximum volume possible without clipping.

If you turn the advanced limiter on, then it might compress the tracks, but just the loud bits.

edit: added "too aggresively"

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: kjoonlee on
Quote from: Patsoe on

arpeggio: MP3Gain doesn't do much for flac files

just elliot: You could boost the volume by digitally preamping it (I'm sure foobar has a module for that), but note that this might remove some dynamic range from the recordings, since they'd have to be compressed to avoid digital clipping. The original specification used a 83dB reference level, so the current 89dB is already quite a boost. You may be better off just turning the volume knob up

No, if you apply preamp too aggresively, the files will clip. If you switch clipping prevention on, they will be amplified to the maximum volume possible without clipping.

If you turn the advanced limiter on, then it might compress the tracks, but just the loud bits.

edit: added "too aggresively"

I set it to +3.5dB (92.5dB) but I'm worried about clipping as well as another problem - doesn't this just amplify the RG output? And if so, wouldn't I get better results if I just made the RG values, well, louder? I'm just confused
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #18 –
Manually editing the RG values means you're changing the measured loudness of the tracks. This is not what you want.

Keeping the values unchanged makes sense because the values are measured against a common target volume.

You want the RG values to use a common target volume; if all the files use different targets, it will be impossible to achieve equal loudness with RG.

edit: This doesn't look very logical as a whole, but the individual statements are meant to make sense.

---

If you think all the songs are too loud or too quiet, you can adjust the preamp.

---

If one song is too loud or too quiet, you can edit the RG value of that song to change the measured volume.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #19 –
Since RG is a standard, I strongly suggest not to change the base value of 89 dB. It is a standard after all.

Better use pre-amp.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #20 –
Oh, okay then, I'll use preamp - one thing: in foobar, the preamp doesn't seem to affect the spectrum analyzer, so currently the analyzer is very low most of the time. Is there a way around this?
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #21 –
Let me see if I got this straight:

Im only discussing the 'audiophile' replaygain mind you, im not interested in the others.  So, from now on please assume replaygaining all files to 0dB (i.e. the loudest peak of the album will be at 0dB, the rest of the peaks will be below that)

- Replaygain will never introduce clipping (and then limit) a file, so no peaks will be hurt in the use of..
- Replaygain will also never result in a LOWER volume then the current file volume, since we're not doing that RMS trick.
- Essentially RG will scan the entire album, find the highest peak, calculate the volume increase to get that peak to 0dB, and then apply that volume increase to all other tracks as well.

My question is this:

Will the resampling that needs to be applied to all tracks not hurt the overall quality of the album more than the often slight improvement of overall volume?

And as a result:

Would it not be very cool to not replaygain albums if they are already within (say) 4dB of maximum anyway? That way SERIOUSLY under-volumed albums will be replaygained, but albums that are already pretty decent will not be hurt by hardly noticable (volume-wise) replaygaining?

Or am I missing some structural point here?

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: greynol on
Album mode adjusts all the tracks by the same amount so that the loudest part of the loudest track has a level of 89dB and the relative levels between all of the tracks stay the same.  In track mode, all the tracks are adjusted so that the loudest part is 89dB.
Not trying to be a nitpicker, but is that an accurate statement?  I know you weren't trying to mislead the original poster and there are times when I don't always describe things using the right words, but what you said sounds like peak normalization to me, which is the whole reason Replay Gain was invented - to offer a better solution to peak normalizing.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: puntloos on
Or am I missing some structural point here?

You've just reinvented peak normalization - edit: except it's being done on an album basis. Not very effective.


Quote from: AnEnigma66 on
Quote from: greynol on
Album mode adjusts all the tracks by the same amount so that the loudest part of the loudest track has a level of 89dB and the relative levels between all of the tracks stay the same.  In track mode, all the tracks are adjusted so that the loudest part is 89dB.
Not trying to be a nitpicker, but is that an accurate statement?  I know you weren't trying to mislead the original poster and there are times when I don't always describe things using the right words, but what you said sounds like peak normalization to me, which is the whole reason Replay Gain was invented - to offer a better solution to peak normalizing.

It doesn't look like peak normalization to me, but I agree it looks weird.

Replaygain or not to replaygain?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: kjoonlee on
It doesn't look like peak normalization to me, but I agree it looks weird.
I'm guilty of exactly what I accused him of - not using the right words to describe a situation.

There's no argument on my part that album mode adjusts all the tracks by the same amount or that the relative levels between the tracks stay the same as a result of album mode processing.

What I think was incorrect was saying that "Album mode adjusts all the tracks by the same amount so that the loudest part of the loudest track has a level of 89dB", and "In track mode, all the tracks are adjusted so that the loudest part is 89dB."  That's what sounds like peak normalizing to me.